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Author Topic: 2 repeaters, same freq, one open, one toned, will toned open and "open" repeater  (Read 13148 times)
K1CJS
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Posts: 6045




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« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2014, 10:16:48 AM »

...By the way, we don't know that it is possible for him to hit both repeaters from anywhere along his route.

This was evident on a repeater pair in my area, (147.000) when I had to get interference corrected.  I was advised that, even though the repeaters were 70 miles apart, the repeater that I had control of (as president of the club) which did NOT have an access tone was causing interference with another that did.  I was advised by the area coordinator to use tone access to mitigate the problem before the coordinator council had to take further steps because of complaints from the other repeater owner--which was done.  Problem solved.  Interference eliminated.
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KK4YTM
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« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2014, 07:00:17 PM »

This was evident on a repeater pair in my area, (147.000) when I had to get interference corrected.  I was advised that, even though the repeaters were 70 miles apart, the repeater that I had control of (as president of the club) which did NOT have an access tone was causing interference with another that did.  I was advised by the area coordinator to use tone access to mitigate the problem before the coordinator council had to take further steps because of complaints from the other repeater owner--which was done.  Problem solved.  Interference eliminated.

Now I'm really confused, so folks not using a tone were interfereing with another repeater that was using tone? Seems like it should have been the other way around. Like they should have been getting into your machine? 70 mile distance doesn't seem near far enought apart. Someone half way between them would be able to hit either one. Newbie here so please enlighten me.  Tks
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NJ1K
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« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2014, 07:06:14 PM »

So, there ya go.  Another instance where someone who was using a non-toned repeater was transmitting the tone for a co-channel repeater that required the tone.  Must have been the same tone...

I say again, don't do it....  It's poor amateur practice...
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WB6DGN
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Posts: 619




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« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2014, 10:46:33 PM »

Quote
Using a PL tone to access a repeater that doesn't require tone is not good amateur practice, and it's inconsiderate besides..

When the station is that far away and, apparently, is not able to hear "your" repeater and the problem only occurs during "band openings", I believe it is NEITHER poor operating practice NOR inconsiderate to transmit a tone that may be needed for occasional use.  There are two repeaters in my area which have the same issue.  One RESOLVED the issue by changing to one of the other tones recommended for his area;  the other operator lowered his antenna which somewhat resolved the issue and, when it occurs anyway, he just complains about it.  Now, which of those repeaters do you think provides better service to its users?  Remember, everything about ham radio is SHARED.  There are NO exclusive frequency or tone assignments.  Every region that I have ever looked up has more than one recommended tone so, who do you think is being "inconsiderate"?
Tom
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NJ1K
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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2014, 04:30:03 AM »

It's the individual operator that's being inconsiderate, that's who.

You have no defense for your position.

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K1CJS
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« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2014, 05:21:15 AM »

When the station is that far away and, apparently, is not able to hear "your" repeater and the problem only occurs during "band openings", I believe it is NEITHER poor operating practice NOR inconsiderate to transmit a tone that may be needed for occasional use.  There are two repeaters in my area which have the same issue.  One RESOLVED the issue by changing to one of the other tones recommended for his area;  the other operator lowered his antenna which somewhat resolved the issue and, when it occurs anyway, he just complains about it.  Now, which of those repeaters do you think provides better service to its users?  Remember, everything about ham radio is SHARED.  There are NO exclusive frequency or tone assignments.  Every region that I have ever looked up has more than one recommended tone so, who do you think is being "inconsiderate"?
Tom

It seems its only a problem to someone with a twist in his britches and the belief that he 'owns' the frequency--and no other repeater within a thousand miles has a right to use that pair.
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NJ1K
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Posts: 336




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« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2014, 05:56:01 AM »

When the station is that far away and, apparently, is not able to hear "your" repeater and the problem only occurs during "band openings", I believe it is NEITHER poor operating practice NOR inconsiderate to transmit a tone that may be needed for occasional use.  There are two repeaters in my area which have the same issue.  One RESOLVED the issue by changing to one of the other tones recommended for his area;  the other operator lowered his antenna which somewhat resolved the issue and, when it occurs anyway, he just complains about it.  Now, which of those repeaters do you think provides better service to its users?  Remember, everything about ham radio is SHARED.  There are NO exclusive frequency or tone assignments.  Every region that I have ever looked up has more than one recommended tone so, who do you think is being "inconsiderate"?
Tom

It seems its only a problem to someone with a twist in his britches and the belief that he 'owns' the frequency--and no other repeater within a thousand miles has a right to use that pair.

So, I see you’re back to reading to my posts again.

You all seem to want to bash others in this forum rather than look at the logic of the original question.  I used my situation as an example of what could be wrong with the rationale of transmitting PL tone when using a repeater that doesn’t need one.  But instead, your ego has clouded your ability to look at the logic of the question.

Knowing that transmitting PL tone when not required can POSSIBLY cause interference to a distant repeater, yet not using PL tone will still accomplish accessing the repeater you want to use but not cause interference some distance away, yet transmitting PL anyway is foolish.  Why would a respectable ham transmit a signal, while knowing his emissions MAY cause interference, yet also know he doesn’t have to?  No emotion here, no complaining, just simple logic. 

What I have learned here is that some operators don’t really care if their operations cause interference to others.  Shared spectrum, remember?

I also learned that here on this forum, logic be damned, some posters will not allow themselves to learn anything.  They pick their position and come hell or high water, they stick to it even though they know they are wrong.

Also, when someone uses an example to demonstrate what can happen in a situation, these same posters drift way off the thread topic simply to bash the poster only so his or her ego remains at a high elevation. 

To get back to the original question, it’s bad practice to use PL tone when it’s not required.  Go ahead and use your PL tone all you want to, it’s still bad practice.  As a matter of fact, why not transmit all the PL tones all the time on every repeater pair you use?  That way you will be assured to access any repeater anywhere in your travel area.  You won’t need to worry about which tone to use.  Wouldn’t this be good operating practice by your standards?


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AA4PB
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« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2014, 06:03:42 AM »

This was evident on a repeater pair in my area, (147.000) when I had to get interference corrected.  I was advised that, even though the repeaters were 70 miles apart, the repeater that I had control of (as president of the club) which did NOT have an access tone was causing interference with another that did.  I was advised by the area coordinator to use tone access to mitigate the problem before the coordinator council had to take further steps because of complaints from the other repeater owner--which was done.  Problem solved.  Interference eliminated.

This case is the other side of the issue. The toned repeater users were getting into the un-toned repeater, causing it to key up. It's output was being heard by toned repeater users as interference. Adding a different tone to the un-toned repeater prevents it from inadvertently being keyed by users of the other repeater. Of course, since the coverage areas overlap, all users have to be sure not to use their repeater if the other one is in use or you still have the interference issue.
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AA4PB
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« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2014, 06:15:45 AM »

The OPs problem is that he doesn't have a memory slot available in which to program the same frequency pair with a different tone setting. That means that he would have to reprogram the tone frequency each time he traveled - which is not very convenient on some transceivers. I agree that he should be very careful to ensure that he is not hitting the distant repeater if he is going to do this.
 
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NJ1K
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Posts: 336




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« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2014, 06:33:49 AM »

The OPs problem is that he doesn't have a memory slot available in which to program the same frequency pair with a different tone setting. That means that he would have to reprogram the tone frequency each time he traveled - which is not very convenient on some transceivers. I agree that he should be very careful to ensure that he is not hitting the distant repeater if he is going to do this.
 

The problem here is that if he causes interference to the other repeater, he likely will never know he did.  His signal can key up the other machine but he won't know he did.  He will only hear the closest one, especially during a tropo opening (which by the way, happens a lot in the mountains).  And further, the owner of the repeater that he interferes with would have a very difficult time tracking down the source of the interference. 

Maybe it might be in his interest contact the owner of the toned repeater and ask him if it's ok with him to do that.  Just to see what he says about it.

So, personal convenience, or good considerate operator? 
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NJ1K
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Posts: 336




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« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2014, 07:41:19 AM »

One last note from me in this thread before I bail out:

For many years I didn't even realize where the stray signal was coming from.  I always assumed it was someone from a long distance away trying to join the traffic on my repeater.  Occasionally I would hear a voice come through but when answered, they never acknowledged me or anyone else on the repeater.

A few months ago though, I just happenned to be in the right place at the right time.  I was at my home operating position during a band opening.  I heard the other repeater (200+ miles away).  When a certain operator on that repeater keyed up, my repeater also keyed up and of course drowned out the distant repeater.  So, I turned my repeater off to listen to the QSO.  Ah ha, one of those operators was sending the same tone that my repeater requires.  Unfortunately, his audio was not strong enough to copy his callsign, so I still don't know who it is.  I did get the repeater callsign though, so I know what repeater he was accessing.  That repeater doesn't require a PL tone to access.

And for those who think I came in here just to complain, that's not it.  It's about teaching others what can happen when they are not aware of their emissions.  Yes, I could change the access tone on my repeater and be fine until the next operator that sends out that tone needlessly comes along.  But changing PL tone access isn't an easy matter due to the link radios that also must be changed and the fact that picking a new tone that other repeaters aren't using and satisfies the coordinating organization is tricky.  Especially considering that there would be no issue at all if individual operators didn't operate their radios this way.

That's all I have to say on the matter.  Pick your poison, considerate operator, or personal convenience for you.  What kind of ham operator would you like to be?
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K1CJS
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« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2014, 08:38:16 AM »

This was evident on a repeater pair in my area...

Now I'm really confused, so folks not using a tone were interfereing with another repeater that was using tone? Seems like it should have been the other way around. Like they should have been getting into your machine? 70 mile distance doesn't seem near far enought apart. Someone half way between them would be able to hit either one. Newbie here so please enlighten me.  Tks

I thought I had posted an answer to you, but I guess it didn't go through--probably my fault.  But AA4PB covered it nicely.  Thanks, Bob.
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KK4YTM
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« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2014, 04:11:16 PM »

Sorry to stir up a mess here. I was originally interested from a technical stand point and a way to improve my limited memory. As a newbie, I was not aware of causing a potential problem. And I just realized I left out a potentially important piece of info, I am using a 5 watt handheld.  Tks for all the replies
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NJ1K
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Posts: 336




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« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2014, 04:26:12 PM »

Sorry to stir up a mess here. I was originally interested from a technical stand point and a way to improve my limited memory. As a newbie, I was not aware of causing a potential problem. And I just realized I left out a potentially important piece of info, I am using a 5 watt handheld.  Tks for all the replies

Well keep this in mind:  A friend of mine in Southwest Virginia can key up a 440 repeater in South Carolina with a HT using 1/2 watt.  You do the math...
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AA4PB
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« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2014, 04:51:56 PM »

Simple, since you are a user of both repeaters ask someone close to the toned repeater to let you know if you are keying it up while you are using the other repeater.
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