Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net

donate to eham
   Home   Help Search  
Pages: Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 Next   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Time to dump the phonetics  (Read 42689 times)
KD0REQ
Member

Posts: 2017




Ignore
« Reply #90 on: August 13, 2015, 10:14:56 AM »

all us old phartes have some hearing issues.  so if you're asked for phonetics, hey, use 'em.  it only takes a few more minutes in CW
Logged
DRBEN
Member

Posts: 318




Ignore
« Reply #91 on: August 13, 2015, 11:55:17 AM »

For a very detailed history of the use of so-called phonetic alphabets, see:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet

The current version (first introduced in 1958) has been adopted by ICAO, NATO, ITU, IARU, IMO, FAA, ATIS, and ARRL.

It is clear that since the 1920's, the usefulness of such an alphabet has been recognized.

Although a very widely, internationally, accepted standard has been available for over 50 years, many amateur radio operators refuse to use it or substitute other names for some (or all letters). Many are still using the names used by the U.S. military from 1941-1956.

Many hams use "homemade" letter names that they think or better or cuter, ignoring that the objective is understanding, not cleverness.

Some hams use the letter names for the suffix but not for the prefix. Others don't use them at all or say them so fast that it is difficult to understand.

If you want to be understood, use the standardized letter names and speak them clearly and slowly. In a contact between operators who already know each other, it is relatively unimportant whether or not a callsign is given with great clarity. In other situations it may be the only way to properly identify the station.

Some operators seem to go out of their way to avoid letter names. I frequently hear DX contacts where one of the parties is having a hard time copying the other party's callsign. Sometimes, a say again request is made three or four times and each time the call is given in the ordinary manner, often rapidly and not very distinctly. If the operator had used phonetic letter names after the first say again request, he or she would not have had to repeat the callsign several more times.

FCC Part 97 rules for the amateur radio service says the following about station identification:

§97.119(b)(2)
Use of a phonetic alphabet as an aid for correct station identification is encouraged.

The logical choice of which one is obvious: the one currently in common use, i.e., the ITU/NATO/ICAO alphabet.









Logged
W9BB
Member

Posts: 1375




Ignore
« Reply #92 on: August 13, 2015, 05:30:15 PM »

DOesn't matter much to me if some nit wit wants to use goofy phonetics and end up NOT IN THE LOG because someone transcribed what the are not use to, incorrectly.  Standardized phonetics work very well on the bands especially for our DX friends that speak little English (and we speak none of theirs), at least, Alpha is Alpha to both sides and easy to understand.

I will continue to use standard phonetics, on the rare occassion I use SSB.  One reason I love CW.  Clean, more signals in less bandwidth, easy to copy callsigns at any speed, and no goofiness in trying to decipher a cryptic phonetic given from the other side.
Logged
K7KBN
Member

Posts: 3473




Ignore
« Reply #93 on: August 13, 2015, 10:14:31 PM »

A – as in Aeolian
 B – as in Bdellium
 C – as in Czar
 D – as in Djibouti
 E – as in Eight
 F – as in Philly
 G – as in Gnat
 H – as in Heir
 I – as in One
 J – as in Jalapeño
 K – as in Knick-knack
 L – as in Fifty – or as in llama
 M – as in Mnemonic
 N – as in Nguyen
 O – as in Oedipus
 P – as in Psychosis
 Q – as in Quran
 R – as in Are
 S – as in Sea
 T – as in Tsar
 U – as in Uighur
 V – as in Five
 W – as in Write
 X – as in Xylophone
 Y – as in Yttrium
 Z – as in Zwieback
Logged

73
Pat K7KBN
CWO4 USNR Ret.
G3RZP
Member

Posts: 8123




Ignore
« Reply #94 on: August 14, 2015, 12:28:31 AM »

Quote
Standardized phonetics work very well on the bands especially for our DX friends that speak little English (and we speak none of theirs), at least, Alpha is Alpha to both sides and easy to understand.

Except when signals are very weak and the 'standard' phonetics have no syllabic redundancy and are low in 'speech power'. Like 'sierra'.
Logged
DRBEN
Member

Posts: 318




Ignore
« Reply #95 on: August 14, 2015, 09:47:00 AM »

Except when signals are very weak and the 'standard' phonetics have no syllabic redundancy and are low in 'speech power'. Like 'sierra'.

No system is perfect. The current phonetic alphabet works very well in MOST circumstances. Obviously there are limits.

Readability

1--Unreadable.
2--Barely readable, occasional words distinguishable.
3--Readable with considerable difficulty.
4--Readable with practically no difficulty.
5--Perfectly readable.

R1 Don't waste your time; find someone else to contact; phonetics not helpful here.
R2 Phonetics may help, but the going will be rough no matter how you try to identify your station.

R3 and
R4 A common phonetic alphabet can be very useful when a callsign is difficult to copy or a particular word is not being
     correctly copied.

R5 Even here, there a times, because of language differences or accents, when a phonetic callsign or spelling of a
     hard to understand word will save the day.
Logged
G3RZP
Member

Posts: 8123




Ignore
« Reply #96 on: August 14, 2015, 10:00:58 AM »

The  problem tends to be worse when working very weak signal SSB on VHF/UHF: adding syllabic redundancy with longer words then helps. Like adding FEC to digital signals.

Which was the advantage of the pre WW2 Amsterdam-Baltimore-Casablanca  international alphabet.
Logged
W9BB
Member

Posts: 1375




Ignore
« Reply #97 on: August 14, 2015, 11:13:27 AM »

Quote
Standardized phonetics work very well on the bands especially for our DX friends that speak little English (and we speak none of theirs), at least, Alpha is Alpha to both sides and easy to understand.

Except when signals are very weak and the 'standard' phonetics have no syllabic redundancy and are low in 'speech power'. Like 'sierra'.

That is when CW rules..and why most folks use it in DXing..if signals are that weak, many wouldn't bother on SSB trying to dig something out that is nearly ESP
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 05:01:47 PM by NW9R » Logged
WA2ISE
Member

Posts: 1050




Ignore
« Reply #98 on: August 14, 2015, 01:31:57 PM »

Some really bad phonetic selections:  Grin (modified from an above post)

 C – as in Czar    Grin
 
 F – as in Philly   Grin
 G – as in Gnat   Grin
 H – as in Heir    Grin   or "herb"

 J – as in Jalapeño    Sounds like "H"    Grin  Or "Jose"...
 K – as in Knife   Grin  I changed this one

 M – as in Mnemonic
 N – as in Nguyen

 P – as in Psychosis    Grin  Grin
 Q – as in Qatar    Grin
 
 S – as in Sea
 T – as in Tsar   Grin
 U – as in Uighur


 X – as in Xylophone   Grin

 Z – as in Zwieback     Grin
Logged
G3RZP
Member

Posts: 8123




Ignore
« Reply #99 on: August 14, 2015, 02:46:10 PM »

Naw - you cannot beat 'Xanthippe' for X!

For which, you need to know ancient Greek history, who Xanthippe was and how her name was correctly pronounced.....

Not, I submit, the best choice, even though there is the necessary syllabic redundancy!

Quote
That is when CW rules..and why most folks use it in DXing..if signals are that weak, many would bother on SSB trying to dig something out that is nearly ESP

That is where the enormous difference appears to exist - maybe not so much now - between the US and Europe. Most EU DXers seem to believe  that a key is something to open the door with -  although  now with JT65  and so on, the idea of actually having to strain to read a signal has gone - why put effort into operating when the computer can do it better?

But in the older days, when the going got rough on VHF/UHF, US hams would easily drop back into using CW - I saw this happening when operating in a June VHF QSO party from Maine in the early part of this century. In Europe, there MIGHT be a few who could read CW.......with difficulty.

I sometimes think that amateur radio is going down a road where the computers talk to each other and don't actually need the humans.......
Logged
K7KBN
Member

Posts: 3473




Ignore
« Reply #100 on: August 14, 2015, 07:28:19 PM »

Xanthippe - a blond hippie?  And if she gained weight, a blond hippo (keeping the Greek root)...

The reason Socrates spent so much time reasoning and arguing with Plato?
Logged

73
Pat K7KBN
CWO4 USNR Ret.
G3RZP
Member

Posts: 8123




Ignore
« Reply #101 on: August 15, 2015, 12:01:46 AM »

Exactly, Pat!
Logged
K7KBN
Member

Posts: 3473




Ignore
« Reply #102 on: August 15, 2015, 02:06:53 PM »

I missed the obvious straight line I gave myself -- wondering if those Greek roots might not have been naturally blond -- but I didn't want to split hairs.
Logged

73
Pat K7KBN
CWO4 USNR Ret.
K6CPO
Member

Posts: 398




Ignore
« Reply #103 on: August 17, 2015, 12:46:37 PM »

I give you new phonetics, drawn from the periodic table of elements:

Actinium
Bohrium
Curium
Dubnium
Erbium
Fermium
Gadolinium
Holminium
Iridium

Krypton
Lutetium
Magnesium
Neptunium
Osmium
Promethium

Ruthenium
Strontium
Terbinium
Unuseptium
Vanadiam
Yttrium
Zirconium

There are no elements that start with the letters "J" or "Q" so feel free to make up your own.
Logged
KE0EFX
Member

Posts: 42




Ignore
« Reply #104 on: August 17, 2015, 01:18:03 PM »

I give you new phonetics, drawn from the periodic table of elements:

Actinium
Bohrium
Curium
Dubnium
Erbium
Fermium
Gadolinium
Holminium
Iridium

Krypton
Lutetium
Magnesium
Neptunium
Osmium
Promethium

Ruthenium
Strontium
Terbinium
Unuseptium
Vanadiam
Yttrium
Zirconium

There are no elements that start with the letters "J" or "Q" so feel free to make up your own.

I think you overlooked Xenon..
Logged
Pages: Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 Next   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!