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Author Topic: Once again whackers wanna screw up the hobby... Encryption  (Read 129996 times)
K1CJS
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Posts: 5884




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« Reply #150 on: September 08, 2013, 05:14:12 AM »

What do hams have that LEO's and FD's don't have?

Agility

Sorry, OM, but there are contradictory viewpoints to every one of your examples.  For this one, I'd venture to say that there are a lot--A LOT--more LEOs and FD personnel that are far more agile, can move faster, and are better trained than the average ham can/is.

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Ability to engineer communcations systems, ad hoc

In most larger police and fire departments there is a person that does just that when needed with a few of the department menbers also able to set systems up.

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Ad hoc communications systems, in place

And just what do fire departments do when at a major fire?  What do police departments do at a major incident?  They are able to do just that--and without a ham radio operator in sight.

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There's more, if one would only read the amateur code.

The amateur code refers to how a radio amateur should run his station and handle himself.  It refers to how an amateur should be ready willing and able to help out, not how they should consider themselves one step removed from a first responder.  73.
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W1JKA
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« Reply #151 on: September 08, 2013, 05:47:23 AM »

   Wow, this IS a learning experience, until now I thought EMCOMMS meant :entry mode communications: i.e. FRS and CB. Can anyone tell me if encryption is legal on my Dick Tracy wrist radio?
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W6EM
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Posts: 728




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« Reply #152 on: September 08, 2013, 06:09:32 AM »

What do hams have that LEO's and FD's don't have?

Agility
Ability to engineer communcations systems, ad hoc
Ad hoc communications systems, in place

There's more, if one would only read the amateur code.
Although K1CJS has refuted most of what you've said, there is an important one that that you missed that most "REACT-surplus" wackers don't use.  And, local PDs and FDs don't have it.  It's HF mobile/portable operation.  You know, (maybe you don't) ala Field Day.

Why is that better than four-score and 39 trunker-junker, whiz-bang mother /\/\ broadband 700MHz web-surfing terminals in police cruisers?  Simple.  All of that fair weather junk is dependent upon infrastructure being in place and operatonal.  While it will be for most all local fire or police activities, it likely won't be during or after a major storm, earthquake or fire.  Nor, will those wacker-asset repeaters in public safety vaults and co-located on the same towers, either.  That's already been mentioned.

While FEMA, DOD, and state agencies have HF, local governments do not.  Try "getting out" to another area when there aren't cell towers and telephone dial exchanges.  Or, anything remaining mounted on a tower or overhead power or telco line.  Hurricanes are great at eliminating it all.

FEMA can plan ahead and have assets on the way for Hurricanes, but not for earthquakes, fires, and tsunamis.  FEMA satellite trucks require useable highways.  Will those always be available?  (an untimely meteor shower or earth-based military laser could silence the satellites, real fast) Then again, HF mobiles and portables that are from outside the affected areas need roads to get to the affected areas or helo transportation.

So, if you want to "pound the EMCOMM drum," what you said ONLY fits with respect to HF.  All the rest of the orange-vest activites are well covered by local public safety agencies.  If you want to join them, sign on as a reserve volunteer and get properly trained.  It might save your life.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 06:28:35 AM by W6EM » Logged
W6EM
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« Reply #153 on: September 08, 2013, 06:21:31 AM »

  ..... Can anyone tell me if encryption is legal on my Dick Tracy wrist radio?
I dunno.  Ask Sam Sung.  Then again, the NSA decodes EVERYTHING.

I guess I just don't understand.  It has been clearly explained that HIPPA doesn't apply to the use of the Amateur Service during emergencies.

Frankly, if REACTers want "super" Private-Line® for their repeaters, they need to get their hospital sponsors/employers to buy and license their own Part 90 gear and stop trying to convolute the Amateur Service.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 06:30:20 AM by W6EM » Logged
K1CJS
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« Reply #154 on: September 08, 2013, 08:10:34 AM »

  Wow, this IS a learning experience, until now I thought EMCOMMS meant :entry mode communications: i.e. FRS and CB. Can anyone tell me if encryption is legal on my Dick Tracy wrist radio?

No, it means 'emergency communication'. 

To your question--Only if you're talking to Dick.   Cheesy
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 08:26:15 AM by K1CJS » Logged
K1CJS
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« Reply #155 on: September 08, 2013, 08:18:37 AM »

...While FEMA, DOD, and state agencies have HF, local governments do not.  Try "getting out" to another area when there aren't cell towers and telephone dial exchanges.  Or, anything remaining mounted on a tower or overhead power or telco line....

You've brought up some great points!  This is all too true, and this is where ham radio assistance can shine--and where the amateur service was originally meant to lend aid in times of emergency.  It was never meant to supercede local official comm channels as the push from our beloved ARRL would have you believe.  Of course, there are exceptions--like weather spotting--but that's far from taking over official comms.

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...FEMA can plan ahead and have assets on the way for Hurricanes, but not for earthquakes, fires, and tsunamis.  FEMA satellite trucks require useable highways.  Will those always be available?  (an untimely meteor shower or earth-based military laser could silence the satellites, real fast) Then again, HF mobiles and portables that are from outside the affected areas need roads to get to the affected areas or helo transportation....

Not quite always the case, since there have been FEMA equipment airlifted in in times of emergency.  Let's see a ham try to get a helo to get his emergency station equipment to a trouble spot!  

Also true, during times of war or major enemy attack, those airlifting assets can be wiped out, (in addition to our other communications assets) but if that happens--and to ALL of those assets--we've got more to worry about than lending a hand with our radio equipment.  Just plain trying to survive.

But still, you've pointed out what the amateur service should concentrate on.  Thanks and 73!
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 08:34:19 AM by K1CJS » Logged
W1JKA
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Posts: 1619




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« Reply #156 on: September 08, 2013, 09:07:30 AM »

Must be a slow day in Fall River also Wink
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WB6DGN
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Posts: 590




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« Reply #157 on: September 08, 2013, 02:23:24 PM »

W6EM's smart a** reply
Quote
Well, once upon a time, hams and other experimenters used devices called dummy loads.  So they could operate a transmitter without radiating a signal.......beyond the bench.

Smart a** answers rarely resolve an issue and so it is with this one.  Its pretty difficult to compare range with a dummy load attached OR response to interference, both of which are real-life issues with encryption as well as digital radio in general.  This is where experimentation is likely to be most productive.
But, like most smart-a** answer-givers, productivity is far from their mind.  They thrive on insults and demeaning comment; results be damned!
Tom
Tom
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W6EM
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Posts: 728




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« Reply #158 on: September 08, 2013, 05:36:18 PM »

Tom:  Perhaps, with the tenor of your remarks, you're displaying an unwillingness to think outside the box.  Maybe using not one, but **two** dummy loads could simulate your interference experiment(s)?

While we're at it, let's talk some more about interference.  He or she who occupies a frequency first is entitled to use it, per the FCC.  Analog, digital or whatever.  Then again, without a VFO, a scrambled-eggs equipped mother /\/\ HT has little choice but another pre-programmed channel anyway.  A pair of those was what you had planned on experimenting with now, wasn't it?  Oh, I forgot, Aztro Spectras had ecryption key devices as well and are pretty cheap, so could be a couple of those.

There is one other tool that might be useful in your surplus radio market research.  Something called an Anechoic Chamber, equipped with an overall exterior Faraday cage.  No RF into the AC and nothing out.

If you could find an AC large enough, several of your REACTive friends and you could experiment to your hearts' content on any frequency or band of your choice.....including 27MHz.


73.


Lee
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 06:39:53 PM by W6EM » Logged
W6EM
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« Reply #159 on: September 08, 2013, 06:49:23 PM »

Tom: One more thing.  I feel and felt strongly enough about why I don't think encryption has **any** place in amateur emergency communications that I filed Comments in RM-11699, as many did.  If you want to have a look at what I said, go to the FCC's ECFS website system and search under that proceeding number for my last name: McVey.

73.
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WB6DGN
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Posts: 590




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« Reply #160 on: September 10, 2013, 07:12:14 PM »

Quote
Tom: One more thing.  I feel and felt strongly enough about why I don't think encryption has **any** place in amateur emergency communications that I filed Comments in RM-11699, as many did.  If you want to have a look at what I said, go to the FCC's ECFS website system and search under that proceeding number for my last name: McVey.

Not interested. (T)
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W6EM
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« Reply #161 on: September 10, 2013, 07:18:21 PM »

Roger-Beep.
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KB8VUL
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« Reply #162 on: September 17, 2013, 07:43:58 PM »

Couple points on the encryption front.

First, if you got the hardware, and you are experimenting then go for it. 
No one will know what you are doing any way.

Second, hams think they need to be aware of everything that is going on with their local repeaters.
Go become a trustee of a local machine that is the main line one that everyone talks on.  Rip it out and install a D-Star, or P-25 only digital repeater and watch the melt down.  It will be called encryption, illegal, and you will be the biggest SOB on the band.  Why?  Because they can't sit and listen to it with their 30 dollar Baofang or their crystal controlled scanner. 
If you are carrying on a conversation then they feel they need to be involved with it.  After all they may have some piece of useless unrelated information that they can break into the conversation with and spout off their self absorbed greatness about.  It's the same reason that the scanner heads bitch about encryption,  They can't decode it.  They will make any and all argument that it's a taxpayer funded system and the taxpayers should be able to hear it.  Or that the government shouldn't be able to communicate with themselves without public over site.  There are a number of reasons that are given.  Boils down to being overly nosy.

Old guard hams will hamper anything that means change. 
They didn't want no code tech licenses. 
We know how that turned out.
This will be no different.

If you REALLY are set on encryption on ham, you have to alter the modulation scheme of your radios and call it another mode.  If you have two radios that can communicate with each other and no one else has that tech, it's pretty much secure, even if it's not "encrypted".  Hell give it another 10 years and communicate with Morse Code.  At that point there will be so few operators that can copy the code that it will have the same effect as AES256 encryption and be perfectly legal.
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W6EM
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« Reply #163 on: September 18, 2013, 06:31:34 AM »

Perhaps there is more to defending open, unencrypted, analog FM use than you've pointed out.

In a true emergency situation where infrastructure has been damaged or destroyed, the last thing needed is a dependence on an infrequent or convoluted mode for communications.  Let's think about that for a minute. 

If someone in the impacted area is himself or herself a victim, and they own and can use a simple radio (like a Baofeng or Puxing that you laugh about) for emergency contact with incoming resources, wouldn't it be a shame if it wasn't compatible with what the majority of radio users use arriving to help?

And, I'm not talking about repeaters still being around either.  Those are infrastructure too, just like the public safety repeater and trunked systems.  So, forget about repeaters, the Internet, and other "fair weather" crutches.

The key to post-disaster survival and intercommunication effectiveness is not who you can exclude, but who you can include......

As for "experimentation," with encryption, do it all you want above 1296MHz.  "Oh, but I can't buy any /\/\ surplus junk to use above 900Mhz."  So much for real experimentation.

73
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N3HFS
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« Reply #164 on: September 18, 2013, 06:39:34 PM »

http://www.arrl.org/news/fcc-dismisses-encryption-petition:

Quote
09/18/2013

The FCC has dismissed a Petition for Rulemaking (RM-11699) from a Massachusetts ham, that sought to amend the Part 97 Amateur Service rules to permit the encryption of certain amateur communications during emergency operations or related training exercises. The FCC put the petition filed by Don Rolph, AB1PH, of East Walpole on public notice in June. Rolph requested an additional exception to §97.113, which currently prohibits “messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning,” but the FCC said in a September 18 Order that it’s not persuaded his petition provides sufficient reasons to support the change.

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