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eHam.net Survey
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Survey Question
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How do you feel about working with surface mount components these days?
Posted: Oct 30, 2008
(1299 votes, 56 comments)
by VK5LA
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Survey Results
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No way! - I can't work with Surface mount
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32% (416)
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Love 'em - small is beautiful!
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11% (137)
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I can take it or leave it...
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33% (428)
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I haven't had to deal with surface mount yet...
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24% (318)
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Survey Comments
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SMT is E-A-S-Y
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I believe it's human nature to be afraid of the unknown. This is why there are those who say it's too hard. I didn't shy away from it.
As the RF Engineering Tech for an OEM, SMT work & rework has been part of my job for several years. The smallest components require the use of an inexpensive microscope and soldering iron w/ small diameter tip and 0.010" diameter solder (or solder paste w/ hot air pen). With even modest equipment, it CAN be done. My component count has to be several thousand by now!
Of course, I enjoy working with 'hollow state' as well. ;-)
73,
Bryan WA7PRC
Posted by
WA7PRC
on April 4, 2009
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Try it - It's actually easier!
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Don't be fooled by the "mystique" or the really small size... Get some good Wal-mart glasses and a nice soldering station with a really fine tip. Forget the exotic methods and just solder them on! If you mess up - toss the part - it's just 5 cents!
Posted by
AB0Z
on March 27, 2009
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if i have to i will
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i find them helping hands from radio shack and a sewing needle are your friend some rework stations are getting cheaper .. it's the way its going to stay get use to it i do miss being able to work on something without a schmatic you can just trace the foil serfice mount not so much if your able to you are darn good my hats off to ya
Matt AC8AC
Posted by
AC8AC
on January 14, 2009
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Clueless over the technigues, materials and equipment used, and haven't found much in the way of tutorials ans supplies regarding it either. Some day, maybe
Posted by
N4ZAW
on December 16, 2008
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Additional note
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For J-lead and other chips:
You can use a heat gun to remove many chips.
You will need a small attachment that has
a small tube down the middle and diverts the
bulk of the air to the sides. You have to be
careful not to blow away any of the other
components next them. One trick is to put
Kapton tape around the device (expensive
heat resistant tape), to keep the components
from blowing away and damaging the board.
The heat gun method works well with J-lead
components.
Other ways to remove devices is to use the
flood method. With a blade tip, flood the
all the leads with extra solder. Move the
soldering iron back and forth and slowly
lift each side with a pick. Don't use much
force or else you'll pull up the pads. You
can clean up with solder wick afterward.
This can be used with s-lead and other
devices.
It's easy to rip up pads and delaminate
boards if you use too much heat or too
much pressure. It's good to practice with
junk boards like old computer peripherals.
With large devices that use the board as
a heatsink or have a large ground plane...
You will need to spend some time pre-heating
the board before removing the devices. You
might be able to get away with using a large
800 degree blade tip or you will have to
use the heat gun method (with focused heat).
I won't touch BGA's. Also, Some devices that
use a pad underneath the device are extremely
difficult to remove and reinstall. There
is no access to the pad unless the engineer
let the pad extend beyond the device. Some
of these devices really require specialized
tools to work with. Those devices are not
recommended for the faint of heart.
Good luck and happy soldering!
John
N1ERF
Posted by
N1ERF
on November 18, 2008
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Not a big deal
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Thru-Hole components and point-to-point
wiring is fast and easy. Surface mount
components require a steady hand, small
soldering tip, a good set of tweezers
and a BIG magnifier.
I work with SMT components on a daily basis
but haven't worked with anything smaller
than 0402 components. Anything smaller
would be extremely difficult to work with.
Even though I'm IPC certified, I would
leave the smaller devices to the professionals.
Beside the need for a steady hand, the biggest down side is the need for a bigger
magnifying glass. A binocular scope is out
of the question for home use due to price.
My eyes just aren't keeping up with the technology though... *8^)
Posted by
N1ERF
on November 18, 2008
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Surface Mount
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I'm 72 and do have to use a magnifying visor to work on surface mount, but have a number of radios and other equipment that employ surface mount parts. Also, as a retired aerospace electronics design engineer, I did a lot of SM design, which required hands-on prototype testing. It's here to stay, and if you want to stay up to date, you need to at least learn about it. Hey, I come from the vacuum tube era, and I didn't have any problem adjusting.
Alton
W4VFZ
Posted by
W4VFZ
on November 16, 2008
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SMT
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I really hate to comment in the negative about anyone's voice but whey KC2FTN says that you are NOT a real ham if you do not work with SMTs then he is totally and completely wrong and very self centered. I am sure that I am not the only one that does not work with the small devices and I am sure that the sightless hams amongst us are REAL hams and do not work with them. Sorry but that is how I feel
Larry K9LWI
Posted by
K9LWI
on November 15, 2008
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Surface mount
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I am a broadcast engineer and have to say the younger people in the field has the advantage although, at 62, with my large magnifying glass I can still replace the failed parts on a Harris FM module. I would say if the younger engineers or ham operators want to make good money, start early and get some experience working on equipment. It's a good field and gives you great pride knowing you can work on small pc boards.
Go for it
K8BBE
Posted by
K8BBE
on November 15, 2008
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SMT's
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If you can't deal with Surface Mount Technology, then you're not a real ham.
You might be able to tap-out an antiquated
mode/code, but you're still stuck in the dark ages. Please catch-up to the 21st century. If you're not part of the solution, get the HELL out of the way!
Posted by
KC2FTN
on November 14, 2008
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Well....
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I've popped a few 1-ohm resistors off a board for Mars/CAP mods, but that's about it.
I'm too old (62) and too shaky (at least I quit smoking about a dozen years ago), but I suppose I could do it. I don't homebrew enough anymore to really care.
I've got a buddy who does commercial radio repair. Pudgy little fingers. I don't know how he does it with stripline parts and other relatively HUGE components, but he does it. We haven't talked about SMT's, but I expect he's doing it now.
With the right tools and education, it's just a skill....
Regards
Posted by
K8LEA
on November 14, 2008
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SMT
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It's a challenge. Isn't challenge what this hobby is all about. If anything in ham radio isn't a challenge, it isn't worth doing. You need the right tools and a steady hand. If you lack either or both, SMT isn't for you.
For those interested in learning how to work with SMT, this is a good SMT video tutorial:
http://www.curiousinventor.com/guides/Surface_Mount_Soldering/101
73,
OLDPHARTE
Posted by
OLDEPHARTE
on November 14, 2008
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SMT
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Seems I have lived through three distinct methods of electronic construction:
Point to point wiring with terminal strips and tube sockets.
Original pc board techniques with through mounted components
PC boards with surface mount components.
When I started out my soldering iron was a Weller 100w gun. Now I have a temperature controlled soldering station and various magnifying devices. Too bad my vision is not what is used to be. i doubt that the world will go back to point to point wiring because MY vision is deteriorating!
Posted by
N6XA
on November 12, 2008
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surface mount stinks
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I have been an electronics repair technician
since the tube chasis days.
I can still remember my surprise when the first 48 pin Micros started showing up.
Now those things look like giants compared to modern surface mount chips.
Surface mount technology has all but made consumer electronics a throw away proposition.
Soon components will reach the molecular level and be impressed onto substrate that just looks like a strip of carbon, but actually contains millions of semiconductor junctions.
Gee, I remember in the good ole days, if you lost horizontal output on your
TV you just yanked out the 6MJ6 out of the cage and plugged in a new one!
Ahhhhh the good ole days!
Posted by
N8EKT
on November 12, 2008
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Surface Mount
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"I'm 16, and I'm gonna have to agree with the other posts, it's
for the young."
Michael,
I'm 66 and just recently retired as an LMR technician. I worked with surface mount every day and still do as a hobby. While it does require a slightly different skill set, it certainly is not beyond the reach of anyone who wishes to put in a little time learning it. While I concede that there are some endeavors which are best left to younger people, I have found none of them in electronics.
Tom
Posted by
WB6DGN
on November 12, 2008
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Surface Mount
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I'm 16, and I'm gonna have to agree with the other posts, it's
for the young.
Posted by
W4MJA
on November 11, 2008
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SRI ABT 2X POST
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Sorry about double post, I refreshed when I should not have done so. If one of the moderators could remove one of them it would be great. Tnx N7LTH
Posted by
N7LTH
on November 11, 2008
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Surface mount
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Although I have not yet delved into SMT but plan to in the near future, it certainly appears that the very close spacing of "leads" on IC's, etc. is a big challenge for homebrewing since it probably requires the hands of a brain surgeon and good near-vision. But one out of two for me ain't bad since I am very myopic, about -9 diopters average left/right eyes (no more than two here)... If my renewed interest in ham radio continues the way it's been lately perhaps I could put my Magoo-ness to good use in our local amateur radio club, assisting with SMT mounting, etc.
On a semi-related note, I'd like to see an exploded view of that nifty SMD pick-and-place gizmo featured in the 2000 ARRL Handbook so I can duplicate it, for some reason I'm struggling with a 3D concept of it...
If/when I start experimenting with UHF+ stuff- I see a huge advantage to SMT.
Well, enough ramblings from me...
73
N7LTH
Posted by
N7LTH
on November 11, 2008
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I have to agree
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I have to agree
"SMT is for the young, us older folks can't see or do it. The eyes are not what they used to be"
Posted by
N3JBH
on November 11, 2008
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"I'm seeing these days is that older rigs with SMT are now experiencing cold solder joints that make for simple repair - if you know what you're doing."
Not so much "cold solder joints" as the dual pressures of environmental concerns (amount of lead in the environment0 and economics (cost of solder) have resulted in connections to inflexible objects (the chips) that are just not strong enough. With normal flexing in the board, the connections break. Also, some poorly made chips (can you say "offshore"?) break at the junction of the substrate and the metal end caps. Your observation is very insightful, though, usually quick and easy repairs.
Tom
Posted by
WB6DGN
on November 10, 2008
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Surface mount
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"SMT is for the young, us older folks can't see or do it. The eyes are not what they used to be."
A GOOD magnifier lamp (not the office store junk) or, if you're planning on doing a lot of it, a 3D microscope, quickly solves that problem. If you really enjoy homebrew/repair, don't let a minor obstacle like that get in your way.
Tom
Posted by
WB6DGN
on November 10, 2008
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I can do it
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I can solder the SMTs, I take my glasses off, and I can focus down to that size pretty easily. I got a DDS-60 soldered up with no special instruments at all. I got a new normal tip for my soldering iron, and very small, fine solder, and it is doable, not easy, but doable. I found that I cannot hold the SMT component in place, so I quit trying. Tin the pads, put the component in place, and heat up one pad. The component will squirm, straighten up in place with an exacto knife, and remove the iron. Heat up the other pad, and fix up the solder joints as necessary.
The DDS-60 did stretch my method to it's max, but it works, and I know my limits now.
Ed KC8SBV
Posted by
KC8SBV
on November 9, 2008
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SMT is for the young, us older folks can't see or do it. The eyes are not what they used to be.
Posted by
KB2SMS
on November 8, 2008
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smaller is better?
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I am not getting any smaller so why is everything in this world getting smaller?I especially like my car radio which sits less than 3 feet from my field of vision and yet you must use a "remote control" because the stinking lettering is too small to read on the controls. I also like the very very small knobs and buttons spaced so close together that i press more than one of them at the same time accidentally.Love my boat anchors ,big dials,large parts,big knobs,easy to read !LOL
Posted by
N2BIX
on November 7, 2008
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SMD
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SMDs can be fun and fairly easy to use. With a smaller footprint then throughhole parts they make circuit implementation much smaller and neater.
However, I do have a limit - nothing smaller than 0603.
73,
Ray, AA7IH
Posted by
AA7IH
on November 6, 2008
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SMD
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I have worekd on several SMD devices over the years and it actually seems easier than i thought. Sure the parts are tiny but after you get the hang of it and practice it becomes easy.
Posted by
K9FON
on November 4, 2008
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I love 'em.
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Being nearsighted, I've enjoyed SMD circuits from day one, when an instructor at a Motorola training session in 1985 told the class "You can't replace SMD transistors without hot tweezers" and during a break I proceeded to remove one and reinstall it with a small knife and a standard pencil iron. To this day I still replace SMD RF power FETs this way, and after giving up on "recommended" techniques, I resolder intermittent J-lead pager chips with the pencil iron. I've also built SMD homebrew projects with an unetched copper circuit board and a Dremel tool, and used SMD capacitors to lay between foils on standard circuit boards to retune or bypass things.
For me, it puts the fun back in ham radio - and it keeps me from dropping huge solder blobs on the carpet like I did as a kid building that HW-7.
Posted by
N3EG
on November 4, 2008
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smt
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my first experience was a 2 meter rig(that i got on ebay) that had no receive.i knew that i could not fix it, so took it to a local shop,this guy is one of the best in my area(I thought). he told me which transistor was bad but he would not even try to change it. so i sold it on ebay (LISTED AS NEEDING REPAIR) lost about $90 on the deal.now i will not buy any used radio that has the surface mount components.
Posted by
N5ZTPN5ZTP
on November 4, 2008
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surface mount
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It makes for more compact radios, that's for sure. But in many cases, it has ushered in the era of disposable radios. Some you can repair or have repaired, but I have seen a lot that where repairs cost more than replacement, and the unit ended up in the garbage. 30 years ago, most anything could be repaired, unless it was in a fire. It's the sign of the times.
Posted by
WB4TJH
on November 4, 2008
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WITH MAGNIFIER LENS, USING SOLDER PASTE IN A SYRINGE AND AN EMBOSSING HEAT TOOL IT CAN BE DONE
Posted by
AD6HF
on November 3, 2008
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SMD
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My hands are too big. My dexterity too lacking and my eyesight to poor.
Enough said.
Chris
Posted by
WA4CM
on November 3, 2008
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Surface Mount
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My first experience with them was a dismal failure as I used the wrong equipment and made a mess of things. For people outside of industry (like me), it would be nice if someone would write an article (or point to one already written) that explains the necessary or recommended tools, how to do it, and how to check the connections. I suspect that for the occasional tinkerer, the equipment would be prohibitively expensive, but if you planned on building or repairing lots of SMT stuff, it would be a must. One of the common themes I'm seeing these days is that older rigs with SMT are now experiencing cold solder joints that make for simple repair - if you know what you're doing. Thanks.
Posted by
VE6CNU
on November 2, 2008
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Onward & upward!
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I look at surface mount components this way:
My hands are not as steady anymore, and my vision is not as good as it used to be. Yet, I can work with modules. Give me a kit with pre-installed smc's and modular construction, and instructions large enough for me to see, and I will be more than glad to tackle it. No collection of old hams like me can stop an idea whose time has arrived, and we don't want to stop it, either. We want to keep the spark in ham radio! Is that some sort of pun? I guess so!
Posted by
AI2IA
on November 2, 2008
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I am not sure of what you are talking about, or maybe it is the way the question is worded. I assume you mean IC', diodes, resistors, and transistors that are that are sodded so close to the board with no leads that it makes it almost impossible to remove them to test.
Today's equipment as far as ham radio is concerned is not repairable by a ordinary radio operator any more, at least not with a standard Simpson 260 meter and a soldering gun. Those days are gone. You can't, and I surly can't, hardly even see the components. So I answered No Way
Posted by
KA5ROW
on November 2, 2008
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"if you don't go blind in the process, hopefully your task will be successful!"
I did prototype partially point-to-point on a generic protoboard with a MSOP analog to digital converter recently. I had good light, tweezers, and wearable loupe glasses but still got a headache by the end of the day.
I was making things way harder on myself, for sure, by not having a proper board to work with and having to actually solder and carefully bend some wires, plus I realized later that the part I was using also comes in SOIC and that would have been a LOT easier. I still have young eyes and I do some dead-bug stuff with SOIC ;-)
Anyway, I don't mind working with surface mount at all if I'm just soldering stuff to a board, or replacing failed components on an existing board, or whatever, and next time I design something I need to build using a bunch of SMT parts I'm going to look into getting some boards made...
73
Dan
Posted by
N3OX
on November 2, 2008
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Pain to work with sometimes, but that's how the parts I want to use come.
Posted by
N3OX
on November 2, 2008
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surface mount
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"Of course the visual appearance of a "proper" mil solder joint made life even tougher."
Military OR civilian; if it doesn't LOOK GOOD, the job is only HALF DONE!
Tom
Posted by
WB6DGN
on November 2, 2008
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Surface mount
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I have been through three generations of change is the way electronics are assembled in my working/hobby career. First was point-to-point wiring. I loved the challenge of, not only making it work the first time, but, also, making it look "pretty" and neat. Then came PWBs or PCBs. Initially made of phenolic substrate, they were a nightmare to work on. Your breath was hot enough to cause the foil to lift. Over the years, the boards have improved dramatically with better substrates, and better glue to bond the foil; to today where it almost takes a deliberate effort to lift the foil or otherwise damage the board. Now there's surface mount. Not a big deal. Slightly different technique and more expensive tools, but still fun to work on. I fear, however, that the coming generations of electronics will be priced out of the hobbiest market. When electronics commonly reach molecular proportions (sooner than you think), prices of equipment will far exceed the willingness of most hobbiests to invest in the equipment needed to work on them. Moral: Enjoy it while you still can.
Tom
Posted by
WB6DGN
on November 2, 2008
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Surface Mount Tech
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I don't like it, but like gas prices It is what it is!
Posted by
K4SFC
on November 1, 2008
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small wonder labs
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I built a psk unit from small wonder labs that included a few large smt inductors. I experinced a problem that I couldn't figuire out. The inductor became shorted and the driver stage failed. I had to send it off for repair. So projects with smt's can be frustrating if Murphy steps in!
Posted by
KA3EHL
on November 1, 2008
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SMT
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Just need the right tools, including a good lighted magnifying glass or even better a microscope that will go up to 30 or 40x.
Posted by
N4KH
on October 31, 2008
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Re: surface mount extreme
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Anybody feel like repairing a cell phone or a computer mother board?
Sure--I've got a sure fire way--using a fine adjustment tool, adjust the board to maximize loose parts. Then inform person who brought it to you it requires replacement because the board was too far gone to repair.
Of course this won't work if its your board to begin with. ;-))
Posted by
K1CJS
on October 31, 2008
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Nope
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Anybody feel like repairing a cell phone or a computer mother board?
73'
Kevin N2AM
Posted by N2AM on October 31, 2008
Nope!
Recycle bin
Posted by
KG6WLS
on October 31, 2008
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surface mount extreme
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I used to work at the Motorola Harvard IL cell phone factory as a front end technician on the line. These were phones that had failed the first testing machine. Some of these phones hadn't even made it through the power on test step. I doubt that most people have ever seen the state of the art in surface mount technology. How many people would want to try to repair BGA boards? It can be done with a steady hand as I used to do it on occasion. The bigger problem is how to detect the short that can occur between the device and the board. There was at least 5 BGA devices on the phones that I worked on. How many people have access to an x-ray microscope?
Anybody feel like repairing a cell phone or a computer mother board?
73'
Kevin N2AM
Posted by
N2AM
on October 31, 2008
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Surface Mount
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With the advent of SMT I see a double edged sword. On one hand you have a smaller device that allow for compact size and cost reduction although, not in every case. The other side is it's made for a more "throw away" syndrome in the consumer market. Getting it repaired is more costly than buying a new one for consumers but, not so much in our hobby. It has caused many to give up trying to repair or build projects. Shaking hands, poor eyes and added cost of equipment and, I'm sure there are a couple of other reasons. I'm still delving into SMT but, I find it more taxing and stressful for me. I prefer to solder a hole through device more than soldering a SMD. I guess this "older" generation person is just not cut out for it.
Posted by
N0FQN
on October 31, 2008
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surface mount
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Worked in the military electronics field for years, and using s.m.t. has a requirement for the proper tools. Of course the visual appearance of a "proper" mil solder joint made life even tougher.
As a hobbiest at 69, I won't touch them now, well maybe under threat of death.
Posted by
VE3OU
on October 31, 2008
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Well........
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Well, good for those of you that has a knack for this line of work. It’s not for every experimenter and I’m glad that there are those of you that have the tools and the patience (steady hands). I’ll stick with my Weller station and my 30 watt pencil iron for those casual evening projects.
In my line of work, I work with larger components that require wearing arc flash gear at times. Ever experiment with that? :)
73 de KG6WLS
Posted by
KG6WLS
on October 31, 2008
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No Problem Here
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25+ years as a self employed mechanic/technician doing commercial and industrial maintenance. With the right tools, no problems here. Growing with the transition to SMT helped too.
73
C r a i g
Posted by
N4CQR
on October 31, 2008
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Whoa.....
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>>>...I had a pile of 0204 resistors here on my desk, then I sneezed. Now they're all gone and I have to start over again...<<<
Sounds like you might be 'allergic' to those things, Steve! ;-)
Posted by
K1CJS
on October 31, 2008
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It takes practice.....
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I've worked with those small parts--even though my eyes aren't what they used to be. Not only do you need the right tools, you have to have a steady hand and experience.
It helps if you've done similar work before, and some of the boards before surface mount components became the norm instead of the exception had regular components that had short leads--in other words were almost surface mounted themselves.
In this case, practice probably doesn't make perfect--but it sure helps!!
Posted by
K1CJS
on October 31, 2008
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SMT
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Part of the problem comes from lack of experience and training.
As a two-way radio technician, I deal with SMT repair daily. By using proper repair technique (hot air), It is easy to repair SMT componants. There are enough failed/obsolete PC boards to serve as test cases for any ham wanting to explore this.
One of my favorite tools is a temperature-controlled hot air tip on a butane iron, very handy way to remove SMD's
Posted by
VE3ZXK
on October 30, 2008
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No Way Hose A
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I'll leave the SMC's to those robotic dream machines at the factory. Ever try to find one of those little SM's in Frieze carpet? I have a hard enough time focusing on the color bands on a 1/4 watt resistor with my terrible eyes.
73
Posted by
KG6WLS
on October 30, 2008
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Wait a second...
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...I had a pile of 0204 resistors here on my desk, then I sneezed. Now they're all gone and I have to start over again...
:-)
Posted by
WB2WIK
on October 30, 2008
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The Right Tools
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Working in a SMT manufacturing facility, I can attest to the necessity of having the right tools for this type of work. The essentials are a good magnification device with a directed light source and a 10 mil probe set. These probes are much smaller than dental probes and really make the task as easy as it can get. Hot tweezers are also an advantage as is the finest pitch soldering iron you can lay your hands on.
The last and most important thing to have is a steady hand and if you don't go blind in the process, hopefully your task will be successful!
73s
Chad KE4ZJF
Posted by
KE4ZJF
on October 30, 2008
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Good process for most
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I agree that surface mounting offers all sorts of advantages including cost reductions and I am for using it whenever practical. However, my fat fingers and bad eyesight keep me from enjoying it at the kit level; some of that is eased when the kit has the surface mounted parts pre-installed.
73 Bill KW4J
Posted by
KW4J
on October 30, 2008
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Surface mount
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The price is not bad either, caps and resistors at less than a penny a piece. I work surface mount quite often either repair or populating new boards. You can fits lots of things in smaller areas which means more "stuff" in your radio box. Lets talk less heat and power too. The only real heat are the power supplies and if you do the install correctly that should not be too much of a problem. The power that is used is quite small from just a few years ago and quite large from the tube days. Thank you.
Whitney
N3ZV
Posted by
KA3TKZ
on October 30, 2008
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