Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net

   Home   Help Search  
Pages: Prev 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 Next   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Would you tell someone they have a bad fist?  (Read 50061 times)
ZENKI
Member

Posts: 934




Ignore
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2013, 01:43:41 AM »

Bad straight key fist is decipherable. Bad bug fist is really bad. Most of the time I encounter a really bad first it comes from a bug operator.  While some bug operators refer it as
a keying styling, I just simply call it a bad fist. I know what good  bug CW is, and what I hear from these bad bug fists is truly horrendous. I personally wont tolerate such a  bad fist.
While personalized style bug fists do exist they can be copied and you can tell who  the OP is by the first. The bad bug fists just send garbage because they have not mastered how to use a bug properly. People learning CW with a straight key I can accommodate because  their sending skill is 1000% better than someone with a retarded bug fist
Logged
K7RNO
Member

Posts: 279




Ignore
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2013, 09:37:22 AM »


Bad straight key fist is decipherable. Bad bug fist is really bad. Most of the time I encounter a really bad first it comes from a bug operator.  While some bug operators refer it as
a keying styling, I just simply call it a bad fist. I know what good  bug CW is, and what I hear from these bad bug fists is truly horrendous. I personally wont tolerate such a  bad fist.
While personalized style bug fists do exist they can be copied and you can tell who  the OP is by the first. The bad bug fists just send garbage because they have not mastered how to use a bug properly. People learning CW with a straight key I can accommodate because  their sending skill is 1000% better than someone with a retarded bug fist


The question was, would you tell them they have a bad fist.
Logged

73,
aRNO
NAQCC #6870, SKCC #11131
ZENKI
Member

Posts: 934




Ignore
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2013, 02:41:36 AM »

Well I always do because I use the RST table the way its meant to be used, true honesty. I do give RST199 and some hams repeatedly ask for their report because they dont understand RST199. I even get hate emails for being honest. Has political correctness and the nanny state  flowed into ham radio as well. Everyone is 599 even when you cant copy what they sending?  Just like its an offense to tell someone that their signal is splattering.

I do I do I Do!



Bad straight key fist is decipherable. Bad bug fist is really bad. Most of the time I encounter a really bad first it comes from a bug operator.  While some bug operators refer it as
a keying styling, I just simply call it a bad fist. I know what good  bug CW is, and what I hear from these bad bug fists is truly horrendous. I personally wont tolerate such a  bad fist.
While personalized style bug fists do exist they can be copied and you can tell who  the OP is by the first. The bad bug fists just send garbage because they have not mastered how to use a bug properly. People learning CW with a straight key I can accommodate because  their sending skill is 1000% better than someone with a retarded bug fist


The question was, would you tell them they have a bad fist.
Logged
STAYVERTICAL
Member

Posts: 864




Ignore
« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2013, 12:50:46 PM »

This is more of a psychological question than a technical one.

In my experience the old Chinese saying " Why do you you hate me?  I have never helped you"  comes to mind.

Most humans live in a world of their own reality, where they never make a mistake, and their signal and fist is always perfect.
To attack this worldview will simply invoke the defense reflex and you will be the victim of choice.

Just like the crazy freeway driver - let them pass and go on their way - their fate is in their own hands.
If they don't get many replies due to a bad fist, or they argue with other guys who are trying to be helpful - it is not your concern.

I know this sounds apathetic, but remember, we are not dealing with computers here, but human emotions - primitive and irrational.

As someone who does a lot of PSK31 operating, I can attest that if someone gives "accurate" rst/rsq reports,
they are not greeted with "why gosh, thanks for the heads up podner".
Normally it is a "OK thanks CUL 73 dit dit".  (SUBTITLE - how dare that lid give me a bad report).

So, how much you "correct" the mistakes of myriad hams around you depends on how much of the masochism gene you have inherited.
Some people like being whipped for some strange reason, but personally I like my ham sandwich with mild dressing.

73
- Rob
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 12:54:11 PM by STAYVERTICAL » Logged
K7RNO
Member

Posts: 279




Ignore
« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2013, 09:35:38 PM »

This is more of a psychological question than a technical one.

In my experience the old Chinese saying " Why do you you hate me?  I have never helped you"  comes to mind.

Most humans live in a world of their own reality, where they never make a mistake, and their signal and fist is always perfect.
To attack this worldview will simply invoke the defense reflex and you will be the victim of choice.

Just like the crazy freeway driver - let them pass and go on their way - their fate is in their own hands.
If they don't get many replies due to a bad fist, or they argue with other guys who are trying to be helpful - it is not your concern.

I know this sounds apathetic, but remember, we are not dealing with computers here, but human emotions - primitive and irrational.

As someone who does a lot of PSK31 operating, I can attest that if someone gives "accurate" rst/rsq reports,
they are not greeted with "why gosh, thanks for the heads up podner".
Normally it is a "OK thanks CUL 73 dit dit".  (SUBTITLE - how dare that lid give me a bad report).

So, how much you "correct" the mistakes of myriad hams around you depends on how much of the masochism gene you have inherited.
Some people like being whipped for some strange reason, but personally I like my ham sandwich with mild dressing.

73
- Rob


Without the freedom to criticize, there is no true praise. -Pierre Beaumarchais
Logged

73,
aRNO
NAQCC #6870, SKCC #11131
STAYVERTICAL
Member

Posts: 864




Ignore
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2013, 09:08:28 PM »

Quoting obscure dead men is the surest path to having no opinions of your own - Stayvertical
Logged
K7RNO
Member

Posts: 279




Ignore
« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2013, 09:33:29 PM »

Quoting obscure dead men is the surest path to having no opinions of your own - Stayvertical


Almost touché. What if obscure dead men express exactly my own opinion, just a lot better than I could myself? But we were getting off topic.

Back on topic, I think we are doing a person a dis-service if we don't tell them about objective deficiencies. If they explode, it is their problem. America is infected with the "if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything" syndrome. Not sure if you fall into that geographical area, Rob. I could not find your call sign. What is it?
Logged

73,
aRNO
NAQCC #6870, SKCC #11131
N3PDT
Member

Posts: 75




Ignore
« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2013, 10:59:07 AM »

...

There seem to be more and more operators who do not allow any space between letters or words such as:

cqcqcqdew4zyxw4xzyw4xzyrrrtnxferthecallbturrstis599599btnameisjoejoebtqthnewtownflnewtownflhwcpydew 2absw2xzykn

Although the most humane approach would be to let them know so they don't spend days, weeks or years calling cq without ever receiving a response. I just feel bad telling someone that they have a horrible fist....

When I run into one of those runitalltogether fists, I simply indicate I'm having (unspecified) copy problems and ask for a little more space between words.  Sometimes that helps, sometimes it doesn't.

I have a friend locally that is barely a year and a half into his CW career. He was pretty ragged, but I never said generally "you have a bad fist". Over time, I just mentioned specific instances where cleaning up his sending could help my copy. I try to phrase the suggestions in a way that say my copy is bad, help me out by doing "x", please. It goes over pretty well most of the time.

In direct answer to the original question: No, I would not tell someone directly they have a bad fist. If asked my opinion, I would be diplomatic about it and use tactics similar to those I've already mentioned.
Logged
STAYVERTICAL
Member

Posts: 864




Ignore
« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2013, 12:50:38 PM »

Quoting obscure dead men is the surest path to having no opinions of your own - Stayvertical


Almost touché. What if obscure dead men express exactly my own opinion, just a lot better than I could myself? But we were getting off topic.

Back on topic, I think we are doing a person a dis-service if we don't tell them about objective deficiencies. If they explode, it is their problem. America is infected with the "if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything" syndrome. Not sure if you fall into that geographical area, Rob. I could not find your call sign. What is it?

Good point! - Many great wits have preceded us, and mercifully they mostly did not care about political correctness.
This is one of the reasons I enjoy reading books from the 19th century, as they had the same problems without the layer of thought control.

If you have read "The crowd" by Gustave Le Bon it provides a great insight into the human mind when in company with others.
It is available ( as are most of the great books in history), at the gutenberg.org site for free, as they are out of copyright.

One of the problems today with telling someone they are wrong or their signal is full of weevils, is the current concept of moral relativism.
Since there is a great push to make everyone right, and not classify any idea or ideology as morally superior to another, the concept of being wrong is becoming taboo.

This is being force fed into our societies and the old courtesies are sacrificed as a result.
The results are societies full of emotionally volatile people with the inevitable instances of irrational rage directed at those who would help.

If you read "The crowd" it gives as an example that a crowd/mob will not embrace a rational well thought out argument.
But it will readily endorse and take up a catchy short slogan and chant it.
Also, a crowd will essentially take up the IQ of its stupidest members and not float towards its most intelligent.

As societies equate to a crowd in a sense, it is not surprising that well intentioned rational people are railed against.

So, while I totally agree that to help someone with their signal quality is a noble goal, it is important to choose the context.
If you approach the subject in certain ways, you can help the person without invoking the defense reflex.
I have certainly done this numerous times, but you have to pick your battles and terrain carefully.

Many times I have also seen and heard "helpful" people intimidate and abuse a person with a poor signal quality.
In their own minds they are being helpful, but to an objective observer, they are simply being abusive.

Diplomacy, the art of achieving an objective where everyone thinks they have won, does not have to be a lost art.

While we are on old philosopher quotes, lets remember the too often quoted Sun Tzu:
"The best war is one where you win without having to fight".

73
-Rob




Logged
N6GND
Member

Posts: 375




Ignore
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2013, 01:22:40 PM »


One of the problems today with telling someone they are wrong or their signal is full of weevils...diplomacy, the art of achieving an objective where everyone thinks they have won, does not have to be a lost art.

73
-Rob

Excellent observations from Rob. Thus I propose a new, utterly diplomatic Q signal:

QWS--Your sending has been infested by weevils.
Logged
K7KBN
Member

Posts: 2802




Ignore
« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2013, 10:49:49 PM »

Almost forgot about the operating signal ZAB (Your speed key is improperly adjusted).  This would probably not make sense to anyone under age 50 who didn't have the advantage of military communications experience, but it's a bit more specific than QSD.

And it's still a valid opsig, since AFAIK, ACP-131 hasn't been cancelled.
Logged

73
Pat K7KBN
CWO4 USNR Ret.
WA2DTW
Member

Posts: 91




Ignore
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2013, 05:27:14 AM »

I have NEVER told anyone that they had a bad fist. 
Some of the worst CW I have heard is from folks using semiautomatic bugs, or even CW keyboards who have the speed set very fast but use excessive and irregular spacing between the letters and/or words.  That is very fatiguing to listen to and very difficult to copy.   These are the ones that I wish 73 very soon after the start of the QSO.
Logged
K7KBN
Member

Posts: 2802




Ignore
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2013, 03:31:07 PM »

And if you don't tell them, they will continue their merry way, spewing undecipherable junk and making very few QSOs because (a): They don't know about their sending problem, and/or (b): you don't want to hurt their feelings.

I'll tell that station right away if I perceive something seriously wrong with their sending, and I hope they would tell me of such problems on MY signal.

Logged

73
Pat K7KBN
CWO4 USNR Ret.
WB4TJH
Member

Posts: 191




Ignore
« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2014, 08:09:44 PM »

I usually just tell a guy with a totally unreadable fist that I have a phone call or some other excuse, and quickly sign off with him. It could be an older gentleman, with a palsy, or something, trying to do his best at his beloved hobby. I'm not here on this earth to put someone down like that. I have struggled thru a qso many times with someone with a very poor fist that turned out to be a very elderly or physically handicapped fellow, just trying to do his best. If you live long enough, we ALL will be in that situation one day. A little compassion on  my or your part can go a long way in putting a smile on a ham who is struggling with his cw qso. After all, guys, it's a HOBBY, remember?
Logged
KB1WSY
Member

Posts: 777




Ignore
« Reply #74 on: January 08, 2014, 04:52:57 AM »

Speaking as someone approaching his first CW QSO (which will also be my first QSO, period), and after reading this interesting thread, it seems like it would be a good idea for beginners like me to (a) tell the other op that I'm a novice CWer and (b) ASK for a friendly critique of my sending. Now there's no Q-code for that, so it will have to be spelled out, in painful detail. But how else are we supposed to learn? I hate to say this as a total newbie, but: there are an awful lot of bad fists on the air. For a beginner, they are awfully hard to copy. I have no idea whether the "bad fist" issue has become worse (haven't been monitoring the ham bands for long enough).

I am also flabbergasted by the (apparently fairly longstanding) practice of sending "flattering" RST reports.

If the signal from my two-tube, homebrew TX had deficiencies (for instance, clicks, chirps, or drift) I would be the first person who would want to know about it! As for "readability," it doesn't just have to refer to someone's fist, it could be QRM, QRN, QSB. I would hope that a good op should be able to send: "SRI OM HVY QRM RST 379 RST 379 RST 379" and that would provide valuable information without offense.

As for the "S" how could a low "S" reflect badly on the other op's station in any way? On my little receiver, a lot of the CW DX that I monitor is barely above the noise level and with a little QSB, it's often dipping in and out of hearing. That's the point of CW, isn't it? To use your ears? But in what way would it make sense to send that op a "9" report for strength??

Finally, some of us -- such as myself -- have very basic homebrewed receivers. A "mediocre" signal report could simply reflect the deficiencies of my low-tech RX and have nothing to do with the other op's multi-thousand dollar, state-of the art, gazillion-tower installation. If the receiver is as broad as a barn door, there is going to be more QRM, and that doesn't have anything to do with the other op's transmission quality.

However, I get the message, it seems like nowadays you have to send 599 if you want to have a quiet life; so do I, or don't I? That is the question.

73 de Martin, KB1WSY
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 05:06:24 AM by KB1WSY » Logged
Pages: Prev 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 Next   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!