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Author Topic: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.  (Read 20861 times)
AA4GA
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« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2013, 08:21:06 PM »

Hey Dan - congrats on the win...I'm not familiar with that CQ program, so I'll have to look it up.

Sorry I missed out on all the fireworks so far, but am glad to see that the point was made that QRP has nothing to do with antennas.  Nothing. 

Do a lot of folks who run QRP also run inefficient antennas and take pride from their accomplishments with those antennas?  Yes, and rightly so.

But no one should ever be made to feel bad because they're a QRPer running a big antenna. 

I also think that a lot of folks think that the gain from those super antennas provides a greater advantage than is really the case.  It's a pretty rare HF Yagi that gives more than about 6dBd or so gain.  K8CC said one time something to the effect of "Once you put up a tribander, you're most likely within 6 dB of the maximum gain no matter what else you put up".  RX directivity and angle of radiation are at least as important as gain for most antenna installations.  You get a lower angle of radiation from antenna height - should we say the QRPers who put up dipoles at 100' aren't playing fair compared to those with dipoles at 30'?

I've worked almost all areas of the world with 5 Watts and an 80m doublet up about 45', I'm missing 4 or 5 CQ Zones...I'm sure they'll come with the right propagation one day - QRP with small-ish antennas works.  Large DXCC totals come from patience - the flea-powered stations are capable of completing the path, it's just whether or not one can make it through the competition. 

And, I'm aware that many, if not most, hams (especially QRPers) are just happy with the achievement and aren't looking for wallpaper or recognition.  But, some are, and no problem with that either.

Isn't it about time for "Zenki" to come in here and complain that 5 Watts should not be the measure of QRP...
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ZENKI
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« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2013, 06:46:12 PM »

Well I will stop complaining about 5 watts of output power when the wider QRP community acknowledges  the effectiveness and gain of the receiving stations antennas.
Taking all the credit for making a 5 watts SSB QSO and failing to state what the receiving stations antenna was  is not a very ethical practice.
I dont see many QRP stations bragging about how they  contacted another QRP station running 5 watts and a attic dipole or hamstick clipped to the house guttering.

The rules of physics cant be  bent and you guys with your one  way QRP super station mentality are really misleading a lot of people.

I will repeat nobody said that it cant be done, there are hams doing it every day  through pot luck  and the great receiving stations and antennas  rather than the effectiveness of 5 watts and poor antennas.

SO the  facts still remain 5 watts is good CW power and 20 to 30 watts is the equivalent effective SSB QRP power that allows routine effective communications even with stations using  average antennas. You tube is full of videos of this misleading brag  rights  like "100mw contact with K3LR" Do they  ever  acknowledge the massive antenna gain factor  from stacked yagis that allows K3LR  to pick their callsigns out of a pileup  on the first call? No they dont. Its easy being a legend in your own mind on your own island.

I am not anti QRP like you think. I do a lot of operating with my QRP radios. My favorite and most effective radio is my HF manpack with 20 watts of output power. If I could do it in  an effective manner on SSB with 5 watts I would certainly know about it and also be so excited about it. I know reality is different and more power like 20 watts make the whole experience more exciting and rewarding. If I wanted to  beat my head against  brick wall in a consistent manner I would use 5 watts. With 20 watts I can almost guarantee a 99% success rate and who would argue with that success rate!

WOW and even a calibrated S-meter. Wheres the 10,000  radio apologists now who constantly whine that calibrating a S-meter on an expensive radio is so hard?
Palstar has already put these expensive radios to shame on 2 fronts. Great achievements from Palstar.



Hey Dan - congrats on the win...I'm not familiar with that CQ program, so I'll have to look it up.

Sorry I missed out on all the fireworks so far, but am glad to see that the point was made that QRP has nothing to do with antennas.  Nothing.  

Do a lot of folks who run QRP also run inefficient antennas and take pride from their accomplishments with those antennas?  Yes, and rightly so.

But no one should ever be made to feel bad because they're a QRPer running a big antenna.  

I also think that a lot of folks think that the gain from those super antennas provides a greater advantage than is really the case.  It's a pretty rare HF Yagi that gives more than about 6dBd or so gain.  K8CC said one time something to the effect of "Once you put up a tribander, you're most likely within 6 dB of the maximum gain no matter what else you put up".  RX directivity and angle of radiation are at least as important as gain for most antenna installations.  You get a lower angle of radiation from antenna height - should we say the QRPers who put up dipoles at 100' aren't playing fair compared to those with dipoles at 30'?

I've worked almost all areas of the world with 5 Watts and an 80m doublet up about 45', I'm missing 4 or 5 CQ Zones...I'm sure they'll come with the right propagation one day - QRP with small-ish antennas works.  Large DXCC totals come from patience - the flea-powered stations are capable of completing the path, it's just whether or not one can make it through the competition.  

And, I'm aware that many, if not most, hams (especially QRPers) are just happy with the achievement and aren't looking for wallpaper or recognition.  But, some are, and no problem with that either.

Isn't it about time for "Zenki" to come in here and complain that 5 Watts should not be the measure of QRP...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 07:40:37 PM by ZENKI » Logged
W7ASA
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« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2013, 05:29:08 PM »

Right on time.   Roll Eyes
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WA2TPU
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« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2013, 06:53:51 PM »

Indeed!
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AD6KA
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« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2013, 10:22:27 AM »

Well I will stop complaining about 5 watts of output power when the wider QRP community acknowledges  the effectiveness and gain of the receiving stations antennas.

Taking all the credit for making a 5 watts SSB QSO and failing to state what the receiving stations antenna was  is not a very ethical practice.

I dint see many QRP stations bragging about how they  contacted another QRP station running 5 watts and a attic dipole or hamstick clipped to the house guttering.

I agree.Come on you guys, (QRP'ers, of which I dabble in)
stop taking yourselves so damn seriously.
Like that you are "better" than ops running 100w or more.

And don't you get sick of the "I worked the XXXX DXpedition
with my FT-817, powered by 4 hearing aid batteries, and a Buddy
Pole"
  stories?  Roll Eyes I know I do. You know why?:
Sometimes the Propagation Gods just smile on you.

It doesn't mean you are a "QRP Badass",
it means you GOT LUCKY!!


SOME QRP Operations take REAL SKILLLS:,
Like the CW QRP Ops who build their Own Rigs,
build their Own Antennas

then take them out in the woods.......

"SECOND RATE TREATMENT?"
WAHHHHHHHHHHH! Mommy, mommy,
these guys are picking on me!

Grow up. It's only a hobby!
73,Ken   AD6KA
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N3HFS
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Posts: 212




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« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2013, 11:46:08 AM »

I couldn't bring myself to read this entire thread.

Voluntarily operating QRP is nothing more than a challenge; "How effective can I be at communicating while using a limited amount of output power?"

If you happen to find this controversial, poor practice, annoying, or whatever, then just go and find your own challenges.  I guarantee that someone could find a way to criticize and minimize your achievements!

I almost expect to go to philatelist forums to find stamp collectors that are really pissed at others who collect official "Return to Sender" markings because they're somehow not stamps.

Unfortunately, this entire forum system is so infested with naysayers, better-than-thou's, and bloviated opinionators that reading through such tripe simply makes one feel filthy.  I'll assume that some of these posters' end goal is to make everyone else go away so that they can "win."
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NU4B
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« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2013, 01:38:33 PM »

Quote
I agree.Come on you guys, (QRP'ers, of which I dabble in)
stop taking yourselves so damn seriously.
Like that you are "better" than ops running 100w or more.

I don't remember anybody saying they were better than 100 watt ops - other than you. I will bet that any DXer or contester that operates strictly QRP for a year or two will be a better Dxer/contester when they return to their original power level.

Quote
And don't you get sick of the "I worked the XXXX DXpedition
with my FT-817, powered by 4 hearing aid batteries, and a Buddy
Pole"  stories?  Roll Eyes I know I do. You know why?:
Sometimes the Propagation Gods  just smile on you.

It doesn't mean you are a "QRP Badass",
it means you GOT LUCKY!!

Lucky? Really? I do enjoy hearing these stories. In fact I bet most serious DXers, no matter what their power level, love to tell their "war" stories. Any Dxer, no matter what the power level, will tell you knowledge of propagation (the more knowledge the better) is integral to successful DXing. You should read "The Complete DXer" by W9KNI. See if you can find any reference to propagation. Do you know why the propagation gods smiled? Because somebody knows what he's doing and is not a complete DX dunce. This may come as a shock to you, but all DXers (whatever the power level) use propagation to their benefit. Propagation gods smile when you use them to your benefit  Grin. They frown when you don't  Angry.

Quote
SOME QRP Operations take REAL SKILLLS:,  
Like the CW QRP Ops who build their Own Rigs,
build their Own Antennas
then take them out in the woods.......

.... and what? what's the point?



Quote
"SECOND RATE TREATMENT?"
WAHHHHHHHHHHH! Mommy, mommy,
these guys are picking on me!
Grow up. It's only a hobby!

Technically its the Amateur Radio Service. A bit more serious than a hobby. In any case, DXing is a hobby within the service. As I have been involved at different times in different hobbies and amateur sports - people do take their hobbies seriously within the world of that particular hobby. There are very serious stamp collectors, coin collectors, etc... (and some very serious DXers). When you get in a pick up game of basketball, or volleyball, or whatever you play to win. When I enter a racquetball tournament its an amateur event, but there are people that keep score and they give out trophies to those that win their division. I play for fun... but I'm playing to win - just like everybody else out there. And if somebody feels like they got screwed because of a bad call, it hurts. Its human nature - I hope you can figure that out.

CQ runs the DX Marathon and set up two divisions within the Formula Class. Dan, WG5G, entered and won the QRP division and was basically snubbed in the write up in CQ Magazine, which was the basis for the post.

Since this is a QRP forum, a place where you can write about just about any topic about QRP operation, this is an appropriate place to talk about it. (I know if I brought up the subject with my mother, she wouldn't have a clue as to what I was talking about. Grin) Its kind of like a bad call in an amateur sports tournament. The people you are naturally going to talk to about it are your buddies who you play sports with. Its not about running to your mother. Its a fairly east concept to follow especially if you have contact with other humans.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 01:44:11 PM by NU4B » Logged
W7ASA
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Posts: 238




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« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2013, 07:56:10 PM »

Wow, Franz!  

Your quote:

"... this entire forum system is so infested with naysayers, better-than-thou's, and bloviated opinionators that reading through such tripe..."

That is some excellent word smithing! Even better, it's quite true and I now have a wonderful word to use, especially where politicians are involved: "bloviated". Moo-ha-ha-ha, how deliciously descriptive.  


73 de Ray
W7ASA ..._ ._



 
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ZENKI
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« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2013, 01:51:47 AM »

The objective of the exercise  is getting the message through or communicating. Its not about making life impossible by banging your head against the laws of physics.

Many QRP operators simply dont want to acknowledge the fact that modes like CW and PSK have a huge SNR advantage over SSB when using low power.  Some of the ridiculous arguments against higher power
for QRP SSB is the assumption that SSB is just as effective as the other low power modes. This line of argument is technically incorrect.  

QRP CW and PSK operators can rest on their laurels that what they are doing is correct and achieving QSO's is technically possible with the low power. On SSB its different. and the correct way to over come this handicap of a wide bandwidth mode is to increase the power. You reduce the bandwidth by half and you increase the signal to noise ration by 10db+-. Thats just the laws of physics.

I cant really understand why QRP operators see this an attack on their chosen operating mode. Its really an argument for making  QRP operation on SSB more realistic and a more  dependable mode like CW, PSK and other weak signal modes. Again just nominating some  arbitrary output power because contest rules say so and without applying a weighting factor for mode is not a good way  of making things fair. You can clearly see this in the QRP contest scores, typical CW  QSO rates are almost double those on SSB which is no surprise.

The bottom line is that the low power SSB QRP output power should be set to make communications realistic and effective without relying too much on stations with exceptional low noise QTH's and spectacular antennas. With a power output of 20 to 25 watts on SSB, reliable QSO quality communications can be had with a wide number of ham stations with  every possible antenna system. On SSB this power level will match the SNR  advantage of a mode like CW. Its really  very simple and there is no reason to see these arguments as an attack on the QRP philosophy, its about restoring balance and technical fairness.

If manufacturers used 25 watts as the target power for the low power QRP radios  more people would enjoy portable and QRP operation. At the end of day you can always reduce your power to whatever level you want. Just being stubborn and bloody minded about some power reference that was set by a  contest committee and not technical experts is  ridiculous. QRP contest rules regarding QRP power levels on  SSB be changed to more correctly reflect the effectiveness of the mode on low power.  Rather than going on the attack and  and having a siege mentality about this being an attack on QRP,  you better off prosecuting your case for a arbitary power level like 5 watts on SSB in a technical manner. Since it seems many QRP operators dont understand this issue from a technical perspective i will leave it at that.

Another thing I will finally say is that a radio like the new Ten Tec  Argonaut 6 which has a  very good receiver for most operators would have been an excellent radio with a SSB power output of 25 watts. Many operators who know what a challenge 5 watt SSB is would have tried  QRP operation with 25 watts.  They also would have been more attracted to the radio because you did not need the messiness  and inconveniences of  an external 50 or 100 watt amplifier. 25 watts is all you need

« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 01:55:35 AM by ZENKI » Logged
AA4GA
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« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2013, 07:11:45 AM »

Right on time.   Roll Eyes
Yeah, but it took bait!  ;-)
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AA4GA
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« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2013, 07:17:40 AM »

I dont see many QRP stations bragging about how they  contacted another QRP station running 5 watts and a attic dipole or hamstick clipped to the house guttering.
Then you are obviously out of touch.  Most of the QRPers I know are trying to work other QRPers...with similar poor antennas!  It happens all the time.  That's why they gather on the QRP "watering hole" frequencies.  That's why there are such spotting mechanisms as qrpspots.com.  That's why there are so many QRP contests designed for QRPers to work each other.

Then, I'm not surprised you're out of touch...you apparently aren't even a licensed amateur evidenced by the fact that you never give your callsign.  All amateurs I know are actually proud of their callsigns....


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KE7TMA
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« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2013, 01:20:01 AM »

Many QRP operators simply dont want to acknowledge the fact that modes like CW and PSK have a huge SNR advantage over SSB when using low power.

Which logical fallacy is this?  Straw man or argument from nothing.  Perhaps it's both at once.

Please gives us a list of maybe a dozen QRP operators who refuse to acknowledge that CW and PSk are more efficient than SSB.  Since you seem so familiar with these people it should be easy.

Anyway as you know, anything below 50w is worthless and you can't make contacts with 25w SSB, because all you end up doing is banging your head against the laws of physics...
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WG5G
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« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2013, 12:59:59 PM »

Well against my better judgement, I have decided to add one last comment to this thread, I have edited  my QRZ.COM page, have a look, 73/72 Dan WG5G.
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NU4B
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« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2013, 03:26:01 AM »

Well against my better judgement, I have decided to add one last comment to this thread, I have edited  my QRZ.COM page, have a look, 73/72 Dan WG5G.

Hey Dan,
 Neat stuff!!!

 - Larry, NU4B
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AE5X
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« Reply #59 on: August 06, 2013, 03:05:44 PM »

Those of you who think Dan's DXing performance is all tied up in his quad might be interested in adding a bit of context to his story:
http://www.ae5x.com/blog/2012/09/07/from-sardine-sender-to-dxcc-honor-roll-in-10-years-qrp/

In summary, Dan worked 216 entities with a 2-element Yagi up 35 feet. Later, a 2-element quad took him to 300 entities. As impressive as his 5-el quad is, much simpler antennas did the lion's share of the work at WG5G

John AE5X
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