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Author Topic: Lets encrypt ham radio cause we are special!!  (Read 71598 times)
N6HBJ
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Posts: 136


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« on: November 26, 2013, 03:08:34 PM »

Haha just kidding. The whole HIPPA argument is ludicrous.

Doctors and other personnel have talked about treating patients over the radio for decades when they communicate with paramedics in the field, or ambulances and other emergency workers get dispatched over the radio and the dispatchers give the person's first name, medical complaint , etc. Anyone with a scanner can listen to all this stuff. 

It's not like Hams are giving out person's full names, birth dates, and all their prescribed medications and health problems.

We are not that important!

Sitting back now with popcorn and waiting to watch the fireworks.  Cheesy 
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W1JKA
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Posts: 2087




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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2013, 03:41:19 PM »

Enjoy your popcorn, you missed the show and the encryption fire works, they were expended about 10 topics ago.
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W4KYR
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Posts: 1598




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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2013, 03:56:55 PM »


Slightly on topic:

What about using encryption on the business bands (assuming one has a license of course for the band). On E-Bay they sell radios with sophisticated digital encryption.

 Can one use those radios with the encryption on the business bands or are those radios meant for law enforcement only? I was wondering who buys them and what bands people legally use them on.

And the Baofeng 888, they have a speech inversion scrambler. Where can you use the scrambler on? FRS? The business bands?
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The internet and cellphone networks are great until they go down, what then? Find out here. 
https://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,111948.0.html

Using Windows 98 For Packet...
W6EM
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Posts: 1664




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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2013, 04:30:16 PM »


.........And the Baofeng 888, they have a speech inversion scrambler. Where can you use the scrambler on? FRS? The business bands?

No (FRS) and m-a-y-b-e on commercial or public safety.  Oh, yeah, public safety can use type accepted radios with encryption protocols.  But, the key is in type acceptance of the radios.  Are Bow Fang's creations type accepted by the FCC's OET for Part 90?  I'm not sufficiently motivated to look it up, but you might be....

73,

Lee
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W9FIB
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Posts: 2103




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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2013, 01:09:05 AM »

Its a dead issue since the FCC said no.
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Happy being an Amateur Extra!
Nothing says CB on my printed license.
Ares/Races but no lights or crown vic.
KG4RUL
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Posts: 3074


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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2013, 05:56:01 AM »

Its a dead issue since the FCC said no.
\
And wisely so.
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K1CJS
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Posts: 6252




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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2013, 08:38:46 AM »

And that's the best answer.  Let the idiotic ideas go blowin' in the wind.
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N6HBJ
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Posts: 136


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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2013, 08:47:18 AM »

Enjoy your popcorn, you missed the show and the encryption fire works, they were expended about 10 topics ago.

You're correct. But there were so many comments that mine would get lost in the wind. I figure I'd stir the pot for fun.   Grin
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KS4VT
Member

Posts: 165




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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2013, 05:11:34 PM »


.........And the Baofeng 888, they have a speech inversion scrambler. Where can you use the scrambler on? FRS? The business bands?

No (FRS) and m-a-y-b-e on commercial or public safety.  Oh, yeah, public safety can use type accepted radios with encryption protocols.  But, the key is in type acceptance of the radios.  Are Bow Fang's creations type accepted by the FCC's OET for Part 90?  I'm not sufficiently motivated to look it up, but you might be....

73,

Lee

Any Part 90 licensee can utilize encryption and there is no limitation on the type (AES, DES, ADP, DVP, rolling code, etc...).  As long as the emission designator defines the modulation mask and they identify correctly they are good to go. It is not just limited to Public Safety.  In Part 95 though the FCC is very clear that there is to be no encryption at anytime.

§ 90.212 Provisions relating to the use
of scrambling devices and digital
voice modulation.
(a) Analog scrambling techniques
may be employed at any station authorized
the use of A3E, F3E, or G3E
emission, subject to the provision of
paragraph (d) of this section.
(b) The use of digital scrambling
techniques or digital voice modulation
requires the specific authorization of
F1E or G1E emission, and these emissions
will only be authorized subject to
the provisions of paragraph (d) of this
section.
(c) The transmission of any non-voice
information or data under the authorization
of F1E or G1E emission is prohibited.
However, stations authorized
the use of F1E or G1E emission may
also be authorized F1D, F2D, G1D or
G2D emission for non-voice communication
purposes, pursuant to
§ 90.207(l).
(d) Station identification shall be
transmitted in the unscrambled analog
mode (clear voice) or Morse code in accordance
with the provisions of § 90.425.
All digital encoding and digital modulation
shall be disabled during station
identification.
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KF7CG
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Posts: 1192




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« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2013, 07:48:10 AM »

The "encryption" question would be just one for the books if it weren't for encryption being part of the APCO Project 25 (P25) standard. After much research for an Amateur (Part 97) radio as opposed to a "commercial" (Part 90) radio, I found that there are no Amateur P25 radios. Many Part 90 certified radios that can be reprogrammed to Amateur frequencies but no Amateur radios that can do P25 even without encryption. All the big three Amateur companies make P25 commercial equipment but decline to build Amateur gear.

They all claim to have "better" for Amateur, but a hidden reason for no P25 is that this may conflict with the type acceptance for Part 97.

All this would be no problem except that all the digital repeaters in the area are P25 and the only Ham club that meets a reasonable distance from my home is populated with a large number of EMA, EMC types. With this in place the only digital VHF/UHF communication is P25.

Having other priorities, too, I refuse to spend $600 or more for a Commercial radio that is harder to program and use just to get P25. That leaves me as somewhat of a second class citizen.

And one last question, When will there be a real Amateur digital standard that might interoperate with P25 but not have encryption?

KF7CG
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WS4E
Member

Posts: 339




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« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2013, 09:18:57 PM »

type acceptance for Part 97.

There is no such thing.   That is why hams can use any equipment they want even ones they design and build themselves. 

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KF7CG
Member

Posts: 1192




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« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2013, 05:32:52 AM »

There is Type Acceptance for manufacturers or maybe you might call it certification. Why do you think that the manufacturers show models for preview but not for sale until the are approved. Think similar to no 10 meters on commercial amps.

KF7CG
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K1CJS
Member

Posts: 6252




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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2013, 05:37:40 AM »

The only time type acceptance isn't needed is when hams DO build their own transmitting equipment--but building more than two or three (not sure of the actual number) of the same design for the purpose of selling them, does require you to submit a model of the equipment to the FCC for review and approval.
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KG4RUL
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Posts: 3074


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« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2013, 06:40:22 AM »

Enjoy your popcorn, you missed the show and the encryption fire works, they were expended about 10 topics ago.

You're correct. But there were so many comments that mine would get lost in the wind. I figure I'd stir the pot for fun.   Grin

You have a REALLY weird idea of what constitutes "fun".

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KS4VT
Member

Posts: 165




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« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2013, 04:03:58 PM »

The "encryption" question would be just one for the books if it weren't for encryption being part of the APCO Project 25 (P25) standard. After much research for an Amateur (Part 97) radio as opposed to a "commercial" (Part 90) radio, I found that there are no Amateur P25 radios. Many Part 90 certified radios that can be reprogrammed to Amateur frequencies but no Amateur radios that can do P25 even without encryption. All the big three Amateur companies make P25 commercial equipment but decline to build Amateur gear.

They all claim to have "better" for Amateur, but a hidden reason for no P25 is that this may conflict with the type acceptance for Part 97.

All this would be no problem except that all the digital repeaters in the area are P25 and the only Ham club that meets a reasonable distance from my home is populated with a large number of EMA, EMC types. With this in place the only digital VHF/UHF communication is P25.

Having other priorities, too, I refuse to spend $600 or more for a Commercial radio that is harder to program and use just to get P25. That leaves me as somewhat of a second class citizen.

And one last question, When will there be a real Amateur digital standard that might interoperate with P25 but not have encryption?

KF7CG

The APCO25 Common Air Interface (CAI) is not encrypted by any means.  All of the commercial radio and scanner manufacturers can built to the CAI platform and have zero issues in decoding these systems when in the clear.  It is ONLY when an encryption capability is introduced, which is either by the introduction of a hardware board or a firmware flash, will the radio then be capable of encryption.  But to add to this, an encrypted capable radio must be keyloaded in order to make an encrypted call and all of the radios must be keyloaded with the same algorithm.  Just because a radio has encryption capabilities, it does not mean that it will actually be able to make an encrypted call.

Programming commercial P25 radios are no different than programming any other radios. As long as you have the correct tools to do the job and understand what it takes, you will get used to it.

Yes there are no "Amateur Grade P25 radios".  I believe the for this are the following:

1. The APCO25 vocoder license from DVSI is expensive.  They provide the same vocoder for D*, but that technology is much cheaper.
2. The manufacturers do not want less expensive Amateur grade radios making its way into the commercial service, like a lot of the analog radios do, when they are modified for out of band use.  This would severely affect the bottom line of the manufacturers.

I have been working with encryption in public safety for over 20 years and have put it into service using both standard analog and APCO25.
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