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Waht should be done with Advanced class Lic's
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by W3DCB on June 19, 2009
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I was first licensed in the early 70's as a Novice in junior high school as a young teen. I took the Tech./General class license tests (CW and written) at the FCC field office at Houstin Street in NYC in the mid-70s also as a young teen. The code test required one full minute (out of 5) of perfect copy of every letter sent in order to pass, if I remember correctly. There certainly were no multiple choice questions on the code test (13 WPM) which I took...Nothing to figure out in context. I am pretty sure that the code test consisted of random 5 letter groups...although I believe that the Extra tests which I took consisted of "text" consisting of FCC regulations (legaleze), not a simulated QSO. I tried and failed the 22 WPM test a couple of times even though I was easily able to copy better than that speed at home when the pressure was off. So, I never got the Extra at the time. The written tests that I took for both the Tech./General and Advanced Class licenses were of course already multiple choice for years. So, I did not have to draw a Colpits oscilator, etc., or a tetrode or transistor amplifier as the previous generation had to do. I just had to identify them and understand them. The exams which are offered these days in a totally different environment are MUCH easier that the exams which I took. The Extra test offered now is much less difficult than anything I took for my Advanced class license in the mid-70s. I think that my Advanced license should be commuted to an Extra class license. I have no feelings of superiority here...I just think that it would be fair. I welcome all new hams and hope for more to join the ranks...just hoping for fair treatment. It is out of principle that since becoming active once again in ham radio that I do not take the Extra exam. What do you think? I have a feeling that I am going to be slammed here...73, Daniel C. Baral, wb2mjb.
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RE: Waht should be done with Advanced class Lic's
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by AA4PB on June 19, 2009
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Since the tests are now much easier, why not just take the current extra exam??
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RE: Waht should be done with Advanced class Lic's
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by KB1LKR on June 19, 2009
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Or just keep & operate w/ your Advanced. Guess it comes down to how much you want/need the extra (no pun intended) bit at the bottom of the HF bands (and/or ability to VE Extra exams), vs. wanting to continue to have a now unavailable Advanced license as a badge of seniority, or history, or whatever.
I always enjoy the stories of those who sat the exams at the FCC offices. I'm relieved I didn't have to on the one hand, yet feel I missed something -- a right of passage? -- on the other (for I could have taken the exams in Boston about the same time and at similar age as you had I really wanted to. Lack of knowing any hams and other distractions of a teen, and I didn't untill many years later. In the end it doesn't matter on the air.
Agree it doesn't seem (to me anyway) fair that Advanced license holders are not now granted the same privileges that current Extras have -- though I'd hate to see all the Advanced licensees license descriptors changed to "Extra Class" in the ULS -- for then a little piece of historic information would be lost; but it is what it is.
As you say the Extra's not that hard relative to what it once was, so what the heck, just shrug & take it at a convenient time -- you can't fight city hall.
Welcome back, and maybe catch you on the air someday OM!
73,
KB1LKR -- Steve
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RE: Waht should be done with Advanced class Lic's
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by N2EY on June 19, 2009
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WB2MJB writes: "The code test required one full minute (out of 5) of perfect copy of every letter sent in order to pass, if I remember correctly."
Yes, that was the old standard. The examiner had to find 65 consecutive correct legible characters for a pass.
You also had to send to the examiner's satisfaction.
WB2MJB: "I am pretty sure that the code test consisted of random 5 letter groups"
I don't think so. The regs of that time required "plain text", and all the FCC code tests for an amateur license I ever knew of were plain English.
WB2MJB: "I tried and failed the 22 WPM test"
There was never a 22 wpm test. The old Extra required 20 wpm - 100 consecutive correct legible characters.
WB2MJB: "The exams which are offered these days in a totally different environment are MUCH easier that the exams which I took."
The testing method is different, yes. But is the test *material* really that much easier, or does it only seem that way because of 30+ years experience?
As I remember the old tests, the subjects covered were rather limited but they were covered in some depth. The current exams cover a lot more subjects but in less detail. Which is "harder" depends on one's point of view, I suppose.
I think what made the old exams *seem* harder was the fact that not only didn't we know the exact Q&A in advance, but if we failed, even by one question, we'd have to wait a month to try again. So there was more pressure and a tendency to be as prepared as possible.
WB2MJB: "The Extra test offered now is much less difficult than anything I took for my Advanced class license in the mid-70s. I think that my Advanced license should be commuted to an Extra class license."
Why? If the modern Extra is so easy, why not just pass it?
Not trying to slam you or anything like that. I just don't understand the principle you're concerned about.
There's also the practical standpoint. You could probably find a VE session and pass the current Extra in a very short time. Maybe a month at the outside.
But FCC moves slowly when it comes to rules changes. A petition filed today would probably take 2 years or more to go through the whole NPRM and comment process - and that's if FCC wants to do it. Heck, it took more than 3-1/2 years for FCC to drop the last remaining code test, and it was clear from the start that they wanted to!
Historically, FCC has repeatedly refused to automatically-upgrade license classes, at least in the past couple of decades. There have been several petitions asking for various auto-upgrades, such as Novice to Tech or General, Tech Plus to General, Advanced to Extra, pre-1968 General to Extra, etc., but in all cases FCC has said no. So you'd be facing an uphill go with little chance of success, IMHO.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Waht should be done with Advanced class Lic's
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by W7ETA on June 19, 2009
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Lets see......
If I remember correctly, The FCC decided that if one wanted an Extra ticket, one had to pass the Extra test.
Protests about FCC decisions go to the FCC.
Complaints about FCC decisions go into the Speak Out section.
73
Bob
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RE: Waht should be done with Advanced class Lic's
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by W3LK on June 19, 2009
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If one wants the prestige/privileges that go with an Extra Class license, one should take the Extra Class exam. The rest of us did.
Sounds like a no-brainer to me. :)
73,
Lon - W3LK
Naugatuck, Connecticut
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RE: Waht should be done with Advanced class Lic's
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by W3DCB on June 21, 2009
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Oh my goodness! I accidentally wrote 22 WPM instead of 20 WPM...Well, that certainly removes any of my credibility. Since that was obviously a typo, why even comment? Very silly. As far as the 13 WPM code test goes, my memory was of random 5 letter groups, but I could be mistaken. It was many years ago and my memory may fail me in this respect. Since I preceded the statement with, "If I remember correctly" or something like that, obviously, I was stating at the outset that I may not have remembered correctly...So, again, it is silly to comment if you are not absolutely sure either yourself. I do remember the 20 WPM test though consisting of plain text consiting of FCC regs. Your depiction of the theory exams from that time is way off. Just read some of the license prep books. I still have mine from those years as well as some modern prep books. Much more depth was indeed required. Of course I had readied myself for the Extra theory exam assuming that I would pass the 20 WPM code test. However, I got too nervous and did not get the chance to return. I was a youngster and kids often do not handle testing situations in the best way...some adults too. As far as taking the Extra theory exam now, I may do so in the future. However, I do not think that it is fair to new hams coming on board now that they do not have access to an intermediate license exam which would afford them more bandwidth. Yes, they could get an Extra Class License, but I do not think it is fair to those who might not be able to pass the Extra, even though I think the Extra of today is not nearly as difficult as years before. Furthermore, my Advanced exam WAS more difficult than today's Extra. So, for me the question still exists about what to do with us Advanced class hams...you can't make us Generals and the restriction from bandwidth is unfair to others coming on board today...Well, just my opinion...Also, if my statements are to be picked apart word by word like some peer reviewed article, one might consider the context of what was said as well as the complete statement. Boy, do I dislike that sort of thing...but that is just me...73 all.
Daniel C. Baral wb2mjb
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RE: What should be done with Advanced Licensess
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by N2EY on June 21, 2009
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WB2MJB writes: "Since that was obviously a typo, why even comment?"
Because some folks might not know it was a typo. I've seen folks claim and defend all sorts of things about the old tests, such as the idea that the old Extra code test was 25 wpm. It turned out they were repeating a typo they'd seen somewhere or a mis-statement by an OT.
WB2MJB: "So, again, it is silly to comment if you are not absolutely sure either yourself."
I'm absolutely sure that all the Morse code tests I took were plain language, not code groups.
WB2MJB: "Your depiction of the theory exams from that time is way off."
I don't think so - I took them as a teenager too. As I wrote, they covered fewer subjects but in more detail.
What has really changed is the test method.
WB2MJB: "Just read some of the license prep books."
I have - I've also taken the various practice tests.
WB2MJB: "I was a youngster and kids often do not handle testing situations in the best way...some adults too."
Agreed! But I think kids have an advantage in that they take tests in school all the time.
WB2MJB: "However, I do not think that it is fair to new hams coming on board now that they do not have access to an intermediate license exam which would afford them more bandwidth."
I think we'd be better off with more license classes, too. But FCC didn't see it that way back in 1999.
What really bothers me about the loss of the Advanced to new issues is the way it was handled.
The original 1998 FCC NPRM proposed four license classes be available to new issues: Tech, General, Advanced, Extra. But when the Report and Order came out, they closed off the Advanced too. But IMHO they really didn't say why.
It used to take two written exams totalling 90 questions to go from General to Extra. Now it takes one 40 question exam.
WB2MJB: "Yes, they could get an Extra Class License, but I do not think it is fair to those who might not be able to pass the Extra, even though I think the Extra of today is not nearly as difficult as years before."
Before the 13 and 20 wpm code tests were dropped, there was at least one 8 year old with an Extra. Since then, the record has been lowered to 7 years old. We're talking third-graders. Granted, they're very bright and motivated third-graders, but how difficult can the tests be if elementary-school kids can pass them?
Back in the old days of FCC testing there were hams who made Advanced and Extra before high school. That says to me that the tests were never that hard.
WB2MJB: "Furthermore, my Advanced exam WAS more difficult than today's Extra."
I'm sure you remember it that way. What I'm saying is that without the actual tests to compare side-by-side, it's an opinion, not a fact.
WB2MJB: "So, for me the question still exists about what to do with us Advanced class hams...you can't make us Generals and the restriction from bandwidth is unfair to others coming on board today"
Why not just pass the Extra and get full privileges? That's what FCC seems to want.
btw, I remember those times very well. Here's why:
I got my Novice in October 1967 through the volunteer examiner program. I was 13 years old and had just started 7th grade.
In the early summer of 1968, when I was between 8th and 9th grades, I went to the FCC office and tried for the General. The examiner couldn't read my longhand well enough to find 65 consecutive correct legible characters, but he did find 25, so I was allowed to take the Tech/General written exam. I wound up with both Novice and Technician licenses, which was common then. The examiner said all I needed to do was come back and pass the 13 wpm code for General.
So I went home and taught myself to block-print really fast (30+ wpm) and copied W1AW until I could copy the 18 wpm bulletins solid from start to finish. Went back to the FCC office later in the summer of 1968 and passed the 13 wpm code.
But just as I was about to leave, the FCC examiner said "Kid, why don't you try the Advanced while you're here?" There was no way a 14-year-old ham would say no to The Man From FCC, so I did, even though I hadn't studied for any written exam in a couple of months. Passed it and got an Advanced instead of a General.
In those days the FCC required two years' experience as a General, Conditional or Advanced before they'd even let you try the Extra test. So when I got home from FCC I figured out the date of the first exam session in 1970 when I could try Extra. When that day came, I was back at the FCC office - the only one there that day for Extra. So I had the FCC examiner's undivided attention for the 20 wpm code test. (Yes, I passed the Extra on the first try).
Doesn't seem like 39 years ago.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: What should be done with Advanced Licensess
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by N3FY on June 21, 2009
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Daniel,
In 3 hours I go to take my Extra test. For 33 years I wasted the best of Ham Radio as a General because I had not arrived to a point where I was ready to push past all the excuses and just get it done.
I've studied on an off for 2 years, but never to the level of being able to take a test.
Enter HamTestOnline (I'm going to write a review). In 34 hours of study over the last two weeks...I have slugged through it to the the point where I'm making nothing less than 100's.
All this to make two points:
1. I would not be very happy if the Extra frequencies were suddenly flooded with Advanced class operators after I have worked for and earned my Extra according to the only set of rules that applied when I did.
2. Spend $35 and 35 hours and earn your license if you want it...if you have a basic understanding of the material it shouldn't take you as long as it took me....what's the big deal?
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RE: What should be done with Advanced Licensess
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by K2YO on June 21, 2009
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Robert,
Please report back you success so we can celebrate with you!
Bernie
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