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Author Topic: Once again whackers wanna screw up the hobby... Encryption  (Read 136225 times)
W6EM
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« Reply #195 on: October 06, 2013, 05:40:59 PM »

I have observed that most of the disrespectful, ill-tempered replies to this thread, and others which cover controversial subjects (with one notable exception),  seem to come from 8-land. Wonder if there's a connection there?  Gotta admit, I've found no shortage of the same types in day-to-day encounters.  Wonder if its the water?
Tom
Tom:

Am I the exception?

Gosh what a statement about 8-land.  I just returned from a week-long jaunt up to Dayton 8-land and I always enjoy it.  Lots of very friendly folks at every place I go.  More so than here in AL.  Also, great electonics store in Midwest Electonics of Dayton.  Reminded me of what Silicon Valley in CA used to be.  Loaded up on stuff that you can't find here in AL.  Better prices than Skycraft in Orlando and even some of the better  hamfests in the southeast.

 
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W6EM
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« Reply #196 on: October 06, 2013, 05:47:19 PM »

Ah yes at the Hamfest. Reminds me of a little incident that happened at NEARFest a couple years ago. I meet up with a group twice a year at NEARFest. We all know each other pretty well and have a good time. Well one of the guys went out for dinner and came back around 10:30pm, when he drove in he went past the area where the whacker congregate. I guess they didn't like his speed and started yelling at him to slow down, he stopped and some words were exchanged. Not sure what the exchange was but I'm pretty sure he told them a thing or two.

Well shortly after a group of us were walking around checking out the nightly activities when another group passed us, as they did one of them yelled out Thats him with the white shirt. Well upon hearing that my friend goes over to them and asks what the problem is and they start in on him about speeding. A couple of them were obviously a bit impaired, especially this one big guy wearing a traffic vest. Lets just say it started to get out of hand, we attempted to walk away and they kept at it, following along. At one point enough was enough and the big guy was shown a Badge and told to walk away or it would not end well, eventually they did walk away. I must also add there was this one little guy that kept his distance and was egging the whole thing on.
Anyway we went on our way, we stopped at the building where there was some live music. While walking back to our area we meet up with one of the Deerfield Police, young guy, very polite, and he asks us whats going on. Well the little guy was again hiding in the shadows yelling show him your fake badge, hehehe, well the officer was quite surprised when he found out he was talking with 2 Federal Officers and a Maine Police Officer in our group. We chatted for a few minutes and were on our way. In the background we could hear him tell junior, they are exactly who they say they are and you need to call it a night... Most fun I have ever had at a Hamfest. 
Too much.  Probably were a bunch of "REACTors" who QSYed to amateur radio. 

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W9FIB
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Posts: 710




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« Reply #197 on: October 06, 2013, 05:54:39 PM »

W1JKA asks a valid question. And I would propose another question to those who call people doing something to help their neighbors. If we are whackers and all the other derogatory things we are called because you oppose what we do so much, why bother to read and respond in an emergency communications forum? I ask because I would think a forum called what it is would be a place to exchange pertinent information and learn from others experiences, not to be bombarded by derogatory remarks aimed at others simply to cause trouble.

The real losers are those who try to glean useful information from those who give it, but find it hard to do when others just post to simply be derogatory, flooding a thread with useless verbal vomit that I am sure they would not use at the dinner table.

Does this mean I support over zealous people who become involved in encomm? No. Does that mean I should treat them like something the dog did on the carpet? Also no. Just as racism condemns an entire group of people, so do remarks that try to lump all people involved in encomm into 1 group. So just as racism still exists today in some peoples hearts, so does the hatred of all people involved in encomm. Sad, but true.

The true meaning of "Elmer" is being lost to those who scream the loudest.

So the battle rages on. Also sad but true.
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W6EM
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« Reply #198 on: October 06, 2013, 07:34:15 PM »

W1JKA asks a valid question. And I would propose another question to those who call people doing something to help their neighbors. If we are whackers and all the other derogatory things we are called because you oppose what we do so much, why bother to read and respond in an emergency communications forum? I ask because I would think a forum called what it is would be a place to exchange pertinent information and learn from others experiences, not to be bombarded by derogatory remarks aimed at others simply to cause trouble.

The real losers are those who try to glean useful information from those who give it, but find it hard to do when others just post to simply be derogatory, flooding a thread with useless verbal vomit that I am sure they would not use at the dinner table.

Does this mean I support over zealous people who become involved in encomm? No. Does that mean I should treat them like something the dog did on the carpet? Also no. Just as racism condemns an entire group of people, so do remarks that try to lump all people involved in encomm into 1 group. So just as racism still exists today in some peoples hearts, so does the hatred of all people involved in encomm. Sad, but true.

The true meaning of "Elmer" is being lost to those who scream the loudest.

So the battle rages on. Also sad but true.

I don’t think there is a serious parallel between dislike of certain human behaviors and traits and racial discrimination.  Are we guilty of unjustifiable discrimination when we criticize those demonstrating behaviors which we find offensive?  Like chewing tobacco, spittoons (or lack thereof), cigars, cigarettes, reefers, coke-tubes, hash pipes, beer bottles thrown about, body tattoos, etc.

Granted, we are going a bit far when we say things like “everybody in 8-land is a tad unfriendly.”

The subject of Encryption opens up Pandora’s Box with respect to denigration of the basis and purpose of the amateur service.  The ARRL, far more eloquently than a lot of others, said so much in their official FCC Comments.  I guess my greatest fear is the confiscation of our spectrum by pin-head hospital administrators and ambulance companies using the Amateur Service instead of  purchasing Part 90 systems for routine hospital business.  Yes, dispatching employees, ambulances running Code 3, etc., is routine business.  And, if encryption in our service were permissible, who’s going to know?

If Wackers wish to don their orange vests, flack-hats, and speaker-mikes in order to rush to Krispy-Kreme to transport donuts to the men in blue, so be it.  But, when they drive de-commissioned Crown Victoria Police Interceptors loaded with lights and antennas and a siren posing as a PA, that’s a tad too much.  And, are getting very close to being accused of impersonating peace officers.  I can almost see the headlines: “Ham operator arrested for impersonating a peace officer.”

My definition of EMCOMM is basic “Boy Scout.”  Be prepared.  A working transportable 12V HF radio, wire for an antenna, batteries, and a means to charge them or operate from a vehicle.  That way, with no infrastructure, including VHF and UHF repeaters, amateur radio can indeed be there when all else fails.  All the rest, including ARRL correspondence courses and the extensive diatribe in this thread, doesn’t matter…….  Group activities aren’t nearly as important as what each of us, as individuals, could do if need be.  That has to be protected and preserved.  Maintaining an unblemished societal reputation of amateur radio is an integral part of that ability.  And, unabated Wackers put it all at risk…..

73,

Lee



  
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 07:42:28 PM by W6EM » Logged
WB6DGN
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Posts: 617




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« Reply #199 on: October 06, 2013, 08:54:45 PM »

Quote
Gosh what a statement about 8-land.  I just returned from a week-long jaunt up to Dayton 8-land and I always enjoy it.  Lots of very friendly folks at every place I go.  More so than here in AL.

Quote
Granted, we are going a bit far when we say things like “everybody in 8-land is a tad unfriendly.”

Lee,
Apparently your reading comprehension is a bit lacking.  NO WHERE did I ever say that EVERYONE is a bit unfriendly but ONLY that I've encountered MANY such people.  AND, conversely, because I've encountered many doesn't suggest that EVERYONE is that way.
On the contrary, I have many friends that I like and admire in and around my community.
However, in accordance with YOUR agenda, you try to distort what I say to suit your own wishes.  Don't you think its about time to let this "vendetta" go?  You don't like me and, frankly, I don't like you (or, rather, the things you say) so LET IT GO.  Is it so hard to just ignore me?  Go your own way, pursue your own activities and contacts and just PRETEND THAT I DON'T EXIST.  That's what I do regarding you.  And, no, I made no reference to YOU in any of my posts.  Until you barged in here, I had, honestly, forgotten all about you.  My reference was to another ham that I knew from a previous job, if you must know, and he's the one who was responsible for me to start looking when I found my last job in 8-land.
So, NO Lee, you're easily forgotten in my mind and I suggest that you do the same with me.  It surely can't be that hard.  If you're truly from the SF Bay Area, you know that people are very good at "forgive and forget" and have a "live and let live" attitude.  I don't like you; you don't like me; we're even NOW FORGET IT.
Tom

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W9FIB
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Posts: 710




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« Reply #200 on: October 07, 2013, 03:58:14 AM »

Lee,

I agree with what your saying. My point was geared more for the people who lump ALL people who prepare into 1 category, be it whackers or whatever. Individual criticism for any particular trait of a few people would not fall into this. I bet a few of those who are doing the lumping would say your in the same group simply because you are prepared on hf. And that is the group that I feel do more harm then good.

As I have said, I do not support such over zealous people do who fall into that category of behavior, but to include those who are trying to do things the correct way, is the root of my criticism. And that lumping together can be just as dangerous to the future of amateur radio as those individuals that make an @$$ of themselves.
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W1MSG
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« Reply #201 on: October 07, 2013, 04:54:47 AM »

Unfortunate as it is some people take the Emergency Communications thing a bit too far. They attempt to make it more than it is, by adding Emergency to the name they feel as though their response is needed and required for major events, even if its not wanted they attempt to force the issue. In another thread they are discussed being deployed to take pictures of a disaster area and send them in. I cant believe any EOC allowing radio op's to roam around in a disaster area. Another thread a while back spoke of carrying weapons, REALLY ... Your a Volunteer, if you think you must carry a weapon, STAY HOME! Otherwise let the people who are trained and qualified handle the firearms and you handle your 2m HT at the Shelter.

On another note I will be attending NEARFest in New Hampshire on Friday, I will probably see 4 or 5 decommissioned Crown Vic's with antenna's all over them, as well as the few guys wearing fancy vests with big Gold Badges stating their status as an Amateur Radio Operator. Magnetic signs on all types of vehicles with Emergency Communications and yellow lights all over the place. These are the folks that capture the spot light and give Emergency Communications a bad name. Not to mention the vendors that will be there selling lightbars, vests, and other assorted emergency responder gear.

Here is a video that is quite amusing, the title is enough to make me giggle ..  http://vidoz.net/video/YbrQ20BbkeH.html

I deployed to Katrina with the Army as an MP to provide Law Enforcement support and search and rescue, I can say that I didn't see any Emcomm operators while in New Orleans, the EOC that was set up had more than adequate communications to talk with a variety of services that were present. We didn't use our encrypted gear, but we did provide commo guys and equipment to the EOC so we would have comm's.

The encryption thing failed the common sense test and was not approved by the FCC. Finally common sense used by a Government Agency. It would open Pandora's box to everyone using the Ham Bands for what ever they wanted to because no one would who or what they were doing, not to mention HF Long Distance communications that would be quickly adopted by Terrorists both Foreign and Domestic.

Anyway my 2 cents worth if its even worth that.. Stay tuned for some amusing Photo's from NEARFest !

73,

Craig W1MSG
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W6EM
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Posts: 791




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« Reply #202 on: October 07, 2013, 07:06:50 AM »

I have observed that most of the disrespectful, ill-tempered replies to this thread, and others which cover controversial subjects (with one notable exception),  seem to come from 8-land. Wonder if there's a connection there?  Gotta admit, I've found no shortage of the same types in day-to-day encounters.  Wonder if its the water?
Tom
Tom:  In response to your claim that I have "poor reading comprehension," I'm again quoting just what you said.  Your pontifications of finding "the same types in day-to-day encounters" and "wonder if it's the water" clearly show extension of your bias to any and all people from 8-land.

My responses, including this one, have nothing to do with like or dislike of you.  This one was made to defend the vast majority of good people of "8-land" who all drink the water.  (And, consume German cuisine at Schmidt's or like Graeter's ice cream.)

Perhaps you should pen your posts a bit more carefully and/or sit on them overnight; and re-read them before you make them public.

73.
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W6EM
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« Reply #203 on: October 08, 2013, 06:02:23 PM »

Unfortunate as it is some people take the Emergency Communications thing a bit too far. They attempt to make it more than it is, by adding Emergency to the name they feel as though their response is needed and required for major events, even if its not wanted they attempt to force the issue...........

73,

Craig W1MSG
  Craig:  To add to your point, the State of Tennessee "Jack Daniel's" their Wacker populace by allowing licensed amateurs to purchase callplates with "Emergency" across the bottom.

73,

Lee
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K1CJS
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Posts: 6034




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« Reply #204 on: October 09, 2013, 05:14:00 AM »

Unfortunate as it is some people take the Emergency Communications thing a bit too far. They attempt to make it more than it is, by adding Emergency to the name they feel as though their response is needed and required for major events, even if its not wanted they attempt to force the issue....

You know, you've hit the major point of all the foolishness right there.  The really sad part of it is that the very point you cite is being pushed by--of all entities--the ARRL, the defender of the hobby and the ham bands, as necessary to preserve those same ham bands for ham uses.

I submit that if the ARRL wasn't pushing emergency communications and their "When all else fails" mantra, that there wouldn't be a tenth of the foolishness of decommissioned police cars with antennas, light bars, and 'ham radio' and 'emergency communications' plastered all over them, reflective vests, walkie talkies hung on belts with a speaker/mike clipped to collars or pockets, and badges with 'Amateur radio operator' and callsigns carried in wallets or worn openly.

Now, I'm not saying that the ARRL promotes things like that, but they promote the cause of the proliferation of those things, which is almost as bad.  If the open push for all things to do with emergency communications were to be dialed down somewhat by the ARRL, maybe the foolishness would abate somewhat--but I wouldn't count on it now--now that these things have been seen as a part of the ham radio/emergency communication package.
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W1MSG
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« Reply #205 on: October 09, 2013, 05:33:43 PM »

Probably why the entire encryption thing even came up .. There was no merit to the proposal especially since most emergency services don't even use it, and those that do use it to defeat scanner land. The reasoning that they have it so we need it just didn't pass the test of what Amateur radio is. The "When All Else Fails" thing just doesn't stand true. When all else fails, so will Amateur Radio, no matter what anyone says. I loved the post about having repeaters in adjacent areas, well those repeaters are probably sharing the same towers as the real Emergency Services. I know we have all the surrounding area Frequencies in our radios and actually go direct with adjacent jurisdictions when something of immediate importance is going on.

Well I am looking forward to Friday and NEARFest is always fun people watching, CJS if you make it up for the Fest look for my Jeep, I will be parked inside. Dark Blue, Black Hardtop with Veteran Tag's cant miss it, it stands out for all the right reasons ...

73,
Craig W1MSG
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W7ASA
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« Reply #206 on: October 09, 2013, 08:31:54 PM »

W1MSG's opinion: "When All Else Fails" thing just doesn't stand true. When all else fails, so will Amateur Radio ... ".  

The facts do not support your opinion. As one very recent case in point: Colorado.

The many thousands of people in Colorado who just last month experienced the horribly broad swath of severe flooding which destroyed a great deal of area infrastructure would likely disagree with you. Thanks given to the hams of Colorado began with the badged public servants, right from the initial stages of the disaster. Ham radio operators did indeed use their various skills and equipment and volunteer their TIME to keep remote cities, communities, camps and isolated individuals connected 'when all else failed'. In many cases hams were the ONLY means of communications in/out of those isolated areas. They also used their communications capabilities for enhancing search/rescue and recovery efforts. I was from that area and have many friends and family still in that part of the State who gave me first person accounts. Remember that Western counties are often larger than many Eastern States. The damage was and is, immense!

You must have known about this, because there have been many articles written on this web site and elsewhere about the heartfelt thanks given to ham radio operators by the governor of Colorado and echoed all the way down through the chain of command. Those hams did a great job and when the time came that they were no longer needed, they packed-up and went back to their homes & lives. This was only one of the many incidents which occur world wide where hams are very useful, sometimes even vital.

Encryption was not mentioned, but ham volunteers certainly were. It would be silly to confuse the two.


73 de Ray
W7ASA ..._ ._
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 08:48:40 PM by W7ASA » Logged
W1MSG
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« Reply #207 on: October 10, 2013, 03:39:22 AM »

Ray we are talking Apples and Oranges. The Emergency Services Communications system did not Fail, they just didn't have people in those remote areas. It was fortunate that there were Amateur Radio Operators that did live in those areas and were able to report on the conditions.
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N3HFS
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« Reply #208 on: October 10, 2013, 05:37:30 AM »

The Emergency Services Communications system did not Fail, they just didn't have people in those remote areas.
Right. A system sitting there, ready to use but without operators where needed, is not a failure when an emergency strikes.

Please read that sarcastically, because this is what amateur emergency communications is about: When there's no officials OR their equipment available, hams are still distributed amongst the "civilian" population and can get emergency (sometimes lifesaving) communications to where they are needed.

Now, the folks that live and breathe "amateur emergency communications" by associating strongly with officials don't have the kind of distributed nature that the entire population of (willing) hams have, so by their very nature they can be no more effective than any other "volunteer officer" (and are too often far less so).    

This, I believe, is the dichotomy of opinions that is keeping this thread alive for so long.
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K1CJS
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« Reply #209 on: October 10, 2013, 05:39:52 AM »

That is why it has been said time and again that ham radio can be an important part of emergency communications situations--in certain areas.  Colorado was and is indeed such an area--but the eastern seaboard certainly is NOT.  Yet the rabid emergency communications enthusiasts would have you believe that wherever you go, ham radio is an indispensable part of any and all emergency situations.  That simply is not true.

In Colorado during the recent flooding, ham radio did indeed play an important role--but there is no doubt that it isn't the role that the nuts with their re-purposed police cruisers, orange vests, and their habit of showing up whether they're needed or not would have had it be.
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