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Author Topic: Spark plug info for Harbor Freight 800 watt generator  (Read 136764 times)
W8JX
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« on: August 11, 2014, 08:40:23 AM »

A local store chain here was have a 75% off clearance sale on Autolite platinum spark plugs and I have been replacing them in my power equipment. The 800w was a bit of a challenge because it had a Chinese plug. It does cross reference to a Champion N14YC (or RN14YC if you want a resistor plug). You can use this to cross to another plug brand. Myself I am going to a slightly hotter resistor plug which is a RN16YC or Autolite 66. While some tend to default to colder plugs to reduce risk of detonation under heavy load with low octane fuel it will run better part load with a warmer plug and with 89 or better octane fuel there is little risk of detonation. Honestly you should never use 87 in a 2 stroke anyway but many will buy cheapest fuel to save 10 cents.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
W9FIB
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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2014, 11:14:38 AM »

Honestly you should never use 87 in a 2 stroke anyway but many will buy cheapest fuel to save 10 cents.

Never? What about the engines designed for the lower octane rating? And please stay on the 1 question I ask. That's if you can. But I doubt you can.
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Happy being an Amateur Extra!
Nothing says CB on my printed license.
Ares/Races but no lights or crown vic.
W8JX
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2014, 12:04:36 PM »

Honestly you should never use 87 in a 2 stroke anyway but many will buy cheapest fuel to save 10 cents.

Never? What about the engines designed for the lower octane rating? And please stay on the 1 question I ask. That's if you can. But I doubt you can.

No automotive engine today are designed to run its best on 87 octane, they are designed to tolerate it for those that having to buy better gas would be a deal killer for them on a purchase. If you believe otherwise you are pretty clueless on engine design. I have a old Saturn with 190k miles on it that still runs well but if you use 87 in it, its a slug especially in hot weather using AC and MPG is poor for a 4 cyl. On 93 in hot weather it runs great and gets well over 30 on road with AC even pushing 80. One of my daughters has a 14 eco cruze and she learn from her dad that high octane fuel and turbo chargers go hand in hand and gets in low 40's on highway trips using AC and running 70+.  GM was the first starting back in 80's to hide the knock of low octane fuel with knock sensor that hear knock before you and retard spark and keep you in ignorant bliss at expense of MPG and power. They have perfected it in recent years and other automakers have followed suit. Without it modern engines would destroy themselves on 87 octane under heavy load. Chrysler was last of big three to perfect this and before they did they used lower compression and retarded spark curves in many engines and were known for reduced MPG too. In old days there was no mystery about octane needs because your engine knocked when it was too low.

Many think gas explodes in a engine but it burns when octane and timing is correct. Because it burns timing is advanced as RPM increases to develop  peak combustion pressures at proper crank rod angles for maximum power and efficiency as RPM increases. With low octane fuel timing has to be retarded to prevent detonation and results in lower peak pressures and reduced efficiency. But average consumer only knows that you start car and drive it and use cheapest possible gas even though it cost more to use it because you use more. 87 was designed for 8 to 1 compression. Flex fuel engines are a bit of a joke in that e85 has the potential to make a lot more HP and have less MPG loss when engine is designed properly for it because it has a octane of over 105 and would run well with 13 to 1 or more compression but tolerance for 87 hurts efficiency and potential.

Getting back to 2 strokes, when you add oil to gas you lower its octane a bit. When they run if flame speed is too fast (low octane) peak pressures are reached too soon and power is lost to pumping losses even if it is not detonating. Most 2 strokes operate at a higher RPM and you can be in early stages of detonation but it is masked by rapid piston velocity/expansion but power output is lost because peak pressures are not at optimum rod/crank angles.

In a nut shell there is a lot of science in a engine design and theory that many such as yourself do not understand so it must be BS in your mind. And that is why they have knock control on engines to keep you happy using cheap fuel at the hidden expense of higher operating cost.  You know for many many years EPA MPG test have been required to be preformed with 93 octane fuel but auto industry fought hard successfully to prevent disclosure of this on window sticker. 
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
W9FIB
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« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2014, 03:18:53 PM »

Honestly you should never use 87 in a 2 stroke anyway but many will buy cheapest fuel to save 10 cents.

Never? What about the engines designed for the lower octane rating? And please stay on the 1 question I ask. That's if you can. But I doubt you can.

In a nut shell there is a lot of science in a engine design and theory that many such as yourself do not understand so it must be BS in your mind

Yep 10 years as an agricultural mechanic and small engine repair makes me full of BS. So does the electrical degree I got when I changed professions. But at least I am not so full of BS as to run my generator in my garage. BTW how are those jets doing in front of yours? Now that was pure BS.

Did you ever get the sites that prove my safety standards wrong yet? Been months now and only silence. Now that is a true gauge of BSing!
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Happy being an Amateur Extra!
Nothing says CB on my printed license.
Ares/Races but no lights or crown vic.
W8GP
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« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2014, 07:45:52 AM »

I have a 10 year old Honda EU-2000i, I have never even looked at the plug, use 87 octane fuel, I don't add fuel stabilizer, I change the oil every couple of years when I think about it (Amsoil) and it always starts in a couple of pulls and runs like a top!
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KD0REQ
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« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2014, 12:17:19 PM »

every car, truck, and small engine I have ever bought has a manufacturer recommendation for regular gas of 87 octane.  this is because I won't buy a whatever that demands premium.

it basically depends on the compression ratio and head design as to whether a gas engine needs the higher octane to retard knock.

some engines may have a sweet spot with 89, but premium 91+ is overkill for everything except a higher-performance engine design.

over the lifetime of the engine, it's a significant cost factor.  go with what the manufacturer recommends,  they put millions of test and stand miles in testing to determine their warranty conditions.  it's a hugely bigger cost factor for them.
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NV2A
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« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2014, 05:33:03 PM »

"No automotive engine today are designed to run its best on 87 octane, they are designed to tolerate it for those that having to buy better gas would be a deal killer for them on a purchase."

Quite true.  I have a 2011 pickup and a 2011 car, both a flex fuel.  I run low octane in them but If I want solid performance from either I give them a tank of high octane and they run like missles.  Must be a 10 to 15% "apparent" increase in hp.

Flex fuel simply means they will tolerate lower octane than most cars designed for higher octane but take my word for it, they much prefer high octane.  About every 10 tanks or so I give my vehicles a tank of high octane in hopes of keeping the fuel injectors clean.

I don't know that I'd run high octane in a small generator with hotter plugs then recommended for fear of burning up the valves.
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KD0SFY
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« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2014, 06:45:35 PM »

Note that octane rating has nothing to do with the energy of the gasoline or the power it will produce.  85, 87, 89, 91, 93 octane all create the same energy.  Octane causes the gasoline to resist "knocking".  The reason high performance engines need higher octane is because they have higher compression engines or forced induction, which increases the pressure in the chamber and with it increases the chances of knocking.  In modern engines, using an octane rating lower than recommended will cause the engine to detune itself to avoid knocking, making it seem like the gasoline has less energy, when in fact it is the engine's actions that are really to blame; while using an octane ration higher than recommended has no impact on performance.  Higher octane fuels also contain no more cleansers than lower octane fuels, so using a higher octane to keep your engine clean is basically a waste of money. 

Also, ethanol is often used to RAISE the octane rating, though it produces less energy than gasoline. 

FlexFuel means the engine is designed to work at a different cylinder temperature range, with lower energy fuel, and to resist the damage caused by ethanol, not to work with lower octane.
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W8JX
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« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2014, 06:50:04 PM »

every car, truck, and small engine I have ever bought has a manufacturer recommendation for regular gas of 87 octane.  this is because I won't buy a whatever that demands premium.

They do because it is a death sentence to purchase by those that truly want to buy cheapest possible gas. All MPG tests are done with 93 octane by mandate. they do it for a reason

it basically depends on the compression ratio and head design as to whether a gas engine needs the higher octane to retard knock.

All modern engines need more than 87 but they have hi tech knock sensors that detect early signs of knock and retard spark before you hear it. Keeps owner like you in ignorant bliss.

some engines may have a sweet spot with 89, but premium 91+ is overkill for everything except a higher-performance engine design.

89 is really minimum needed real world and if you have a turbo charged car and not using 93 you are wasting fuel and performance big time,

over the lifetime of the engine, it's a significant cost factor.  go with what the manufacturer recommends,  they put millions of test and stand miles in testing to determine their warranty conditions.  it's a hugely bigger cost factor for them.

The 87 in manual is again for 87 octane kooliad drinkers and nothing more. They really silly part is that it cost only about 3 to 6% more for 89 or 93 yet it can easily boost MPG 10% and more and actually be cheaper to run on better fuel long term but many cannot see past price on pump. Myself I do not use 87 octane in anything here. 89 is base line here. BTW octane requirements increase with temperature. If car makers simply installed a light on dash that lite up every time that spark was retarded to prevent knock, you would see the light quickly.

Also octane does have effect on energy content but not way you think. Higher octane has slightly less energy and somewhat slower flame speeds and higher pre-ignition temps too. The slightly slower burn allows peak pressure to be developed ar optimum rod angles in higher compression motors
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
W8JX
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Posts: 12095




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« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2014, 06:57:34 PM »


FlexFuel means the engine is designed to work at a different cylinder temperature range, with lower energy fuel, and to resist the damage caused by ethanol, not to work with lower octane.


Not true at all. Flex fuel engines have larger injectors (because more fuel is needed) and lower compression than optimal for E85 to tolerate 87 with knock sensors. Also flex fuel engines have SS fuel lines and special flexible fuel lines that will not soften with alcohol. Throw in some wide band O2 sensors and you have it. Actual engine is same otherwise.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
KD0SFY
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Posts: 451




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« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2014, 07:05:55 PM »


FlexFuel means the engine is designed to work at a different cylinder temperature range, with lower energy fuel, and to resist the damage caused by ethanol, not to work with lower octane.


Not true at all. Flex fuel engines have larger injectors (because more fuel is needed) and lower compression than optimal for E85 to tolerate 87 with knock sensors. Also flex fuel engines have SS fuel lines and special flexible fuel lines that will not soften with alcohol. Throw in some wide band O2 sensors and you have it. Actual engine is same otherwise.

You basically repeated what I stated. 
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W9FIB
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« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2014, 03:40:13 AM »

Higher octane also makes better smelling fumes when idiots run their engines in the garage.
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Happy being an Amateur Extra!
Nothing says CB on my printed license.
Ares/Races but no lights or crown vic.
KC2UGV
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Posts: 529




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« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2014, 06:11:05 AM »

Let's ask the experts, in regards to octane ratings for engines:
http://theserviceadvisor.com/octane.htm
http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0210-paying-premium-high-octane-gasoline
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2012/10/regular-cars-that-take-premium-gasoline.html

So, really, it boils down to what the manufacturer states for the vehicle.  Higher octane levels may/may not show an appreciable difference in efficiency.
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W8JX
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Posts: 12095




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« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2014, 09:11:17 AM »

Higher octane also makes better smelling fumes when idiots run their engines in the garage.

Nope not at all. If you want a better buzz you need a winter blend which has a higher volatility (ie higher vapor pressure) than summer blends which have lowered volatility to reduce vapor lock tendencies.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
W8JX
Member

Posts: 12095




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« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2014, 09:16:58 AM »

Let's ask the experts, in regards to octane ratings for engines:
http://theserviceadvisor.com/octane.htm
http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0210-paying-premium-high-octane-gasoline
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2012/10/regular-cars-that-take-premium-gasoline.html

So, really, it boils down to what the manufacturer states for the vehicle.  Higher octane levels may/may not show an appreciable difference in efficiency.

Again if this claim had any merit then EPA MPG rating would not be conducted by mandate with 93 octane as they have for many many years nor would have Detroit fought so hard to keep that requirement off sticker on window. This has cost Ford dearly in that they have had to re-rate and lower MPG of several Eco Boost models because their MPG is much worse real world with 87 octane.  Detroit has long known that most are fixated on cheapest possible fuel and make sure its reflected in manual because most buyers lack the understanding that it is actually cheaper to use better fuel as they cannot see past price of fill up.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
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