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Author Topic: Submersible Pump in a Big Lake ?  (Read 9894 times)
W8JX
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« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2014, 04:27:13 PM »

Why not just get a good sized 12 volt bilge attached to a hose with 12v feed taped to part of hose and drop it is water when you need it and pull it out when not in use. I have little doubt their concern is 120v shock potential.
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K8AXW
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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2014, 09:32:37 AM »

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His legality problem may be from taking water from the lake.

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Just using water to rinse off a boat and/or dock, however, just puts the water right back where it was taken from.

Taking water from the lake might present some legal question.  Returning the water to the lake after cleaning something will no doubt have legal ramifications!

Our filter plant pulls water from a river, filtered and used for process.  This in turn leaves the sticks, leaves and a great deal of mud behind which the plant isn't allowed to return to the river......where it came from!  It must be trucked to a landfill.

Water is pulled from the same river and is used to wash out ash from our coal burning boilers.  This water/ash mixture is then pumped to a lagoon where the ash is removed from the water and the water is returned to the river.

However, the water returning to the river must meet EPA regulated clean water regulations that are extremely rigid. 

The guy washing his boat and dock might just well be in violation of federal law.
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KF7CG
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« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2014, 10:04:52 AM »

Federal law on this stuff can be insane. Several property owners in Idaho were fined by the EPA for drawing water from one of the tributaries of the Snake River without having extremely fine mesh filters on the pump inlets to prevent the pumps from sucking in salmon fry. No chance of this the propeties were above a single drop 200 foot waterfall. NO way for adult salmon to get up the stream to spawn, hence no fry.

Still rules is rules.

KF7CG
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K1CJS
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« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2014, 12:08:30 PM »

Why doesn't he put a length of plastic pipe into the water and simply pump the water out of that to clean his boats etc? My sister and brother in law draw lake water for their cottage and the pump is in the cottage, not in the lake.

It's probably something he had on hand.  After all, would you go and get a brand new pump to pump wash water if you had another pump on hand that could do it just as well?  (no pun intended)
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K1CJS
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2014, 12:19:26 PM »

Taking water from the lake might present some legal question.  Returning the water to the lake after cleaning something will no doubt have legal ramifications!

Our filter plant pulls water from a river, filtered and used for process.  This in turn leaves the sticks, leaves and a great deal of mud behind which the plant isn't allowed to return to the river......where it came from!  It must be trucked to a landfill.

That's a great deal different than incidental use by a private individual.  As long as cleaners or detergents aren't added to the water, there isn't anything to be filtered or cleaned from it before it's returned to its source.  

Quote
Water is pulled from the same river and is used to wash out ash from our coal burning boilers.  This water/ash mixture is then pumped to a lagoon where the ash is removed from the water and the water is returned to the river.

However, the water returning to the river must meet EPA regulated clean water regulations that are extremely rigid.  

The guy washing his boat and dock might just well be in violation of federal law.

Again, that case is substantially different.  If the guy can prove that the water contains nothing that wouldn't find it's way to the lake anyway, he can argue that his 'diversion' of the water isn't doing any harm.  Rainwater would rinse off the guy's dock and boat anyway--is the government going to sue God for the rain?  (Although, with the present administration, I wouldn't put it past them!)

Added--If what you say is indeed the case, every Joe Shmoe that washed his car and let the run off onto the street would be liable for the same charge.  It would probably never happen.

In any event, we're getting off track here, we're not lawyers, and until the guy is charged, why worry about it?  73.
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N6AJR
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« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2014, 07:25:27 AM »

#1, the guy who needs to keep his batteries up on his boat, I would reccommend a small ( 1 foot square or so) solar panel and a tiny charge controller.  batteries always up and no wires needed to the shore. 

#2, If you have a problem wit the pump going south while in the water, it will most always end up blowing the fuse, circuitbreaker or release maximum smoke.  I doubt it will sit there and kill fish.
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K8AXW
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« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2014, 10:55:53 AM »

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In any event, we're getting off track here, we're not lawyers, and until the guy is charged, why worry about it?  73.

CJS:  You're correct.  I suppose what I am really trying to say is for the guy to be aware of what COULD happen.  Considering the government (Read: EPA) insanity these days, it's always wise to err on the side of caution.  And we are off subject.  Sorry for that.

(Sorry again, can't help it.  The state of Maryland wants to tax each individual "for the amount of rainwater draining from their roof!"  Big roof, big tax.  Small roof, small tax.  You believe that brother?)

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K1CJS
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« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2014, 06:10:02 AM »


(Sorry again, can't help it.  The state of Maryland wants to tax each individual "for the amount of rainwater draining from their roof!"  Big roof, big tax.  Small roof, small tax.  You believe that brother?)


Yes, I do.  The city I live in is doing the same. 
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K8AXW
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« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2014, 08:31:50 AM »

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Yes, I do.  The city I live in is doing the same.

It's no wonder citizens are becoming more and more paranoid!!
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KD0REQ
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« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2014, 08:49:00 AM »

AJR, lots of running pumps have dangers.  before the motor dies, often you will start to have insulation breakdowns.  enough charge from what amounts to a tap on the motor windings will get down the shaft to the pump well to kill.  there are one or two lights-out lake home owners in the paper each year whose heirs and assigns find out the hard way.

the NEC has not mandated GFI to lakeshores.  I did a little chasing a year ago after reading about the 12th boat owner who got blasted stepping on their dock, and among the public documents (few) was one from a few years ago, in which the assembled code poobahs read through marina owner objections to the cost (8 bucks a unit) and decided that was the most significant factor.

geez, folks, if you are required by law to bond all metal, the motor, any heater, and the electrical service to ground with a #6 copper wire at a whirlpool tub and use a GFI, should that not be a clue?  it is no crime to exceed code.  put in the darn GFI and if it trips twice, find out why.  eight freaking bucks.  lunch money.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 08:54:24 AM by KD0REQ » Logged
N6AJR
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« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2014, 10:47:21 AM »

good point, excellent reccommendation
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K1DA
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« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2014, 08:18:46 AM »

  Avoid the problem, put perforated casing in on shore but as close to the waterline as possible.  Drop the pump into that. 
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K1CJS
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Posts: 6034




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« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2014, 03:12:02 PM »

...geez, folks, if you are required by law to bond all metal, the motor, any heater, and the electrical service to ground with a #6 copper wire at a whirlpool tub and use a GFI, should that not be a clue?  it is no crime to exceed code.  put in the darn GFI and if it trips twice, find out why.  eight freaking bucks.  lunch money.

That's just plain common sense.  Too bad common sense is all but dead, especially in people who complain about how the code doesn't require it....
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K1CJS
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« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2014, 03:17:54 PM »

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Yes, I do.  The city I live in is doing the same.   (Rainwater tax.)

It's no wonder citizens are becoming more and more paranoid!!

Yeah.  No kiddin.  Now my city wants to charge for the garbage bags--the 'pay as you throw' solution.  The only thing is that the city, three or four years ago issued separate garbage and recycle bins, and bought new trucks to handle them.  If the garbage and recycling isn't in the bins, the city won't pick it up.  

Yes, the city owns the trucks.  Now they're going to defeat the purpose of those bins and trucks by picking the bags out of the bins and refusing anything not in bags.

City government has gone crazy.  Common sense is dead.  Paranoid doesn't describe how some city residents feel about it.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 03:20:01 PM by K1CJS » Logged
K8AXW
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« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2014, 07:17:32 PM »

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Paranoid doesn't describe how some city residents feel about it.

It's becoming more and more difficult to express oneself without using profanity.  It seems that in some cases, the socially accepted English language simply fails to adequately express true feelings.
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