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1-10 of 43 messages
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Local Jurisdiction and RF Compliance
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by K5END on November 6, 2009
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In another thread, WG7X raised a very valid point. I thought his point is worth its own worthwhile topic and thread. Here it is.
He says (paraphrased) if a policeman tells me to stop transmitting and I disregard the instructions, I might get arrested. Vindicated later yeah, mayyyybe, but still arrested. Nothing like spending a night in jail to ruin your day, or so they tell me.
Like they say, "Ya can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride."
I'm sure the laws vary by State, but I think it goes further than that. I'm not so sure I would win such a case in court. If a policeman tells me to stop transmitting from my home or mobile, even though I am not doing anything otherwise illegal, it may be a crime for me to disregard the instructions. Whether his reasons are justified or not probably doesn't matter at the time he tells me to shut down.
It's probably one of those "obey now and complain later" situations. In either case, there is no QSL card worth a night in jail.
On the other side of the coin, I'm not aware of any law in THIS State that says I have to answer my door when a policeman knocks. I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that I don't have to answer the door of my HOME for anyone. The sacred "Castle Doctrine" laws in Texas give a lot of special rights to someone INSIDE the walls of his own home.
Besides, if he has a warrant or otherwise does not need my permission to enter, he's not going to spend a lot of time waiting for me to answer the door anyway.
With apologies for the rambling premise in this post, what say the experts?
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RE: Local Jurisdiction and RF Compliance
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by N5LRZ on November 6, 2009
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Re END...
IF I understand the law properly, a valid signed search warrant (signed by a judge duely and properly per law) means the police can break down your door after announcing themselves and giving reasonable time to enter.
When a search warrent is issued properly and per the law the individual no longer has any right to privacy under the law.
WELCOME to the NOT so new world where the LAW is superior to Liberterans.
When a law officer says Open UP Search Warrent you had damn well better F***** open up that door and step aside because the police are in complete charge NOT YOURSELF.
AND IF anyone says but I have a rifle, pistol or other weapon I strongly urge you NOT to even think about showing it. POLICE have the authority to shoot to kill when confrunted by weapon wielding people.
BUT IF yall want to be stupid/possibly dead brave go ahead. Show the nice officer your 9 mil semi auto.
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RE: Local Jurisdiction and RF Compliance
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by K5END on November 6, 2009
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That doesn't answer the question I posed. But thanks for your take on it.
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RE: Local Jurisdiction and RF Compliance
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by K7UNZ on November 6, 2009
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Having read it three times, I would have to ask....
What, exactly, is your question???
Jim/k7unz
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RE: Local Jurisdiction and RF Compliance
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by K5END on November 6, 2009
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The main question would be hard to answer because each State may have different laws on this.
But for any given jurisdiction, if a municipal, county or state, non-FCC or non-Federal officer knocks on the door of my house and tells me to cease transmitting either with or without explanation, does he have that authority, and is it illegal for me to disregard his directive? My guess is it is probably unlawful to disregard and continue transmitting.
Here is why I think he has the authority. Public safety. For example, there may be an EMS crew next door trying to de-fib a patient and their EKG or other electronic stuff won't work whenever I transmit.
Now, on the pragmatic approach, of course it would be foolish to disregard the directive, because he may have the authority to take you into custody. (Even if he doesn't have the authority to take someone into custody doesn't mean he won't do it anyway.)
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RE: Local Jurisdiction and RF Compliance
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by WB2WIK on November 6, 2009
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I'd ask: "How do you know I was transmitting, or even have the ability to transmit, anything?"
They'd need a signed search warrant to find out. If they had one, I'd let them in.
If they didn't have one, I'd laugh my butt off.
Ham gear doesn't stop emergency medical equipment from operating properly. In fact, all that stuff passes very severe immunity testing at levels that are higher at ground level than anything "we" could produce running 1500W into elevated antennas.
Remember, most of that equipment needs to be fully functional if they were engaged in lifesaving services at the site of a 50kW broadcast transmitter, with the tower fifty feet away.
Local jurisdiction regarding ham radio normally ends with "Disturbing the Peace" ordinances. If you are screaming into the microphone with your window open and your neighbor has a legitimate complaint about that, the police can site you for a violation of the local peace ordinance -- and that might be justified.
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RE: Local Jurisdiction and RF Compliance
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by K5END on November 6, 2009
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"Ham gear doesn't stop emergency medical equipment from operating properly..."
I know that and you know that, but you know how people freak out about ham radio "interference." The med equipment was a bad example.
I think I would just tell the officer that I am communicating with the planet Xantar and offer him an aluminum hat. Hey, I might even get to be on the 6:00 news. :)
'Local jurisdiction regarding ham radio normally ends with "Disturbing the Peace" ordinances. If you are screaming into the microphone with your window open and your neighbor has a legitimate complaint about that, the police can site you for a violation of the local peace ordinance -- and that might be justified.'
Good point. But we don't need microphones to scream with the window open.
In fact, I used to date this crazy wild chick who would really scream when...uh...er...oops.
Oh, wait. I got it. When she saw a spider! Yeah, that's it. A spider. She likes to scream at arachnids.
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RE: Local Jurisdiction and RF Compliance
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by N3OX on November 6, 2009
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We are very lucky to live in a society where we are generally free from wrongful seizure. But it's hard to make sure it exists without citizens taking the occasional risk and exercising such rights.
I generally think that for the smooth functioning of a lawful but free society, I should cooperate with the police. However, there are some situations in which some officers overstep the bounds of their authority, and make it clear that "you should just obey" while they are not informing you of a specific crime that you are committing or dangerous situation that you are exacerbating. I understand it and forgive it as a mistake made in **truly** stressful situations, but it can't be allowed to happen routinely nor can we routinely make excuses for it.
I also recognize that, given my demographic, I have vast privilege in my interactions with law enforcement. That privilege will likely increase as I age. I am probably fairly likely to emerge largely unscathed from an short incarceration for which I committed no crime. Furthermore, the officer in the wrong would probably not. Not everyone can say that.
I haven't been to jail. I don't intend to go. And generally speaking, I'm a nice, cooperative guy who appreciates the job our fine folks in law enforcement do.
But I have rights forbidding my seizure for failing to obey arbitrary orders, as do we all, and as reasonably well off white male, I also have some extra immunity to the consequences of exercising those rights by refusing to do what a police officer tells me to do if I neither see a reason nor have been given a reason.
I also know of no law that endows local law enforcement with the right to terminate my transmissions. I can think of lots of reasons why an officer of the law might *think* they have the right to terminate my transmissions (in particular, something like confusion about ham radio vs. CB and a furious next door neighbor who calls the cops every time he hears me in his piece of crap unshielded $10,000 TV )
If a local law enforcement officer knocks on my door and ASKS me to terminate my transmissions because of a legitimate matter and is willing to discuss with me the reasons why I should do that, and is willing to discuss my probable legal right to NOT stop transmitting, to talk about Part 97 and Part 15 with respect to my neighbor, there should be no problem. We'll have a discussion, I'll shut down, or not, depending.
If instead I'm greeted with a spurious authoritarian situation, like the guy knocks on my car window just for being parked in downtown DC chatting on the radio and feeds me some fiction about security rules based not in law but in vague "policy", maybe I'll take one for the team and stand up for our rights.
All depends.
73
Dan
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RE: Local Jurisdiction and RF Compliance
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by N5LRZ on November 7, 2009
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RE WIK...
EVER hear of direction finding equipment.
AND once they have got you located all it takes is a vehicle sitting a few yards away on the street to say YUP THATS HIM.
But probably your neighbor will be calling in to the police dept to make a complaint before that making the direction finding truck not necessary.
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RE: Local Jurisdiction and RF Compliance
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by N5LRZ on November 7, 2009
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Re END...
re re "But for any given jurisdiction, if a municipal, county or state, non-FCC or non-Federal officer knocks on the door of my house "
And that would be correct if it WERE your neighbor. Your neighbor has absolutely no fcc rights when it comes to watching TV or listening to the sterio. In that instance you are absolutely correct.
BUT if that person flashes credentials of Law Enforcement be it the FCC or Local Law then you had GD damn well better say YES SIR HOW CAN I HELP YOU SIR in a very cheery voice.
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