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1-10 of 18 messages
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Stop the DX Duper?
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by AA8CH on May 18, 2008
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It's not possible, you say. There is no way to make him go away. He's here to stay. Running up one insurance contact after another, just in case, or just for fun, just because he's bored, or just because his station is a super mega behemoth and he wants to be a show off.
There is an answer. Delete his QSOs from the DXpedition logs. Make duplicate QSOs with BS7H or VU4AN on 20 CW? All your 20 CW QSOs are erased. Poof. Gone. Can't get 'em back. Sorry. Wait until next time, like the dupers tell all the little pistols.
Want an insurance contact? Go work the DX on a different band/mode, like the real DXers.
DX Duper will be sad, because he will have nothing to do. He can't fire up the 1.5 kilowatts to re-work the DXpedition for the 20th time. Maybe it will encourage DX Duper to turn off the rig, go upstairs and lift some weights to get rid of his beer belly. Who knows? It might even reform the lives of the low level dupers.
It would require a DXpedition with enormous stones to make this dream a reality. Obviously, it would come under tremendous criticism from the Duper community. But one never knows what may happen in the future. DX is! (and the essence of that phrase got lost somewhere on the road to duper-ville)
And thank you in advance for writing negative responses to this essay, you will be proof positive of that last sentence!
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RE: Stop the DX Duper?
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by N3OX on May 18, 2008
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"Want an insurance contact? Go work the DX on a different band/mode, like the real DXers. "
That's not an insurance contact.
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RE: Stop the DX Duper?
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by AF3Y on May 18, 2008
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Sounds like I hear a little tad of frustration there. Perhaps you would be content if the rest would just wait until YOU have made your QSO and only then they can have at it, right? Aint gonna happen. Maybe in DX Heaven, if there is such a place.
Dupers aint gonna go away either. But - surely 2 or 3 or 4 dupers are not going to be the REAL reason you did not get that rare one is it? I can honestly say that I personally have never duped, UNLESS I was uncertain if I was in the log. If I was not certain, you bet your butt I would call again. It might be a dupe every now and then, but that is just part of DX. After all, getting in the DX log is the reason you call in the first place. Good DX operators keep dupers to a minimum anyway, without using the Gestapo type tactics you suggest. Remember, they are in charge, right?
Work another band? Sure, but only after I am certain of the band I am working. I think we all would like to work rare DX on more than one band.
I doubt if you will find a lot of support here, but good luck. Gene
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RE: Stop the DX Duper?
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by NU4B on May 18, 2008
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It should be a rare event these days when someone needs an "insurance" contact. I've only had 1 time in the past 7 years that I thought I made a contact but wasn't in the log. And I'm running 5 watts to a wire or 2 element beam.
Chances are if your running any power at all and you have some good antennas you know if you made the contact.
If conditions are so bad you don't know if you made a QSO, then maybe waiting until conditions improve would be a better idea. That way those with propagaton can work them with less interference and when propagation favors you there will be less QRM to deal with. (AM I DREAMING OR WHAT?)
With more and more on line logs it should be less and less necessary to have an "insurance" contact.
Those that make duplicate QSO's just because they can (effectively denying others a shot) - they are what they are. And nobody will change they're attitude. If thay had any class they wouldn't be doing it in the first place and wait until pileups thin out. But there's no law, written or unwritten, saying they can't.
As far as how DX'peditions deal with it, its a hard call. I know how I would deal with it. But those that are running the DX'peditions (and paying for them) should be the ones making the decisions. And they have every right to do so. I know the Peter 1 dx'pedition advertised for people to call as many times as possible in an effort to generate QSO's. (I doubt they would have had a problem anyway given the demand for that entity) I lost out on that one - but that was my problem, not theirs.
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RE: Stop the DX Duper?
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by N3OX on May 18, 2008
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"
If conditions are so bad you don't know if you made a QSO, then maybe waiting until conditions improve would be a better idea"
It's not always about conditions. Sometimes you're in a simplex pileup the DX gets your call wrong at first, and you correct them, and when you hear "N***QRM QRM QRM*** TU P5/N3OX" you wonder if I ever did get your somewhat unusual NU4 call right ... because all the lids started calling before your contact was over.
The same thing can easily happen with static crashes on the low bands.
Also, if you "wait until condx improve," well, you run the risk of the operation going QRT unexpectedly.
I worked 3Y0X from my apartment twice on 30m because I wasn't sure the first one happened. It wasn't because of overall bad condx, it was because they got my call wrong at first (I was N3UMH at the time), and then there was bad timing of QSB while they were sending their confirmation. They actually had a good signal most of the time, but went into a fade when they were trying to confirm my call. These things happen. Dupes are allowable, even encouraged in these situations. As far as 3Y0X was concerned, according to my card, I worked them the first night. As far as I was concerned, I didn't. Should I be missing a 3Y/P confirmation on 30m because of that? For duping them with my 100W and invisible apartment antennas?
If we're going to gripe about "DX Dupers" I want to see some evidence that it's a frequent situation that the same guy is working an operation more than twice on a given band and mode. I hardly even believe it's a problem. It certainly hasn't been the case that I'm in the trenches trying to get some DXPedition three nights in a row with my 100W and I hear KX4DUP make a successful contact all three nights. I just never remember hearing that happen... where are you guys hearing it? I suppose it would torque me off a bit, so I think I'd remember.
As far as I can see from where I'm sitting as a guy who's been working DX for years with 100W and mostly homebrew antennas, and no tower taller than 30 feet, the "DX Duper" is a largely imaginary bogeyman.
The all-time-new-one DXPeditions I've missed out on in the last, I dunno, five or so years fall into one of three categories:
1) I didn't hear them because my station was too small/propagation was too bad (VU4AN, K7C, 9M6/N1UR come to mind)
2) I didn't hear them because I didn't even really have a station at the time. I was in a dorm in college, or moving and in between stations, or something. (D68C, 3C0R)
3) I just couldn't compete against demand and/or I was too weak for them to hear me. The people who got BS7H from W3 were mostly top stations. The few "DX Dupers" that might have been in the pileups there would have been replaced by some other big-station guy who could make it through in the little half hour window. I heard them two times, each for about a half hour on 20SSB. I called them. I tried for a QSO and I failed. I didn't get shut out by the DX Duper, I might not have even been shut out by another ham at all. There's no way for me to know if I was even strong enough to get through in the clear. How can anyone else be so sure?
Never once do I remember thinking "dangit, KX4DUP is stealing my chance at DX again!" Anyone want to *at least* share a *specific* anecdote where they've had this problem? 'Cause I don't believe in AA8CH's "duper community." Just a ghost story made up to frighten the poor little pistol, I think.
73,
Dan
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RE: Stop the DX Duper?
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by W5CPT on May 18, 2008
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There is a very easy way to do what you want.
YOU go on a DXPedition, YOU work the pileups the way YOU want, YOU log the contacts and YOU delete the QSOs YOU don't care for. You can delete the Dupes, the Calling over everyone elses, the Tail Enders who are closer to the middle than they are to the end and all the other anoying Pile Up gremlins.
I have heard the DX say, or actually send in CW, "N1KGW B4" and move on to the next contact, so some of the DX have eliminated Dupes to some degree. (callsign changed to protect the guilty)
I would like to hear the DX once say "N1KGW, if you don't wait your turn, I will never put you in the log." (same callsign comment).
I guess to hear that I will have to go on a DXPedition and do things my way. ;^)
Clint - W5CPT - just part of the pile up -
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RE: Stop the DX Duper?
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by N3OX on May 18, 2008
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"I would like to hear the DX once say "N1KGW, if you don't wait your turn, I will never put you in the log." "
VP6DX was doing that on 160SSB, pretty literally.
It was awesome to listen to. Stuff similar to "OK guys, when I call the Kilo Two, I'm not calling a Whiskey Five or a November Seven, I'm calling a Kilo Two. I know what I'm hearing"
Yet I was too weak to get through on that band/mode. Guess I should blame the DX Duper community ;-)
Dan
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RE: Stop the DX Duper?
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by KF5ER on May 18, 2008
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I've heard big gun stations make a contact and
less than five minutes later are calling again.
Maybe they weren't sure, maybe they just wanted
the rest of the world to know they could do it.
Listening to a rare DX working by the numbers I
heard a W3 station call and call with no luck.
The DX called for#4's and suddenly the W3 station
was portable four. He got the contact. Same with
tagging /mobile on your call, gets the DX's
attention.
I will get a insurance contact if I'm not sure
and its the only band I've got them on.
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RE: Stop the DX Duper?
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by NU4B on May 18, 2008
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Hi Dan,
Some good points. I did notice on the 3Y0X logs that 10% of their QSO's were band/mode dupes. I don't know if that's high since few dxpeditions show that info. But in this case that was about 8,000 contacts that could have been available for other stations. That would mean 10% of the time operators didn't know if they had a good QSO. That's an astounding figure. They had 26,000+ unique calls worked. So a tad less than 1/3 of the stations worked could have made a duplicate band/mode QSO. Or maybe there was 4.000 stations making 2 or more duplicate band and mode duplicate contacts.
If half the dupes were legit (bad callsigns, QRM, QSB, etc..) that still left 4,000 QSO slots for stations that might have had a shot.
"If condx are so bad you don't know if you made the QSO" - My point was that it should be a rare event when you don't know if you made the QSO. If it happens alot then maybe some thought and research is needed to why its happening so often. If, as in the case of 3Y0X, 10% (or even 5%) of the QSO's couldn't be verified by the calling station, then something is wrong. (I'm not picking on the 3Y gang - they just happenned to do a great job in reporting QSO statistics)
If on the other hand the vast majority of these duplicate band/mode contacts were "because I can" QSO's, then I think its a basic lack of class thing. There's nothing illegal about it, but it would be a good thing to give others a shot to work a rare DX station since you've already worked it once or twice or three times on that band and mode.
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RE: Stop the DX Duper?
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by N3OX on May 18, 2008
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"
If on the other hand the vast majority of these duplicate band/mode contacts were "because I can" QSO's, then I think its a basic lack of class thing"
I agree, that's pretty bad etiquette, but I'm not sure even then that I agree that each of those QSO's steals a QSO from another ham who wants one. It's just not that simple. Even if you're going head to head with a *known duper,* and lose, it doesn't count as him "stealing your QSO" if you couldn't have managed to get through in the clear.
Also, if some big gun is sitting there listening to a DXpedition CQ and CQ and CQ and CQ with no answers, there's not really anything wrong with duping the expedition to say hi, especially if the DXpedition decided to encourage it like 3Y0X did. That still shows up in the stats as a "dupe"
I just think it's really hard to judge from QSO stats how prevalent the damaging sort of duping is, if there's even any such thing! There are lots of reasons why I don't believe that there's any such thing as 1-for-1 QSO stealing, but that's almost a seperate issue.
In that sense, I don't like AA8CH's characterization of the "DX Duper community" like there's some vast injustice being thrust upon the little pistols.
Even if it were true, what good does it do to convince the little pistols that the big guns are shutting them out of the DX game? (especially because it's not true) I say, forget about the dupers because a lot of them are having, in my opinion, innocuous fun, and learn to *BEAT* the big guns in the pileups to get the contacts you need.
Focus on getting through the wall of stations, don't try to convince some of them to stand aside. The former is much more productive.
73,
Dan
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