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Author Topic: Once again whackers wanna screw up the hobby... Encryption  (Read 130348 times)
W9IQ
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Posts: 102




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« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2013, 05:37:26 PM »

I think the notion that encrypting amateur radio transmissions is permitted by the current regulations as long as the key or algorithm is published is completely ludicrous.

The FCC regulations state amateurs may not transmit "messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning". The only purpose of encryption is to obscure the meaning of the message. The issue of publishing the key or algorithm does not negate this.

People often confuse authentication, authorization, non-repudiation, and validation with encryption. These all come out of the field of cryptography but they are not encryption. In the context of Amateur Radio, there are well established cryptographic standards for authentication for example, that would not be considered a message encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning. The ubiquitous nature of the authentication sequence makes it clear that its purpose is authentication. In fact, no part of the authentication message is obscured - it is passed in the clear.

- Glenn W9IQ
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GREGWTH7MMMAG
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« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2013, 07:25:53 PM »

The way things are today, most hospitals have several different possible links to the outside world, including (but not limited to) land line telephones, two way medical radio, two way business radio, satellite dishes for internet and telephone communicating along with their regular T-1 connections through the phone company, local cable tie-ins for television, internet and back-up phone and so on.  To even believe that they do not have back-ups is ludicrous in the extreme--in some cases they're required BY LAW to have them!

All of those things are vulnerable to failure.  Phone lines we all know can fail.  Tulsa, OK had two complete phone system failures for their area code about 9 years ago.  Flooding of the Bell telephone basement, and a circuit breaker tripped caused them.  Two way medical and business radios have their limits in range, and satellite dishes are great sails in high winds.  Just ask people where major disasters have hit how solid their infrastructure really is.
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KD0PWN
KS4VT
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Posts: 141




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« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2013, 04:14:38 AM »

To KS4VT, that's an excellent and articulate response!

Thanks and appreciate the Kudo's.  Grin
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K1CJS
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Posts: 5888




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« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2013, 06:10:41 AM »

All of those things are vulnerable to failure.  Phone lines we all know can fail.  Tulsa, OK had two complete phone system failures for their area code about 9 years ago.  Flooding of the Bell telephone basement, and a circuit breaker tripped caused them.  Two way medical and business radios have their limits in range, and satellite dishes are great sails in high winds.  Just ask people where major disasters have hit how solid their infrastructure really is.

All true, but the point is that if one fails, there is another to take up the work.  For ALL of them to fail, it has to be pretty bad, and in that case, the ham radio connections would probably be down too, since they're not as robust as the others.

You may say that if that happened, the ham radio link could be restored in short order, but so could one of the other links--ham radio is NOT less prone to failure than hardened comms that hospitals and public safety organizations have.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 06:15:36 AM by K1CJS » Logged
W9FIB
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Posts: 585




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« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2013, 08:36:15 AM »

ham radio is NOT less prone to failure than hardened comms that hospitals and public safety organizations have.

Really? Hardened comms are just that...hardened. Ham radio is not. How many organizations can quickly set up a replacement for a fiber optic cable that is severed? Or replace a microwave link? Or have the knowledge to take a pair of radios and make a makeshift repeater? How many could cut and set up a wire dipole to replace an antenna that went down with the tower it was attached to? And be able to deal with the weak signal levels?

While ham radio can and does fail, there are many that have multiple radios, and multiple skilled people who can quickly fill the need. That makes it less prone to failure.  Wink
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K1CJS
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« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2013, 10:02:15 AM »

ham radio is NOT less prone to failure than hardened comms that hospitals and public safety organizations have.

Really? Hardened comms are just that...hardened. Ham radio is not. How many organizations can quickly set up a replacement for a fiber optic cable that is severed? Or replace a microwave link? Or have the knowledge to take a pair of radios and make a makeshift repeater? How many could cut and set up a wire dipole to replace an antenna that went down with the tower it was attached to? And be able to deal with the weak signal levels?

While ham radio can and does fail, there are many that have multiple radios, and multiple skilled people who can quickly fill the need. That makes it less prone to failure.  Wink

So what you're saying--in effect--is that ALL of those different comms are going to fail all at once but ham radio won't?  Sorry, 'FIB, but you're living in a dream world.  The only ones who really believe that are the advertizing people who write the ARRL's advertizing copy--and then only when they're working on that advertizing.
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W9FIB
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Posts: 585




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« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2013, 10:55:04 AM »

Yes...all can fail! Ask the folks in northern Minnesota!

ARRL ARES E-Letter July 11, 2012

Lake County Emergency Coordinator Jeff Nast, KCØMKS, reported that Northland SKYWARN was activated from 1800Z on June 19 until 0145Z on the next day. Lake County RACES/ARES was also activated on June 20 to provide emergency communications for a fiber cable failure at the Knife River expressway bridge.

Cook County officials requested disaster response communications for the hospital in Grand Marais. All communications were severed during the storm, and the hospital was without contact with the hospitals in Duluth. Pat Scully, NØWSI, made the request and a communications response resulted. "We were without phone, cell, Internet, and 911 service for approximately 12 hours," reported Jayne Fingerman-Johnson, NØUYQ, of the Cook County ARES Response Team (CCART). "We set up our Amateur Radio station at the Cook County Northshore Hospital to provide communications to the outside world."


So understand a post instead of reading into it. Ham radio can improvise where hardened systems can not. That makes ham radio less prone to failure! Please speak with facts and not emotions because someone disagrees with you.

And no, that incident was not in a dream world.
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GREGWTH7MMMAG
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Posts: 30




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« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2013, 11:21:31 AM »

All of those things are vulnerable to failure.  Phone lines we all know can fail.  Tulsa, OK had two complete phone system failures for their area code about 9 years ago.  Flooding of the Bell telephone basement, and a circuit breaker tripped caused them.  Two way medical and business radios have their limits in range, and satellite dishes are great sails in high winds.  Just ask people where major disasters have hit how solid their infrastructure really is.

All true, but the point is that if one fails, there is another to take up the work.  For ALL of them to fail, it has to be pretty bad, and in that case, the ham radio connections would probably be down too, since they're not as robust as the others.

You may say that if that happened, the ham radio link could be restored in short order, but so could one of the other links--ham radio is NOT less prone to failure than hardened comms that hospitals and public safety organizations have.
You are making assumptions, and you know what they say about assumptions.  You assume that in the event of a disaster, someone will be on hand at a hospital to fix that satellite dish that became a Frisbee.  You assume that someone will be on hand to fix the severed phone lines, or submerged systems.  You assume someone with that kind of technical knowledge will be on hand to fix any communications failure at, or near a hospital in the event of a major disaster.  You are wrong on all accounts.  Though a place like a hospital would receive top priority to restore operations, that would happen only after the area became stabile again, not during a hurricane, or major flood, or snowstorm or what have you.  While ham radio operation is no different, the operators typically have knowledge to protect their equipment during an event, and make it operational immediately after something happened.  Their operation is much more flexible, which has already been stated.  Yes, phone companies can bring in portable cell towers, etc, but how long does that take to implement?  Places like hospitals need comms right now, not the day or two later for things to be brought in and activated.  Ham radio is not a long term emcomm solution, and never has been.  It is a rapid activation, short term solution to fill in the gap.
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KD0PWN
KS4VT
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Posts: 141




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« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2013, 11:22:02 AM »

You mean to tell me that they didn't have VHF or UHF MEDCOM channels in the ER to talk to the outside world? How was cell out of service?  Multiple carriers across the US with the larger carriers now utilizing point to point microwave and not depending on land based connectivity.

Sure sounds like typical ARRL propaganda.


Yes...all can fail! Ask the folks in northern Minnesota!

ARRL ARES E-Letter July 11, 2012

Lake County Emergency Coordinator Jeff Nast, KCØMKS, reported that Northland SKYWARN was activated from 1800Z on June 19 until 0145Z on the next day. Lake County RACES/ARES was also activated on June 20 to provide emergency communications for a fiber cable failure at the Knife River expressway bridge.

Cook County officials requested disaster response communications for the hospital in Grand Marais. All communications were severed during the storm, and the hospital was without contact with the hospitals in Duluth. Pat Scully, NØWSI, made the request and a communications response resulted. "We were without phone, cell, Internet, and 911 service for approximately 12 hours," reported Jayne Fingerman-Johnson, NØUYQ, of the Cook County ARES Response Team (CCART). "We set up our Amateur Radio station at the Cook County Northshore Hospital to provide communications to the outside world."


So understand a post instead of reading into it. Ham radio can improvise where hardened systems can not. That makes ham radio less prone to failure! Please speak with facts and not emotions because someone disagrees with you.

And no, that incident was not in a dream world.
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K1CJS
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Posts: 5888




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« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2013, 01:07:30 PM »

'FIB, Show me some other examples.  You are speaking of a one once in a lifetime failure, and if you look back in the posts I did say that smaller hospitals could experience them.  Now, I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, all I'm saying is that it is very, very unlikely to happen, especially since 9-11.  One occurence doesn't make it a standard that is going to happen time and again.  

BTW, You would do well to follow your own advice and understand the post BEFORE you go off half cocked.

Greg, I'm not assuming anything--except that you would understand what was written.  The last sentence to 'FIB is something you should take to heart as well.
 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 01:10:20 PM by K1CJS » Logged
GREGWTH7MMMAG
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Posts: 30




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« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2013, 01:16:18 PM »

'FIB, Show me some other examples.  You are speaking of a one once in a lifetime failure, and if you look back in the posts I did say that smaller hospitals could experience them.  Now, I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, all I'm saying is that it is very, very unlikely to happen, especially since 9-11.  One occurence doesn't make it a standard that is going to happen time and again.  

BTW, You would do well to follow your own advice and understand the post BEFORE you go off half cocked.

Greg, I'm not assuming anything--except that you would understand what was written.  The last sentence to 'FIB is something you should take to heart as well.
 
I saw nothing written, but plenty typed.  You are ducking and dodging where the flaws in your mindset have been pointed out.  9-11, if anything has proven that anything that is unlikely to happen, can happen.  You can either prepare for the worst case scenario, so that anything less is smooth and orderly, or you can live in a utopian world that something will always work.  We all saw how well that worked out in New Orleans, POST 9/11.  We are in a position for plenty more natural disasters on scales larger than what we have seen in the last 50 years.  You can choose to live in your "likely" world, and I will choose to live in the real world.  If you are unaware of what I am referring to, then there is no need to continue this discussion. 
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KD0PWN
K1CJS
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Posts: 5888




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« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2013, 01:25:21 PM »

Read your last post, Greg, and tell me again who's dodging and ducking--and assuming.  Goodbye.
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N3HFS
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Posts: 208




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« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2013, 07:11:41 PM »

I wasn't so sure I knew what a "whacker" was until now.
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W9FIB
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Posts: 585




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« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2013, 10:58:12 PM »

CJS... I gave you an example and now you want more. You said it couldn't happen. I showed you where it did. But that's not good enough for you. You need more. You can't seem to accept the fact that it DOES happen, post 9-11. And if you read the article closer, it was not just the hospital. "We were without phone, cell, Internet, and 911 service for approximately 12 hours,"... Did you miss that part? If all those systems are down to the hospital, seems like they would be down for everyone. As you say, its a small hospital, so they probably would not have a dedicated fiber optic just for themselves. Unfortunately, rural areas tend to put all their eggs in 1 basket, as was the case here. And while I don't have numbers, I am still willing to bet that there are more just like it.

Well you seem to have a good internet connection, use it. That's what I did. So I didn't go off half cocked as you say. I put some research time into it. Why can't you? Why can't you show me the facts that this is the only place in the country that this could happen? When you do that, then you can tell me that it was a once in a lifetime event. Don't just argue for arguments sake. Back up your statement with even 1 fact that proves your statement. I did.

Your statement was invalid, and I backed up what I said about it. Begging for more is meaningless because no matter how many examples I find, you will find an excuse to make your invalid statement still seem true. But alas, I predict a nice flame from you that says, something on the order of, I didn't find anymore so I am wrong again. Go ahead and beat that dead horse. It certainly seems fitting for you. Let's see who is really going off "half cocked".

Plain and simply...it happened once, so it can happen again. 9-11 certainly caused many improvements, but any system built by man can and will fail. It is those with the skills to improvise that will fill the needs until the professionals fix what's broken. And based on the many posts here on eham where many hams seem to make something from seemingly nothing, there seem to be many hams with the capability to do it. Thus less prone to failure then hardened systems. Which is what my first post was all about. And I stand by it as a tribute to all the hams who have in the past, are doing now, or will do in the future, what it takes!
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K1CJS
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Posts: 5888




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« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2013, 06:41:57 AM »

'FIB, You gave me an example--and I said earlier that the extraordinary may happen.  And I did NOT say that it couldn't happen--I said that it was extraordinarily unlikely that ALL the other links would go down at once.

The example you gave is still only...  ONE EXTRAORDINARY EXAMPLE, and exactly what I said may happen in my earlier post!  "I'll be willing to bet..." isn't a valid enough for other examples.  I did say it couldn't happen--except...  But now YOU want more, and can't accept the fact that you didn't see what I said earlier.  

This has gone far enough.  I'm through arguing, and I'll stick to what I've already said.  Do yourself a favor and go play with your fellow 'when all else fails' enthusiasts.  Goodbye.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 07:08:04 AM by K1CJS » Logged
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