Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio
Created by on 2008-10-30What do we have to offer?
After reading the ARRL article about the new Youth Editor Duncan MacLachlan, KU0DM, I realize if we plan to get youth into this hobby, we ourselves are going to have to expand our horizons. Duncan states he is "an APRS geek", likes working DX, and works weak signal / sound card modes, including PSK31 and RTTY.
I have been reminded of a statement made at a church associational meeting that I attended. The speaker eluded to the fact that we could no longer give a kid a coloring book and crayons in Sunday School, because that same student had video games and computers at home. And, it made sense.
There have been a lot of advances in digital modes in amateur radio, but along with the advances have come resistance. Maybe, it's time we take a hard look at ham radio and see what we have to offer.
Duncan not only likes digital sound card modes, he also enjoys CW and voice. I know myself that part of the love of amateur radio for me is experimenting with something I haven't done before, new and old. And, I believe youth also like challenges. They like to use their minds, although we tend to paint them lazy and uncaring.
I personally know Emily Bishop, W4EMB. She has been feature in a lot of stories about youth and amateur radio, and has done a lot to try to promote amateur radio to youth. But, she is a modern youth, she enjoys just about everything amateur radio has to offer.
So, if we plan to attract youth to amateur radio, what do we have to offer? When a youth comes to your shack what does he see? There is nothing wrong with antique equipment. And, they don't have to see the latest and greatest. But, is there something in his realm to interest him or her?
To coin a phrase from a TV commercial, "What can I, do, for you? Or better, "What can amateur radio, do, for you?
| K6LHA | 2008-11-19 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| N2EY, still trying to negate everything I write, posted on 19 Nov 08: AF6AY writes: 'Young people' (assuming 18 or younger age) are more psychologically moldable than adults.... 'Young people' ARE moldable of mind. All kinds of marketing work effectively on that...'Young people' want their OWN thing." "There's a basic contradiction there, Len. Can you see it?" No. I only see that I could have written it differently, considering the super-formal-in-literary-manner dude you is. Oh, dear, I have to LAY IT OUT in detail for the superham? Okay, young people WANT their OWN thing. Marketeers take advantage of that. Marketeers INFLUENCE which thing those young people want (there's many choices). It has been going ever since advertising existed. You should get out more with young people (under 18, say) and observe. <shrug> ............ AF6AY: "They've lived their whole lives with adults Telling Them What To Do." N2EY: "Well, Len, you've spent a lot of years online telling younger hams (which is most of them) What To Do and How Amateur Radio Should Be. Lecturing, arguing, demanding information, insulting, ridiculing, name-calling and much more. And until March 2007 you weren't even a ham!" Awwwww....poor baby, you feel all upset because YOU can't tell young people what to want? I guess so... Sweetums, I've been IN radio for 55 years, BEGINNING on HF. You are just stuck on ham radio, CW on 40m. <shrug> N2EY: "OTOH, I became a ham at age 13." That was 40 years ago or was it 41 years ago? :-) Have times changed in four decades or are you still in never-never land of the past? ........... N2EY: "... they judged my worthiness as a Radio Amateur by my technical know-how and operating skills." There ya go! Gosh, I could never be a Boy-Wonder. To bad that Batman already had Robin... [well, that's show biz for ya...] ........... N2EY: "Younger people only rebel against that which they think isn't right. That's why so many of us younger people rebel against your attempts to control us." Oh! You REMAIN at under-18 in your FIFTIES?!? [I mentally picture a code-tested Peter Pan...:-)] ............ N2EY: "From what I've seen, you sure don't seem to be a good teacher, let alone a GOOD teacher." Is that speaking as Superham or as an aging Peter Pan? :-) Do you need a videotape of me demonstrating rocket engines to magnet schooler? :-) ............ N2EY: "Well, Len, you've lectured us endlessly on a variety of subjects, and shown no respect for anyone who disagrees with you on anything." Tsk, I've only been on e-ham for a bit over a year. :-) ............ AF6AY: "A half century later there are at least four times as many CB users as there are USA amateur licensees today." N2EY: "How do you know, Len? What evidence is there? Solid evidence, backed by real data?" EIA information I saw a decade ago had a greater ratio. I've been cross-country, California to Illinois/Wisconsin twice in that decade, up and down to Washington state five times...the CB radio antennas on trucks are easy to see on the highways and in truck stops. One can see those same antennas on autos in cities. I can hear it on my scanner and either receiver along this small section of I-5. N2EY: "CB in the USA hasn't required a license in decades, so the number of licensees can't be used." Famous N2EY statement of disavowance: "It isn't ham radio!" :-) Electronic Industry Association market surveys carry information on consumer item imports. The vast majority of CBs in the past couple of decades are imports. ........... N2EY: "CB use isn't a question on the census, either." How do you know? :-) N2EY: "I don't see CB sets for sale in most stores, even those that specialize in electronics. Radio Shack might have one or two buried somewhere, but they don't make a point of trying to sell them." Tsk, tsk, Radio Shack and Uniden advertise them on-line. Just got some spam e-mail on their latest. There are three Radio Shack stores within 15 minutes driving distance from my residence plus a Target Greatland, a K-Mart, a Best Buy and a Frys Electronics (I don't recall if it is Frys or Fry's). All have them but they aren't prominent sales items now. CB on 11m has been around for fifty years. It pales in sales and want-a-bility with so many new consumer items now. ........... N2EY: "Nor do I see CB antennas on homes or cars." None? Gee, have you had an eye exam lately? You might have a series health problem! ........... N2EY: "I can find CQ at the local MicroCenter computer store, but no CB magazines. None." Gosharooney, Superham, I don't know if there was ever a "CB magazine." Oh, well, I don't often go into truck stops to eat or hang around Big Rig garages. ........... N2EY: "The ARRL, the largest Amateur Radio organization in the world, has at least 100,000 members (the exact number is not something I'm going to tell you, Len, so don't bother asking), but I don't know of any national or even regional CB organizations." No? Awwww.... I didn't know one HAD to be ORGANIZED if they had a CB. One learns something every day! Come to think about it, YOU don't belong to any electrical or electronic professional association, do you? Yet you claim to be a paid electrical engineer (and won't tell anyone that you work for Consolidated Railway corporation). I'm a life member of IEEE (cost me nothing to become one). Been a voting member since '73. ......... N2EY: "I think you're trying to pull a fast one, Len. I think you just made up that number of CB users without any evidence at all." I made a casual remark and you try to turn it into la guerre. :-) I'll let John Force be one of the "fast one." Or Jimmy Johnson at Talladega, or a bunch of others. Actually the USAF has the "fast ones," NASA the fastest. I don't have even a small set of EIA market surveys handy. I'll hold with what I saw a decade ago. Remember, CB (on 11m) is 50 years old. Those EIA documents cost too much and it isn't applicable to what I still do for a living. Now, to prove me WRONG (as you insist on doing all the time), you have to provide the RIGHT NUMBERS. YOU, sweetums, not me. :-) .......... AF6AY: "Amateur radio is and always has been a hobby." N2EY: "But not just a hobby." I've already said it was a 'WAY OF LIFE to some,' especially to aging Peter Pans. ......... N2EY: "And whatever Amateur Radio is, why not publicize it more - to people of all ages?" How do you know I don't? "You would be surprised at what I do!" :-) You've been IN amateur radio for forty years. Me, only a year and something. I would have thought YOU (with all the skills and technical know-how plus superham stuff) could do all that sooooo good. :-) .......... N2EY: "Or do you think that people under a certain age should be excluded from Amateur Radio?" Only the aging, fifty-something Peter Pans who are still trying to get pat on the head for being such good, smart, brave young teenagers, 40 years ago. Pat, pat...there, there... Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-19 AF6AY writes: 'Young people' (assuming 18 or younger age) are more psychologically moldable than adults.... 'Young people' ARE moldable of mind. All kinds of marketing work effectively on that...'Young people' want their OWN thing." There's a basic contradiction there, Len. Can you see it? AF6AY: "They've lived their whole lives with adults Telling Them What To Do." Well, Len, you've spent a lot of years online telling younger hams (which is most of them) What To Do and How Amateur Radio Should Be. Lecturing, arguing, demanding information, insulting, ridiculing, name-calling and much more. And until March 2007 you weren't even a ham! See the similarity? OTOH, I became a ham at age 13. I respected some older hams more than others; it all depended on how they treated me. Most didn't care how old I was; they judged my worthiness as a Radio Amateur by my technical know-how and operating skills. A small number weren't so friendly, but I soon figured out that the problem was that they were threatened by the fact that younger hams such as I sometimes/often knew more than they did about some things, and sometimes/often had better operating skills. Some things never change.... AF6AY: "Internally they rebell against all those adults saying 'when I was young we did...' and that was supposed to be the 'best' or 'the truth.'" "Rebel", Len. One L. Not "rebell", which mean to replace a ringing device. Younger people only rebel against that which they think isn't right. That's why so many of us younger people rebel against your attempts to control us. AF6AY: "It might raise a question as to which generation has 'the truth.' A valid answer is that NONE of them have it." A better answer is that none of them have all of it, but most of them have some of it. I think you have very little of it. AF6AY: "In reality there are few GOOD teachers." Is that your "truth", Len? Why should we accept it? From what I've seen, you sure don't seem to be a good teacher, let alone a GOOD teacher. AF6AY: "If some old-timers want to lecture their teen agers on How To Be The Best, as OFs were 30 years ago, they will NOT really be respected. That time was well before those teen agers existed, akin to trying to impress them with old history book facts. A good thing is that most teeners will show courtesy, a thing impressed on them by their parents at an early stage. But, courtesy isn't the same as respect. It is just a social custom. Whether OFs believe it or not, teeners CAN sense when adults are pulling a fast one on them in any environment." Well, Len, you've lectured us endlessly on a variety of subjects, and shown no respect for anyone who disagrees with you on anything. Particularly when someone says you're pulling a fast one. AF6AY: "A half century later there are at least four times as many CB users as there are USA amateur licensees today." How do you know, Len? What evidence is there? Solid evidence, backed by real data? CB in the USA hasn't required a license in decades, so the number of licensees can't be used. CB use isn't a question on the census, either. I don't see CB sets for sale in most stores, even those that specialize in electronics. Radio Shack might have one or two buried somewhere, but they don't make a point of trying to sell them. Nor do I see CB antennas on homes or cars. I can find CQ at the local MicroCenter computer store, but no CB magazines. None. The ARRL, the largest Amateur Radio organization in the world, has at least 100,000 members (the exact number is not something I'm going to tell you, Len, so don't bother asking), but I don't know of any national or even regional CB organizations. I think you're trying to pull a fast one, Len. I think you just made up that number of CB users without any evidence at all. AF6AY: "Amateur radio is and always has been a hobby." But not just a hobby. And whatever Amateur Radio is, why not publicize it more - to people of all ages? Or do you think that people under a certain age should be excluded from Amateur Radio? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-11-18 N9NWO posted on 18 Nov 08: "Why is there a fasciation with having young people in our hobby? Why? Does having young people getting licnesed mean that we are somehow more relevant?" There's a lot of answers possible for your question. Those answers are so old in psychology that they fall into the 'Empirical Data Derivation' territory of common sense. :-) 'Young people' (assuming 18 or younger age) are more psychologically moldable than adults. Those are an easy mark for the 'middle aged' (age 50 plus-minus) who need some sort of target to tell an audience 'how good they are' and expect some kind of respect. Indeed, many of middle age demand respect and get totally racked when they don't get it. :-) 'Young people' ARE moldable of mind. All kinds of marketing work effectively on that. Fads keep hatching and blooming with each generation. So many marketeers have concentrated on that and it makes the "appeal to young people" a rather meaningless buzzword that all are supposed to cherish. It is really just another fad, a buzzphrase desperate to become a polite saying. 'Young people' want their OWN thing. They've lived their whole lives with adults Telling Them What To Do. Internally they rebell against all those adults saying 'when I was young we did...' and that was supposed to be the 'best' or 'the truth.' They ignore the plain and simple fact that the older adults of now were the young people of their youth and thought the same thing, resented things that were supposed to be 'best' back then. Either they have an inability to gain rapport with young people or their own egos demand that whatever they do is the model for what all others should do. It might raise a question as to which generation has 'the truth.' A valid answer is that NONE of them have it. In reality there are few GOOD teachers. [another buzzphrase is that 'all' teachers 'must' be respected, etc.] Good teaching requires the instructor be in rapport with their students, to sense when they are absorbing information and to steer the (usual) malcontents into line when they are out of line, to bring them back to the subject. Most of the really good teachers are part actor, stage actors playing to an audience, knowing their 'lines' but modifying the 'act' to gain favorable response or to bring them INTO the 'act.' Unfortunately, MOST teachers are just lecturers, relying on their 'authority' to make their students learn (or at least to get passing grades). If some old-timers want to lecture their teen agers on How To Be The Best, as OFs were 30 years ago, they will NOT really be respected. That time was well before those teen agers existed, akin to trying to impress them with old history book facts. A good thing is that most teeners will show courtesy, a thing impressed on them by their parents at an early stage. But, courtesy isn't the same as respect. It is just a social custom. Whether OFs believe it or not, teeners CAN sense when adults are pulling a fast one on them in any environment. Getting respect from people older than teen age? Much harder. The 'my way is the only way' OF gets very defensive and offensive when challenged. That's a turn-off for many would-be amateur radio hobbyists. There's plenty of different hobbies to interest all who have free time to indulge in them. No one is going to be effective by denigrating any other hobby besides amateur radio. No one is going to be effective by trying to act like a professional amateur, demanding strict and unwavering adherence to whichever era of ham radio. ............... N9NWO: "Look, the population just no longer has a lot of young people in it. We are a nation of old people. Over half of the population is now over the age of 40. It is worst in Europe and Japan. There are no great masses of kids out there. What we do have are so dysfunctional by the time they reach 18 that they are worthless. Less than 5% can even meet military standards. And with waivers we still reject 74%!" Careful, careful, you are crossing the borderline into OF territory...:-) .............. N9NWO: "When I got into the hobby in 1959 all we had was amateur radio." The amateur radio hobby concerns only amateur radio. :-) CB on 11m was allocated in 1958. Fifty years ago. By 1959, just about every designer-manufacturer in the USA had brought out a CB radio model. It was a big potential NEW market. A half century later there are at least four times as many CB users as there are USA amateur licensees today. Some ardent OF hams are loathe to admit that...some just won't accept it. .............. N9NWO: "Now not only do we have the Internet but cell phones, CB and FRS." In 2005 the US Census Bureau reported that there were 100 MILLION cellular telephone subscriptions in the USA. That's equivalent to about one in three Americans. The Internet went public access in 1991, the same year the no-code-test Technician class was created in the USA. The Internet is now part and parcel of our daily lives. .............. N9NWO: "I was able to call home from Afghanistan on a cell phone last year, daily! And had Internet access. Big jump from even 1990 and Desert Storm." OF hams will jump on you for saying that. "Internet is NOT ham radio!" One MUST have an infrastructure-free amateur radio so that one can call home 'free,' spending much money and time acquiring all that 'free' equipment. :-) ................ N9NWO: "Look, lets focus our recruiting on guys in their 40s and 50s who need a hobby." How many of those DON'T already have a hobby? Or enough diversions to use up their available free time? ................ N9NWO: "That is where the population is, that is our biggest market. They have the time and the money, the kids have neither." Amateur radio is and always has been a hobby. It is not a product...except to large, special-interest membership organizations. 'Kids' do have lots of money...given to them by parents, grandparents. If not directly given as money, then in the form of products given them. Now what? Blame the 'kids?' Bottom line is that USA amateur radio is holding static in numbers even though an average of 26 thousand let their licenses expire each year. 27 thousand are getting new licenses. [a growth rate of 0.013 percent per year, a miniscule fraction of a percent] Reply to a comment by : N9NWO on 2008-11-18 Why is there a fasciation with having young people in our hobby? Why? Does having young people getting licnesed mean that we are somehow more relevant? Look, the population just no longer has a lot of young people in it. We are a nation of old people. Over half of the population is now over the age of 40. It is worst in Europe and Japan. There are no great masses of kids out there. What we do have are so dysfunctional by the time they reach 18 that they are worthless. Less than 5% can even meet military standards. And with waivers we still reject 74%! When I got into the hobby in 1959 all we had was amateur radio. Now not only do we have the Internet but cell phones, CB and FRS. I was able to call home from Afghanistan on a cell phone last year, daily! And had Internet access. Big jump from even 1990 and Desert Storm. Look, lets focus our recruiting on guys in their 40s and 50s who need a hobby. That is where the population is, that is our biggest market. They have the time and the money, the kids have neither. | ||
| N2EY | 2008-11-19 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| AF6AY writes: 'Young people' (assuming 18 or younger age) are more psychologically moldable than adults.... 'Young people' ARE moldable of mind. All kinds of marketing work effectively on that...'Young people' want their OWN thing." There's a basic contradiction there, Len. Can you see it? AF6AY: "They've lived their whole lives with adults Telling Them What To Do." Well, Len, you've spent a lot of years online telling younger hams (which is most of them) What To Do and How Amateur Radio Should Be. Lecturing, arguing, demanding information, insulting, ridiculing, name-calling and much more. And until March 2007 you weren't even a ham! See the similarity? OTOH, I became a ham at age 13. I respected some older hams more than others; it all depended on how they treated me. Most didn't care how old I was; they judged my worthiness as a Radio Amateur by my technical know-how and operating skills. A small number weren't so friendly, but I soon figured out that the problem was that they were threatened by the fact that younger hams such as I sometimes/often knew more than they did about some things, and sometimes/often had better operating skills. Some things never change.... AF6AY: "Internally they rebell against all those adults saying 'when I was young we did...' and that was supposed to be the 'best' or 'the truth.'" "Rebel", Len. One L. Not "rebell", which mean to replace a ringing device. Younger people only rebel against that which they think isn't right. That's why so many of us younger people rebel against your attempts to control us. AF6AY: "It might raise a question as to which generation has 'the truth.' A valid answer is that NONE of them have it." A better answer is that none of them have all of it, but most of them have some of it. I think you have very little of it. AF6AY: "In reality there are few GOOD teachers." Is that your "truth", Len? Why should we accept it? From what I've seen, you sure don't seem to be a good teacher, let alone a GOOD teacher. AF6AY: "If some old-timers want to lecture their teen agers on How To Be The Best, as OFs were 30 years ago, they will NOT really be respected. That time was well before those teen agers existed, akin to trying to impress them with old history book facts. A good thing is that most teeners will show courtesy, a thing impressed on them by their parents at an early stage. But, courtesy isn't the same as respect. It is just a social custom. Whether OFs believe it or not, teeners CAN sense when adults are pulling a fast one on them in any environment." Well, Len, you've lectured us endlessly on a variety of subjects, and shown no respect for anyone who disagrees with you on anything. Particularly when someone says you're pulling a fast one. AF6AY: "A half century later there are at least four times as many CB users as there are USA amateur licensees today." How do you know, Len? What evidence is there? Solid evidence, backed by real data? CB in the USA hasn't required a license in decades, so the number of licensees can't be used. CB use isn't a question on the census, either. I don't see CB sets for sale in most stores, even those that specialize in electronics. Radio Shack might have one or two buried somewhere, but they don't make a point of trying to sell them. Nor do I see CB antennas on homes or cars. I can find CQ at the local MicroCenter computer store, but no CB magazines. None. The ARRL, the largest Amateur Radio organization in the world, has at least 100,000 members (the exact number is not something I'm going to tell you, Len, so don't bother asking), but I don't know of any national or even regional CB organizations. I think you're trying to pull a fast one, Len. I think you just made up that number of CB users without any evidence at all. AF6AY: "Amateur radio is and always has been a hobby." But not just a hobby. And whatever Amateur Radio is, why not publicize it more - to people of all ages? Or do you think that people under a certain age should be excluded from Amateur Radio? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-11-18 N9NWO posted on 18 Nov 08: "Why is there a fasciation with having young people in our hobby? Why? Does having young people getting licnesed mean that we are somehow more relevant?" There's a lot of answers possible for your question. Those answers are so old in psychology that they fall into the 'Empirical Data Derivation' territory of common sense. :-) 'Young people' (assuming 18 or younger age) are more psychologically moldable than adults. Those are an easy mark for the 'middle aged' (age 50 plus-minus) who need some sort of target to tell an audience 'how good they are' and expect some kind of respect. Indeed, many of middle age demand respect and get totally racked when they don't get it. :-) 'Young people' ARE moldable of mind. All kinds of marketing work effectively on that. Fads keep hatching and blooming with each generation. So many marketeers have concentrated on that and it makes the "appeal to young people" a rather meaningless buzzword that all are supposed to cherish. It is really just another fad, a buzzphrase desperate to become a polite saying. 'Young people' want their OWN thing. They've lived their whole lives with adults Telling Them What To Do. Internally they rebell against all those adults saying 'when I was young we did...' and that was supposed to be the 'best' or 'the truth.' They ignore the plain and simple fact that the older adults of now were the young people of their youth and thought the same thing, resented things that were supposed to be 'best' back then. Either they have an inability to gain rapport with young people or their own egos demand that whatever they do is the model for what all others should do. It might raise a question as to which generation has 'the truth.' A valid answer is that NONE of them have it. In reality there are few GOOD teachers. [another buzzphrase is that 'all' teachers 'must' be respected, etc.] Good teaching requires the instructor be in rapport with their students, to sense when they are absorbing information and to steer the (usual) malcontents into line when they are out of line, to bring them back to the subject. Most of the really good teachers are part actor, stage actors playing to an audience, knowing their 'lines' but modifying the 'act' to gain favorable response or to bring them INTO the 'act.' Unfortunately, MOST teachers are just lecturers, relying on their 'authority' to make their students learn (or at least to get passing grades). If some old-timers want to lecture their teen agers on How To Be The Best, as OFs were 30 years ago, they will NOT really be respected. That time was well before those teen agers existed, akin to trying to impress them with old history book facts. A good thing is that most teeners will show courtesy, a thing impressed on them by their parents at an early stage. But, courtesy isn't the same as respect. It is just a social custom. Whether OFs believe it or not, teeners CAN sense when adults are pulling a fast one on them in any environment. Getting respect from people older than teen age? Much harder. The 'my way is the only way' OF gets very defensive and offensive when challenged. That's a turn-off for many would-be amateur radio hobbyists. There's plenty of different hobbies to interest all who have free time to indulge in them. No one is going to be effective by denigrating any other hobby besides amateur radio. No one is going to be effective by trying to act like a professional amateur, demanding strict and unwavering adherence to whichever era of ham radio. ............... N9NWO: "Look, the population just no longer has a lot of young people in it. We are a nation of old people. Over half of the population is now over the age of 40. It is worst in Europe and Japan. There are no great masses of kids out there. What we do have are so dysfunctional by the time they reach 18 that they are worthless. Less than 5% can even meet military standards. And with waivers we still reject 74%!" Careful, careful, you are crossing the borderline into OF territory...:-) .............. N9NWO: "When I got into the hobby in 1959 all we had was amateur radio." The amateur radio hobby concerns only amateur radio. :-) CB on 11m was allocated in 1958. Fifty years ago. By 1959, just about every designer-manufacturer in the USA had brought out a CB radio model. It was a big potential NEW market. A half century later there are at least four times as many CB users as there are USA amateur licensees today. Some ardent OF hams are loathe to admit that...some just won't accept it. .............. N9NWO: "Now not only do we have the Internet but cell phones, CB and FRS." In 2005 the US Census Bureau reported that there were 100 MILLION cellular telephone subscriptions in the USA. That's equivalent to about one in three Americans. The Internet went public access in 1991, the same year the no-code-test Technician class was created in the USA. The Internet is now part and parcel of our daily lives. .............. N9NWO: "I was able to call home from Afghanistan on a cell phone last year, daily! And had Internet access. Big jump from even 1990 and Desert Storm." OF hams will jump on you for saying that. "Internet is NOT ham radio!" One MUST have an infrastructure-free amateur radio so that one can call home 'free,' spending much money and time acquiring all that 'free' equipment. :-) ................ N9NWO: "Look, lets focus our recruiting on guys in their 40s and 50s who need a hobby." How many of those DON'T already have a hobby? Or enough diversions to use up their available free time? ................ N9NWO: "That is where the population is, that is our biggest market. They have the time and the money, the kids have neither." Amateur radio is and always has been a hobby. It is not a product...except to large, special-interest membership organizations. 'Kids' do have lots of money...given to them by parents, grandparents. If not directly given as money, then in the form of products given them. Now what? Blame the 'kids?' Bottom line is that USA amateur radio is holding static in numbers even though an average of 26 thousand let their licenses expire each year. 27 thousand are getting new licenses. [a growth rate of 0.013 percent per year, a miniscule fraction of a percent] Reply to a comment by : N9NWO on 2008-11-18 Why is there a fasciation with having young people in our hobby? Why? Does having young people getting licnesed mean that we are somehow more relevant? Look, the population just no longer has a lot of young people in it. We are a nation of old people. Over half of the population is now over the age of 40. It is worst in Europe and Japan. There are no great masses of kids out there. What we do have are so dysfunctional by the time they reach 18 that they are worthless. Less than 5% can even meet military standards. And with waivers we still reject 74%! When I got into the hobby in 1959 all we had was amateur radio. Now not only do we have the Internet but cell phones, CB and FRS. I was able to call home from Afghanistan on a cell phone last year, daily! And had Internet access. Big jump from even 1990 and Desert Storm. Look, lets focus our recruiting on guys in their 40s and 50s who need a hobby. That is where the population is, that is our biggest market. They have the time and the money, the kids have neither. | ||
| N2EY | 2008-11-19 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| N9NWO writes: "Why is there a fasciation with having young people in our hobby? Why?" Because growth and diversity in Amateur Radio can be a good thing. N9NWO: "Does having young people getting licnesed mean that we are somehow more relevant?" YES! Which is more relevant: 1) an Amateur Radio service that only includes people of a certain age range, income level, educational level, gender, etc., or 2) an Amateur Radio service that includes people of all ages, incomes, educations, genders, etc.? I say 2) That doesn't mean we should toss out all standards, traditions and similar parts of the Amateur Radio culture just to get more people licensed. But it does mean we should let everyone know what we're about. N9NWO: "Look, the population just no longer has a lot of young people in it. We are a nation of old people." Well, that depends on how you define "old". Americans are living longer now. More important, they're staying active longer, too. N9NWO: "Over half of the population is now over the age of 40." So what? That means a bit less than half the population is under 40. With over 300 million Americans, that's a lot of potential hams! 40 is the new 30, too. N9NWO: "It is worst in Europe and Japan. There are no great masses of kids out there." Did you mean "worse"? I don't know about Europe or Japan, but where I live there are plenty of kids. We don't have the huge clown-car families of the baby boom but there are plenty of young people out there. N9NWO: "What we do have are so dysfunctional by the time they reach 18 that they are worthless." Not the ones I know. Not here in EPA. I have the pleasure of being around a considerable number of younger people in a variety of environments. While there are a few who are 'dysfunctional' and maybe even 'worthless', they are a tiny minority. Every generation has a few bad apples; they are nothing new. Most of the younger people I know are intelligent, hard working, mature for their age and responsible. Of course those younger people don't get a lot of notice because they're too busy going to school, working, doing chores, etc. IOW, living responsible lives. N9NWO: "Less than 5% can even meet military standards. And with waivers we still reject 74%!" For what reasons? Physical disability? Lack of education? Amateur radio isn't the military, though. Entry qualifications are somewhat different... N9NWO: "When I got into the hobby in 1959 all we had was amateur radio." No telephones? No TV? No record players? No broadcast radio? When I became a ham in 1967 we had all that and more, including the CB fad, yet some folks still wanted to be hams. N9NWO: "Now not only do we have the Internet but cell phones, CB and FRS. I was able to call home from Afghanistan on a cell phone last year, daily! And had Internet access. Big jump from even 1990 and Desert Storm." That's a good thing! But none of those are Amateur Radio. Here's the big difference: Most of what you cite use radio as a means to an end. How the signal got from your cell phone in Afghanistan to a phone back here didn't matter; it was the call that counted. (It probably went part of the way by radio, part by fiber-optics, part by wire. Some of the way analog, most of the way digital.) But Amateur Radio is about radio for its own sake. As an end unto itself. That's what draws people; the unique activity. When I became a ham in 1967 it was easy to call across the USA, and possible to call most of the developed world by telephone. Expensive, but possible. By 1969, most of the developed world could watch the Apollo 11 landing live on TV. So why would anyone get a ham license after 1970? Because it's about the journey, not the destination. N9NWO: "Look, lets focus our recruiting on guys in their 40s and 50s who need a hobby. That is where the population is, that is our biggest market. They have the time and the money, the kids have neither." Why not go after anyone who is interested? Young, old, male, female, rich, poor, whatever? Ham radio has always been open to all who are interested and can meet some very basic standards, why exclude anyone? Do not assume they have the time and money, either. A lot of the 40- and 50-somethings are busy working, raising families, etc. It's not Ozzie and Harriet anymore; most middle-class families have two career couples. Folks in that group are often caught in the "sandwich", trying to care for elderly parents, their own children, and their jobs all at once. Most people aren't interested in "radio for its own sake" anyway. But a few are, just as a few people are interested in things like running marathons, hiking the Appalachian Trail end-to-end, making their own bread, etc. The do-it-yourself kind, IOW, who enjoy a challenge and developing personal skills and knowledge. Those are the folks to go after, regardless of age. If we try to sell amateur radio as a replacement for the internet, or the cell phone, we're not going to get very far because those things have an enormous infrastructure behind them. But if we try to sell amateur radio as a unique experience, different from anything else, we'll do fine. 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-11-18 N9NWO posted on 18 Nov 08: "Why is there a fasciation with having young people in our hobby? Why? Does having young people getting licnesed mean that we are somehow more relevant?" There's a lot of answers possible for your question. Those answers are so old in psychology that they fall into the 'Empirical Data Derivation' territory of common sense. :-) 'Young people' (assuming 18 or younger age) are more psychologically moldable than adults. Those are an easy mark for the 'middle aged' (age 50 plus-minus) who need some sort of target to tell an audience 'how good they are' and expect some kind of respect. Indeed, many of middle age demand respect and get totally racked when they don't get it. :-) 'Young people' ARE moldable of mind. All kinds of marketing work effectively on that. Fads keep hatching and blooming with each generation. So many marketeers have concentrated on that and it makes the "appeal to young people" a rather meaningless buzzword that all are supposed to cherish. It is really just another fad, a buzzphrase desperate to become a polite saying. 'Young people' want their OWN thing. They've lived their whole lives with adults Telling Them What To Do. Internally they rebell against all those adults saying 'when I was young we did...' and that was supposed to be the 'best' or 'the truth.' They ignore the plain and simple fact that the older adults of now were the young people of their youth and thought the same thing, resented things that were supposed to be 'best' back then. Either they have an inability to gain rapport with young people or their own egos demand that whatever they do is the model for what all others should do. It might raise a question as to which generation has 'the truth.' A valid answer is that NONE of them have it. In reality there are few GOOD teachers. [another buzzphrase is that 'all' teachers 'must' be respected, etc.] Good teaching requires the instructor be in rapport with their students, to sense when they are absorbing information and to steer the (usual) malcontents into line when they are out of line, to bring them back to the subject. Most of the really good teachers are part actor, stage actors playing to an audience, knowing their 'lines' but modifying the 'act' to gain favorable response or to bring them INTO the 'act.' Unfortunately, MOST teachers are just lecturers, relying on their 'authority' to make their students learn (or at least to get passing grades). If some old-timers want to lecture their teen agers on How To Be The Best, as OFs were 30 years ago, they will NOT really be respected. That time was well before those teen agers existed, akin to trying to impress them with old history book facts. A good thing is that most teeners will show courtesy, a thing impressed on them by their parents at an early stage. But, courtesy isn't the same as respect. It is just a social custom. Whether OFs believe it or not, teeners CAN sense when adults are pulling a fast one on them in any environment. Getting respect from people older than teen age? Much harder. The 'my way is the only way' OF gets very defensive and offensive when challenged. That's a turn-off for many would-be amateur radio hobbyists. There's plenty of different hobbies to interest all who have free time to indulge in them. No one is going to be effective by denigrating any other hobby besides amateur radio. No one is going to be effective by trying to act like a professional amateur, demanding strict and unwavering adherence to whichever era of ham radio. ............... N9NWO: "Look, the population just no longer has a lot of young people in it. We are a nation of old people. Over half of the population is now over the age of 40. It is worst in Europe and Japan. There are no great masses of kids out there. What we do have are so dysfunctional by the time they reach 18 that they are worthless. Less than 5% can even meet military standards. And with waivers we still reject 74%!" Careful, careful, you are crossing the borderline into OF territory...:-) .............. N9NWO: "When I got into the hobby in 1959 all we had was amateur radio." The amateur radio hobby concerns only amateur radio. :-) CB on 11m was allocated in 1958. Fifty years ago. By 1959, just about every designer-manufacturer in the USA had brought out a CB radio model. It was a big potential NEW market. A half century later there are at least four times as many CB users as there are USA amateur licensees today. Some ardent OF hams are loathe to admit that...some just won't accept it. .............. N9NWO: "Now not only do we have the Internet but cell phones, CB and FRS." In 2005 the US Census Bureau reported that there were 100 MILLION cellular telephone subscriptions in the USA. That's equivalent to about one in three Americans. The Internet went public access in 1991, the same year the no-code-test Technician class was created in the USA. The Internet is now part and parcel of our daily lives. .............. N9NWO: "I was able to call home from Afghanistan on a cell phone last year, daily! And had Internet access. Big jump from even 1990 and Desert Storm." OF hams will jump on you for saying that. "Internet is NOT ham radio!" One MUST have an infrastructure-free amateur radio so that one can call home 'free,' spending much money and time acquiring all that 'free' equipment. :-) ................ N9NWO: "Look, lets focus our recruiting on guys in their 40s and 50s who need a hobby." How many of those DON'T already have a hobby? Or enough diversions to use up their available free time? ................ N9NWO: "That is where the population is, that is our biggest market. They have the time and the money, the kids have neither." Amateur radio is and always has been a hobby. It is not a product...except to large, special-interest membership organizations. 'Kids' do have lots of money...given to them by parents, grandparents. If not directly given as money, then in the form of products given them. Now what? Blame the 'kids?' Bottom line is that USA amateur radio is holding static in numbers even though an average of 26 thousand let their licenses expire each year. 27 thousand are getting new licenses. [a growth rate of 0.013 percent per year, a miniscule fraction of a percent] Reply to a comment by : N9NWO on 2008-11-18 Why is there a fasciation with having young people in our hobby? Why? Does having young people getting licnesed mean that we are somehow more relevant? Look, the population just no longer has a lot of young people in it. We are a nation of old people. Over half of the population is now over the age of 40. It is worst in Europe and Japan. There are no great masses of kids out there. What we do have are so dysfunctional by the time they reach 18 that they are worthless. Less than 5% can even meet military standards. And with waivers we still reject 74%! When I got into the hobby in 1959 all we had was amateur radio. Now not only do we have the Internet but cell phones, CB and FRS. I was able to call home from Afghanistan on a cell phone last year, daily! And had Internet access. Big jump from even 1990 and Desert Storm. Look, lets focus our recruiting on guys in their 40s and 50s who need a hobby. That is where the population is, that is our biggest market. They have the time and the money, the kids have neither. | ||
| K6LHA | 2008-11-18 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| N9NWO posted on 18 Nov 08: "Why is there a fasciation with having young people in our hobby? Why? Does having young people getting licnesed mean that we are somehow more relevant?" There's a lot of answers possible for your question. Those answers are so old in psychology that they fall into the 'Empirical Data Derivation' territory of common sense. :-) 'Young people' (assuming 18 or younger age) are more psychologically moldable than adults. Those are an easy mark for the 'middle aged' (age 50 plus-minus) who need some sort of target to tell an audience 'how good they are' and expect some kind of respect. Indeed, many of middle age demand respect and get totally racked when they don't get it. :-) 'Young people' ARE moldable of mind. All kinds of marketing work effectively on that. Fads keep hatching and blooming with each generation. So many marketeers have concentrated on that and it makes the "appeal to young people" a rather meaningless buzzword that all are supposed to cherish. It is really just another fad, a buzzphrase desperate to become a polite saying. 'Young people' want their OWN thing. They've lived their whole lives with adults Telling Them What To Do. Internally they rebell against all those adults saying 'when I was young we did...' and that was supposed to be the 'best' or 'the truth.' They ignore the plain and simple fact that the older adults of now were the young people of their youth and thought the same thing, resented things that were supposed to be 'best' back then. Either they have an inability to gain rapport with young people or their own egos demand that whatever they do is the model for what all others should do. It might raise a question as to which generation has 'the truth.' A valid answer is that NONE of them have it. In reality there are few GOOD teachers. [another buzzphrase is that 'all' teachers 'must' be respected, etc.] Good teaching requires the instructor be in rapport with their students, to sense when they are absorbing information and to steer the (usual) malcontents into line when they are out of line, to bring them back to the subject. Most of the really good teachers are part actor, stage actors playing to an audience, knowing their 'lines' but modifying the 'act' to gain favorable response or to bring them INTO the 'act.' Unfortunately, MOST teachers are just lecturers, relying on their 'authority' to make their students learn (or at least to get passing grades). If some old-timers want to lecture their teen agers on How To Be The Best, as OFs were 30 years ago, they will NOT really be respected. That time was well before those teen agers existed, akin to trying to impress them with old history book facts. A good thing is that most teeners will show courtesy, a thing impressed on them by their parents at an early stage. But, courtesy isn't the same as respect. It is just a social custom. Whether OFs believe it or not, teeners CAN sense when adults are pulling a fast one on them in any environment. Getting respect from people older than teen age? Much harder. The 'my way is the only way' OF gets very defensive and offensive when challenged. That's a turn-off for many would-be amateur radio hobbyists. There's plenty of different hobbies to interest all who have free time to indulge in them. No one is going to be effective by denigrating any other hobby besides amateur radio. No one is going to be effective by trying to act like a professional amateur, demanding strict and unwavering adherence to whichever era of ham radio. ............... N9NWO: "Look, the population just no longer has a lot of young people in it. We are a nation of old people. Over half of the population is now over the age of 40. It is worst in Europe and Japan. There are no great masses of kids out there. What we do have are so dysfunctional by the time they reach 18 that they are worthless. Less than 5% can even meet military standards. And with waivers we still reject 74%!" Careful, careful, you are crossing the borderline into OF territory...:-) .............. N9NWO: "When I got into the hobby in 1959 all we had was amateur radio." The amateur radio hobby concerns only amateur radio. :-) CB on 11m was allocated in 1958. Fifty years ago. By 1959, just about every designer-manufacturer in the USA had brought out a CB radio model. It was a big potential NEW market. A half century later there are at least four times as many CB users as there are USA amateur licensees today. Some ardent OF hams are loathe to admit that...some just won't accept it. .............. N9NWO: "Now not only do we have the Internet but cell phones, CB and FRS." In 2005 the US Census Bureau reported that there were 100 MILLION cellular telephone subscriptions in the USA. That's equivalent to about one in three Americans. The Internet went public access in 1991, the same year the no-code-test Technician class was created in the USA. The Internet is now part and parcel of our daily lives. .............. N9NWO: "I was able to call home from Afghanistan on a cell phone last year, daily! And had Internet access. Big jump from even 1990 and Desert Storm." OF hams will jump on you for saying that. "Internet is NOT ham radio!" One MUST have an infrastructure-free amateur radio so that one can call home 'free,' spending much money and time acquiring all that 'free' equipment. :-) ................ N9NWO: "Look, lets focus our recruiting on guys in their 40s and 50s who need a hobby." How many of those DON'T already have a hobby? Or enough diversions to use up their available free time? ................ N9NWO: "That is where the population is, that is our biggest market. They have the time and the money, the kids have neither." Amateur radio is and always has been a hobby. It is not a product...except to large, special-interest membership organizations. 'Kids' do have lots of money...given to them by parents, grandparents. If not directly given as money, then in the form of products given them. Now what? Blame the 'kids?' Bottom line is that USA amateur radio is holding static in numbers even though an average of 26 thousand let their licenses expire each year. 27 thousand are getting new licenses. [a growth rate of 0.013 percent per year, a miniscule fraction of a percent] Reply to a comment by : N9NWO on 2008-11-18 Why is there a fasciation with having young people in our hobby? Why? Does having young people getting licnesed mean that we are somehow more relevant? Look, the population just no longer has a lot of young people in it. We are a nation of old people. Over half of the population is now over the age of 40. It is worst in Europe and Japan. There are no great masses of kids out there. What we do have are so dysfunctional by the time they reach 18 that they are worthless. Less than 5% can even meet military standards. And with waivers we still reject 74%! When I got into the hobby in 1959 all we had was amateur radio. Now not only do we have the Internet but cell phones, CB and FRS. I was able to call home from Afghanistan on a cell phone last year, daily! And had Internet access. Big jump from even 1990 and Desert Storm. Look, lets focus our recruiting on guys in their 40s and 50s who need a hobby. That is where the population is, that is our biggest market. They have the time and the money, the kids have neither. | ||
| N9NWO | 2008-11-18 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Why is there a fasciation with having young people in our hobby? Why? Does having young people getting licnesed mean that we are somehow more relevant? Look, the population just no longer has a lot of young people in it. We are a nation of old people. Over half of the population is now over the age of 40. It is worst in Europe and Japan. There are no great masses of kids out there. What we do have are so dysfunctional by the time they reach 18 that they are worthless. Less than 5% can even meet military standards. And with waivers we still reject 74%! When I got into the hobby in 1959 all we had was amateur radio. Now not only do we have the Internet but cell phones, CB and FRS. I was able to call home from Afghanistan on a cell phone last year, daily! And had Internet access. Big jump from even 1990 and Desert Storm. Look, lets focus our recruiting on guys in their 40s and 50s who need a hobby. That is where the population is, that is our biggest market. They have the time and the money, the kids have neither. | ||
| AD7KC | 2008-11-16 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| KD8HMB - October 30, 2008 "[ ... ] I persuaded him to attend a ham fest with me. He agreed so he could get the driving hours he needs for his permit/license requirements. I asked him how he liked it. He said some of the people there looked like "serial killers" (maybe that puts me in that category, too?)and was anxious to leave." That's funny. The other half and I had a good chuckle at this. First one we went to, looked like it had been infiltrated by some 'level 3s'. Reply to a comment by : K9AP on 2008-10-30 My 16 yr old son has absolutly no interest in ham radio. His free time is spent on his X Box playing video games. Most of them are military style games in an interactive team mode. He can use his voice headset to communicate with team members, who could be located anywhere. When he's not on the Xbox, he's out with friends paintballing. I persuaded him to attend a ham fest with me. He agreed so he could get the driving hours he needs for his permit/license requirements. I asked him how he liked it. He said some of the people there looked like "serial killers" (maybe that puts me in that category, too?)and was anxious to leave. Reply to a comment by : NN4RH on 2008-10-30 << Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. >> Maybe the video game World of Warcraft could introduce some ARES ham characters with HTs to provide emergency communications as the flesh-eating zombie plague ( http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,444505,00.html )takes over everything. Maybe that would entice teenagers to Google "ham radio" and that will take them to the ARRL's "We Do That" web site, THEN they'll be so excited that they'll drop everything else, get a ham license, put up a G5RV and buy an FT-857, and beg us to "Elmer" them. Or not. Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| WA3YAY | 2008-11-16 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Forget youth. Bring in middle-aged and old people. Reply to a comment by : VE3WBE on 2008-11-12 I never managed to interest my children in electronics or amateur radio but my 4 year old grandson after using a FRS radio to talk to me from thr front yard exclaimed "It's magic" . So with apologies to those who heard "CQ Pop CQ Pop" maybe the seed has been planted to produce another amateur. 73 Ron | ||
| VE3WBE | 2008-11-12 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| I never managed to interest my children in electronics or amateur radio but my 4 year old grandson after using a FRS radio to talk to me from thr front yard exclaimed "It's magic" . So with apologies to those who heard "CQ Pop CQ Pop" maybe the seed has been planted to produce another amateur. 73 Ron | ||
| K1CJS | 2008-11-07 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: ROBERT NOT BOB | ||
| >> Keep the Beer out the Finals Fellas. I got to go! PLANKEYE << OK, so go. And please--stay gone. Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-07 I darn near fell up out my chair, whiskey spilt in my face, mouse, keyboard, and everything. I think that's how my Scroller got Broke. Robert not Bob, dude that is the funniest thing I have read to date on this Website. I love it!! Keep the Beer out the Finals Fellas. I got to go! PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-11-06 K1CJS: Robert, not Bob. But you are right, he is a person that stirs the pot. I also stir the pot, but in the way of intellectual debate. At least that is my intention. Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-05 Bob asked: "What's a Plankeye, anyways???" From the posts it makes, Bob, I figure its a kind of pot stirrer. Sounds about right anyway! 73! Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-11-03 What's a Plankeye, anyways??? CB handle? Some name because you are not licensed? At least when I make statements based on my opinion, I have my call attached for all to see. They know who I am. They may not agree with my opinions or stances, but at least I am an Advanced class licensed ham. If you are licensed, then by all means show your call! 73 Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-03 You guys is off topic again. It's just like the last article. Bickering! You all remind me of a hair Salon full of women. The topic is Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio! Dudes? All you guys do is seem to want to Argue! Maybe I'm wrong, if I am. PROVE IT! plankeye Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| K1CJS | 2008-11-07 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: C.W. MCALL | ||
| >>KB6QXM said: K1CJS: Robert, not Bob. My apology, Robert. Sometimes things happen. 73. Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-11-06 K1CJS: Robert, not Bob. But you are right, he is a person that stirs the pot. I also stir the pot, but in the way of intellectual debate. At least that is my intention. Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-05 Bob asked: "What's a Plankeye, anyways???" From the posts it makes, Bob, I figure its a kind of pot stirrer. Sounds about right anyway! 73! Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-11-03 What's a Plankeye, anyways??? CB handle? Some name because you are not licensed? At least when I make statements based on my opinion, I have my call attached for all to see. They know who I am. They may not agree with my opinions or stances, but at least I am an Advanced class licensed ham. If you are licensed, then by all means show your call! 73 Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-03 You guys is off topic again. It's just like the last article. Bickering! You all remind me of a hair Salon full of women. The topic is Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio! Dudes? All you guys do is seem to want to Argue! Maybe I'm wrong, if I am. PROVE IT! plankeye Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| PLANKEYE | 2008-11-07 | |
|---|---|---|
| ROBERT NOT BOB | ||
| I darn near fell up out my chair, whiskey spilt in my face, mouse, keyboard, and everything. I think that's how my Scroller got Broke. Robert not Bob, dude that is the funniest thing I have read to date on this Website. I love it!! Keep the Beer out the Finals Fellas. I got to go! PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-11-06 K1CJS: Robert, not Bob. But you are right, he is a person that stirs the pot. I also stir the pot, but in the way of intellectual debate. At least that is my intention. Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-05 Bob asked: "What's a Plankeye, anyways???" From the posts it makes, Bob, I figure its a kind of pot stirrer. Sounds about right anyway! 73! Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-11-03 What's a Plankeye, anyways??? CB handle? Some name because you are not licensed? At least when I make statements based on my opinion, I have my call attached for all to see. They know who I am. They may not agree with my opinions or stances, but at least I am an Advanced class licensed ham. If you are licensed, then by all means show your call! 73 Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-03 You guys is off topic again. It's just like the last article. Bickering! You all remind me of a hair Salon full of women. The topic is Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio! Dudes? All you guys do is seem to want to Argue! Maybe I'm wrong, if I am. PROVE IT! plankeye Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| SWL377 | 2008-11-06 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: C.W. MCALL | ||
| My son (18) picked up a tech license (to humor his Dad) but has no interest in transmitting. He says that in the absence of disasters, the Internet is way better than ham radio and if a disaster knoocks out the Internet and his G3 cell web enabled phone he'll call me on our local 2M repeater which has battery backup etc. He thinks we spend excess time and money on an inferior comm mode and use emergencies as a rationalization for our hopeless devotion to simplex and static. Reply to a comment by : W1XZ on 2008-11-05 If you want to know why young people aren't interested in amateur radio read this thread and then got down to the "News" posts and read "Ham Radio Operators Around the World Chime in About the Election". That just about says it all. Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-05 Bob asked: "What's a Plankeye, anyways???" From the posts it makes, Bob, I figure its a kind of pot stirrer. Sounds about right anyway! 73! Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-11-03 What's a Plankeye, anyways??? CB handle? Some name because you are not licensed? At least when I make statements based on my opinion, I have my call attached for all to see. They know who I am. They may not agree with my opinions or stances, but at least I am an Advanced class licensed ham. If you are licensed, then by all means show your call! 73 Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-03 You guys is off topic again. It's just like the last article. Bickering! You all remind me of a hair Salon full of women. The topic is Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio! Dudes? All you guys do is seem to want to Argue! Maybe I'm wrong, if I am. PROVE IT! plankeye Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| KB6QXM | 2008-11-06 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: C.W. MCALL | ||
| K1CJS: Robert, not Bob. But you are right, he is a person that stirs the pot. I also stir the pot, but in the way of intellectual debate. At least that is my intention. Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-05 Bob asked: "What's a Plankeye, anyways???" From the posts it makes, Bob, I figure its a kind of pot stirrer. Sounds about right anyway! 73! Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-11-03 What's a Plankeye, anyways??? CB handle? Some name because you are not licensed? At least when I make statements based on my opinion, I have my call attached for all to see. They know who I am. They may not agree with my opinions or stances, but at least I am an Advanced class licensed ham. If you are licensed, then by all means show your call! 73 Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-03 You guys is off topic again. It's just like the last article. Bickering! You all remind me of a hair Salon full of women. The topic is Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio! Dudes? All you guys do is seem to want to Argue! Maybe I'm wrong, if I am. PROVE IT! plankeye Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| W1XZ | 2008-11-05 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: C.W. MCALL | ||
| If you want to know why young people aren't interested in amateur radio read this thread and then got down to the "News" posts and read "Ham Radio Operators Around the World Chime in About the Election". That just about says it all. Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-05 Bob asked: "What's a Plankeye, anyways???" From the posts it makes, Bob, I figure its a kind of pot stirrer. Sounds about right anyway! 73! Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-11-03 What's a Plankeye, anyways??? CB handle? Some name because you are not licensed? At least when I make statements based on my opinion, I have my call attached for all to see. They know who I am. They may not agree with my opinions or stances, but at least I am an Advanced class licensed ham. If you are licensed, then by all means show your call! 73 Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-03 You guys is off topic again. It's just like the last article. Bickering! You all remind me of a hair Salon full of women. The topic is Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio! Dudes? All you guys do is seem to want to Argue! Maybe I'm wrong, if I am. PROVE IT! plankeye Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| K1CJS | 2008-11-05 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: C.W. MCALL | ||
| Bob asked: "What's a Plankeye, anyways???" From the posts it makes, Bob, I figure its a kind of pot stirrer. Sounds about right anyway! 73! Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-11-03 What's a Plankeye, anyways??? CB handle? Some name because you are not licensed? At least when I make statements based on my opinion, I have my call attached for all to see. They know who I am. They may not agree with my opinions or stances, but at least I am an Advanced class licensed ham. If you are licensed, then by all means show your call! 73 Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-03 You guys is off topic again. It's just like the last article. Bickering! You all remind me of a hair Salon full of women. The topic is Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio! Dudes? All you guys do is seem to want to Argue! Maybe I'm wrong, if I am. PROVE IT! plankeye Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| K9FON | 2008-11-05 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| N0SSC My hat goes off to you my young ham friend. Keep up the great work. Reply to a comment by : N0SSC on 2008-11-04 I am one of the few youths (at age 16) and i believe i ought to give my input on this article:]. Since i got my first set of toy walkie-talkies about 14 years i have been amazed at the fact that radio isn't only what you hear on the fm stereo, but an electronic medium for the human voice (and mind(i.e. digital modes)) and since i got into ham radio my favorite thing to do is to just listen. Listen to nets, contests, cw, and especially digital (which further amazed me). Like right now--I'm listening to some slow speed cw on 40 meters. I'm still astonished by the fact that people from around the world, even space, can come right into my room. There's also the aspect of electronics that interests me even more. And then comes the whole truth that i can talk back to them! So then once i got into contesting, i became even further perplexed and astounded.(yet disappointed that i'm not a big gun) What a great idea radiosport is! At school, several people have asked me "What is ham radio," after seeing it plastered on my car, notebooks, and clothing (because perhaps, some kid may have heard of this "ham radio," but doesn't know where to go, and notices the abundance of on me. I try to do my part.)) For me, its hard to explain it to a naive teen, since the world of ham radio is so broad and uninteresting to those teens therefore very specific of its participants. I try to tell them its a radio service that enables operators to participate in various activities including, public service (this always comes first), radiosport, electronics and etc. Almost always i get the proverbial "Why not use a cell phone or internet?" I go into further detail, but not too far to scare them off. So far my efforts have created one potential new ham. Go me! hihi. First of all, i feel as if there is a lack of publicity of amateur radio to catch the attention of possible hams. The only way(s) i can think of a kid who's not in a family of hams to become knowledgeable of ham radio is by people like me, the inclusion of ham radio in popular media such as tv, news, video games, etc. or by learning about different radio services after using cb's or walkie-talkies, or being in the boy scouts (i have asked around our population of boy scouts, and none of them have ever heard of JOTA or radio merit badges). There's probably a few more out there i can't name, but this is what I, a 16y.o. knows. What if icom started doing tv commercials? Or on some network, a program about radio is started? Or WoW incorporates ham radio (hihi NN4RH)? That all would be very awesome, but i wonder why i don't see things like this already. I assume that its because only 0.2% of Americas population are hams which causes a financial pinch for televised radio programs (pardon the pun). Secondly, what does ham radio have to offer? I think a better question to ask is what does it have to offer to a teenager? Comparing ham radio to video games, ham radio has fast-paced action, the necessity of skill, a challenge (actually many challenges) and it keeps getting better with newer technology. However one of the bigger obstacles is the price. A brand new Vhf/uhf handheld like my IC-T7H costs $160. Maybe this is ok for one time...so the licensed kid asks his mom and somehow gets the radio, but soon realizes that vhf is boring and drops it. Hopefully an over the air elmer will tell him about hf! And then hf. An ft-817 new costs over 700 bucks...mom says nope. Yes, there are used radios on ebay and whatnot, but what kid wants used equipment..would they want a used 1990's nokia or an iPhone? The second obstacle is that to become a licensed ham, an exam is required. Most teens already take enough tests in school, so why would a kid voluntarily take one? And then realize you need to take two more! I believe an ideal youth would need to be self-motivated, self-disciplined (pretty much independent), analytical, intelligent, mature, curious, and interested in the workings of things. Add to that exposure to ham radio, and you've got yourself a teen operator. In further conclusion, i believe in the coming years there will be a dramatic decrease in age, but a not as dramatic shift in population. Hope you enjoyed my imput, Happy election season and 73 De N0SSC | ||
| N0SSC | 2008-11-04 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| I am one of the few youths (at age 16) and i believe i ought to give my input on this article:]. Since i got my first set of toy walkie-talkies about 14 years i have been amazed at the fact that radio isn't only what you hear on the fm stereo, but an electronic medium for the human voice (and mind(i.e. digital modes)) and since i got into ham radio my favorite thing to do is to just listen. Listen to nets, contests, cw, and especially digital (which further amazed me). Like right now--I'm listening to some slow speed cw on 40 meters. I'm still astonished by the fact that people from around the world, even space, can come right into my room. There's also the aspect of electronics that interests me even more. And then comes the whole truth that i can talk back to them! So then once i got into contesting, i became even further perplexed and astounded.(yet disappointed that i'm not a big gun) What a great idea radiosport is! At school, several people have asked me "What is ham radio," after seeing it plastered on my car, notebooks, and clothing (because perhaps, some kid may have heard of this "ham radio," but doesn't know where to go, and notices the abundance of on me. I try to do my part.)) For me, its hard to explain it to a naive teen, since the world of ham radio is so broad and uninteresting to those teens therefore very specific of its participants. I try to tell them its a radio service that enables operators to participate in various activities including, public service (this always comes first), radiosport, electronics and etc. Almost always i get the proverbial "Why not use a cell phone or internet?" I go into further detail, but not too far to scare them off. So far my efforts have created one potential new ham. Go me! hihi. First of all, i feel as if there is a lack of publicity of amateur radio to catch the attention of possible hams. The only way(s) i can think of a kid who's not in a family of hams to become knowledgeable of ham radio is by people like me, the inclusion of ham radio in popular media such as tv, news, video games, etc. or by learning about different radio services after using cb's or walkie-talkies, or being in the boy scouts (i have asked around our population of boy scouts, and none of them have ever heard of JOTA or radio merit badges). There's probably a few more out there i can't name, but this is what I, a 16y.o. knows. What if icom started doing tv commercials? Or on some network, a program about radio is started? Or WoW incorporates ham radio (hihi NN4RH)? That all would be very awesome, but i wonder why i don't see things like this already. I assume that its because only 0.2% of Americas population are hams which causes a financial pinch for televised radio programs (pardon the pun). Secondly, what does ham radio have to offer? I think a better question to ask is what does it have to offer to a teenager? Comparing ham radio to video games, ham radio has fast-paced action, the necessity of skill, a challenge (actually many challenges) and it keeps getting better with newer technology. However one of the bigger obstacles is the price. A brand new Vhf/uhf handheld like my IC-T7H costs $160. Maybe this is ok for one time...so the licensed kid asks his mom and somehow gets the radio, but soon realizes that vhf is boring and drops it. Hopefully an over the air elmer will tell him about hf! And then hf. An ft-817 new costs over 700 bucks...mom says nope. Yes, there are used radios on ebay and whatnot, but what kid wants used equipment..would they want a used 1990's nokia or an iPhone? The second obstacle is that to become a licensed ham, an exam is required. Most teens already take enough tests in school, so why would a kid voluntarily take one? And then realize you need to take two more! I believe an ideal youth would need to be self-motivated, self-disciplined (pretty much independent), analytical, intelligent, mature, curious, and interested in the workings of things. Add to that exposure to ham radio, and you've got yourself a teen operator. In further conclusion, i believe in the coming years there will be a dramatic decrease in age, but a not as dramatic shift in population. Hope you enjoyed my imput, Happy election season and 73 De N0SSC | ||
| N2EY | 2008-11-03 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| N2EY rote to AF6AY: "You've written enormous amounts about amateur radio (and other things) far beyond *your* personal experience." AF6AY: "No, not really." Yes, really, Len. For example, there's this posting of yours: http://tinyurl.com/27fbwe where you demean the real-life experiences of a US Coast Guard radio operator, even though you've never done what he did. You included a description of being on the receiving end of an artillery barrage in that post. But later you admitted that you'd never actually experienced one; you simply went by the descriptions of others: http://tinyurl.com/2tpq2l If it's OK for *you* to write such things (and much more) in a public forum without actually having experienced them yourself, why should the personal experiences of others matter one bit? AF6AY: "Let's look at all RADIO, not just the hobby activity called amateur radio." Why? This thread and this website are about Amateur Radio. AF6AY: "First, One does NOT have to be LICENSED to understand and use electronics, to be "hands-on" nor to have gotten their eduction solely from amateur publications." "eduction"? Nobody says Amateur Radio is the only way to learn electronics, Len. AF6AY: "Federal authorization to transmit RF on certain frequencies with certain modes is not some title of absolute power, no enoblement or royal title. Licensing is just a regulatory tool to reduce the chaos that was there in the earliest times of radio." It's also a recognition of the skills and abilities of those licensed. AF6AY: "Second, many radio services do NOT require licenses to operate their radios." However, those unlicensed radio services aren't given anywhere near the freedom that Radio Amateurs have. AF6AY: 'Most militaries of the world do not require possession of amateur radio licenses to operate high power radios, including HF-only radios. Most DoD contracts do not require ANY radio license of any kind to operate DoD-contract radios in the performance of that contract." They do, however, require authorization and strict compliance with the rules. And such authorization is not is not some title of absolute power, no enoblement or royal title. AF6AY: "Third, the entirety of electronics has been supported by commercial concerns and has gotten into many of the traditional non-electronic areas. 'Radio' is a subset of electronics." So what? Electronics is a subset of Electrical Engineering. AF6AY: "Amateur radio is a subset of all radio, is what its title implies, primarily a HOBBY activity that is NOT ALLOWED to be a commercial activity as a communications service provider." It's not just a hobby, though. AF6AY: "Fourth, the intellectual interest of electronics can provide the impetus for NON-radio-communications-interested persons to pursue a lifelong career in the field." That's nice. So what does any of that have to do with bringing youth into amateur radio? AF6AY: "Fifth, saying one HAS to be (amateur) licensed and be 'active' in radio communications is the ONLY way to 'understand' radio is utter nonsense." That's why nobody says such things except you, Len. However, it *is* true that you're not very experienced , knowledgeable nor active in *amateur* radio. AF6AY: "Even though that is the implication of most ARRL publications, it isn't true." It's not the implication of any ARRL publication I've ever seen, Len. And I've seen a lot of them. AF6AY: "MOST of the radios working in the world today do not require 'federally authorized' licensees to maintain them and certainly NOT to operate them (see taxi drivers, construction workers, businesses of many kinds, etc.)." Sure - certified, channelized radios of low power, with no operator adjustments needed, carefully designed so that little or no skill is needed to actually use them, and so that the operator cannot cause an on-air problem by misadjustment. Amateur radio isn't like that. AF6AY: "Were you ever listed on Ham Radio magazine masthead as Associate Editor? I was." But you weren't a ham, Len. All you did as an Associate Editor was check other people's articles, right? And you did that for only a few years. AF6AY: "You will see lots of my articles there before I became an editor." Lots of articles? Not really. Less than two dozen articles over a five-year period (1977-1982), plus a couple of comments. All of them theory, easily cribbed from textbooks, no construction articles. AF6AY: "Well, HR was an independent and had no ties to the ARRL. I'm sure you will still imply it was "no good" and stuff like that because only the ARRL knows what is good for ham radio." Not at all, 'ham radio' was a good little magazine, specializing in technical stuff. I have a couple of copies of Volume 1 Number 1, and some others, including one with an article about a hybrid CW transceiver that a bunch of us used on Field Day 1974. AF6AY: "When 11m CB was created in 1958 you were about 5 years old. You had NO personal experience with the first five years of 11m CB." N2ey: "How do you know? Lots of kids got 100 milliwatt CB "walkie talkies" in those days. Some had family members who were cb users. And anyone with an AM receiver and antenna capable of 27 MHz could listen in, even if they never became cbers." AF6AY: "So, we are to believe that a precocious 5-year-old can have instant knowledge of both theory and business to 'KNOW' all about a start-up design, manufacturing, and sales electronic activity, JUST from operating a little CB handheld?!?" No. But "the first five years of 11 meters" ended about 1963, when I was nine. The main point is about how cb users behaved, not about the manufacturing of the sets. N2EY: "Isn't what I wrote pretty much what happened?" AF6AY: "NO." So what was incorrect? Did cb users follow the FCC rules all through the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s? Were things like illegal power, jamming, failure to identify, "shooting skip" and using cb to evade law enforcement extreme rarities on 11 meters in those years? How about hams being blamed for interference caused by cbers using poorly-engineered high-power amplifiers - never happened, huh? AF6AY: "Some proper OBJECTIVE research will prove what really happened...and that my summation was correct." Your summation ignore the most important part: that after the first few years, the FCC lost control of 11 meter cb, and the whole thing turned into a mess that spilled over into other radio services. AF6AY: "There might be enough material on the Internet now to prove that." So go ahead and show us. AF6AY: "I really doubt you kept any scrapbooks on CB even if you were such a precocious tyke." Why would I bother with cb when I could get on the ham bands? However, I do have Allied and other catalogs from those years, and they show a considerable number of cb sets and accessories. Including linear amplifiers intended for amateur use on 10 meters that no cber ever used on 11 meters, right? (nudge nudge wink wink). ........... N2EY: "No, I'm telling it like it was." AF6AY: "Oh, dear, the precocious youngster in that era KNEW ALL ABOUT NON-amateur CB again." Len, what part of my account was incorrect? AF6AY: "The subject is Bringing Youth Into Amateur Radio." N2EY: "So why did you mention cb at all?" AF6AY: "It is called MENTORING anyplace else." In Amateur Radio it's called Elmering, Len. Listen to those who know more than you do, and learn something for a change. AF6AY: "I haven't enticed any youth into amateur radio." N2EY: "That's not surprising, considering the fact that you want to ban anyone under the age of 14 from even having an amateur radio license." AF6AY: "No, sweetums, I do NOT 'want' an age limit." Then why did you ask FCC to add one to the regulations? AF6AY: "You keep taking a long-ago document I wrote and selectively extracting things from it to suit your retribution needs." Not at all, Len. You asked FCC to ban everyone under the age of 14 years from getting any class of US amateur radio license. That request was made in formal Reply Comments to FCC. Now you say you don't want any such age limit/ban on young people. That's good; you've finally admitted you were wrong. AF6AY: "I'll say it again, anyone can read ALL of what I wrote at the FCC ECFS on Docket 98-143, date of 13 January 1999." All 15 pages or so, with the age-limit thing buried at the end, where hopefully none of us would see it and hold you accountable. But someone did see it. N2EY: "I think you're much more biased, Len. Plus you've never been a parent, right?" AF6AY: "'Raising' children, no." Yet you have all kinds of opinions and advice about how they should be treated. AF6AY: "I keep asking who and what YOUR children are and you always AVOID answering." You don't answer most of my questions, Len. Why should I answer yours? AF6AY: "You have probably never been married, either." Maybe I have, maybe I haven't. What does any of that matter? I could be happily married for decades, with several wonderful children and maybe even grandchildren. I could be a lifelong bachelor with a string of girlfriends. Or any of a hundred other variations on the theme, and you'd still behave the same insulting way towards me, if not worse. It's what you do to anyone who dares to disagree with you; I've seen you do it many many times to several people. So why should I give you any more personal information? If I've been married more years than you, and had more kids than you, does that mean I'm right and you're wrong about bringing youth into amateur radio? N2EY: "Well, Len, if 40-odd years ago I had met a ham with your attitude towards young people, and those who disagree with you, I might have been put off too." AF6AY: "Forty years ago I was 36, wasn't an amateur" Forty years ago I was 14, and an Advanced Class amateur radio operator. AF6AY: "My wife is a retired Social Worker, did that in Illinois and Washington (mostly private practice counseling in Washington). She has a Masters in Social Work from University of Illinois and another Masters in Education (from Wisconsin and Illinois)." But *you* do not have any of those accreditations, Len. AF6AY: "Our second marriage occurred too late for us to have children together. But, both she and I are agreed that "being a parent" does (absolutely) NOT make such a parent an expert on ALL children." Nobody says it does, Len. But it does give experience which you lack. It's funny how you claim that experience is all-important when you have it, and completely unimportant when you don't. Is your last name actually Palin, by any chance? AF6AY: "Most parents like to assign themselves as role-models of What Parents Should Be. Sort of a natural self-centeredness, one of many traits common to human beings. It is difficult to be objective about one's own family. Only a few brave souls do so in public forums." That's true - and you're not one of them. AF6AY: "Do you observe everything in GENERALITES, too?" What are "generalites", Len? Generals who have successfully lost weight? Now, Len, perhaps you can show specifics as to where what I wrote about the history of 11 meter cb was incorrect. I doubt you will - because you know I've told how it really happened. And I think you know that one of the big concerns of many hams is that the same thing NOT happen to amateur radio. 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-11-03 N2EY, still trying to make it into the Book-of-the-Month Club in e-ham, writes on 3 Nov 08: "You've written enormous amounts about amateur radio (and other things) far beyond *your* personal experience." No, not really. Let's look at all RADIO, not just the hobby activity called amateur radio. First, One does NOT have to be LICENSED to understand and use electronics, to be "hands-on" nor to have gotten their eduction solely from amateur publications. Federal authorization to transmit RF on certain frequencies with certain modes is not some title of absolute power, no enoblement or royal title. Licensing is just a regulatory tool to reduce the chaos that was there in the earliest times of radio. Second, many radio services do NOT require licenses to operate their radios. Most militaries of the world do not require possession of amateur radio licenses to operate high power radios, including HF-only radios. Most DoD contracts do not require ANY radio license of any kind to operate DoD-contract radios in the performance of that contract. Third, the entirety of electronics has been supported by commercial concerns and has gotten into many of the traditional non-electronic areas. 'Radio' is a subset of electronics. Amateur radio is a subset of all radio, is what its title implies, primarily a HOBBY activity that is NOT ALLOWED to be a commercial activity as a communications service provider. 'Amateur' is the opposite of professional (i.e., performing services for a profit), ergo a NON-profit. Hobbies are Non-profit-making activities. Fourth, the intellectual interest of electronics can provide the impetus for NON-radio-communications-interested persons to pursue a lifelong career in the field. Electronics is a vast trillion-dollar industry worldwide. The majority, indeed vast majority, of those IN the industry got into it because of the wide scope of its interesting activity touching many, many areas, stimulating to all those who did NOT get there solely through fooling around with simple HF radios when they were kids. [I know that will hit raw nerves of old-timer hams but it is a fact of life today and was so even before WWII] Fifth, saying one HAS to be (amateur) licensed and be 'active' in radio communications is the ONLY way to 'understand' radio is utter nonsense. Even though that is the implication of most ARRL publications, it isn't true. MOST of the radios working in the world today do not require 'federally authorized' licensees to maintain them and certainly NOT to operate them (see taxi drivers, construction workers, businesses of many kinds, etc.). Were you ever listed on Ham Radio magazine masthead as Associate Editor? I was. You will see lots of my articles there before I became an editor. Well, HR was an independent and had no ties to the ARRL. I'm sure you will still imply it was "no good" and stuff like that because only the ARRL knows what is good for ham radio. ........... AF6AY: "When 11m CB was created in 1958 you were about 5 years old. You had NO personal experience with the first five years of 11m CB." N2ey: "How do you know? Lots of kids got 100 milliwatt CB "walkie talkies" in those days. Some had family members who were cb users. And anyone with an AM receiver and antenna capable of 27 MHz could listen in, even if they never became cbers." So, we are to believe that a precocious 5-year-old can have instant knowledge of both theory and business to 'KNOW' all about a start-up design, manufacturing, and sales electronic activity, JUST from operating a little CB handheld?!? That's ridiculous. .......... N2EY: "Where you active in cb after 1963?" I didn't know I was "active in CB" before 1963. I have a cell phone. I'm not "active" in cellular telephony. The word is 'were.' As to 'where,' it was in southern California through Illinois and in 1977, on the road. ........... N2EY: "Isn't what I wrote pretty much what happened?" NO. Some proper OBJECTIVE research will prove what really happened...and that my summation was correct. There might be enough material on the Internet now to prove that. Off the web you will have to go through lots of paper documents, ads, flyers, news, etc. I really doubt you kept any scrapbooks on CB even if you were such a precocious tyke. ........... N2EY: "No, I'm telling it like it was." Oh, dear, the precocious youngster in that era KNEW ALL ABOUT NON-amateur CB again. You were busy installing and servicing CBs? You were designing a prototype for possible production by a start-up CB company? Of course you were at age 5 to 10...then you were seduced by that state-of-the-art communications mode called CW and got your first amateur radio license at age 13. Yawn. .......... AF6AY: "The subject is Bringing Youth Into Amateur Radio." N2EY: "So why did you mention cb at all?" It was just ONE 'mention' out of many in a reply to another and did NOT pay spay-shul attention to CB. Note: Class C and Class D CB of 1958 was allocated in the FORMER (US) amateur radio band called 11m. I touched nerves of those later generations of hams carrying the torch for bigotry and hatred towards all CB activity and their evil users. :-) ............ AF6AY: "What youth have YOU enticed into ham radio?" N2EY: "Well, I wouldn't use the word "enticed". It's called "Elmering", Len." It is called MENTORING anyplace else. LECTURING on What Is Good And Proper might be a sub-title. :-) .......... AF6AY: "I haven't enticed any youth into amateur radio." N2EY: "That's not surprising, considering the fact that you want to ban anyone under the age of 14 from even having an amateur radio license." Oh, oh, back to Jimmie getting ten kinds of hurt from a rec.radio.amateur.policy enemy nearly a decade ago. :-) I've been a guest lecturer at magnet schools here. Even in technologies I didn't directly work in. For example, with the aid of a modified hula-hoop I could explain how a rocket engine works by getting the cooperation of four students. No, no eyebrows were burned off and nobody left the ground. :-) Those went well and all paid attention. No, sweetums, I do NOT 'want' an age limit. You keep taking a long-ago document I wrote and selectively extracting things from it to suit your retribution needs. I'll say it again, anyone can read ALL of what I wrote at the FCC ECFS on Docket 98-143, date of 13 January 1999. 98-143 was closed long ago. R&O 99-612, released in December, 1999, set up the NEW, slimmed-down "Reconstruction Act" policy effective in 2000. .......... N2EY: "I think you're much more biased, Len. Plus you've never been a parent, right?" 'Raising' children, no. Ya know, I keep asking who and what YOUR children are and you always AVOID answering. You have probably never been married, either. <shrug> N2EY: "Well, Len, if 40-odd years ago I had met a ham with your attitude towards young people, and those who disagree with you, I might have been put off too." Awwww. Forty years ago I was 36, wasn't an amateur, just a professional (federally-licensed!) in radio and finally getting over my first wife's all-too-early passing. I was still working IN the electronics industry, though, and still having electronics as a hobby. It was an absorbing activity and helped me to recover from personal tragedy. For a long while I was a bachelor. I re-connected with my high school sweetheart much later and got married again. That re-connection was (initially) through the Internet. Despite your love affair with 40m CW and orgasmic sessions of morse code operating, the Internet would still have been created, spread, and become part of humankind's social fabric. I'm absolutely SURE you would be on it somewhere arguing that YOU and only YOU have the absolute truth about whatever you are talking (or lecturing) about. :-) My wife is a retired Social Worker, did that in Illinois and Washington (mostly private practice counseling in Washington). She has a Masters in Social Work from University of Illinois and another Masters in Education (from Wisconsin and Illinois). Our second marriage occurred too late for us to have children together. But, both she and I are agreed that "being a parent" does (absolutely) NOT make such a parent an expert on ALL children. Far from it. Most parents like to assign themselves as role-models of What Parents Should Be. Sort of a natural self-centeredness, one of many traits common to human beings. It is difficult to be objective about one's own family. Only a few brave souls do so in public forums. ........... N2EY: "One thing I have observed about "young people" is that their interests vary all over the place, and broad sweeping statements about what will and won't interest them are invariably wrong." Do you observe everything in GENERALITES, too? Your statements seem to indicate that anything YOU say is "right" and anyone in opposition to those is "wrong." Now it has become 'invariably' wrong. Ten-four. Roger that. ........... N2EY: "And despite all the new technologies, young people still read books. Real books, printed on paper, with words and no pictures." Jimmie, if you are going to crib a phrase of mine, get it right. It is "printed with real ink on real paper." :-) Hokay, now tell me how schematics, charts, and graphs can be described effectively only in words. A Smith Chart word-ONLY description ought to be interesting. :-) ........... N2EY: "The way to bring youth into Amateur Radio is to publicize what's unique about Amateur Radio, and help those who are interested get started." Right...just follow what the ARRL has been saying it does for years. Stay with them and worship their words. Brainwashing is painless! :-) Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-03 N2EY: "You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that." AF6AY: "Not by your personal experience." So what, Len? You've written enormous amounts about amateur radio (and other things) far beyond *your* personal experience. AF6AY: "When 11m CB was created in 1958 you were about 5 years old. You had NO personal experience with the first five years of 11m CB." How do you know? Lots of kids got 100 milliwatt CB "walkie talkies" in those days. Some had family members who were cb users. And anyone with an AM receiver and antenna capable of 27 MHz could listen in, even if they never became cbers. AF6AY: "I did and millions of others did." That's nice, Len. Where you active in cb after 1963? Isn't what I wrote pretty much what happened? AF6AY: "You are only 'reporting' what you've seen on ham radio forums in the last two decades or so." No, I'm telling it like it was. And recall that what I wrote about those first five years was this: (From previous posting) 'And for the first few years, 11 meter CB wasn't too bad. CB users followed the rules and enjoyed their radios. After all, the FCC had set up the rules and would enforce them - right? But by the late 1960s, some CBers were simply ignoring the FCC rules. They'd run illegal high power to big antennas, contact distant stations, intentionally interfere with others, etc. They began to adopt "handles" (pseudonyms) and use phony accents to hide their real identities. Many simply didn't bother with licenses at all. Before long, the rules-following CB users were completely outnumbered, and soon disappeared. FCC finally gave up trying to license cb users completely.' What part of that isn't true for the time period mentioned (late 1960s?) N2EY: "CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC." AF6AY: "What something was "meant for" and ACTUAL USE can differ widely. In the first 5 years of 11m CB, the ACTUAL USE was for "personal communications," particularly in urban areas. What was unusual was that the average CB-er of that time was in the thirty-something age group, NOT youth. Contrary to politically-correct ham opinion, there was little REAL policing of CB by the FCC, there was NO widespread "shooting skip" and the "high power" CB amplifiers were extremely rare. That would continue for the next decade when the off-shore radio makers entered the market. Nearly ALL CB users were CASUAL users, except the truckers found that it was an excellent way to break the boredom of driving for hours on end." But cb didn't stay that way, did it? AF6AY: "The only REAL "high power" users were those who bought General Radiotelephone transceivers, made in nearby Burbank, CA." Really? *NOBODY* made "linear amplifiers" for 11 meters? *NOBODY* used them on 11 meters in the 1960s? AF6AY: "What got the Electronic Industries Association (EIA) in a dither was the flood of off-shore designed-and-made 11m CB sets in the 1960s." Is that why, in the mid 1970s, the EIA proposed moving CB to 220-225 MHz? AF6AY: "You don't realize that because you saw so little of it first-hand that nearly every USA radio maker had at least one 11m CB transceiver in their product line in the 1960s." You're wrong, Len. I was there and I saw it. My first personal Allied catalog was 1965 or 1966, and it had lots of cb stuff in it. Collins never made any cb sets. Nor did Drake, btw. AF6AY: "The "lack of popularity" came about simply because the market (largely supported by truckers) SATURATED. Saturation to the point of new sets just replacing old ones." No, that's not true, Len. In the 1970s a lot of folks had cb sets in their cars and homes. The antennas were the giveaway; anyone who knew a little radio knew what to look for. CB antennas on homes or cars are extremely rare these days. AF6AY: "Prompting/lobbying for more channels came about from manufacturing groups wanting to increase their edge in an already-dwindling market. Forty channels with dozens of users for each one in an urban area just isn't enough, even when some set designs used SSB techniques to break through." 80 channels (if SSB is used) is plenty for an urban area *IF* the users follow the rules (low power, short conversations, local stuff only). But that's not how cb worked in the 1970s. The EIA proposal of the 1970s would have moved 11 meter CB to 220 MHz. Had that happened, all 11 meter cbers would have had to replace their radio sets, antennas, and most accessories. Only the coax, power supplies and a few accessories might have been usable. Plus there wouldn't be much "skip" on 220. If the market was dwindling, why did they need more channels? AF6AY: "The EIA and other industry associations were trying to fight the flood of imports in the 1960s and into the 1970s." How would reallocating 220 do that? The Japanese could make Class E cb sets as easily and cheaply as Class D. N2EY: "This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them." AF6AY: "all you've done is to keep alive the old-timer ham hatred and bigotry of CB that started when you were about 5 years old." What have I written about cb history that isn't the plain and simple facts? Do you think CB always was and still is a well-ordered radio service where almost everyone follows FCC regulations? Do you think amateur radio should become more like the cb of the 1970s? AF6AY: "You have NO first-hand experience in that and all you are doing is repeating what you've read on amateur radio forums." Len, I've had receivers capable of listening to 11 meters since about 1966. Also a lot of friends who were involved in cb. I know what happened to that radio service. SO do you but you won't admit it. N2EY: "Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era." AF6AY: "You have a very mixed-up timeline. The CB market saturated a quarter century ago." 1983? Now who has a mixed up timeline? AF6AY: "Cellular telephony installations increased in earnest in the 1990s, can be seen today all along major highways of the USA. The Internet went public in 1991 but took about four years to make enough steam to really roll out." So what? The point is, cb isn't a fad anymore, and its popularity is far less than what it was in the late 1960s and 1970s. Just look at the lack of cb antennas on cars and homes. AF6AY: "Had you ever been OUT on the highways of the USA any time from the 1970s to the present you would have experienced - first hand - that there are FEW who bother driving at ANY posted speed limit." Actually, Len, I've been "out on the highways of the USA" since the 1950s. Compliance with speed limits varies all over the place. But that's not the point. AF6AY: "Truckers have continued to cruise at 70 MPH despite any "ban" on maximum speed at any time. That is said NOT to condone such behavior, simply reporting what is atually done, as observed first-hand, ON the highways." There's a big difference between doing 70 mph when the posted speed is 65, and fuel is plentiful, and doing 70 mph when the posted speed is 55 and fuel is in short supply. Fuel mileage drops dramatically with speed above about 50 MPH because the aerodynamic resistance increases exponentially, not linearly. But one big point is this: the now-repealed Federal 55 mph speed limit was unpopular with a considerable number of people. It bothered some folks enough that they'd use cb to alert each other of law-enforcement activities, to facilitate speeding without getting caught. The main point in all this cb discussion, though, is that while CB *started out* as a well-behaved radio service, it didn't stay that way. By the mid-1970s it was completely out of FCC's control. That's not a good thing, IMHO. And it all happened despite the fact that there was a minimum-age requirement for a CB license. (US ham radio licenses have never had such a requirement). AF6AY: "Try, please TRY to get on the Article SUBJECT" You're the one who brought up cb, Len. I'm simply correcting your mistakes on its history. AF6AY: "The subject is Bringing Youth Into Amateur Radio." So why did you mention cb at all? AF6AY: "What youth have YOU enticed into ham radio?" Well, I wouldn't use the word "enticed". What I have done is to publicize Amateur Radio to people of all ages. Some are interested, most are not, because "radio for its own sake" is something of a niche activity. No problem, the main thing is to make sure people know what ham radio is, not to hard-sell them. I've taught classes in ham radio (theory and Morse Code), helped new hams set up stations, done demonstrations of ham radio (one of the prime reasons for Field Day), and much more, like on-line help to other hams with less experience. It's called "Elmering", Len. AF6AY: "I haven't enticed any youth into amateur radio." That's not surprising, considering the fact that you want to ban anyone under the age of 14 from even having an amateur radio license. Seems to be a personal problem of yours: http://tinyurl.com/2akck9 AF6AY: "I'm acquainted with a sizeable number of non-radio people, including some under 18 years of age. I can understand a bit better what the general group of young people prefer, see it reflected in the marketplace and advertising, with less bias than the average parent can." I think you're much more biased, Len. Plus you've never been a parent, right? AF6AY: "In general those younger people want to do what intrigues them, are not enthused by the same things that enticed a fifty-something ham 40 years ago." Well, Len, if 40-odd years ago I had met a ham with your attitude towards young people, and those who disagree with you, I might have been put off too. -- One thing I have observed about "young people" is that their interests vary all over the place, and broad sweeping statements about what will and won't interest them are invariably wrong. For example, despite all the common technologies of today that did not exist 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, young people still display lots of interest in "old fashioned" things. Like sports (soccer, baseball, and basketball are big around here, for girls and boys), going to movies (even though they have YouTube, DVD players, FiOS, satellites and HDTV), etc. Halloween is big around here; so are the performing arts (band, orchestra, plays, parades). And despite all the new technologies, young people still read books. Real books, printed on paper, with words and no pictures. The way to bring youth into Amateur Radio is to publicize what's unique about Amateur Radio, and help those who are interested get started. 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-11-02 N2EY trotted out his "radio history for dummies" notebook, poison pen, and wrote: "You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that." Not by your personal experience. When 11m CB was created in 1958 you were about 5 years old. You had NO personal experience with the first five years of 11m CB. I did and millions of others did. You are only 'reporting' what you've seen on ham radio forums in the last two decades or so. .......... N2EY: "CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC." What something was "meant for" and ACTUAL USE can differ widely. In the first 5 years of 11m CB, the ACTUAL USE was for "personal communications," particularly in urban areas. What was unusual was that the average CB-er of that time was in the thirty-something age group, NOT youth. Contrary to politically-correct ham opinion, there was little REAL policing of CB by the FCC, there was NO widespread "shooting skip" and the "high power" CB amplifiers were extremely rare. That would continue for the next decade when the off-shore radio makers entered the market. Nearly ALL CB users were CASUAL users, except the truckers found that it was an excellent way to break the boredom of driving for hours on end. The only REAL "high power" users were those who bought General Radiotelephone transceivers, made in nearby Burbank, CA. "General" used a TV horizontal sweep tube for a final and had a built-in jumper to "allow high power operation when the FCC approves of that." The "high power" was about 25 to 30 W peak RF but still with down-modulation. Many who bought a General around here immediately did the jumper change or asked someone to do it for them. I never did that, Jimmie, don't start in with your usual accusatory allusions. General Radiotelephone didn't make it into big-time CB sales and tried to get into business radio. They moved from their second-floor Hq and assembly area on Burbank Boulevard some time in the late 1960s and might still be around somewhere in L.A. What is interesting is that General liked to brag about their partly-completed tower (for the future) but never completed it. That initial construction is still standing on the roof of their original business building. A post-production sound editing firm occupies the second floor now. While assembly was 100% done by workers on-site (all point-to-point hand wiring), components were the cheapest available. Esthetically, the exterior designs must have been conceived by color-blind elders without a trace of artistic sense. What got the Electronic Industries Association (EIA) in a dither was the flood of off-shore designed-and-made 11m CB sets in the 1960s. You don't realize that because you saw so little of it first-hand that nearly every USA radio maker had at least one 11m CB transceiver in their product line in the 1960s. All of those are long GONE and everything of what is left is made off-shore now. The "lack of popularity" came about simply because the market (largely supported by truckers) SATURATED. Saturation to the point of new sets just replacing old ones. Prompting/lobbying for more channels came about from manufacturing groups wanting to increase their edge in an already-dwindling market. Forty channels with dozens of users for each one in an urban area just isn't enough, even when some set designs used SSB techniques to break through. The EIA and other industry associations were trying to fight the flood of imports in the 1960s and into the 1970s. Some manufacturers bowed to the inevitable. An example is RCA Corporation announcing that all of their black-and-white TV models would be made off-shore from about 1973 and after (year approximate based on memories of then while working for RCA EASD in Van Nuys, CA; RCA TV division was in Indianapolis, IN). Today I think that ALL new TV receivers on the consumer market in the USA are made off-shore. ............... N2EY: "This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them." Sonny, all you've done is to keep alive the old-timer ham hatred and bigotry of CB that started when you were about 5 years old. You have NO first-hand experience in that and all you are doing is repeating what you've read on amateur radio forums. For example: N2EY: "Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era." You have a very mixed-up timeline. The CB market saturated a quarter century ago. Cellular telephony installations increased in earnest in the 1990s, can be seen today all along major highways of the USA. The Internet went public in 1991 but took about four years to make enough steam to really roll out. Had you ever been OUT on the highways of the USA any time from the 1970s to the present you would have experienced - first hand - that there are FEW who bother driving at ANY posted speed limit. Truckers have continued to cruise at 70 MPH despite any "ban" on maximum speed at any time. That is said NOT to condone such behavior, simply reporting what is atually done, as observed first-hand, ON the highways. Following your pattern of messaging, you will now come back with a LECTURE on driving, safe speeds, etc. Give up the lecturing, Jimmie. ............ N2EY: "You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it?" Wrong again. Not past tense. My E.F.Johnson Viking Messenger (bought at Henry Radio in Los Angeles in early 1958) is gathering dust on a shelf in the workshop. So is a Bendix Marine Division tube type made OEM by some other firm (half-price sale by a Bendix rep friend). They might still work. Old designs, needed crystal control on each channel, both Rx and Tx. Vibrator HV supply in both, NOT reliable, never were for mobile radios. Nobody wants such things now. Based on contemporary CB transceivers of the time, BOTH are average size, not "miniaturized." I am not "miniaturized" either and still operational. Any more cracks? ........... Try, please TRY to get on the Article SUBJECT, Jimmie. The subject is Bringing Youth Into Amateur Radio. What youth have YOU enticed into ham radio? Did they actually enter after you LECTURED them using mixed-up timeline "history" cribs? I haven't enticed any youth into amateur radio. I've enticed two younger people to enter the electronics industry and both did, are still working in it. But, as you keep reminding everyone, I am a "newcomer" to amateur radio and therefore can't possibly know anything. <shrug> I'm acquainted with a sizeable number of non-radio people, including some under 18 years of age. I can understand a bit better what the general group of young people prefer, see it reflected in the marketplace and advertising, with less bias than the average parent can. In general those younger people want to do what intrigues them, are not enthused by the same things that enticed a fifty-something ham 40 years ago. Yet, fifty-something (and older) marketing people CAN get them enthused. There's a lesson to be learned in that, subliminal perhaps, but what Don Keith, N4KC, alluded to in his message. Don IS in marketing. One HAS to see into young people's minds, not force them in with what YOU think they should know. Certainly NOT with what was written by the ARRL a half century ago. Len, AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' ... Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably." You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that. CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC. And for the first few years, 11 meter CB wasn't too bad. CB users followed the rules and enjoyed their radios. After all, the FCC had set up the rules and would enforce them - right? But by the late 1960s, some CBers were simply ignoring the FCC rules. They'd run illegal high power to big antennas, contact distant stations, intentionally interfere with others, etc. They began to adopt "handles" (pseudonyms) and use phony accents to hide their real identities. Many simply didn't bother with licenses at all. Before long, the rules-following CB users were completely outnumbered, and soon disappeared. FCC finally gave up trying to license cb users completely. The oil crises of the 1970s, and the resulting 55 mph speed limit, were a major promotion for cb in the 1970s. CB became a way for truckers and others to avoid law enforcement officers and the speed limit, to the point that movies were made glorifying this aspect of CB. What really bothered many hams was the fact that these antics were not confined to the 23 channels of 11 meters. The use of illegal and often poorly-designed-and-operated high power amplifiers by cb users resulted in TV interference and other RFI problems. These problems were often blamed on hams with perfectly clean and legal transmitters, because the hams were easily located, identified themselves on the air and were known to FCC. To add to the mess, some CB users modified their radios to operate outside the legal CB channels, invading the allocations of other radio services near 27 MHz, including the 10 meter ham band. This sort of activity, called "HFing" or "freebanding", became so prevalent that in 1978 FCC passed regulations against the sale of various forms of RF power amplifiers. These regulations had little effect on the illegals, though. In the 1970s, the EIA (a manufacturer's group) petitioned FCC to reallocate the 220 MHz ham band to a new "Class E" CB service, using FM on many more channels. Both 11 meter CB users and hams opposed this, for obvious reasons. (The hams didn't want to lose another band while the CB users didn't want to have to replace practically their entire setups, and give up much of the long-distance capabilities of 11 meters). This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them. Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era. The ironic thing is that, when CB had licenses, there was a minimum-age requirement for the license. 15 years of age, IIRC. You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-10-31 AB7E posted on October 30, 2008: "If 30 years ago you had the choice between a hobby that mostly just allowed you to talk into a mic (or tap out CW) when the band was open (and only to those who had licenses) and required you to have a bunch of different unique hardware (including outdoor antennas that upset the neighbors), versus being able to speak with all of your friends anytime with a cellphone smaller than your wallet or play interactive games online with stunning graphics (on a piece of hardware you already have and complete with free group voice chat) anytime with anyone anywhere in the world ... which would you have chosen?? I sincerely doubt it would have been ham radio." In all honesty I have to agree with that. Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' Before that end-of-the-1950s period the 'radio' interest had been with 'Hi-Fi' and the excellence of recordings on long-play vinyl grooved discs, then stereo tape, and finally, the beginning of widespread stereo FM broadcasting. ............. AB7E: "And of course this has nothing to do with the "laziness" or "immediate gratification" grumpy old men (ham radio is full of them) like to attribute to youngsters. Check out how many retired folks of both sexes are active participants in World of Warcraft or Second Life ... they dwarf late-in-life recruits to ham radio by orders of magnitude." I don't doubt it. Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably. In the next semi-niche hobby, personal computers, the BBS was born in the late 1970s and brought together a way-wider group of social interacters. BBSers who interacted in-person as well as on the phone lines with computer-modems were more homogenous representatives of the population. Few were radio-active but all were eager to try out this brand new medium of communications. In urban areas this kept on expanding until the Internet went public in 1991 and provided the first widespread international communications participation by computer-modem. In the 1980s the computer hobbyist community was rivaling amateur radio numbers, having more special-interest independent computer hobbyist magazines than were published in the USA at the time. By 1990 the cell phone was becoming smaller and less expensive and growing all over the country. In a decade it would become so small and so numerous that one in ten Americans were cell phone subscribers. By 2004 one in three Americans had cell phone subscriptions; teen-agers were able to use them to interact with other teeners and the 'texting' craze had begun. Why not? The price was far lower than portable ham gear, could be carried in a shirt pocket or small purse and used much without racking up a sizeable phone bill. ............ AB7E: "I would gladly try to mentor anyone who showed a budding interest in ham radio, but I don't see the point in trying to be an evangelist for the hobby." I would rather evangelize the electronics industry to younger people. It is far bigger than amateurism in radio and has FAR greater scope and variation on what it can do. It can also provide a very decent wage and be a fun job at the same time. Amateur radio is a niche hobby and the old-timers have managed to both stratify it and mummify it in old standards and practices suitable for long-past times. For younger people, the rationale that a ham license lets you "advance the state of the radio art and talk to foreign folk for 'free' on one's own station" is trite and dated. It might have worked in the 1960s but this is four decades (and two generations) later. For one thing it is definitely NOT 'free' since a decent station for HF is going to cost more than a complete PC set-up. For another, HF is NOT that reliable 24/7 and the average lower-power HF ham bands are at the mercy of the ionosphere. The only 'advancing the art' in HF radio is inside the radios and that technology has almost saturated. .............. AB7E: "Like NN4RH says, kids aren't idiots (or lazy when it comes to interesting things), and if they have any interest in what ham radio has to offer they will find it." Absolutely true. Based on my 'beginner, newbie' life experience over the last 76 years, EVERY old-generation curmudgeon gets all disgusted about the do-nothing younger generation. They just won't recognize that that THEY were once considered 'do-nothing' young wastrels by generation-older curmudgeons of their day. :-) I've read of the same attitudes prevalent in most societies over previous centuries...Pompeii curmudgeons were probably cussing THEIR do-nothing young folks just before Vesuvious blew its top and buried everyone. :-) .............. AB7E: "Most of this talk about enticing young folks into the hobby (and it is just a hobby ... it isn't the path to heaven) simply sounds to me like people in a niche activity looking for validation. Why else would you consider it to be important?" Much of the TALK is simply rationalization. On the other hand, if license numbers start to drop again and newcomers don't replace the usual human-attrition expirations, that WILL be noticed by commercial groups that might want to use ham bands for other purposes. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : AB7E on 2008-10-31 KE7UXE: "Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal." How do you figure? That isn't even remotely true. Not only is global internet voice chat full duplex, FM quality, real time, and free ... people can use it while collaborating in an online game, or while working together on a drawing or file, or while streaming music to each other. None of that is new, either ... it's been available for years from multiple sources. This is exactly what I mean. Hams lament that kids today are too lazy and disconnected with technology to discover ham radio, and the reality is that hams are too disconnected to understand the kinds of alternatives for kids that make ham radio merely a legacy curiosity for them. Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 "ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board." No it isn't...it is giving them friends to text who happen to be in Estonia, Spain and Japan. Sadly, for many the alure of ham radio is the gear. IMO it ought to be the opportunity to talk with a wide variety of people from all over the world. Ham radio is a social activity. That is what kids might like. If later they get interested in the equipment, so be it. Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal. Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| K6LHA | 2008-11-03 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| N2EY, still trying to make it into the Book-of-the-Month Club in e-ham, writes on 3 Nov 08: "You've written enormous amounts about amateur radio (and other things) far beyond *your* personal experience." No, not really. Let's look at all RADIO, not just the hobby activity called amateur radio. First, One does NOT have to be LICENSED to understand and use electronics, to be "hands-on" nor to have gotten their eduction solely from amateur publications. Federal authorization to transmit RF on certain frequencies with certain modes is not some title of absolute power, no enoblement or royal title. Licensing is just a regulatory tool to reduce the chaos that was there in the earliest times of radio. Second, many radio services do NOT require licenses to operate their radios. Most militaries of the world do not require possession of amateur radio licenses to operate high power radios, including HF-only radios. Most DoD contracts do not require ANY radio license of any kind to operate DoD-contract radios in the performance of that contract. Third, the entirety of electronics has been supported by commercial concerns and has gotten into many of the traditional non-electronic areas. 'Radio' is a subset of electronics. Amateur radio is a subset of all radio, is what its title implies, primarily a HOBBY activity that is NOT ALLOWED to be a commercial activity as a communications service provider. 'Amateur' is the opposite of professional (i.e., performing services for a profit), ergo a NON-profit. Hobbies are Non-profit-making activities. Fourth, the intellectual interest of electronics can provide the impetus for NON-radio-communications-interested persons to pursue a lifelong career in the field. Electronics is a vast trillion-dollar industry worldwide. The majority, indeed vast majority, of those IN the industry got into it because of the wide scope of its interesting activity touching many, many areas, stimulating to all those who did NOT get there solely through fooling around with simple HF radios when they were kids. [I know that will hit raw nerves of old-timer hams but it is a fact of life today and was so even before WWII] Fifth, saying one HAS to be (amateur) licensed and be 'active' in radio communications is the ONLY way to 'understand' radio is utter nonsense. Even though that is the implication of most ARRL publications, it isn't true. MOST of the radios working in the world today do not require 'federally authorized' licensees to maintain them and certainly NOT to operate them (see taxi drivers, construction workers, businesses of many kinds, etc.). Were you ever listed on Ham Radio magazine masthead as Associate Editor? I was. You will see lots of my articles there before I became an editor. Well, HR was an independent and had no ties to the ARRL. I'm sure you will still imply it was "no good" and stuff like that because only the ARRL knows what is good for ham radio. ........... AF6AY: "When 11m CB was created in 1958 you were about 5 years old. You had NO personal experience with the first five years of 11m CB." N2ey: "How do you know? Lots of kids got 100 milliwatt CB "walkie talkies" in those days. Some had family members who were cb users. And anyone with an AM receiver and antenna capable of 27 MHz could listen in, even if they never became cbers." So, we are to believe that a precocious 5-year-old can have instant knowledge of both theory and business to 'KNOW' all about a start-up design, manufacturing, and sales electronic activity, JUST from operating a little CB handheld?!? That's ridiculous. .......... N2EY: "Where you active in cb after 1963?" I didn't know I was "active in CB" before 1963. I have a cell phone. I'm not "active" in cellular telephony. The word is 'were.' As to 'where,' it was in southern California through Illinois and in 1977, on the road. ........... N2EY: "Isn't what I wrote pretty much what happened?" NO. Some proper OBJECTIVE research will prove what really happened...and that my summation was correct. There might be enough material on the Internet now to prove that. Off the web you will have to go through lots of paper documents, ads, flyers, news, etc. I really doubt you kept any scrapbooks on CB even if you were such a precocious tyke. ........... N2EY: "No, I'm telling it like it was." Oh, dear, the precocious youngster in that era KNEW ALL ABOUT NON-amateur CB again. You were busy installing and servicing CBs? You were designing a prototype for possible production by a start-up CB company? Of course you were at age 5 to 10...then you were seduced by that state-of-the-art communications mode called CW and got your first amateur radio license at age 13. Yawn. .......... AF6AY: "The subject is Bringing Youth Into Amateur Radio." N2EY: "So why did you mention cb at all?" It was just ONE 'mention' out of many in a reply to another and did NOT pay spay-shul attention to CB. Note: Class C and Class D CB of 1958 was allocated in the FORMER (US) amateur radio band called 11m. I touched nerves of those later generations of hams carrying the torch for bigotry and hatred towards all CB activity and their evil users. :-) ............ AF6AY: "What youth have YOU enticed into ham radio?" N2EY: "Well, I wouldn't use the word "enticed". It's called "Elmering", Len." It is called MENTORING anyplace else. LECTURING on What Is Good And Proper might be a sub-title. :-) .......... AF6AY: "I haven't enticed any youth into amateur radio." N2EY: "That's not surprising, considering the fact that you want to ban anyone under the age of 14 from even having an amateur radio license." Oh, oh, back to Jimmie getting ten kinds of hurt from a rec.radio.amateur.policy enemy nearly a decade ago. :-) I've been a guest lecturer at magnet schools here. Even in technologies I didn't directly work in. For example, with the aid of a modified hula-hoop I could explain how a rocket engine works by getting the cooperation of four students. No, no eyebrows were burned off and nobody left the ground. :-) Those went well and all paid attention. No, sweetums, I do NOT 'want' an age limit. You keep taking a long-ago document I wrote and selectively extracting things from it to suit your retribution needs. I'll say it again, anyone can read ALL of what I wrote at the FCC ECFS on Docket 98-143, date of 13 January 1999. 98-143 was closed long ago. R&O 99-612, released in December, 1999, set up the NEW, slimmed-down "Reconstruction Act" policy effective in 2000. .......... N2EY: "I think you're much more biased, Len. Plus you've never been a parent, right?" 'Raising' children, no. Ya know, I keep asking who and what YOUR children are and you always AVOID answering. You have probably never been married, either. <shrug> N2EY: "Well, Len, if 40-odd years ago I had met a ham with your attitude towards young people, and those who disagree with you, I might have been put off too." Awwww. Forty years ago I was 36, wasn't an amateur, just a professional (federally-licensed!) in radio and finally getting over my first wife's all-too-early passing. I was still working IN the electronics industry, though, and still having electronics as a hobby. It was an absorbing activity and helped me to recover from personal tragedy. For a long while I was a bachelor. I re-connected with my high school sweetheart much later and got married again. That re-connection was (initially) through the Internet. Despite your love affair with 40m CW and orgasmic sessions of morse code operating, the Internet would still have been created, spread, and become part of humankind's social fabric. I'm absolutely SURE you would be on it somewhere arguing that YOU and only YOU have the absolute truth about whatever you are talking (or lecturing) about. :-) My wife is a retired Social Worker, did that in Illinois and Washington (mostly private practice counseling in Washington). She has a Masters in Social Work from University of Illinois and another Masters in Education (from Wisconsin and Illinois). Our second marriage occurred too late for us to have children together. But, both she and I are agreed that "being a parent" does (absolutely) NOT make such a parent an expert on ALL children. Far from it. Most parents like to assign themselves as role-models of What Parents Should Be. Sort of a natural self-centeredness, one of many traits common to human beings. It is difficult to be objective about one's own family. Only a few brave souls do so in public forums. ........... N2EY: "One thing I have observed about "young people" is that their interests vary all over the place, and broad sweeping statements about what will and won't interest them are invariably wrong." Do you observe everything in GENERALITES, too? Your statements seem to indicate that anything YOU say is "right" and anyone in opposition to those is "wrong." Now it has become 'invariably' wrong. Ten-four. Roger that. ........... N2EY: "And despite all the new technologies, young people still read books. Real books, printed on paper, with words and no pictures." Jimmie, if you are going to crib a phrase of mine, get it right. It is "printed with real ink on real paper." :-) Hokay, now tell me how schematics, charts, and graphs can be described effectively only in words. A Smith Chart word-ONLY description ought to be interesting. :-) ........... N2EY: "The way to bring youth into Amateur Radio is to publicize what's unique about Amateur Radio, and help those who are interested get started." Right...just follow what the ARRL has been saying it does for years. Stay with them and worship their words. Brainwashing is painless! :-) Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-03 N2EY: "You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that." AF6AY: "Not by your personal experience." So what, Len? You've written enormous amounts about amateur radio (and other things) far beyond *your* personal experience. AF6AY: "When 11m CB was created in 1958 you were about 5 years old. You had NO personal experience with the first five years of 11m CB." How do you know? Lots of kids got 100 milliwatt CB "walkie talkies" in those days. Some had family members who were cb users. And anyone with an AM receiver and antenna capable of 27 MHz could listen in, even if they never became cbers. AF6AY: "I did and millions of others did." That's nice, Len. Where you active in cb after 1963? Isn't what I wrote pretty much what happened? AF6AY: "You are only 'reporting' what you've seen on ham radio forums in the last two decades or so." No, I'm telling it like it was. And recall that what I wrote about those first five years was this: (From previous posting) 'And for the first few years, 11 meter CB wasn't too bad. CB users followed the rules and enjoyed their radios. After all, the FCC had set up the rules and would enforce them - right? But by the late 1960s, some CBers were simply ignoring the FCC rules. They'd run illegal high power to big antennas, contact distant stations, intentionally interfere with others, etc. They began to adopt "handles" (pseudonyms) and use phony accents to hide their real identities. Many simply didn't bother with licenses at all. Before long, the rules-following CB users were completely outnumbered, and soon disappeared. FCC finally gave up trying to license cb users completely.' What part of that isn't true for the time period mentioned (late 1960s?) N2EY: "CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC." AF6AY: "What something was "meant for" and ACTUAL USE can differ widely. In the first 5 years of 11m CB, the ACTUAL USE was for "personal communications," particularly in urban areas. What was unusual was that the average CB-er of that time was in the thirty-something age group, NOT youth. Contrary to politically-correct ham opinion, there was little REAL policing of CB by the FCC, there was NO widespread "shooting skip" and the "high power" CB amplifiers were extremely rare. That would continue for the next decade when the off-shore radio makers entered the market. Nearly ALL CB users were CASUAL users, except the truckers found that it was an excellent way to break the boredom of driving for hours on end." But cb didn't stay that way, did it? AF6AY: "The only REAL "high power" users were those who bought General Radiotelephone transceivers, made in nearby Burbank, CA." Really? *NOBODY* made "linear amplifiers" for 11 meters? *NOBODY* used them on 11 meters in the 1960s? AF6AY: "What got the Electronic Industries Association (EIA) in a dither was the flood of off-shore designed-and-made 11m CB sets in the 1960s." Is that why, in the mid 1970s, the EIA proposed moving CB to 220-225 MHz? AF6AY: "You don't realize that because you saw so little of it first-hand that nearly every USA radio maker had at least one 11m CB transceiver in their product line in the 1960s." You're wrong, Len. I was there and I saw it. My first personal Allied catalog was 1965 or 1966, and it had lots of cb stuff in it. Collins never made any cb sets. Nor did Drake, btw. AF6AY: "The "lack of popularity" came about simply because the market (largely supported by truckers) SATURATED. Saturation to the point of new sets just replacing old ones." No, that's not true, Len. In the 1970s a lot of folks had cb sets in their cars and homes. The antennas were the giveaway; anyone who knew a little radio knew what to look for. CB antennas on homes or cars are extremely rare these days. AF6AY: "Prompting/lobbying for more channels came about from manufacturing groups wanting to increase their edge in an already-dwindling market. Forty channels with dozens of users for each one in an urban area just isn't enough, even when some set designs used SSB techniques to break through." 80 channels (if SSB is used) is plenty for an urban area *IF* the users follow the rules (low power, short conversations, local stuff only). But that's not how cb worked in the 1970s. The EIA proposal of the 1970s would have moved 11 meter CB to 220 MHz. Had that happened, all 11 meter cbers would have had to replace their radio sets, antennas, and most accessories. Only the coax, power supplies and a few accessories might have been usable. Plus there wouldn't be much "skip" on 220. If the market was dwindling, why did they need more channels? AF6AY: "The EIA and other industry associations were trying to fight the flood of imports in the 1960s and into the 1970s." How would reallocating 220 do that? The Japanese could make Class E cb sets as easily and cheaply as Class D. N2EY: "This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them." AF6AY: "all you've done is to keep alive the old-timer ham hatred and bigotry of CB that started when you were about 5 years old." What have I written about cb history that isn't the plain and simple facts? Do you think CB always was and still is a well-ordered radio service where almost everyone follows FCC regulations? Do you think amateur radio should become more like the cb of the 1970s? AF6AY: "You have NO first-hand experience in that and all you are doing is repeating what you've read on amateur radio forums." Len, I've had receivers capable of listening to 11 meters since about 1966. Also a lot of friends who were involved in cb. I know what happened to that radio service. SO do you but you won't admit it. N2EY: "Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era." AF6AY: "You have a very mixed-up timeline. The CB market saturated a quarter century ago." 1983? Now who has a mixed up timeline? AF6AY: "Cellular telephony installations increased in earnest in the 1990s, can be seen today all along major highways of the USA. The Internet went public in 1991 but took about four years to make enough steam to really roll out." So what? The point is, cb isn't a fad anymore, and its popularity is far less than what it was in the late 1960s and 1970s. Just look at the lack of cb antennas on cars and homes. AF6AY: "Had you ever been OUT on the highways of the USA any time from the 1970s to the present you would have experienced - first hand - that there are FEW who bother driving at ANY posted speed limit." Actually, Len, I've been "out on the highways of the USA" since the 1950s. Compliance with speed limits varies all over the place. But that's not the point. AF6AY: "Truckers have continued to cruise at 70 MPH despite any "ban" on maximum speed at any time. That is said NOT to condone such behavior, simply reporting what is atually done, as observed first-hand, ON the highways." There's a big difference between doing 70 mph when the posted speed is 65, and fuel is plentiful, and doing 70 mph when the posted speed is 55 and fuel is in short supply. Fuel mileage drops dramatically with speed above about 50 MPH because the aerodynamic resistance increases exponentially, not linearly. But one big point is this: the now-repealed Federal 55 mph speed limit was unpopular with a considerable number of people. It bothered some folks enough that they'd use cb to alert each other of law-enforcement activities, to facilitate speeding without getting caught. The main point in all this cb discussion, though, is that while CB *started out* as a well-behaved radio service, it didn't stay that way. By the mid-1970s it was completely out of FCC's control. That's not a good thing, IMHO. And it all happened despite the fact that there was a minimum-age requirement for a CB license. (US ham radio licenses have never had such a requirement). AF6AY: "Try, please TRY to get on the Article SUBJECT" You're the one who brought up cb, Len. I'm simply correcting your mistakes on its history. AF6AY: "The subject is Bringing Youth Into Amateur Radio." So why did you mention cb at all? AF6AY: "What youth have YOU enticed into ham radio?" Well, I wouldn't use the word "enticed". What I have done is to publicize Amateur Radio to people of all ages. Some are interested, most are not, because "radio for its own sake" is something of a niche activity. No problem, the main thing is to make sure people know what ham radio is, not to hard-sell them. I've taught classes in ham radio (theory and Morse Code), helped new hams set up stations, done demonstrations of ham radio (one of the prime reasons for Field Day), and much more, like on-line help to other hams with less experience. It's called "Elmering", Len. AF6AY: "I haven't enticed any youth into amateur radio." That's not surprising, considering the fact that you want to ban anyone under the age of 14 from even having an amateur radio license. Seems to be a personal problem of yours: http://tinyurl.com/2akck9 AF6AY: "I'm acquainted with a sizeable number of non-radio people, including some under 18 years of age. I can understand a bit better what the general group of young people prefer, see it reflected in the marketplace and advertising, with less bias than the average parent can." I think you're much more biased, Len. Plus you've never been a parent, right? AF6AY: "In general those younger people want to do what intrigues them, are not enthused by the same things that enticed a fifty-something ham 40 years ago." Well, Len, if 40-odd years ago I had met a ham with your attitude towards young people, and those who disagree with you, I might have been put off too. -- One thing I have observed about "young people" is that their interests vary all over the place, and broad sweeping statements about what will and won't interest them are invariably wrong. For example, despite all the common technologies of today that did not exist 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, young people still display lots of interest in "old fashioned" things. Like sports (soccer, baseball, and basketball are big around here, for girls and boys), going to movies (even though they have YouTube, DVD players, FiOS, satellites and HDTV), etc. Halloween is big around here; so are the performing arts (band, orchestra, plays, parades). And despite all the new technologies, young people still read books. Real books, printed on paper, with words and no pictures. The way to bring youth into Amateur Radio is to publicize what's unique about Amateur Radio, and help those who are interested get started. 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-11-02 N2EY trotted out his "radio history for dummies" notebook, poison pen, and wrote: "You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that." Not by your personal experience. When 11m CB was created in 1958 you were about 5 years old. You had NO personal experience with the first five years of 11m CB. I did and millions of others did. You are only 'reporting' what you've seen on ham radio forums in the last two decades or so. .......... N2EY: "CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC." What something was "meant for" and ACTUAL USE can differ widely. In the first 5 years of 11m CB, the ACTUAL USE was for "personal communications," particularly in urban areas. What was unusual was that the average CB-er of that time was in the thirty-something age group, NOT youth. Contrary to politically-correct ham opinion, there was little REAL policing of CB by the FCC, there was NO widespread "shooting skip" and the "high power" CB amplifiers were extremely rare. That would continue for the next decade when the off-shore radio makers entered the market. Nearly ALL CB users were CASUAL users, except the truckers found that it was an excellent way to break the boredom of driving for hours on end. The only REAL "high power" users were those who bought General Radiotelephone transceivers, made in nearby Burbank, CA. "General" used a TV horizontal sweep tube for a final and had a built-in jumper to "allow high power operation when the FCC approves of that." The "high power" was about 25 to 30 W peak RF but still with down-modulation. Many who bought a General around here immediately did the jumper change or asked someone to do it for them. I never did that, Jimmie, don't start in with your usual accusatory allusions. General Radiotelephone didn't make it into big-time CB sales and tried to get into business radio. They moved from their second-floor Hq and assembly area on Burbank Boulevard some time in the late 1960s and might still be around somewhere in L.A. What is interesting is that General liked to brag about their partly-completed tower (for the future) but never completed it. That initial construction is still standing on the roof of their original business building. A post-production sound editing firm occupies the second floor now. While assembly was 100% done by workers on-site (all point-to-point hand wiring), components were the cheapest available. Esthetically, the exterior designs must have been conceived by color-blind elders without a trace of artistic sense. What got the Electronic Industries Association (EIA) in a dither was the flood of off-shore designed-and-made 11m CB sets in the 1960s. You don't realize that because you saw so little of it first-hand that nearly every USA radio maker had at least one 11m CB transceiver in their product line in the 1960s. All of those are long GONE and everything of what is left is made off-shore now. The "lack of popularity" came about simply because the market (largely supported by truckers) SATURATED. Saturation to the point of new sets just replacing old ones. Prompting/lobbying for more channels came about from manufacturing groups wanting to increase their edge in an already-dwindling market. Forty channels with dozens of users for each one in an urban area just isn't enough, even when some set designs used SSB techniques to break through. The EIA and other industry associations were trying to fight the flood of imports in the 1960s and into the 1970s. Some manufacturers bowed to the inevitable. An example is RCA Corporation announcing that all of their black-and-white TV models would be made off-shore from about 1973 and after (year approximate based on memories of then while working for RCA EASD in Van Nuys, CA; RCA TV division was in Indianapolis, IN). Today I think that ALL new TV receivers on the consumer market in the USA are made off-shore. ............... N2EY: "This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them." Sonny, all you've done is to keep alive the old-timer ham hatred and bigotry of CB that started when you were about 5 years old. You have NO first-hand experience in that and all you are doing is repeating what you've read on amateur radio forums. For example: N2EY: "Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era." You have a very mixed-up timeline. The CB market saturated a quarter century ago. Cellular telephony installations increased in earnest in the 1990s, can be seen today all along major highways of the USA. The Internet went public in 1991 but took about four years to make enough steam to really roll out. Had you ever been OUT on the highways of the USA any time from the 1970s to the present you would have experienced - first hand - that there are FEW who bother driving at ANY posted speed limit. Truckers have continued to cruise at 70 MPH despite any "ban" on maximum speed at any time. That is said NOT to condone such behavior, simply reporting what is atually done, as observed first-hand, ON the highways. Following your pattern of messaging, you will now come back with a LECTURE on driving, safe speeds, etc. Give up the lecturing, Jimmie. ............ N2EY: "You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it?" Wrong again. Not past tense. My E.F.Johnson Viking Messenger (bought at Henry Radio in Los Angeles in early 1958) is gathering dust on a shelf in the workshop. So is a Bendix Marine Division tube type made OEM by some other firm (half-price sale by a Bendix rep friend). They might still work. Old designs, needed crystal control on each channel, both Rx and Tx. Vibrator HV supply in both, NOT reliable, never were for mobile radios. Nobody wants such things now. Based on contemporary CB transceivers of the time, BOTH are average size, not "miniaturized." I am not "miniaturized" either and still operational. Any more cracks? ........... Try, please TRY to get on the Article SUBJECT, Jimmie. The subject is Bringing Youth Into Amateur Radio. What youth have YOU enticed into ham radio? Did they actually enter after you LECTURED them using mixed-up timeline "history" cribs? I haven't enticed any youth into amateur radio. I've enticed two younger people to enter the electronics industry and both did, are still working in it. But, as you keep reminding everyone, I am a "newcomer" to amateur radio and therefore can't possibly know anything. <shrug> I'm acquainted with a sizeable number of non-radio people, including some under 18 years of age. I can understand a bit better what the general group of young people prefer, see it reflected in the marketplace and advertising, with less bias than the average parent can. In general those younger people want to do what intrigues them, are not enthused by the same things that enticed a fifty-something ham 40 years ago. Yet, fifty-something (and older) marketing people CAN get them enthused. There's a lesson to be learned in that, subliminal perhaps, but what Don Keith, N4KC, alluded to in his message. Don IS in marketing. One HAS to see into young people's minds, not force them in with what YOU think they should know. Certainly NOT with what was written by the ARRL a half century ago. Len, AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' ... Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably." You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that. CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC. And for the first few years, 11 meter CB wasn't too bad. CB users followed the rules and enjoyed their radios. After all, the FCC had set up the rules and would enforce them - right? But by the late 1960s, some CBers were simply ignoring the FCC rules. They'd run illegal high power to big antennas, contact distant stations, intentionally interfere with others, etc. They began to adopt "handles" (pseudonyms) and use phony accents to hide their real identities. Many simply didn't bother with licenses at all. Before long, the rules-following CB users were completely outnumbered, and soon disappeared. FCC finally gave up trying to license cb users completely. The oil crises of the 1970s, and the resulting 55 mph speed limit, were a major promotion for cb in the 1970s. CB became a way for truckers and others to avoid law enforcement officers and the speed limit, to the point that movies were made glorifying this aspect of CB. What really bothered many hams was the fact that these antics were not confined to the 23 channels of 11 meters. The use of illegal and often poorly-designed-and-operated high power amplifiers by cb users resulted in TV interference and other RFI problems. These problems were often blamed on hams with perfectly clean and legal transmitters, because the hams were easily located, identified themselves on the air and were known to FCC. To add to the mess, some CB users modified their radios to operate outside the legal CB channels, invading the allocations of other radio services near 27 MHz, including the 10 meter ham band. This sort of activity, called "HFing" or "freebanding", became so prevalent that in 1978 FCC passed regulations against the sale of various forms of RF power amplifiers. These regulations had little effect on the illegals, though. In the 1970s, the EIA (a manufacturer's group) petitioned FCC to reallocate the 220 MHz ham band to a new "Class E" CB service, using FM on many more channels. Both 11 meter CB users and hams opposed this, for obvious reasons. (The hams didn't want to lose another band while the CB users didn't want to have to replace practically their entire setups, and give up much of the long-distance capabilities of 11 meters). This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them. Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era. The ironic thing is that, when CB had licenses, there was a minimum-age requirement for the license. 15 years of age, IIRC. You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-10-31 AB7E posted on October 30, 2008: "If 30 years ago you had the choice between a hobby that mostly just allowed you to talk into a mic (or tap out CW) when the band was open (and only to those who had licenses) and required you to have a bunch of different unique hardware (including outdoor antennas that upset the neighbors), versus being able to speak with all of your friends anytime with a cellphone smaller than your wallet or play interactive games online with stunning graphics (on a piece of hardware you already have and complete with free group voice chat) anytime with anyone anywhere in the world ... which would you have chosen?? I sincerely doubt it would have been ham radio." In all honesty I have to agree with that. Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' Before that end-of-the-1950s period the 'radio' interest had been with 'Hi-Fi' and the excellence of recordings on long-play vinyl grooved discs, then stereo tape, and finally, the beginning of widespread stereo FM broadcasting. ............. AB7E: "And of course this has nothing to do with the "laziness" or "immediate gratification" grumpy old men (ham radio is full of them) like to attribute to youngsters. Check out how many retired folks of both sexes are active participants in World of Warcraft or Second Life ... they dwarf late-in-life recruits to ham radio by orders of magnitude." I don't doubt it. Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably. In the next semi-niche hobby, personal computers, the BBS was born in the late 1970s and brought together a way-wider group of social interacters. BBSers who interacted in-person as well as on the phone lines with computer-modems were more homogenous representatives of the population. Few were radio-active but all were eager to try out this brand new medium of communications. In urban areas this kept on expanding until the Internet went public in 1991 and provided the first widespread international communications participation by computer-modem. In the 1980s the computer hobbyist community was rivaling amateur radio numbers, having more special-interest independent computer hobbyist magazines than were published in the USA at the time. By 1990 the cell phone was becoming smaller and less expensive and growing all over the country. In a decade it would become so small and so numerous that one in ten Americans were cell phone subscribers. By 2004 one in three Americans had cell phone subscriptions; teen-agers were able to use them to interact with other teeners and the 'texting' craze had begun. Why not? The price was far lower than portable ham gear, could be carried in a shirt pocket or small purse and used much without racking up a sizeable phone bill. ............ AB7E: "I would gladly try to mentor anyone who showed a budding interest in ham radio, but I don't see the point in trying to be an evangelist for the hobby." I would rather evangelize the electronics industry to younger people. It is far bigger than amateurism in radio and has FAR greater scope and variation on what it can do. It can also provide a very decent wage and be a fun job at the same time. Amateur radio is a niche hobby and the old-timers have managed to both stratify it and mummify it in old standards and practices suitable for long-past times. For younger people, the rationale that a ham license lets you "advance the state of the radio art and talk to foreign folk for 'free' on one's own station" is trite and dated. It might have worked in the 1960s but this is four decades (and two generations) later. For one thing it is definitely NOT 'free' since a decent station for HF is going to cost more than a complete PC set-up. For another, HF is NOT that reliable 24/7 and the average lower-power HF ham bands are at the mercy of the ionosphere. The only 'advancing the art' in HF radio is inside the radios and that technology has almost saturated. .............. AB7E: "Like NN4RH says, kids aren't idiots (or lazy when it comes to interesting things), and if they have any interest in what ham radio has to offer they will find it." Absolutely true. Based on my 'beginner, newbie' life experience over the last 76 years, EVERY old-generation curmudgeon gets all disgusted about the do-nothing younger generation. They just won't recognize that that THEY were once considered 'do-nothing' young wastrels by generation-older curmudgeons of their day. :-) I've read of the same attitudes prevalent in most societies over previous centuries...Pompeii curmudgeons were probably cussing THEIR do-nothing young folks just before Vesuvious blew its top and buried everyone. :-) .............. AB7E: "Most of this talk about enticing young folks into the hobby (and it is just a hobby ... it isn't the path to heaven) simply sounds to me like people in a niche activity looking for validation. Why else would you consider it to be important?" Much of the TALK is simply rationalization. On the other hand, if license numbers start to drop again and newcomers don't replace the usual human-attrition expirations, that WILL be noticed by commercial groups that might want to use ham bands for other purposes. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : AB7E on 2008-10-31 KE7UXE: "Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal." How do you figure? That isn't even remotely true. Not only is global internet voice chat full duplex, FM quality, real time, and free ... people can use it while collaborating in an online game, or while working together on a drawing or file, or while streaming music to each other. None of that is new, either ... it's been available for years from multiple sources. This is exactly what I mean. Hams lament that kids today are too lazy and disconnected with technology to discover ham radio, and the reality is that hams are too disconnected to understand the kinds of alternatives for kids that make ham radio merely a legacy curiosity for them. Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 "ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board." No it isn't...it is giving them friends to text who happen to be in Estonia, Spain and Japan. Sadly, for many the alure of ham radio is the gear. IMO it ought to be the opportunity to talk with a wide variety of people from all over the world. Ham radio is a social activity. That is what kids might like. If later they get interested in the equipment, so be it. Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal. Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| KB6QXM | 2008-11-03 | |
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| RE: C.W. MCALL | ||
| What's a Plankeye, anyways??? CB handle? Some name because you are not licensed? At least when I make statements based on my opinion, I have my call attached for all to see. They know who I am. They may not agree with my opinions or stances, but at least I am an Advanced class licensed ham. If you are licensed, then by all means show your call! 73 Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-03 You guys is off topic again. It's just like the last article. Bickering! You all remind me of a hair Salon full of women. The topic is Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio! Dudes? All you guys do is seem to want to Argue! Maybe I'm wrong, if I am. PROVE IT! plankeye Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| PLANKEYE | 2008-11-03 | |
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| C.W. MCALL | ||
| You guys is off topic again. It's just like the last article. Bickering! You all remind me of a hair Salon full of women. The topic is Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio! Dudes? All you guys do is seem to want to Argue! Maybe I'm wrong, if I am. PROVE IT! plankeye Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| NK2U | 2008-11-03 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| "I was one of those kids NV2A was referring to in 1964. I was drawn to amateur radio because I thought the ability to communicate with people all over the world without wires was magic. I still do." Kids don't, they think that ham radio is passe and that cell phones and Ipods rule. You can't compete with that. Here's something better: get the people who are already licensed that are not on the air to get back on the air, they've already got the license! de NK2U Reply to a comment by : N1OU on 2008-10-30 NV2A (the first comment posted) made an often-forgotten point: This issue is nothing new. It is, however quite valid. I admire the League's and many club's efforts to recruit and reward young hams. We see the results frequently. There's one more thing, though. Nothing beats one-on-one. Odds are that if you expose twenty youngsters to ham radio, at least one will have some curiosity about it and may ultimately "join in". The same could be said for other hobbies like mountain biking, barbeque cooking, sewing, woodworking, stamp collecting, and yes, video gaming. The world is a diverse place. Kids need broad exposure, then they need the freedom to find their own "thing" in their career and hobby endeavors. I was one of those kids NV2A was referring to in 1964. I was drawn to amateur radio because I thought the ability to communicate with people all over the world without wires was magic. I still do. 73 Gordon, N1OU | ||
| NK2U | 2008-11-03 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| "We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest." Oh, you mean those hams that don't constantly belittle new hams because they haven't passed a CW exam? That they have not passed their tests in front of the FCC commision? That the test they took was way to easy and "given away?" I hope there are enough hams out there that will embrace new hams and not constantly put them down for not having achieved what the OFs wanted... de NK2U Reply to a comment by : NN4RH on 2008-10-30 I think it's a mistake to think in terms that we can "bring" youth (I assume you mean teenagers) into ham radio. It's impractical to think that all we have to do is pick a teenager at random and show him/her our shack and say you want to "Elmer" him, and that they'll suddenly be so impressed that they want to be a ham. And it has nothing to do with the age of the equipment or the operating modes. Youth are not sheep. They will find and develop their own interests. | ||
| WW2JS | 2008-11-03 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Well I have decent news, one of my kids help me look up callsigns on QRZ this Saturday. After 20 mins. she asked if we could get our bikes out and go for a ride. She won. Getting a kid into ham radio is good exercise for the brain, keeps them occupied and focused on the task at hand. Then on the other side of the coin having them doing some type of physical activity which gets the heart rate up for a while benefits them both both physically and mentally. It's delicate balance, kids today spend way too much time front of the computer or TV. In the last 2 decades the type 2 diabetes rate among children and adolescents has been alarming and this is due to the obesity epidemic and the low levels of physical activity.Putting a kid front of a rig a few more hours a week could could lower that inactivity even more. As parents we have to monitor our children very closely and have them choose their activities wisely. Reply to a comment by : AB7E on 2008-11-03 KE7UXE: "In the US there are 30,000 hams under 18. <snip> The pure fact is that I see very few people getting off of their duffs and looking to share the hobby with kids. Why don't we try asking a few of them." Have at it. According to http://www.censusscope.org/us/chart_age.html there are 40,000,000 people in the U.S. between the ages of 10 and 19. On average, you're going to have to make your pitch to over 1,300 kids to get one to bite, most of which will use VHF/UHF (nothing wrong with that, of course) for a while and then become inactive as adults. 73, Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-11-02 "AB7E prove me wrong and try to identify some function (communication, competition, intellectual discovery, social interaction, etc) that ham radio does better than computers, internet, or cell phones." Wrong question. First of all Amateur radio offers a different experience. Ask yourself this. Why do I like it? I have a computer and a cell phone. There is a mystery to sending a CQ and waiting for an answer. I can't get on a computer and go looking for someone wanting to talk to me except in a very limited context. Computers are very impersonal. It is extremely rare to cary on a conversation with a total stranger on the computer. I have spent years interacting with young people. It was my job to get to know them. They are all looking for a challenge. There are plenty of them who would like AR. "In 1988 there were 1,744,000 amateur stations worldwide; in 2000, the number had grown to 2,789,720, according to the International Radio Amateur Union." In the US there are 30,000 hams under 18. If youth are not entering this hobby fast enough here they sure are in other coutries. The pure fact is that I see very few people getting off of their duffs and looking to share the hobby with kids. Why don't we try asking a few of them. Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-11-02 N3OX replied on November 2, 2008: "The only thing that comes close is WiFi DXing, and that doesn't carry the promise of worldwide communication. I'll say it again. E-mailing Hong Kong? Boring. Working Hong Kong on 1.8MHz CW? Thrilling!" To YOU, no doubt. But, too many hams think that what THEY like is what everyone else will like. Doesn't work that way. Everyone is attracted to something but not to what a ham does, even if the ham thinks the world of his hobby. ............ "Don't totally discount the appeal of ham radio because we have other communications methods available." Good grief, there is a whole load of OTHER communications methods today. HF ham radio hasn't changed much at all (other than the hardware) in a half century. Do you think high-schoolers would be interested in listening to 33 1/3 RPM disc records for music (any kind)? I doubt it. An IPod can store just about every LP album I have at the low-end 8 GB storage model (I won one in an online survey, cost me nothing). CDs can be played back through a computer, then loaded into the mobile pod. Videos can be seen on cable TV, usually for free as part of the service. For all the old-timer ham snarking about "texting," you have to understand that its THEIR thing and they can, for a while, get rid of the bossy grown-ups who can (usually) get them riled up when interrupting discussing things in private with their friends. Three years ago the Census Bureau reported that one in three Americans had a cell phone subscription. A hundred million cell phone users is far greater than five million or so CBs on the roads, and that is more than all the US hams put together. ............ N3OX: "Ham radio allows me to contact the other guy with no middleman, sometimes in surprising ways. It's the only game in town for that. That doesn't necessarily appeal to a normal high schooler, but it never did ;-)" I don't think one has to be an "abnormal" teenager to get appeal for old-time hobbies. Understand that teeners are looking for PEER ACCEPTANCE, "normal" or "weird." Such acceptance is an individual struggle and most begin that very anxiety-prone time only through self-experience. They want to communicate first to their peers. To work at getting any teener interested means you have to understand how the teener feels first, then you can work on your sales pitch. ........... N3OX: "But that doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to some younger people. Just don't tune the radio to 75m phone when you have the boy scouts over to your shack. Tune across some weak, fluttery UA0's fading in and out of the noise on 20m CW and explain how you're listening to Siberia with no intervening wires. You'll occasionally hook someone that way." Poor choice. No matter how much YOU think that "working weak signals" with CW is wonderful, most folks, young, old, or in-between, don't "take" to CW immediately. They usually don't "read" it and it it isn't understandable to "civilians." When you go into that thousand-yard stare trying to copy that weak signal, observers think you go into some kind of trance, losing touch will all those around you. Maybe, just maybe, the NOVELTY will keep them looking and listening. To teeners, almost everything in life is new and most (if not all) are busy absorbing all kinds of things, not just the kindly old guy with Siberian signals coming and going. DO NOT mistake ordinary, momentary curiosity as "instantly being attracted to CW" or anything else about amateur radio operating. You have to be understanding and respectful enough to forge a link between what you are doing and them. On top of that you have to have enough sensitivity in judging them and their responses to see if you've really reached into their minds deeper than just lecturing. It's a little bit like story-telling where you must keep them attentive to what you are saying. But, showing directly and in enough ways that they can comprehend, you can give them a feeling into a real world. Strangers to amateur radio might be better shown by tuning through SW BC bands, particularly on the hour and half hour when many stations give their ID in several languages. Canadian BC stations give their ID in both English and French and "Ici raddio Cana-da" is almost as easy to recognize as the English "This is Radio Canada." On a more local scene, an arranged link up on VHF or UHF can have the mobile ops describe where they are and what they are doing and can be heard by all on voice. With their cooperation, the VHF or UHF operators could talk with visitors who only need instruction in the PTT, to press when talking, release to listen. Simple stuff that they can do and get an enormous boost from hands-on participation. THEY got ON the radio, themselves, not just listening to some stranger they stood behind. Minor acts like brief third-party operating can have an affect on how they perceive this ham radio stuff. For a good final act to a demo is having one mobile ham show up right after. Those in on the demo can recognize the op's voice and get a stronger impression...there he/she is in-person! :-) 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N3OX on 2008-11-02 "Prove me wrong and try to identify some function (communication, competition, intellectual discovery, social interaction, etc) that ham radio does better than computers, internet, or cell phones." Physical-layer-level, infrastructure free wireless experimentation. The only thing that comes close is WiFi DXing, and that doesn't carry the promise of worldwide communication. I'll say it again. E-mailing Hong Kong? Boring. Working Hong Kong on 1.8MHz CW? Thrilling! Don't totally discount the appeal of ham radio because we have other communications methods available. Ham radio allows me to contact the other guy with no middleman, sometimes in surprising ways. It's the only game in town for that. That doesn't necessarily appeal to a normal high schooler, but it never did ;-) But that doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to some younger people. Just don't tune the radio to 75m phone when you have the boy scouts over to your shack. Tune across some weak, fluttery UA0's fading in and out of the noise on 20m CW and explain how you're listening to Siberia with no intervening wires. You'll occasionally hook someone that way. I stayed up late winter nights ten years ago as an 18 year old ham, logged into the #CQDX IRC chat while tuning around 40m CW. Trust me, the ZL's I ran into on the air were a totally different thing than the ZL's I ran into on the internet, and there's a small segment of any young population who will understand that. Look for the weird kids, demonstrate some DX CW to them, they'll be interested. The average, popular high school kid has to get through college probably before they'll let their inner weird kid come out. You have to wait a little longer for them. 73 Dan Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-11-02 N2EY trotted out his "radio history for dummies" notebook, poison pen, and wrote: "You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that." Not by your personal experience. When 11m CB was created in 1958 you were about 5 years old. You had NO personal experience with the first five years of 11m CB. I did and millions of others did. You are only 'reporting' what you've seen on ham radio forums in the last two decades or so. .......... N2EY: "CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC." What something was "meant for" and ACTUAL USE can differ widely. In the first 5 years of 11m CB, the ACTUAL USE was for "personal communications," particularly in urban areas. What was unusual was that the average CB-er of that time was in the thirty-something age group, NOT youth. Contrary to politically-correct ham opinion, there was little REAL policing of CB by the FCC, there was NO widespread "shooting skip" and the "high power" CB amplifiers were extremely rare. That would continue for the next decade when the off-shore radio makers entered the market. Nearly ALL CB users were CASUAL users, except the truckers found that it was an excellent way to break the boredom of driving for hours on end. The only REAL "high power" users were those who bought General Radiotelephone transceivers, made in nearby Burbank, CA. "General" used a TV horizontal sweep tube for a final and had a built-in jumper to "allow high power operation when the FCC approves of that." The "high power" was about 25 to 30 W peak RF but still with down-modulation. Many who bought a General around here immediately did the jumper change or asked someone to do it for them. I never did that, Jimmie, don't start in with your usual accusatory allusions. General Radiotelephone didn't make it into big-time CB sales and tried to get into business radio. They moved from their second-floor Hq and assembly area on Burbank Boulevard some time in the late 1960s and might still be around somewhere in L.A. What is interesting is that General liked to brag about their partly-completed tower (for the future) but never completed it. That initial construction is still standing on the roof of their original business building. A post-production sound editing firm occupies the second floor now. While assembly was 100% done by workers on-site (all point-to-point hand wiring), components were the cheapest available. Esthetically, the exterior designs must have been conceived by color-blind elders without a trace of artistic sense. What got the Electronic Industries Association (EIA) in a dither was the flood of off-shore designed-and-made 11m CB sets in the 1960s. You don't realize that because you saw so little of it first-hand that nearly every USA radio maker had at least one 11m CB transceiver in their product line in the 1960s. All of those are long GONE and everything of what is left is made off-shore now. The "lack of popularity" came about simply because the market (largely supported by truckers) SATURATED. Saturation to the point of new sets just replacing old ones. Prompting/lobbying for more channels came about from manufacturing groups wanting to increase their edge in an already-dwindling market. Forty channels with dozens of users for each one in an urban area just isn't enough, even when some set designs used SSB techniques to break through. The EIA and other industry associations were trying to fight the flood of imports in the 1960s and into the 1970s. Some manufacturers bowed to the inevitable. An example is RCA Corporation announcing that all of their black-and-white TV models would be made off-shore from about 1973 and after (year approximate based on memories of then while working for RCA EASD in Van Nuys, CA; RCA TV division was in Indianapolis, IN). Today I think that ALL new TV receivers on the consumer market in the USA are made off-shore. ............... N2EY: "This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them." Sonny, all you've done is to keep alive the old-timer ham hatred and bigotry of CB that started when you were about 5 years old. You have NO first-hand experience in that and all you are doing is repeating what you've read on amateur radio forums. For example: N2EY: "Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era." You have a very mixed-up timeline. The CB market saturated a quarter century ago. Cellular telephony installations increased in earnest in the 1990s, can be seen today all along major highways of the USA. The Internet went public in 1991 but took about four years to make enough steam to really roll out. Had you ever been OUT on the highways of the USA any time from the 1970s to the present you would have experienced - first hand - that there are FEW who bother driving at ANY posted speed limit. Truckers have continued to cruise at 70 MPH despite any "ban" on maximum speed at any time. That is said NOT to condone such behavior, simply reporting what is atually done, as observed first-hand, ON the highways. Following your pattern of messaging, you will now come back with a LECTURE on driving, safe speeds, etc. Give up the lecturing, Jimmie. ............ N2EY: "You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it?" Wrong again. Not past tense. My E.F.Johnson Viking Messenger (bought at Henry Radio in Los Angeles in early 1958) is gathering dust on a shelf in the workshop. So is a Bendix Marine Division tube type made OEM by some other firm (half-price sale by a Bendix rep friend). They might still work. Old designs, needed crystal control on each channel, both Rx and Tx. Vibrator HV supply in both, NOT reliable, never were for mobile radios. Nobody wants such things now. Based on contemporary CB transceivers of the time, BOTH are average size, not "miniaturized." I am not "miniaturized" either and still operational. Any more cracks? ........... Try, please TRY to get on the Article SUBJECT, Jimmie. The subject is Bringing Youth Into Amateur Radio. What youth have YOU enticed into ham radio? Did they actually enter after you LECTURED them using mixed-up timeline "history" cribs? I haven't enticed any youth into amateur radio. I've enticed two younger people to enter the electronics industry and both did, are still working in it. But, as you keep reminding everyone, I am a "newcomer" to amateur radio and therefore can't possibly know anything. <shrug> I'm acquainted with a sizeable number of non-radio people, including some under 18 years of age. I can understand a bit better what the general group of young people prefer, see it reflected in the marketplace and advertising, with less bias than the average parent can. In general those younger people want to do what intrigues them, are not enthused by the same things that enticed a fifty-something ham 40 years ago. Yet, fifty-something (and older) marketing people CAN get them enthused. There's a lesson to be learned in that, subliminal perhaps, but what Don Keith, N4KC, alluded to in his message. Don IS in marketing. One HAS to see into young people's minds, not force them in with what YOU think they should know. Certainly NOT with what was written by the ARRL a half century ago. Len, AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' ... Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably." You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that. CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC. And for the first few years, 11 meter CB wasn't too bad. CB users followed the rules and enjoyed their radios. After all, the FCC had set up the rules and would enforce them - right? But by the late 1960s, some CBers were simply ignoring the FCC rules. They'd run illegal high power to big antennas, contact distant stations, intentionally interfere with others, etc. They began to adopt "handles" (pseudonyms) and use phony accents to hide their real identities. Many simply didn't bother with licenses at all. Before long, the rules-following CB users were completely outnumbered, and soon disappeared. FCC finally gave up trying to license cb users completely. The oil crises of the 1970s, and the resulting 55 mph speed limit, were a major promotion for cb in the 1970s. CB became a way for truckers and others to avoid law enforcement officers and the speed limit, to the point that movies were made glorifying this aspect of CB. What really bothered many hams was the fact that these antics were not confined to the 23 channels of 11 meters. The use of illegal and often poorly-designed-and-operated high power amplifiers by cb users resulted in TV interference and other RFI problems. These problems were often blamed on hams with perfectly clean and legal transmitters, because the hams were easily located, identified themselves on the air and were known to FCC. To add to the mess, some CB users modified their radios to operate outside the legal CB channels, invading the allocations of other radio services near 27 MHz, including the 10 meter ham band. This sort of activity, called "HFing" or "freebanding", became so prevalent that in 1978 FCC passed regulations against the sale of various forms of RF power amplifiers. These regulations had little effect on the illegals, though. In the 1970s, the EIA (a manufacturer's group) petitioned FCC to reallocate the 220 MHz ham band to a new "Class E" CB service, using FM on many more channels. Both 11 meter CB users and hams opposed this, for obvious reasons. (The hams didn't want to lose another band while the CB users didn't want to have to replace practically their entire setups, and give up much of the long-distance capabilities of 11 meters). This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them. Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era. The ironic thing is that, when CB had licenses, there was a minimum-age requirement for the license. 15 years of age, IIRC. You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-10-31 AB7E posted on October 30, 2008: "If 30 years ago you had the choice between a hobby that mostly just allowed you to talk into a mic (or tap out CW) when the band was open (and only to those who had licenses) and required you to have a bunch of different unique hardware (including outdoor antennas that upset the neighbors), versus being able to speak with all of your friends anytime with a cellphone smaller than your wallet or play interactive games online with stunning graphics (on a piece of hardware you already have and complete with free group voice chat) anytime with anyone anywhere in the world ... which would you have chosen?? I sincerely doubt it would have been ham radio." In all honesty I have to agree with that. Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' Before that end-of-the-1950s period the 'radio' interest had been with 'Hi-Fi' and the excellence of recordings on long-play vinyl grooved discs, then stereo tape, and finally, the beginning of widespread stereo FM broadcasting. ............. AB7E: "And of course this has nothing to do with the "laziness" or "immediate gratification" grumpy old men (ham radio is full of them) like to attribute to youngsters. Check out how many retired folks of both sexes are active participants in World of Warcraft or Second Life ... they dwarf late-in-life recruits to ham radio by orders of magnitude." I don't doubt it. Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably. In the next semi-niche hobby, personal computers, the BBS was born in the late 1970s and brought together a way-wider group of social interacters. BBSers who interacted in-person as well as on the phone lines with computer-modems were more homogenous representatives of the population. Few were radio-active but all were eager to try out this brand new medium of communications. In urban areas this kept on expanding until the Internet went public in 1991 and provided the first widespread international communications participation by computer-modem. In the 1980s the computer hobbyist community was rivaling amateur radio numbers, having more special-interest independent computer hobbyist magazines than were published in the USA at the time. By 1990 the cell phone was becoming smaller and less expensive and growing all over the country. In a decade it would become so small and so numerous that one in ten Americans were cell phone subscribers. By 2004 one in three Americans had cell phone subscriptions; teen-agers were able to use them to interact with other teeners and the 'texting' craze had begun. Why not? The price was far lower than portable ham gear, could be carried in a shirt pocket or small purse and used much without racking up a sizeable phone bill. ............ AB7E: "I would gladly try to mentor anyone who showed a budding interest in ham radio, but I don't see the point in trying to be an evangelist for the hobby." I would rather evangelize the electronics industry to younger people. It is far bigger than amateurism in radio and has FAR greater scope and variation on what it can do. It can also provide a very decent wage and be a fun job at the same time. Amateur radio is a niche hobby and the old-timers have managed to both stratify it and mummify it in old standards and practices suitable for long-past times. For younger people, the rationale that a ham license lets you "advance the state of the radio art and talk to foreign folk for 'free' on one's own station" is trite and dated. It might have worked in the 1960s but this is four decades (and two generations) later. For one thing it is definitely NOT 'free' since a decent station for HF is going to cost more than a complete PC set-up. For another, HF is NOT that reliable 24/7 and the average lower-power HF ham bands are at the mercy of the ionosphere. The only 'advancing the art' in HF radio is inside the radios and that technology has almost saturated. .............. AB7E: "Like NN4RH says, kids aren't idiots (or lazy when it comes to interesting things), and if they have any interest in what ham radio has to offer they will find it." Absolutely true. Based on my 'beginner, newbie' life experience over the last 76 years, EVERY old-generation curmudgeon gets all disgusted about the do-nothing younger generation. They just won't recognize that that THEY were once considered 'do-nothing' young wastrels by generation-older curmudgeons of their day. :-) I've read of the same attitudes prevalent in most societies over previous centuries...Pompeii curmudgeons were probably cussing THEIR do-nothing young folks just before Vesuvious blew its top and buried everyone. :-) .............. AB7E: "Most of this talk about enticing young folks into the hobby (and it is just a hobby ... it isn't the path to heaven) simply sounds to me like people in a niche activity looking for validation. Why else would you consider it to be important?" Much of the TALK is simply rationalization. On the other hand, if license numbers start to drop again and newcomers don't replace the usual human-attrition expirations, that WILL be noticed by commercial groups that might want to use ham bands for other purposes. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : AB7E on 2008-10-31 KE7UXE: "Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal." How do you figure? That isn't even remotely true. Not only is global internet voice chat full duplex, FM quality, real time, and free ... people can use it while collaborating in an online game, or while working together on a drawing or file, or while streaming music to each other. None of that is new, either ... it's been available for years from multiple sources. This is exactly what I mean. Hams lament that kids today are too lazy and disconnected with technology to discover ham radio, and the reality is that hams are too disconnected to understand the kinds of alternatives for kids that make ham radio merely a legacy curiosity for them. Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 "ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board." No it isn't...it is giving them friends to text who happen to be in Estonia, Spain and Japan. Sadly, for many the alure of ham radio is the gear. IMO it ought to be the opportunity to talk with a wide variety of people from all over the world. Ham radio is a social activity. That is what kids might like. If later they get interested in the equipment, so be it. Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal. Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| AB7E | 2008-11-03 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| KE7UXE: "In the US there are 30,000 hams under 18. <snip> The pure fact is that I see very few people getting off of their duffs and looking to share the hobby with kids. Why don't we try asking a few of them." Have at it. According to http://www.censusscope.org/us/chart_age.html there are 40,000,000 people in the U.S. between the ages of 10 and 19. On average, you're going to have to make your pitch to over 1,300 kids to get one to bite, most of which will use VHF/UHF (nothing wrong with that, of course) for a while and then become inactive as adults. 73, Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-11-02 "AB7E prove me wrong and try to identify some function (communication, competition, intellectual discovery, social interaction, etc) that ham radio does better than computers, internet, or cell phones." Wrong question. First of all Amateur radio offers a different experience. Ask yourself this. Why do I like it? I have a computer and a cell phone. There is a mystery to sending a CQ and waiting for an answer. I can't get on a computer and go looking for someone wanting to talk to me except in a very limited context. Computers are very impersonal. It is extremely rare to cary on a conversation with a total stranger on the computer. I have spent years interacting with young people. It was my job to get to know them. They are all looking for a challenge. There are plenty of them who would like AR. "In 1988 there were 1,744,000 amateur stations worldwide; in 2000, the number had grown to 2,789,720, according to the International Radio Amateur Union." In the US there are 30,000 hams under 18. If youth are not entering this hobby fast enough here they sure are in other coutries. The pure fact is that I see very few people getting off of their duffs and looking to share the hobby with kids. Why don't we try asking a few of them. Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-11-02 N3OX replied on November 2, 2008: "The only thing that comes close is WiFi DXing, and that doesn't carry the promise of worldwide communication. I'll say it again. E-mailing Hong Kong? Boring. Working Hong Kong on 1.8MHz CW? Thrilling!" To YOU, no doubt. But, too many hams think that what THEY like is what everyone else will like. Doesn't work that way. Everyone is attracted to something but not to what a ham does, even if the ham thinks the world of his hobby. ............ "Don't totally discount the appeal of ham radio because we have other communications methods available." Good grief, there is a whole load of OTHER communications methods today. HF ham radio hasn't changed much at all (other than the hardware) in a half century. Do you think high-schoolers would be interested in listening to 33 1/3 RPM disc records for music (any kind)? I doubt it. An IPod can store just about every LP album I have at the low-end 8 GB storage model (I won one in an online survey, cost me nothing). CDs can be played back through a computer, then loaded into the mobile pod. Videos can be seen on cable TV, usually for free as part of the service. For all the old-timer ham snarking about "texting," you have to understand that its THEIR thing and they can, for a while, get rid of the bossy grown-ups who can (usually) get them riled up when interrupting discussing things in private with their friends. Three years ago the Census Bureau reported that one in three Americans had a cell phone subscription. A hundred million cell phone users is far greater than five million or so CBs on the roads, and that is more than all the US hams put together. ............ N3OX: "Ham radio allows me to contact the other guy with no middleman, sometimes in surprising ways. It's the only game in town for that. That doesn't necessarily appeal to a normal high schooler, but it never did ;-)" I don't think one has to be an "abnormal" teenager to get appeal for old-time hobbies. Understand that teeners are looking for PEER ACCEPTANCE, "normal" or "weird." Such acceptance is an individual struggle and most begin that very anxiety-prone time only through self-experience. They want to communicate first to their peers. To work at getting any teener interested means you have to understand how the teener feels first, then you can work on your sales pitch. ........... N3OX: "But that doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to some younger people. Just don't tune the radio to 75m phone when you have the boy scouts over to your shack. Tune across some weak, fluttery UA0's fading in and out of the noise on 20m CW and explain how you're listening to Siberia with no intervening wires. You'll occasionally hook someone that way." Poor choice. No matter how much YOU think that "working weak signals" with CW is wonderful, most folks, young, old, or in-between, don't "take" to CW immediately. They usually don't "read" it and it it isn't understandable to "civilians." When you go into that thousand-yard stare trying to copy that weak signal, observers think you go into some kind of trance, losing touch will all those around you. Maybe, just maybe, the NOVELTY will keep them looking and listening. To teeners, almost everything in life is new and most (if not all) are busy absorbing all kinds of things, not just the kindly old guy with Siberian signals coming and going. DO NOT mistake ordinary, momentary curiosity as "instantly being attracted to CW" or anything else about amateur radio operating. You have to be understanding and respectful enough to forge a link between what you are doing and them. On top of that you have to have enough sensitivity in judging them and their responses to see if you've really reached into their minds deeper than just lecturing. It's a little bit like story-telling where you must keep them attentive to what you are saying. But, showing directly and in enough ways that they can comprehend, you can give them a feeling into a real world. Strangers to amateur radio might be better shown by tuning through SW BC bands, particularly on the hour and half hour when many stations give their ID in several languages. Canadian BC stations give their ID in both English and French and "Ici raddio Cana-da" is almost as easy to recognize as the English "This is Radio Canada." On a more local scene, an arranged link up on VHF or UHF can have the mobile ops describe where they are and what they are doing and can be heard by all on voice. With their cooperation, the VHF or UHF operators could talk with visitors who only need instruction in the PTT, to press when talking, release to listen. Simple stuff that they can do and get an enormous boost from hands-on participation. THEY got ON the radio, themselves, not just listening to some stranger they stood behind. Minor acts like brief third-party operating can have an affect on how they perceive this ham radio stuff. For a good final act to a demo is having one mobile ham show up right after. Those in on the demo can recognize the op's voice and get a stronger impression...there he/she is in-person! :-) 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N3OX on 2008-11-02 "Prove me wrong and try to identify some function (communication, competition, intellectual discovery, social interaction, etc) that ham radio does better than computers, internet, or cell phones." Physical-layer-level, infrastructure free wireless experimentation. The only thing that comes close is WiFi DXing, and that doesn't carry the promise of worldwide communication. I'll say it again. E-mailing Hong Kong? Boring. Working Hong Kong on 1.8MHz CW? Thrilling! Don't totally discount the appeal of ham radio because we have other communications methods available. Ham radio allows me to contact the other guy with no middleman, sometimes in surprising ways. It's the only game in town for that. That doesn't necessarily appeal to a normal high schooler, but it never did ;-) But that doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to some younger people. Just don't tune the radio to 75m phone when you have the boy scouts over to your shack. Tune across some weak, fluttery UA0's fading in and out of the noise on 20m CW and explain how you're listening to Siberia with no intervening wires. You'll occasionally hook someone that way. I stayed up late winter nights ten years ago as an 18 year old ham, logged into the #CQDX IRC chat while tuning around 40m CW. Trust me, the ZL's I ran into on the air were a totally different thing than the ZL's I ran into on the internet, and there's a small segment of any young population who will understand that. Look for the weird kids, demonstrate some DX CW to them, they'll be interested. The average, popular high school kid has to get through college probably before they'll let their inner weird kid come out. You have to wait a little longer for them. 73 Dan Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-11-02 N2EY trotted out his "radio history for dummies" notebook, poison pen, and wrote: "You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that." Not by your personal experience. When 11m CB was created in 1958 you were about 5 years old. You had NO personal experience with the first five years of 11m CB. I did and millions of others did. You are only 'reporting' what you've seen on ham radio forums in the last two decades or so. .......... N2EY: "CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC." What something was "meant for" and ACTUAL USE can differ widely. In the first 5 years of 11m CB, the ACTUAL USE was for "personal communications," particularly in urban areas. What was unusual was that the average CB-er of that time was in the thirty-something age group, NOT youth. Contrary to politically-correct ham opinion, there was little REAL policing of CB by the FCC, there was NO widespread "shooting skip" and the "high power" CB amplifiers were extremely rare. That would continue for the next decade when the off-shore radio makers entered the market. Nearly ALL CB users were CASUAL users, except the truckers found that it was an excellent way to break the boredom of driving for hours on end. The only REAL "high power" users were those who bought General Radiotelephone transceivers, made in nearby Burbank, CA. "General" used a TV horizontal sweep tube for a final and had a built-in jumper to "allow high power operation when the FCC approves of that." The "high power" was about 25 to 30 W peak RF but still with down-modulation. Many who bought a General around here immediately did the jumper change or asked someone to do it for them. I never did that, Jimmie, don't start in with your usual accusatory allusions. General Radiotelephone didn't make it into big-time CB sales and tried to get into business radio. They moved from their second-floor Hq and assembly area on Burbank Boulevard some time in the late 1960s and might still be around somewhere in L.A. What is interesting is that General liked to brag about their partly-completed tower (for the future) but never completed it. That initial construction is still standing on the roof of their original business building. A post-production sound editing firm occupies the second floor now. While assembly was 100% done by workers on-site (all point-to-point hand wiring), components were the cheapest available. Esthetically, the exterior designs must have been conceived by color-blind elders without a trace of artistic sense. What got the Electronic Industries Association (EIA) in a dither was the flood of off-shore designed-and-made 11m CB sets in the 1960s. You don't realize that because you saw so little of it first-hand that nearly every USA radio maker had at least one 11m CB transceiver in their product line in the 1960s. All of those are long GONE and everything of what is left is made off-shore now. The "lack of popularity" came about simply because the market (largely supported by truckers) SATURATED. Saturation to the point of new sets just replacing old ones. Prompting/lobbying for more channels came about from manufacturing groups wanting to increase their edge in an already-dwindling market. Forty channels with dozens of users for each one in an urban area just isn't enough, even when some set designs used SSB techniques to break through. The EIA and other industry associations were trying to fight the flood of imports in the 1960s and into the 1970s. Some manufacturers bowed to the inevitable. An example is RCA Corporation announcing that all of their black-and-white TV models would be made off-shore from about 1973 and after (year approximate based on memories of then while working for RCA EASD in Van Nuys, CA; RCA TV division was in Indianapolis, IN). Today I think that ALL new TV receivers on the consumer market in the USA are made off-shore. ............... N2EY: "This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them." Sonny, all you've done is to keep alive the old-timer ham hatred and bigotry of CB that started when you were about 5 years old. You have NO first-hand experience in that and all you are doing is repeating what you've read on amateur radio forums. For example: N2EY: "Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era." You have a very mixed-up timeline. The CB market saturated a quarter century ago. Cellular telephony installations increased in earnest in the 1990s, can be seen today all along major highways of the USA. The Internet went public in 1991 but took about four years to make enough steam to really roll out. Had you ever been OUT on the highways of the USA any time from the 1970s to the present you would have experienced - first hand - that there are FEW who bother driving at ANY posted speed limit. Truckers have continued to cruise at 70 MPH despite any "ban" on maximum speed at any time. That is said NOT to condone such behavior, simply reporting what is atually done, as observed first-hand, ON the highways. Following your pattern of messaging, you will now come back with a LECTURE on driving, safe speeds, etc. Give up the lecturing, Jimmie. ............ N2EY: "You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it?" Wrong again. Not past tense. My E.F.Johnson Viking Messenger (bought at Henry Radio in Los Angeles in early 1958) is gathering dust on a shelf in the workshop. So is a Bendix Marine Division tube type made OEM by some other firm (half-price sale by a Bendix rep friend). They might still work. Old designs, needed crystal control on each channel, both Rx and Tx. Vibrator HV supply in both, NOT reliable, never were for mobile radios. Nobody wants such things now. Based on contemporary CB transceivers of the time, BOTH are average size, not "miniaturized." I am not "miniaturized" either and still operational. Any more cracks? ........... Try, please TRY to get on the Article SUBJECT, Jimmie. The subject is Bringing Youth Into Amateur Radio. What youth have YOU enticed into ham radio? Did they actually enter after you LECTURED them using mixed-up timeline "history" cribs? I haven't enticed any youth into amateur radio. I've enticed two younger people to enter the electronics industry and both did, are still working in it. But, as you keep reminding everyone, I am a "newcomer" to amateur radio and therefore can't possibly know anything. <shrug> I'm acquainted with a sizeable number of non-radio people, including some under 18 years of age. I can understand a bit better what the general group of young people prefer, see it reflected in the marketplace and advertising, with less bias than the average parent can. In general those younger people want to do what intrigues them, are not enthused by the same things that enticed a fifty-something ham 40 years ago. Yet, fifty-something (and older) marketing people CAN get them enthused. There's a lesson to be learned in that, subliminal perhaps, but what Don Keith, N4KC, alluded to in his message. Don IS in marketing. One HAS to see into young people's minds, not force them in with what YOU think they should know. Certainly NOT with what was written by the ARRL a half century ago. Len, AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' ... Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably." You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that. CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC. And for the first few years, 11 meter CB wasn't too bad. CB users followed the rules and enjoyed their radios. After all, the FCC had set up the rules and would enforce them - right? But by the late 1960s, some CBers were simply ignoring the FCC rules. They'd run illegal high power to big antennas, contact distant stations, intentionally interfere with others, etc. They began to adopt "handles" (pseudonyms) and use phony accents to hide their real identities. Many simply didn't bother with licenses at all. Before long, the rules-following CB users were completely outnumbered, and soon disappeared. FCC finally gave up trying to license cb users completely. The oil crises of the 1970s, and the resulting 55 mph speed limit, were a major promotion for cb in the 1970s. CB became a way for truckers and others to avoid law enforcement officers and the speed limit, to the point that movies were made glorifying this aspect of CB. What really bothered many hams was the fact that these antics were not confined to the 23 channels of 11 meters. The use of illegal and often poorly-designed-and-operated high power amplifiers by cb users resulted in TV interference and other RFI problems. These problems were often blamed on hams with perfectly clean and legal transmitters, because the hams were easily located, identified themselves on the air and were known to FCC. To add to the mess, some CB users modified their radios to operate outside the legal CB channels, invading the allocations of other radio services near 27 MHz, including the 10 meter ham band. This sort of activity, called "HFing" or "freebanding", became so prevalent that in 1978 FCC passed regulations against the sale of various forms of RF power amplifiers. These regulations had little effect on the illegals, though. In the 1970s, the EIA (a manufacturer's group) petitioned FCC to reallocate the 220 MHz ham band to a new "Class E" CB service, using FM on many more channels. Both 11 meter CB users and hams opposed this, for obvious reasons. (The hams didn't want to lose another band while the CB users didn't want to have to replace practically their entire setups, and give up much of the long-distance capabilities of 11 meters). This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them. Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era. The ironic thing is that, when CB had licenses, there was a minimum-age requirement for the license. 15 years of age, IIRC. You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-10-31 AB7E posted on October 30, 2008: "If 30 years ago you had the choice between a hobby that mostly just allowed you to talk into a mic (or tap out CW) when the band was open (and only to those who had licenses) and required you to have a bunch of different unique hardware (including outdoor antennas that upset the neighbors), versus being able to speak with all of your friends anytime with a cellphone smaller than your wallet or play interactive games online with stunning graphics (on a piece of hardware you already have and complete with free group voice chat) anytime with anyone anywhere in the world ... which would you have chosen?? I sincerely doubt it would have been ham radio." In all honesty I have to agree with that. Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' Before that end-of-the-1950s period the 'radio' interest had been with 'Hi-Fi' and the excellence of recordings on long-play vinyl grooved discs, then stereo tape, and finally, the beginning of widespread stereo FM broadcasting. ............. AB7E: "And of course this has nothing to do with the "laziness" or "immediate gratification" grumpy old men (ham radio is full of them) like to attribute to youngsters. Check out how many retired folks of both sexes are active participants in World of Warcraft or Second Life ... they dwarf late-in-life recruits to ham radio by orders of magnitude." I don't doubt it. Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably. In the next semi-niche hobby, personal computers, the BBS was born in the late 1970s and brought together a way-wider group of social interacters. BBSers who interacted in-person as well as on the phone lines with computer-modems were more homogenous representatives of the population. Few were radio-active but all were eager to try out this brand new medium of communications. In urban areas this kept on expanding until the Internet went public in 1991 and provided the first widespread international communications participation by computer-modem. In the 1980s the computer hobbyist community was rivaling amateur radio numbers, having more special-interest independent computer hobbyist magazines than were published in the USA at the time. By 1990 the cell phone was becoming smaller and less expensive and growing all over the country. In a decade it would become so small and so numerous that one in ten Americans were cell phone subscribers. By 2004 one in three Americans had cell phone subscriptions; teen-agers were able to use them to interact with other teeners and the 'texting' craze had begun. Why not? The price was far lower than portable ham gear, could be carried in a shirt pocket or small purse and used much without racking up a sizeable phone bill. ............ AB7E: "I would gladly try to mentor anyone who showed a budding interest in ham radio, but I don't see the point in trying to be an evangelist for the hobby." I would rather evangelize the electronics industry to younger people. It is far bigger than amateurism in radio and has FAR greater scope and variation on what it can do. It can also provide a very decent wage and be a fun job at the same time. Amateur radio is a niche hobby and the old-timers have managed to both stratify it and mummify it in old standards and practices suitable for long-past times. For younger people, the rationale that a ham license lets you "advance the state of the radio art and talk to foreign folk for 'free' on one's own station" is trite and dated. It might have worked in the 1960s but this is four decades (and two generations) later. For one thing it is definitely NOT 'free' since a decent station for HF is going to cost more than a complete PC set-up. For another, HF is NOT that reliable 24/7 and the average lower-power HF ham bands are at the mercy of the ionosphere. The only 'advancing the art' in HF radio is inside the radios and that technology has almost saturated. .............. AB7E: "Like NN4RH says, kids aren't idiots (or lazy when it comes to interesting things), and if they have any interest in what ham radio has to offer they will find it." Absolutely true. Based on my 'beginner, newbie' life experience over the last 76 years, EVERY old-generation curmudgeon gets all disgusted about the do-nothing younger generation. They just won't recognize that that THEY were once considered 'do-nothing' young wastrels by generation-older curmudgeons of their day. :-) I've read of the same attitudes prevalent in most societies over previous centuries...Pompeii curmudgeons were probably cussing THEIR do-nothing young folks just before Vesuvious blew its top and buried everyone. :-) .............. AB7E: "Most of this talk about enticing young folks into the hobby (and it is just a hobby ... it isn't the path to heaven) simply sounds to me like people in a niche activity looking for validation. Why else would you consider it to be important?" Much of the TALK is simply rationalization. On the other hand, if license numbers start to drop again and newcomers don't replace the usual human-attrition expirations, that WILL be noticed by commercial groups that might want to use ham bands for other purposes. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : AB7E on 2008-10-31 KE7UXE: "Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal." How do you figure? That isn't even remotely true. Not only is global internet voice chat full duplex, FM quality, real time, and free ... people can use it while collaborating in an online game, or while working together on a drawing or file, or while streaming music to each other. None of that is new, either ... it's been available for years from multiple sources. This is exactly what I mean. Hams lament that kids today are too lazy and disconnected with technology to discover ham radio, and the reality is that hams are too disconnected to understand the kinds of alternatives for kids that make ham radio merely a legacy curiosity for them. Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 "ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board." No it isn't...it is giving them friends to text who happen to be in Estonia, Spain and Japan. Sadly, for many the alure of ham radio is the gear. IMO it ought to be the opportunity to talk with a wide variety of people from all over the world. Ham radio is a social activity. That is what kids might like. If later they get interested in the equipment, so be it. Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal. Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| K1CJS | 2008-11-03 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| >>>You usually wouldn't bother? I almost spit my teeth out when I seen that.<<< I'm beginning to see why you are like you are there--Plankeye.... You've got to be lead around and have things pointed out to you. You continually write about nothing remotely connected to the subject, and you fail to see the obvious. I said "I usually wouldn't bother" ....answering unidentified potstirrers like you. You won't even stop your attempts at sidetracking articles like this--an attempt to solicit ideas for getting ham radio introduced to young people. You're on your usual roll--you've got to use your little space bar, taking up excess space, and sign everything in your cute way even though the people here know who the nonsense is coming from. Those antics tend to make people think ham radio attracts off-the-wall characters even more than they do now. Why are you like that? Because you're another sort of juvenile that amateur radio has attracted--but not a young potential ham--a juvenile delinquent. If this is what kind of person who is being attracted to ham radio, it's no wonder ham radio is skidding downhill. Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-01 You usually wouldn't bother? I almost spit my teeth out when I seen that. Dag-gummitt again!! You got more angles than a Gazebo!! PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-01 I usually wouldn't bother--but I'm going to make an exception. Hey plank--Didn't you see the smiley at the end of the sentence? Or are you just so plain dumb that you don't know what it means? Its obvious its the latter. Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-01 THIS IS K1CJS: You know what? I'm here to read articles and their comments--not books. It would be nice if comments could be kept shorter--so other people can understand 'em. ;-) ____________________________________________________ THIS IS PLANKEYE: Be nice and treat people with respect! Short comment, did you understand it? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-01 You know what? I'm here to read articles and their comments--not books. It would be nice if comments could be kept shorter--so other people can understand 'em. ;-) Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS." N2EY replied: "Well, you should know, Len, being a newcomer to ham radio yourself." AF6AY: "trying to diss me as you have for years over on rec.radio.amateur.policy." I'm not trying to "diss" you, Len. I'm simply pointing out a fact: You're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I became a 'newcomer' to HF radio on the first week in February, 1953,.....55 1/2 years ago. There is NOTHING in or about amateur radio that is SO unique that 'all' who enter are 'always beginners.'" Nobody said anyhting like that, Len. What I wrote was the fact that you're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I've legally operated radios in seven other radio services before I got my amateur radio license." Sure - a cb, a cell phone, somebody else's marine radio, somebody else's aircraft radio, and some radios in the military as part of a team of personnel trained for the job. But you're still a newcomer to amateur radio. That's not a "diss", it's just a fact. N2EY: "It's odd, though, that you'd be yelling for newcomers when it was you who asked the FCC to create a minimum-age requirement of 14 years for all amateur radio licenses." AF6AY: "What you are referring to is my Comment on FCC Docket 98-143 that was accepted by them on 13 January 1999, two days before their stated end of all Comments." That was a Reply Comment, Len. AF6AY: "Anyone can access my Reply to Comments via the FCC ECFS." Here's a link: http://tinyurl.com/y6uhr3 AF6AY: "I never 'asked' the FCC specifically for that age limit." Yes, you did, Len. AF6AY: "It was a SUGGESTION based on the cute, cute story in the ARRL Letter showing two six-year-olds who passed (respectively) the Technician and Novice exams." It was a request that the rules be changed to ban anyone under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Why the licensing of six-year-olds bothered you, a non-amateur well past the age of 60 at the time, remains a mystery. This thread is about "bringing youth into amateur radio", and you seem to want to ban a considerable part of the youth of the USA from it. You even accused the ARRL VEs of fraud: http://tinyurl.com/2k5mb5 Say - it was an ARRL VE session where you earned your amateur license, wasn't it? AF6AY: "It is all explained in my Reply to Comments. A SUGGESTION to restore a lower age limit, to stop CHILDREN from being legally able to interfere worldwide on HF all by themselves." Not just HF. Your request was to ban all persons under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Yet you could not cite one case - not one single case! - of interference or other problems caused by the youth of a US amateur radio operator. Not one case. Yet you would ban all under 14 years of age, if you had your way, just because they are children, regardless of the tests they passed. In fact, if one bothers to look at the FCC Enforcement actions, the worst offenders in the realm of interference are people of *your* age group in 1998, Len. One of them, who lived not far from you, was sentenced to seven years in prison for his antics, IIRC. IOW, if age is the issue, it's not the young hams who are the enforcement problem. AF6AY: "Age fourteen was an arbitrary age." Based on nothing but your own personal biases against young people: http://tinyurl.com/2akck9 AF6AY: "YOU perceived a (gasp!) 'personal insult' and you've been trying, trying, trying to gain retribution for that terrible, terrible PERCEIVED personal insult ever since." Nope, not me, Len. I'm just pointing out some facts. AF6AY: "Two children of age six BEAT you by seven years." So what? Nothing new to me; there were younger hams than I back in 1967. Those two children beat *you* to an amateur radio license by 68 years, Len. I beat you by 61 years. Seems to me you're the one with the "perceived personal insult" problem. AF6AY: "you couldn't comment on ANYTHING ELSE I wrote in 13 pages of Reply to Comments on Docket 98-143." I couldn't Reply Comment to your Reply Comment because you mailed them to FCC just before the deadline. Your other comments can be summed up in a single sentence: You wanted the Morse Code test to go away, because you don't like Morse Code. AF6AY: "I've never asked, suggested, or made a big thing out of age requirements to the FCC since." Not the point, Len. You made a big thing out of it in Reply Comments to FCC and in other discussions: http://tinyurl.com/yxq3rr AF6AY: "I've written a lot on the various dockets about radio regulations at the FCC." Yes, you have, and it's been all basically the same stuff. I feel sorry for the folks at FCC who had to read all that verbiage. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST FCC exam in the first week of March, 1956. At age 23." That's nice, Len. I took my first FCC exam when I was 13. Got my Extra at age 16 and my Second Phone at 18. Never went beyond Second Phone because I went into electrical engineering and didn't need it. Got my BSEE at age 22. MSEE took a little longer. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST amateur radio exam at age 74, passed it on the first try, ALMOST on the 51st anniversary of my first FCC test. Just WHAT do you have against that?" Nothing, Len. I'm just pointing out that you're a newcomer to amateur radio, that's all. Why does that bother you so much? It seems to really bother you that I've had almost 40 years' more experience in amateur radio than you, though. AF6AY: "you've kept harping me over the years that I "should" have gotten a ham license "first." [just like YOU did] I 'should" have taken a code test. [just as you did]" I've never said you "should" have done those things, Len. You're either mistaken or lying about that. What I and others have pointed out is that you *could* have done those things, but refused or failed to do them. Yet you want to be revered as The Authority On How Amateur Radio Should Be. COULD, not SHOULD. Big difference there. AF6AY: "WHY 'should' I have done what YOU did?" Well, (and I'm not saying you SHOULD have done what I did, only that you COULD have done something similar), consider this: If you had gotten an amateur radio license when *you* were 13, you'd have had a head start on getting into electronics, electrical engineering, radio, etc. Maybe you'd have gotten a scholarship to a major four-year University, or advanced training in the military based on your knowledge learned as a ham. You'd probably have been able to get that First Phone at 18 instead of 23. Also, if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, your comments to FCC and other hams would have carried more weight and been more convincing because you'd be arguing as someone with personal involvement and experience, not as an outsider. And if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, by now you'd have had over 70 years of enjoying amateur radio, instead of less than 2 years. Most of all, I think that if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13 you'd be a lot happier and more pleasant person today. But that's just my opinion. AF6AY: "You've tried to argue that YOU know more about the US military than I do" Where and when, Len? Do you mean the time when I corrected some of your mistakes about Soviet aircraft? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/a8cdd2dca86c2951?dmode=source my Reply http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/e56247af30b0c9a7?dmode=source Or maybe your classic post "dissing" another US Military Radio Operator's service: http://tinyurl.com/27fbwe which later led to your admission that your account of an artillery barrage was based only on others' experience: http://tinyurl.com/2tpq2l AF6AY: "I just cannot get up the same 'patriotism' for US amateur radio." That's fine, Len. Heck, it's taken you a year and a half just to put up a simple HF vertical, even with the help of contractors. Nobody says your interest must match others'. AF6AY: "It is a HOBBY activity, a recreational pursuit for personal pleasure." For you. Others are more involved, such as those who helped provide communications during natural disasters and the Shuttle debris recovery. AF6AY: "All that is required is to follow lawful regulations. In the current regulations for US amateurs there is NO regulation that mandates OOK CW modes over any other mode." So what? AF6AY: "There is NO regulation in all of Title 47 C.F.R. that states anyone MUST have an amateur radio license first before having any other radio license." And there is NO regulation banning young people from Amateur Radio just because they are young. AF6AY: "Yet you've kept on harping about what I "should" have done." Where? Show me a SPECIFIC example - a direct quote where I said such a thing. I don't think you can. AF6AY: "I got my first amateur radio license at age 74, rather well into retirement. Went for the top class and got it first try." Why did you wait so long, Len? I got the Novice, Technician, Advanced and Extra licenses on my first try, too. The testing for those licenses was somewhat more involved back when I took them, though. And I passed all of them except the Extra before I ever set foot in high school. AF6AY: "That raised a lot of hackles of the entrenched, brainwashed-as-a-teener crowd who said I "should have" come up through the ranks [just like they did]." No, it didn't raise any hackles. It surprised a few folks, and brought you a round of congratulations, but that's all. And it really wasn't much of a surprise, seeing as how you'd told the world you were "going for Extra out of the box" more than 7 years before you actually did: http://tinyurl.com/c5qyv AF6AY: "I'm not going to apologize to anyone." Well, you never let facts get in the way of a good rant, either. AF6AY: "What I did was what ANYONE else could do, either test." It's been possible to go for the top class of US amateur license on the first go for more than 30 years. AF6AY: "HOW I use that amateur license is treated the same way for my commercial license: Follow regulations. I "owe" exactly NOTHING to any group or 'amateur community' nor self-styled 'ham patriots' (and 'radio cops') who demand I do what they say with my amateur license." Nobody has "demanded" that you do anything other than follow the rules and good amateur practice, Len. What some folks wonder is what you've actually done, that's all. You don't talk about what you really do in ham radio, so it's a good bet the answer is "not much". AF6AY: "You live to ARGUE against those who don't side with your opinions." Not me, Len. You're describing yourself. All anyone has to do is to look up your many postings under various screen identities, or your massive verbiage to FCC to see that. AF6AY: "At the same time you hide behind a lot of stock (but empty) phrases of 'civility' and 'good manners' while you 'save' selected message 'examples' for some kind of posterity (as if Google doesn't have any TeraByte servers)." Not true, Len. Unlike you, I don't have to call people insulting names to make a point. Instead, I use facts and sound reasoning. To back up my reasoning, I've simply provided links to some of your past messages, posted in public forums for all to see. That's not wrong, illegal, or "uncivil". Don't you want people to know what you've written in the past? AF6AY: "You only 'saved' them to ressurect at a much later time to 'prove' a point that YOU are the uncivil one." You're saying that it's "uncivil" to point out what another has written in the past. That's simply not true, Len. I post the links to back up my reasoning with facts and actual quotes. If your arguments were valid, you could do the same thing. But you don't post links to things you claim I have written. I suspect that's because you know your claims are false. AF6AY: "Your other questions are just rewritten goads of the past so that you can set up to ARGUE something." Not at all. I just want to know what you, a newcomer, define as "standards and practices of the 1950s". I think the real reason you duck such questions is that they would show that the things you do in amateur radio, such as VHF FM and maybe HF SSB, with manufactured amateur radio equipment, are all right out of those very same "standards and practices of the 1950s" that you denigrate. If you're really proud of what you do in Amateur Radio, Len, why are you so angry, defensive and secretive about it? Can't you tolerate different opinions without calling people names? That's enough for now. The ARRL CW Sweepstakes starts late this afternoon, and I'm going to be in it. A friend has loaned me a nice top-of-the-line solid-state transceiver to check out for him, and maybe I'll use it for Sweepstakes. The 'phone weekend is coming up, too! My first CW Sweepstakes was in 1968 and I've only missed one in all that time. Oh and the Phillies won the World Series. Big celebration in this town of winners! 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dudes, I have an awesome idea, let's take all the post's from the careful how you speak article and make a Ham Spirit Banner Article. Gotta go, I'm making popcorn!! Happy Halloween. PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dag-gummit, I think the Youth is right here on this Site/Hobby. Right before my very own eyes and I didn't even see it! Dag-Gummit! You all are as silly as chrome paint! This hobby has Teen Spirit written all over it!! I don't know how I missed it. Another thing, Super-op is a Japenese Phrase meaning some kind of Japenese meaning OK. Hello? Geez? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| N2EY | 2008-11-03 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| N2EY: "You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that." AF6AY: "Not by your personal experience." So what, Len? You've written enormous amounts about amateur radio (and other things) far beyond *your* personal experience. AF6AY: "When 11m CB was created in 1958 you were about 5 years old. You had NO personal experience with the first five years of 11m CB." How do you know? Lots of kids got 100 milliwatt CB "walkie talkies" in those days. Some had family members who were cb users. And anyone with an AM receiver and antenna capable of 27 MHz could listen in, even if they never became cbers. AF6AY: "I did and millions of others did." That's nice, Len. Where you active in cb after 1963? Isn't what I wrote pretty much what happened? AF6AY: "You are only 'reporting' what you've seen on ham radio forums in the last two decades or so." No, I'm telling it like it was. And recall that what I wrote about those first five years was this: (From previous posting) 'And for the first few years, 11 meter CB wasn't too bad. CB users followed the rules and enjoyed their radios. After all, the FCC had set up the rules and would enforce them - right? But by the late 1960s, some CBers were simply ignoring the FCC rules. They'd run illegal high power to big antennas, contact distant stations, intentionally interfere with others, etc. They began to adopt "handles" (pseudonyms) and use phony accents to hide their real identities. Many simply didn't bother with licenses at all. Before long, the rules-following CB users were completely outnumbered, and soon disappeared. FCC finally gave up trying to license cb users completely.' What part of that isn't true for the time period mentioned (late 1960s?) N2EY: "CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC." AF6AY: "What something was "meant for" and ACTUAL USE can differ widely. In the first 5 years of 11m CB, the ACTUAL USE was for "personal communications," particularly in urban areas. What was unusual was that the average CB-er of that time was in the thirty-something age group, NOT youth. Contrary to politically-correct ham opinion, there was little REAL policing of CB by the FCC, there was NO widespread "shooting skip" and the "high power" CB amplifiers were extremely rare. That would continue for the next decade when the off-shore radio makers entered the market. Nearly ALL CB users were CASUAL users, except the truckers found that it was an excellent way to break the boredom of driving for hours on end." But cb didn't stay that way, did it? AF6AY: "The only REAL "high power" users were those who bought General Radiotelephone transceivers, made in nearby Burbank, CA." Really? *NOBODY* made "linear amplifiers" for 11 meters? *NOBODY* used them on 11 meters in the 1960s? AF6AY: "What got the Electronic Industries Association (EIA) in a dither was the flood of off-shore designed-and-made 11m CB sets in the 1960s." Is that why, in the mid 1970s, the EIA proposed moving CB to 220-225 MHz? AF6AY: "You don't realize that because you saw so little of it first-hand that nearly every USA radio maker had at least one 11m CB transceiver in their product line in the 1960s." You're wrong, Len. I was there and I saw it. My first personal Allied catalog was 1965 or 1966, and it had lots of cb stuff in it. Collins never made any cb sets. Nor did Drake, btw. AF6AY: "The "lack of popularity" came about simply because the market (largely supported by truckers) SATURATED. Saturation to the point of new sets just replacing old ones." No, that's not true, Len. In the 1970s a lot of folks had cb sets in their cars and homes. The antennas were the giveaway; anyone who knew a little radio knew what to look for. CB antennas on homes or cars are extremely rare these days. AF6AY: "Prompting/lobbying for more channels came about from manufacturing groups wanting to increase their edge in an already-dwindling market. Forty channels with dozens of users for each one in an urban area just isn't enough, even when some set designs used SSB techniques to break through." 80 channels (if SSB is used) is plenty for an urban area *IF* the users follow the rules (low power, short conversations, local stuff only). But that's not how cb worked in the 1970s. The EIA proposal of the 1970s would have moved 11 meter CB to 220 MHz. Had that happened, all 11 meter cbers would have had to replace their radio sets, antennas, and most accessories. Only the coax, power supplies and a few accessories might have been usable. Plus there wouldn't be much "skip" on 220. If the market was dwindling, why did they need more channels? AF6AY: "The EIA and other industry associations were trying to fight the flood of imports in the 1960s and into the 1970s." How would reallocating 220 do that? The Japanese could make Class E cb sets as easily and cheaply as Class D. N2EY: "This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them." AF6AY: "all you've done is to keep alive the old-timer ham hatred and bigotry of CB that started when you were about 5 years old." What have I written about cb history that isn't the plain and simple facts? Do you think CB always was and still is a well-ordered radio service where almost everyone follows FCC regulations? Do you think amateur radio should become more like the cb of the 1970s? AF6AY: "You have NO first-hand experience in that and all you are doing is repeating what you've read on amateur radio forums." Len, I've had receivers capable of listening to 11 meters since about 1966. Also a lot of friends who were involved in cb. I know what happened to that radio service. SO do you but you won't admit it. N2EY: "Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era." AF6AY: "You have a very mixed-up timeline. The CB market saturated a quarter century ago." 1983? Now who has a mixed up timeline? AF6AY: "Cellular telephony installations increased in earnest in the 1990s, can be seen today all along major highways of the USA. The Internet went public in 1991 but took about four years to make enough steam to really roll out." So what? The point is, cb isn't a fad anymore, and its popularity is far less than what it was in the late 1960s and 1970s. Just look at the lack of cb antennas on cars and homes. AF6AY: "Had you ever been OUT on the highways of the USA any time from the 1970s to the present you would have experienced - first hand - that there are FEW who bother driving at ANY posted speed limit." Actually, Len, I've been "out on the highways of the USA" since the 1950s. Compliance with speed limits varies all over the place. But that's not the point. AF6AY: "Truckers have continued to cruise at 70 MPH despite any "ban" on maximum speed at any time. That is said NOT to condone such behavior, simply reporting what is atually done, as observed first-hand, ON the highways." There's a big difference between doing 70 mph when the posted speed is 65, and fuel is plentiful, and doing 70 mph when the posted speed is 55 and fuel is in short supply. Fuel mileage drops dramatically with speed above about 50 MPH because the aerodynamic resistance increases exponentially, not linearly. But one big point is this: the now-repealed Federal 55 mph speed limit was unpopular with a considerable number of people. It bothered some folks enough that they'd use cb to alert each other of law-enforcement activities, to facilitate speeding without getting caught. The main point in all this cb discussion, though, is that while CB *started out* as a well-behaved radio service, it didn't stay that way. By the mid-1970s it was completely out of FCC's control. That's not a good thing, IMHO. And it all happened despite the fact that there was a minimum-age requirement for a CB license. (US ham radio licenses have never had such a requirement). AF6AY: "Try, please TRY to get on the Article SUBJECT" You're the one who brought up cb, Len. I'm simply correcting your mistakes on its history. AF6AY: "The subject is Bringing Youth Into Amateur Radio." So why did you mention cb at all? AF6AY: "What youth have YOU enticed into ham radio?" Well, I wouldn't use the word "enticed". What I have done is to publicize Amateur Radio to people of all ages. Some are interested, most are not, because "radio for its own sake" is something of a niche activity. No problem, the main thing is to make sure people know what ham radio is, not to hard-sell them. I've taught classes in ham radio (theory and Morse Code), helped new hams set up stations, done demonstrations of ham radio (one of the prime reasons for Field Day), and much more, like on-line help to other hams with less experience. It's called "Elmering", Len. AF6AY: "I haven't enticed any youth into amateur radio." That's not surprising, considering the fact that you want to ban anyone under the age of 14 from even having an amateur radio license. Seems to be a personal problem of yours: http://tinyurl.com/2akck9 AF6AY: "I'm acquainted with a sizeable number of non-radio people, including some under 18 years of age. I can understand a bit better what the general group of young people prefer, see it reflected in the marketplace and advertising, with less bias than the average parent can." I think you're much more biased, Len. Plus you've never been a parent, right? AF6AY: "In general those younger people want to do what intrigues them, are not enthused by the same things that enticed a fifty-something ham 40 years ago." Well, Len, if 40-odd years ago I had met a ham with your attitude towards young people, and those who disagree with you, I might have been put off too. -- One thing I have observed about "young people" is that their interests vary all over the place, and broad sweeping statements about what will and won't interest them are invariably wrong. For example, despite all the common technologies of today that did not exist 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, young people still display lots of interest in "old fashioned" things. Like sports (soccer, baseball, and basketball are big around here, for girls and boys), going to movies (even though they have YouTube, DVD players, FiOS, satellites and HDTV), etc. Halloween is big around here; so are the performing arts (band, orchestra, plays, parades). And despite all the new technologies, young people still read books. Real books, printed on paper, with words and no pictures. The way to bring youth into Amateur Radio is to publicize what's unique about Amateur Radio, and help those who are interested get started. 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-11-02 N2EY trotted out his "radio history for dummies" notebook, poison pen, and wrote: "You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that." Not by your personal experience. When 11m CB was created in 1958 you were about 5 years old. You had NO personal experience with the first five years of 11m CB. I did and millions of others did. You are only 'reporting' what you've seen on ham radio forums in the last two decades or so. .......... N2EY: "CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC." What something was "meant for" and ACTUAL USE can differ widely. In the first 5 years of 11m CB, the ACTUAL USE was for "personal communications," particularly in urban areas. What was unusual was that the average CB-er of that time was in the thirty-something age group, NOT youth. Contrary to politically-correct ham opinion, there was little REAL policing of CB by the FCC, there was NO widespread "shooting skip" and the "high power" CB amplifiers were extremely rare. That would continue for the next decade when the off-shore radio makers entered the market. Nearly ALL CB users were CASUAL users, except the truckers found that it was an excellent way to break the boredom of driving for hours on end. The only REAL "high power" users were those who bought General Radiotelephone transceivers, made in nearby Burbank, CA. "General" used a TV horizontal sweep tube for a final and had a built-in jumper to "allow high power operation when the FCC approves of that." The "high power" was about 25 to 30 W peak RF but still with down-modulation. Many who bought a General around here immediately did the jumper change or asked someone to do it for them. I never did that, Jimmie, don't start in with your usual accusatory allusions. General Radiotelephone didn't make it into big-time CB sales and tried to get into business radio. They moved from their second-floor Hq and assembly area on Burbank Boulevard some time in the late 1960s and might still be around somewhere in L.A. What is interesting is that General liked to brag about their partly-completed tower (for the future) but never completed it. That initial construction is still standing on the roof of their original business building. A post-production sound editing firm occupies the second floor now. While assembly was 100% done by workers on-site (all point-to-point hand wiring), components were the cheapest available. Esthetically, the exterior designs must have been conceived by color-blind elders without a trace of artistic sense. What got the Electronic Industries Association (EIA) in a dither was the flood of off-shore designed-and-made 11m CB sets in the 1960s. You don't realize that because you saw so little of it first-hand that nearly every USA radio maker had at least one 11m CB transceiver in their product line in the 1960s. All of those are long GONE and everything of what is left is made off-shore now. The "lack of popularity" came about simply because the market (largely supported by truckers) SATURATED. Saturation to the point of new sets just replacing old ones. Prompting/lobbying for more channels came about from manufacturing groups wanting to increase their edge in an already-dwindling market. Forty channels with dozens of users for each one in an urban area just isn't enough, even when some set designs used SSB techniques to break through. The EIA and other industry associations were trying to fight the flood of imports in the 1960s and into the 1970s. Some manufacturers bowed to the inevitable. An example is RCA Corporation announcing that all of their black-and-white TV models would be made off-shore from about 1973 and after (year approximate based on memories of then while working for RCA EASD in Van Nuys, CA; RCA TV division was in Indianapolis, IN). Today I think that ALL new TV receivers on the consumer market in the USA are made off-shore. ............... N2EY: "This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them." Sonny, all you've done is to keep alive the old-timer ham hatred and bigotry of CB that started when you were about 5 years old. You have NO first-hand experience in that and all you are doing is repeating what you've read on amateur radio forums. For example: N2EY: "Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era." You have a very mixed-up timeline. The CB market saturated a quarter century ago. Cellular telephony installations increased in earnest in the 1990s, can be seen today all along major highways of the USA. The Internet went public in 1991 but took about four years to make enough steam to really roll out. Had you ever been OUT on the highways of the USA any time from the 1970s to the present you would have experienced - first hand - that there are FEW who bother driving at ANY posted speed limit. Truckers have continued to cruise at 70 MPH despite any "ban" on maximum speed at any time. That is said NOT to condone such behavior, simply reporting what is atually done, as observed first-hand, ON the highways. Following your pattern of messaging, you will now come back with a LECTURE on driving, safe speeds, etc. Give up the lecturing, Jimmie. ............ N2EY: "You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it?" Wrong again. Not past tense. My E.F.Johnson Viking Messenger (bought at Henry Radio in Los Angeles in early 1958) is gathering dust on a shelf in the workshop. So is a Bendix Marine Division tube type made OEM by some other firm (half-price sale by a Bendix rep friend). They might still work. Old designs, needed crystal control on each channel, both Rx and Tx. Vibrator HV supply in both, NOT reliable, never were for mobile radios. Nobody wants such things now. Based on contemporary CB transceivers of the time, BOTH are average size, not "miniaturized." I am not "miniaturized" either and still operational. Any more cracks? ........... Try, please TRY to get on the Article SUBJECT, Jimmie. The subject is Bringing Youth Into Amateur Radio. What youth have YOU enticed into ham radio? Did they actually enter after you LECTURED them using mixed-up timeline "history" cribs? I haven't enticed any youth into amateur radio. I've enticed two younger people to enter the electronics industry and both did, are still working in it. But, as you keep reminding everyone, I am a "newcomer" to amateur radio and therefore can't possibly know anything. <shrug> I'm acquainted with a sizeable number of non-radio people, including some under 18 years of age. I can understand a bit better what the general group of young people prefer, see it reflected in the marketplace and advertising, with less bias than the average parent can. In general those younger people want to do what intrigues them, are not enthused by the same things that enticed a fifty-something ham 40 years ago. Yet, fifty-something (and older) marketing people CAN get them enthused. There's a lesson to be learned in that, subliminal perhaps, but what Don Keith, N4KC, alluded to in his message. Don IS in marketing. One HAS to see into young people's minds, not force them in with what YOU think they should know. Certainly NOT with what was written by the ARRL a half century ago. Len, AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' ... Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably." You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that. CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC. And for the first few years, 11 meter CB wasn't too bad. CB users followed the rules and enjoyed their radios. After all, the FCC had set up the rules and would enforce them - right? But by the late 1960s, some CBers were simply ignoring the FCC rules. They'd run illegal high power to big antennas, contact distant stations, intentionally interfere with others, etc. They began to adopt "handles" (pseudonyms) and use phony accents to hide their real identities. Many simply didn't bother with licenses at all. Before long, the rules-following CB users were completely outnumbered, and soon disappeared. FCC finally gave up trying to license cb users completely. The oil crises of the 1970s, and the resulting 55 mph speed limit, were a major promotion for cb in the 1970s. CB became a way for truckers and others to avoid law enforcement officers and the speed limit, to the point that movies were made glorifying this aspect of CB. What really bothered many hams was the fact that these antics were not confined to the 23 channels of 11 meters. The use of illegal and often poorly-designed-and-operated high power amplifiers by cb users resulted in TV interference and other RFI problems. These problems were often blamed on hams with perfectly clean and legal transmitters, because the hams were easily located, identified themselves on the air and were known to FCC. To add to the mess, some CB users modified their radios to operate outside the legal CB channels, invading the allocations of other radio services near 27 MHz, including the 10 meter ham band. This sort of activity, called "HFing" or "freebanding", became so prevalent that in 1978 FCC passed regulations against the sale of various forms of RF power amplifiers. These regulations had little effect on the illegals, though. In the 1970s, the EIA (a manufacturer's group) petitioned FCC to reallocate the 220 MHz ham band to a new "Class E" CB service, using FM on many more channels. Both 11 meter CB users and hams opposed this, for obvious reasons. (The hams didn't want to lose another band while the CB users didn't want to have to replace practically their entire setups, and give up much of the long-distance capabilities of 11 meters). This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them. Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era. The ironic thing is that, when CB had licenses, there was a minimum-age requirement for the license. 15 years of age, IIRC. You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-10-31 AB7E posted on October 30, 2008: "If 30 years ago you had the choice between a hobby that mostly just allowed you to talk into a mic (or tap out CW) when the band was open (and only to those who had licenses) and required you to have a bunch of different unique hardware (including outdoor antennas that upset the neighbors), versus being able to speak with all of your friends anytime with a cellphone smaller than your wallet or play interactive games online with stunning graphics (on a piece of hardware you already have and complete with free group voice chat) anytime with anyone anywhere in the world ... which would you have chosen?? I sincerely doubt it would have been ham radio." In all honesty I have to agree with that. Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' Before that end-of-the-1950s period the 'radio' interest had been with 'Hi-Fi' and the excellence of recordings on long-play vinyl grooved discs, then stereo tape, and finally, the beginning of widespread stereo FM broadcasting. ............. AB7E: "And of course this has nothing to do with the "laziness" or "immediate gratification" grumpy old men (ham radio is full of them) like to attribute to youngsters. Check out how many retired folks of both sexes are active participants in World of Warcraft or Second Life ... they dwarf late-in-life recruits to ham radio by orders of magnitude." I don't doubt it. Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably. In the next semi-niche hobby, personal computers, the BBS was born in the late 1970s and brought together a way-wider group of social interacters. BBSers who interacted in-person as well as on the phone lines with computer-modems were more homogenous representatives of the population. Few were radio-active but all were eager to try out this brand new medium of communications. In urban areas this kept on expanding until the Internet went public in 1991 and provided the first widespread international communications participation by computer-modem. In the 1980s the computer hobbyist community was rivaling amateur radio numbers, having more special-interest independent computer hobbyist magazines than were published in the USA at the time. By 1990 the cell phone was becoming smaller and less expensive and growing all over the country. In a decade it would become so small and so numerous that one in ten Americans were cell phone subscribers. By 2004 one in three Americans had cell phone subscriptions; teen-agers were able to use them to interact with other teeners and the 'texting' craze had begun. Why not? The price was far lower than portable ham gear, could be carried in a shirt pocket or small purse and used much without racking up a sizeable phone bill. ............ AB7E: "I would gladly try to mentor anyone who showed a budding interest in ham radio, but I don't see the point in trying to be an evangelist for the hobby." I would rather evangelize the electronics industry to younger people. It is far bigger than amateurism in radio and has FAR greater scope and variation on what it can do. It can also provide a very decent wage and be a fun job at the same time. Amateur radio is a niche hobby and the old-timers have managed to both stratify it and mummify it in old standards and practices suitable for long-past times. For younger people, the rationale that a ham license lets you "advance the state of the radio art and talk to foreign folk for 'free' on one's own station" is trite and dated. It might have worked in the 1960s but this is four decades (and two generations) later. For one thing it is definitely NOT 'free' since a decent station for HF is going to cost more than a complete PC set-up. For another, HF is NOT that reliable 24/7 and the average lower-power HF ham bands are at the mercy of the ionosphere. The only 'advancing the art' in HF radio is inside the radios and that technology has almost saturated. .............. AB7E: "Like NN4RH says, kids aren't idiots (or lazy when it comes to interesting things), and if they have any interest in what ham radio has to offer they will find it." Absolutely true. Based on my 'beginner, newbie' life experience over the last 76 years, EVERY old-generation curmudgeon gets all disgusted about the do-nothing younger generation. They just won't recognize that that THEY were once considered 'do-nothing' young wastrels by generation-older curmudgeons of their day. :-) I've read of the same attitudes prevalent in most societies over previous centuries...Pompeii curmudgeons were probably cussing THEIR do-nothing young folks just before Vesuvious blew its top and buried everyone. :-) .............. AB7E: "Most of this talk about enticing young folks into the hobby (and it is just a hobby ... it isn't the path to heaven) simply sounds to me like people in a niche activity looking for validation. Why else would you consider it to be important?" Much of the TALK is simply rationalization. On the other hand, if license numbers start to drop again and newcomers don't replace the usual human-attrition expirations, that WILL be noticed by commercial groups that might want to use ham bands for other purposes. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : AB7E on 2008-10-31 KE7UXE: "Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal." How do you figure? That isn't even remotely true. Not only is global internet voice chat full duplex, FM quality, real time, and free ... people can use it while collaborating in an online game, or while working together on a drawing or file, or while streaming music to each other. None of that is new, either ... it's been available for years from multiple sources. This is exactly what I mean. Hams lament that kids today are too lazy and disconnected with technology to discover ham radio, and the reality is that hams are too disconnected to understand the kinds of alternatives for kids that make ham radio merely a legacy curiosity for them. Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 "ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board." No it isn't...it is giving them friends to text who happen to be in Estonia, Spain and Japan. Sadly, for many the alure of ham radio is the gear. IMO it ought to be the opportunity to talk with a wide variety of people from all over the world. Ham radio is a social activity. That is what kids might like. If later they get interested in the equipment, so be it. Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal. Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| KC7MF | 2008-11-02 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| "AB7E prove me wrong and try to identify some function (communication, competition, intellectual discovery, social interaction, etc) that ham radio does better than computers, internet, or cell phones." Wrong question. First of all Amateur radio offers a different experience. Ask yourself this. Why do I like it? I have a computer and a cell phone. There is a mystery to sending a CQ and waiting for an answer. I can't get on a computer and go looking for someone wanting to talk to me except in a very limited context. Computers are very impersonal. It is extremely rare to cary on a conversation with a total stranger on the computer. I have spent years interacting with young people. It was my job to get to know them. They are all looking for a challenge. There are plenty of them who would like AR. "In 1988 there were 1,744,000 amateur stations worldwide; in 2000, the number had grown to 2,789,720, according to the International Radio Amateur Union." In the US there are 30,000 hams under 18. If youth are not entering this hobby fast enough here they sure are in other coutries. The pure fact is that I see very few people getting off of their duffs and looking to share the hobby with kids. Why don't we try asking a few of them. Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-11-02 N3OX replied on November 2, 2008: "The only thing that comes close is WiFi DXing, and that doesn't carry the promise of worldwide communication. I'll say it again. E-mailing Hong Kong? Boring. Working Hong Kong on 1.8MHz CW? Thrilling!" To YOU, no doubt. But, too many hams think that what THEY like is what everyone else will like. Doesn't work that way. Everyone is attracted to something but not to what a ham does, even if the ham thinks the world of his hobby. ............ "Don't totally discount the appeal of ham radio because we have other communications methods available." Good grief, there is a whole load of OTHER communications methods today. HF ham radio hasn't changed much at all (other than the hardware) in a half century. Do you think high-schoolers would be interested in listening to 33 1/3 RPM disc records for music (any kind)? I doubt it. An IPod can store just about every LP album I have at the low-end 8 GB storage model (I won one in an online survey, cost me nothing). CDs can be played back through a computer, then loaded into the mobile pod. Videos can be seen on cable TV, usually for free as part of the service. For all the old-timer ham snarking about "texting," you have to understand that its THEIR thing and they can, for a while, get rid of the bossy grown-ups who can (usually) get them riled up when interrupting discussing things in private with their friends. Three years ago the Census Bureau reported that one in three Americans had a cell phone subscription. A hundred million cell phone users is far greater than five million or so CBs on the roads, and that is more than all the US hams put together. ............ N3OX: "Ham radio allows me to contact the other guy with no middleman, sometimes in surprising ways. It's the only game in town for that. That doesn't necessarily appeal to a normal high schooler, but it never did ;-)" I don't think one has to be an "abnormal" teenager to get appeal for old-time hobbies. Understand that teeners are looking for PEER ACCEPTANCE, "normal" or "weird." Such acceptance is an individual struggle and most begin that very anxiety-prone time only through self-experience. They want to communicate first to their peers. To work at getting any teener interested means you have to understand how the teener feels first, then you can work on your sales pitch. ........... N3OX: "But that doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to some younger people. Just don't tune the radio to 75m phone when you have the boy scouts over to your shack. Tune across some weak, fluttery UA0's fading in and out of the noise on 20m CW and explain how you're listening to Siberia with no intervening wires. You'll occasionally hook someone that way." Poor choice. No matter how much YOU think that "working weak signals" with CW is wonderful, most folks, young, old, or in-between, don't "take" to CW immediately. They usually don't "read" it and it it isn't understandable to "civilians." When you go into that thousand-yard stare trying to copy that weak signal, observers think you go into some kind of trance, losing touch will all those around you. Maybe, just maybe, the NOVELTY will keep them looking and listening. To teeners, almost everything in life is new and most (if not all) are busy absorbing all kinds of things, not just the kindly old guy with Siberian signals coming and going. DO NOT mistake ordinary, momentary curiosity as "instantly being attracted to CW" or anything else about amateur radio operating. You have to be understanding and respectful enough to forge a link between what you are doing and them. On top of that you have to have enough sensitivity in judging them and their responses to see if you've really reached into their minds deeper than just lecturing. It's a little bit like story-telling where you must keep them attentive to what you are saying. But, showing directly and in enough ways that they can comprehend, you can give them a feeling into a real world. Strangers to amateur radio might be better shown by tuning through SW BC bands, particularly on the hour and half hour when many stations give their ID in several languages. Canadian BC stations give their ID in both English and French and "Ici raddio Cana-da" is almost as easy to recognize as the English "This is Radio Canada." On a more local scene, an arranged link up on VHF or UHF can have the mobile ops describe where they are and what they are doing and can be heard by all on voice. With their cooperation, the VHF or UHF operators could talk with visitors who only need instruction in the PTT, to press when talking, release to listen. Simple stuff that they can do and get an enormous boost from hands-on participation. THEY got ON the radio, themselves, not just listening to some stranger they stood behind. Minor acts like brief third-party operating can have an affect on how they perceive this ham radio stuff. For a good final act to a demo is having one mobile ham show up right after. Those in on the demo can recognize the op's voice and get a stronger impression...there he/she is in-person! :-) 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N3OX on 2008-11-02 "Prove me wrong and try to identify some function (communication, competition, intellectual discovery, social interaction, etc) that ham radio does better than computers, internet, or cell phones." Physical-layer-level, infrastructure free wireless experimentation. The only thing that comes close is WiFi DXing, and that doesn't carry the promise of worldwide communication. I'll say it again. E-mailing Hong Kong? Boring. Working Hong Kong on 1.8MHz CW? Thrilling! Don't totally discount the appeal of ham radio because we have other communications methods available. Ham radio allows me to contact the other guy with no middleman, sometimes in surprising ways. It's the only game in town for that. That doesn't necessarily appeal to a normal high schooler, but it never did ;-) But that doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to some younger people. Just don't tune the radio to 75m phone when you have the boy scouts over to your shack. Tune across some weak, fluttery UA0's fading in and out of the noise on 20m CW and explain how you're listening to Siberia with no intervening wires. You'll occasionally hook someone that way. I stayed up late winter nights ten years ago as an 18 year old ham, logged into the #CQDX IRC chat while tuning around 40m CW. Trust me, the ZL's I ran into on the air were a totally different thing than the ZL's I ran into on the internet, and there's a small segment of any young population who will understand that. Look for the weird kids, demonstrate some DX CW to them, they'll be interested. The average, popular high school kid has to get through college probably before they'll let their inner weird kid come out. You have to wait a little longer for them. 73 Dan Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-11-02 N2EY trotted out his "radio history for dummies" notebook, poison pen, and wrote: "You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that." Not by your personal experience. When 11m CB was created in 1958 you were about 5 years old. You had NO personal experience with the first five years of 11m CB. I did and millions of others did. You are only 'reporting' what you've seen on ham radio forums in the last two decades or so. .......... N2EY: "CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC." What something was "meant for" and ACTUAL USE can differ widely. In the first 5 years of 11m CB, the ACTUAL USE was for "personal communications," particularly in urban areas. What was unusual was that the average CB-er of that time was in the thirty-something age group, NOT youth. Contrary to politically-correct ham opinion, there was little REAL policing of CB by the FCC, there was NO widespread "shooting skip" and the "high power" CB amplifiers were extremely rare. That would continue for the next decade when the off-shore radio makers entered the market. Nearly ALL CB users were CASUAL users, except the truckers found that it was an excellent way to break the boredom of driving for hours on end. The only REAL "high power" users were those who bought General Radiotelephone transceivers, made in nearby Burbank, CA. "General" used a TV horizontal sweep tube for a final and had a built-in jumper to "allow high power operation when the FCC approves of that." The "high power" was about 25 to 30 W peak RF but still with down-modulation. Many who bought a General around here immediately did the jumper change or asked someone to do it for them. I never did that, Jimmie, don't start in with your usual accusatory allusions. General Radiotelephone didn't make it into big-time CB sales and tried to get into business radio. They moved from their second-floor Hq and assembly area on Burbank Boulevard some time in the late 1960s and might still be around somewhere in L.A. What is interesting is that General liked to brag about their partly-completed tower (for the future) but never completed it. That initial construction is still standing on the roof of their original business building. A post-production sound editing firm occupies the second floor now. While assembly was 100% done by workers on-site (all point-to-point hand wiring), components were the cheapest available. Esthetically, the exterior designs must have been conceived by color-blind elders without a trace of artistic sense. What got the Electronic Industries Association (EIA) in a dither was the flood of off-shore designed-and-made 11m CB sets in the 1960s. You don't realize that because you saw so little of it first-hand that nearly every USA radio maker had at least one 11m CB transceiver in their product line in the 1960s. All of those are long GONE and everything of what is left is made off-shore now. The "lack of popularity" came about simply because the market (largely supported by truckers) SATURATED. Saturation to the point of new sets just replacing old ones. Prompting/lobbying for more channels came about from manufacturing groups wanting to increase their edge in an already-dwindling market. Forty channels with dozens of users for each one in an urban area just isn't enough, even when some set designs used SSB techniques to break through. The EIA and other industry associations were trying to fight the flood of imports in the 1960s and into the 1970s. Some manufacturers bowed to the inevitable. An example is RCA Corporation announcing that all of their black-and-white TV models would be made off-shore from about 1973 and after (year approximate based on memories of then while working for RCA EASD in Van Nuys, CA; RCA TV division was in Indianapolis, IN). Today I think that ALL new TV receivers on the consumer market in the USA are made off-shore. ............... N2EY: "This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them." Sonny, all you've done is to keep alive the old-timer ham hatred and bigotry of CB that started when you were about 5 years old. You have NO first-hand experience in that and all you are doing is repeating what you've read on amateur radio forums. For example: N2EY: "Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era." You have a very mixed-up timeline. The CB market saturated a quarter century ago. Cellular telephony installations increased in earnest in the 1990s, can be seen today all along major highways of the USA. The Internet went public in 1991 but took about four years to make enough steam to really roll out. Had you ever been OUT on the highways of the USA any time from the 1970s to the present you would have experienced - first hand - that there are FEW who bother driving at ANY posted speed limit. Truckers have continued to cruise at 70 MPH despite any "ban" on maximum speed at any time. That is said NOT to condone such behavior, simply reporting what is atually done, as observed first-hand, ON the highways. Following your pattern of messaging, you will now come back with a LECTURE on driving, safe speeds, etc. Give up the lecturing, Jimmie. ............ N2EY: "You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it?" Wrong again. Not past tense. My E.F.Johnson Viking Messenger (bought at Henry Radio in Los Angeles in early 1958) is gathering dust on a shelf in the workshop. So is a Bendix Marine Division tube type made OEM by some other firm (half-price sale by a Bendix rep friend). They might still work. Old designs, needed crystal control on each channel, both Rx and Tx. Vibrator HV supply in both, NOT reliable, never were for mobile radios. Nobody wants such things now. Based on contemporary CB transceivers of the time, BOTH are average size, not "miniaturized." I am not "miniaturized" either and still operational. Any more cracks? ........... Try, please TRY to get on the Article SUBJECT, Jimmie. The subject is Bringing Youth Into Amateur Radio. What youth have YOU enticed into ham radio? Did they actually enter after you LECTURED them using mixed-up timeline "history" cribs? I haven't enticed any youth into amateur radio. I've enticed two younger people to enter the electronics industry and both did, are still working in it. But, as you keep reminding everyone, I am a "newcomer" to amateur radio and therefore can't possibly know anything. <shrug> I'm acquainted with a sizeable number of non-radio people, including some under 18 years of age. I can understand a bit better what the general group of young people prefer, see it reflected in the marketplace and advertising, with less bias than the average parent can. In general those younger people want to do what intrigues them, are not enthused by the same things that enticed a fifty-something ham 40 years ago. Yet, fifty-something (and older) marketing people CAN get them enthused. There's a lesson to be learned in that, subliminal perhaps, but what Don Keith, N4KC, alluded to in his message. Don IS in marketing. One HAS to see into young people's minds, not force them in with what YOU think they should know. Certainly NOT with what was written by the ARRL a half century ago. Len, AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' ... Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably." You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that. CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC. And for the first few years, 11 meter CB wasn't too bad. CB users followed the rules and enjoyed their radios. After all, the FCC had set up the rules and would enforce them - right? But by the late 1960s, some CBers were simply ignoring the FCC rules. They'd run illegal high power to big antennas, contact distant stations, intentionally interfere with others, etc. They began to adopt "handles" (pseudonyms) and use phony accents to hide their real identities. Many simply didn't bother with licenses at all. Before long, the rules-following CB users were completely outnumbered, and soon disappeared. FCC finally gave up trying to license cb users completely. The oil crises of the 1970s, and the resulting 55 mph speed limit, were a major promotion for cb in the 1970s. CB became a way for truckers and others to avoid law enforcement officers and the speed limit, to the point that movies were made glorifying this aspect of CB. What really bothered many hams was the fact that these antics were not confined to the 23 channels of 11 meters. The use of illegal and often poorly-designed-and-operated high power amplifiers by cb users resulted in TV interference and other RFI problems. These problems were often blamed on hams with perfectly clean and legal transmitters, because the hams were easily located, identified themselves on the air and were known to FCC. To add to the mess, some CB users modified their radios to operate outside the legal CB channels, invading the allocations of other radio services near 27 MHz, including the 10 meter ham band. This sort of activity, called "HFing" or "freebanding", became so prevalent that in 1978 FCC passed regulations against the sale of various forms of RF power amplifiers. These regulations had little effect on the illegals, though. In the 1970s, the EIA (a manufacturer's group) petitioned FCC to reallocate the 220 MHz ham band to a new "Class E" CB service, using FM on many more channels. Both 11 meter CB users and hams opposed this, for obvious reasons. (The hams didn't want to lose another band while the CB users didn't want to have to replace practically their entire setups, and give up much of the long-distance capabilities of 11 meters). This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them. Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era. The ironic thing is that, when CB had licenses, there was a minimum-age requirement for the license. 15 years of age, IIRC. You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-10-31 AB7E posted on October 30, 2008: "If 30 years ago you had the choice between a hobby that mostly just allowed you to talk into a mic (or tap out CW) when the band was open (and only to those who had licenses) and required you to have a bunch of different unique hardware (including outdoor antennas that upset the neighbors), versus being able to speak with all of your friends anytime with a cellphone smaller than your wallet or play interactive games online with stunning graphics (on a piece of hardware you already have and complete with free group voice chat) anytime with anyone anywhere in the world ... which would you have chosen?? I sincerely doubt it would have been ham radio." In all honesty I have to agree with that. Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' Before that end-of-the-1950s period the 'radio' interest had been with 'Hi-Fi' and the excellence of recordings on long-play vinyl grooved discs, then stereo tape, and finally, the beginning of widespread stereo FM broadcasting. ............. AB7E: "And of course this has nothing to do with the "laziness" or "immediate gratification" grumpy old men (ham radio is full of them) like to attribute to youngsters. Check out how many retired folks of both sexes are active participants in World of Warcraft or Second Life ... they dwarf late-in-life recruits to ham radio by orders of magnitude." I don't doubt it. Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably. In the next semi-niche hobby, personal computers, the BBS was born in the late 1970s and brought together a way-wider group of social interacters. BBSers who interacted in-person as well as on the phone lines with computer-modems were more homogenous representatives of the population. Few were radio-active but all were eager to try out this brand new medium of communications. In urban areas this kept on expanding until the Internet went public in 1991 and provided the first widespread international communications participation by computer-modem. In the 1980s the computer hobbyist community was rivaling amateur radio numbers, having more special-interest independent computer hobbyist magazines than were published in the USA at the time. By 1990 the cell phone was becoming smaller and less expensive and growing all over the country. In a decade it would become so small and so numerous that one in ten Americans were cell phone subscribers. By 2004 one in three Americans had cell phone subscriptions; teen-agers were able to use them to interact with other teeners and the 'texting' craze had begun. Why not? The price was far lower than portable ham gear, could be carried in a shirt pocket or small purse and used much without racking up a sizeable phone bill. ............ AB7E: "I would gladly try to mentor anyone who showed a budding interest in ham radio, but I don't see the point in trying to be an evangelist for the hobby." I would rather evangelize the electronics industry to younger people. It is far bigger than amateurism in radio and has FAR greater scope and variation on what it can do. It can also provide a very decent wage and be a fun job at the same time. Amateur radio is a niche hobby and the old-timers have managed to both stratify it and mummify it in old standards and practices suitable for long-past times. For younger people, the rationale that a ham license lets you "advance the state of the radio art and talk to foreign folk for 'free' on one's own station" is trite and dated. It might have worked in the 1960s but this is four decades (and two generations) later. For one thing it is definitely NOT 'free' since a decent station for HF is going to cost more than a complete PC set-up. For another, HF is NOT that reliable 24/7 and the average lower-power HF ham bands are at the mercy of the ionosphere. The only 'advancing the art' in HF radio is inside the radios and that technology has almost saturated. .............. AB7E: "Like NN4RH says, kids aren't idiots (or lazy when it comes to interesting things), and if they have any interest in what ham radio has to offer they will find it." Absolutely true. Based on my 'beginner, newbie' life experience over the last 76 years, EVERY old-generation curmudgeon gets all disgusted about the do-nothing younger generation. They just won't recognize that that THEY were once considered 'do-nothing' young wastrels by generation-older curmudgeons of their day. :-) I've read of the same attitudes prevalent in most societies over previous centuries...Pompeii curmudgeons were probably cussing THEIR do-nothing young folks just before Vesuvious blew its top and buried everyone. :-) .............. AB7E: "Most of this talk about enticing young folks into the hobby (and it is just a hobby ... it isn't the path to heaven) simply sounds to me like people in a niche activity looking for validation. Why else would you consider it to be important?" Much of the TALK is simply rationalization. On the other hand, if license numbers start to drop again and newcomers don't replace the usual human-attrition expirations, that WILL be noticed by commercial groups that might want to use ham bands for other purposes. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : AB7E on 2008-10-31 KE7UXE: "Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal." How do you figure? That isn't even remotely true. Not only is global internet voice chat full duplex, FM quality, real time, and free ... people can use it while collaborating in an online game, or while working together on a drawing or file, or while streaming music to each other. None of that is new, either ... it's been available for years from multiple sources. This is exactly what I mean. Hams lament that kids today are too lazy and disconnected with technology to discover ham radio, and the reality is that hams are too disconnected to understand the kinds of alternatives for kids that make ham radio merely a legacy curiosity for them. Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 "ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board." No it isn't...it is giving them friends to text who happen to be in Estonia, Spain and Japan. Sadly, for many the alure of ham radio is the gear. IMO it ought to be the opportunity to talk with a wide variety of people from all over the world. Ham radio is a social activity. That is what kids might like. If later they get interested in the equipment, so be it. Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal. Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| K6LHA | 2008-11-02 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| N3OX replied on November 2, 2008: "The only thing that comes close is WiFi DXing, and that doesn't carry the promise of worldwide communication. I'll say it again. E-mailing Hong Kong? Boring. Working Hong Kong on 1.8MHz CW? Thrilling!" To YOU, no doubt. But, too many hams think that what THEY like is what everyone else will like. Doesn't work that way. Everyone is attracted to something but not to what a ham does, even if the ham thinks the world of his hobby. ............ "Don't totally discount the appeal of ham radio because we have other communications methods available." Good grief, there is a whole load of OTHER communications methods today. HF ham radio hasn't changed much at all (other than the hardware) in a half century. Do you think high-schoolers would be interested in listening to 33 1/3 RPM disc records for music (any kind)? I doubt it. An IPod can store just about every LP album I have at the low-end 8 GB storage model (I won one in an online survey, cost me nothing). CDs can be played back through a computer, then loaded into the mobile pod. Videos can be seen on cable TV, usually for free as part of the service. For all the old-timer ham snarking about "texting," you have to understand that its THEIR thing and they can, for a while, get rid of the bossy grown-ups who can (usually) get them riled up when interrupting discussing things in private with their friends. Three years ago the Census Bureau reported that one in three Americans had a cell phone subscription. A hundred million cell phone users is far greater than five million or so CBs on the roads, and that is more than all the US hams put together. ............ N3OX: "Ham radio allows me to contact the other guy with no middleman, sometimes in surprising ways. It's the only game in town for that. That doesn't necessarily appeal to a normal high schooler, but it never did ;-)" I don't think one has to be an "abnormal" teenager to get appeal for old-time hobbies. Understand that teeners are looking for PEER ACCEPTANCE, "normal" or "weird." Such acceptance is an individual struggle and most begin that very anxiety-prone time only through self-experience. They want to communicate first to their peers. To work at getting any teener interested means you have to understand how the teener feels first, then you can work on your sales pitch. ........... N3OX: "But that doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to some younger people. Just don't tune the radio to 75m phone when you have the boy scouts over to your shack. Tune across some weak, fluttery UA0's fading in and out of the noise on 20m CW and explain how you're listening to Siberia with no intervening wires. You'll occasionally hook someone that way." Poor choice. No matter how much YOU think that "working weak signals" with CW is wonderful, most folks, young, old, or in-between, don't "take" to CW immediately. They usually don't "read" it and it it isn't understandable to "civilians." When you go into that thousand-yard stare trying to copy that weak signal, observers think you go into some kind of trance, losing touch will all those around you. Maybe, just maybe, the NOVELTY will keep them looking and listening. To teeners, almost everything in life is new and most (if not all) are busy absorbing all kinds of things, not just the kindly old guy with Siberian signals coming and going. DO NOT mistake ordinary, momentary curiosity as "instantly being attracted to CW" or anything else about amateur radio operating. You have to be understanding and respectful enough to forge a link between what you are doing and them. On top of that you have to have enough sensitivity in judging them and their responses to see if you've really reached into their minds deeper than just lecturing. It's a little bit like story-telling where you must keep them attentive to what you are saying. But, showing directly and in enough ways that they can comprehend, you can give them a feeling into a real world. Strangers to amateur radio might be better shown by tuning through SW BC bands, particularly on the hour and half hour when many stations give their ID in several languages. Canadian BC stations give their ID in both English and French and "Ici raddio Cana-da" is almost as easy to recognize as the English "This is Radio Canada." On a more local scene, an arranged link up on VHF or UHF can have the mobile ops describe where they are and what they are doing and can be heard by all on voice. With their cooperation, the VHF or UHF operators could talk with visitors who only need instruction in the PTT, to press when talking, release to listen. Simple stuff that they can do and get an enormous boost from hands-on participation. THEY got ON the radio, themselves, not just listening to some stranger they stood behind. Minor acts like brief third-party operating can have an affect on how they perceive this ham radio stuff. For a good final act to a demo is having one mobile ham show up right after. Those in on the demo can recognize the op's voice and get a stronger impression...there he/she is in-person! :-) 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N3OX on 2008-11-02 "Prove me wrong and try to identify some function (communication, competition, intellectual discovery, social interaction, etc) that ham radio does better than computers, internet, or cell phones." Physical-layer-level, infrastructure free wireless experimentation. The only thing that comes close is WiFi DXing, and that doesn't carry the promise of worldwide communication. I'll say it again. E-mailing Hong Kong? Boring. Working Hong Kong on 1.8MHz CW? Thrilling! Don't totally discount the appeal of ham radio because we have other communications methods available. Ham radio allows me to contact the other guy with no middleman, sometimes in surprising ways. It's the only game in town for that. That doesn't necessarily appeal to a normal high schooler, but it never did ;-) But that doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to some younger people. Just don't tune the radio to 75m phone when you have the boy scouts over to your shack. Tune across some weak, fluttery UA0's fading in and out of the noise on 20m CW and explain how you're listening to Siberia with no intervening wires. You'll occasionally hook someone that way. I stayed up late winter nights ten years ago as an 18 year old ham, logged into the #CQDX IRC chat while tuning around 40m CW. Trust me, the ZL's I ran into on the air were a totally different thing than the ZL's I ran into on the internet, and there's a small segment of any young population who will understand that. Look for the weird kids, demonstrate some DX CW to them, they'll be interested. The average, popular high school kid has to get through college probably before they'll let their inner weird kid come out. You have to wait a little longer for them. 73 Dan Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-11-02 N2EY trotted out his "radio history for dummies" notebook, poison pen, and wrote: "You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that." Not by your personal experience. When 11m CB was created in 1958 you were about 5 years old. You had NO personal experience with the first five years of 11m CB. I did and millions of others did. You are only 'reporting' what you've seen on ham radio forums in the last two decades or so. .......... N2EY: "CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC." What something was "meant for" and ACTUAL USE can differ widely. In the first 5 years of 11m CB, the ACTUAL USE was for "personal communications," particularly in urban areas. What was unusual was that the average CB-er of that time was in the thirty-something age group, NOT youth. Contrary to politically-correct ham opinion, there was little REAL policing of CB by the FCC, there was NO widespread "shooting skip" and the "high power" CB amplifiers were extremely rare. That would continue for the next decade when the off-shore radio makers entered the market. Nearly ALL CB users were CASUAL users, except the truckers found that it was an excellent way to break the boredom of driving for hours on end. The only REAL "high power" users were those who bought General Radiotelephone transceivers, made in nearby Burbank, CA. "General" used a TV horizontal sweep tube for a final and had a built-in jumper to "allow high power operation when the FCC approves of that." The "high power" was about 25 to 30 W peak RF but still with down-modulation. Many who bought a General around here immediately did the jumper change or asked someone to do it for them. I never did that, Jimmie, don't start in with your usual accusatory allusions. General Radiotelephone didn't make it into big-time CB sales and tried to get into business radio. They moved from their second-floor Hq and assembly area on Burbank Boulevard some time in the late 1960s and might still be around somewhere in L.A. What is interesting is that General liked to brag about their partly-completed tower (for the future) but never completed it. That initial construction is still standing on the roof of their original business building. A post-production sound editing firm occupies the second floor now. While assembly was 100% done by workers on-site (all point-to-point hand wiring), components were the cheapest available. Esthetically, the exterior designs must have been conceived by color-blind elders without a trace of artistic sense. What got the Electronic Industries Association (EIA) in a dither was the flood of off-shore designed-and-made 11m CB sets in the 1960s. You don't realize that because you saw so little of it first-hand that nearly every USA radio maker had at least one 11m CB transceiver in their product line in the 1960s. All of those are long GONE and everything of what is left is made off-shore now. The "lack of popularity" came about simply because the market (largely supported by truckers) SATURATED. Saturation to the point of new sets just replacing old ones. Prompting/lobbying for more channels came about from manufacturing groups wanting to increase their edge in an already-dwindling market. Forty channels with dozens of users for each one in an urban area just isn't enough, even when some set designs used SSB techniques to break through. The EIA and other industry associations were trying to fight the flood of imports in the 1960s and into the 1970s. Some manufacturers bowed to the inevitable. An example is RCA Corporation announcing that all of their black-and-white TV models would be made off-shore from about 1973 and after (year approximate based on memories of then while working for RCA EASD in Van Nuys, CA; RCA TV division was in Indianapolis, IN). Today I think that ALL new TV receivers on the consumer market in the USA are made off-shore. ............... N2EY: "This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them." Sonny, all you've done is to keep alive the old-timer ham hatred and bigotry of CB that started when you were about 5 years old. You have NO first-hand experience in that and all you are doing is repeating what you've read on amateur radio forums. For example: N2EY: "Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era." You have a very mixed-up timeline. The CB market saturated a quarter century ago. Cellular telephony installations increased in earnest in the 1990s, can be seen today all along major highways of the USA. The Internet went public in 1991 but took about four years to make enough steam to really roll out. Had you ever been OUT on the highways of the USA any time from the 1970s to the present you would have experienced - first hand - that there are FEW who bother driving at ANY posted speed limit. Truckers have continued to cruise at 70 MPH despite any "ban" on maximum speed at any time. That is said NOT to condone such behavior, simply reporting what is atually done, as observed first-hand, ON the highways. Following your pattern of messaging, you will now come back with a LECTURE on driving, safe speeds, etc. Give up the lecturing, Jimmie. ............ N2EY: "You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it?" Wrong again. Not past tense. My E.F.Johnson Viking Messenger (bought at Henry Radio in Los Angeles in early 1958) is gathering dust on a shelf in the workshop. So is a Bendix Marine Division tube type made OEM by some other firm (half-price sale by a Bendix rep friend). They might still work. Old designs, needed crystal control on each channel, both Rx and Tx. Vibrator HV supply in both, NOT reliable, never were for mobile radios. Nobody wants such things now. Based on contemporary CB transceivers of the time, BOTH are average size, not "miniaturized." I am not "miniaturized" either and still operational. Any more cracks? ........... Try, please TRY to get on the Article SUBJECT, Jimmie. The subject is Bringing Youth Into Amateur Radio. What youth have YOU enticed into ham radio? Did they actually enter after you LECTURED them using mixed-up timeline "history" cribs? I haven't enticed any youth into amateur radio. I've enticed two younger people to enter the electronics industry and both did, are still working in it. But, as you keep reminding everyone, I am a "newcomer" to amateur radio and therefore can't possibly know anything. <shrug> I'm acquainted with a sizeable number of non-radio people, including some under 18 years of age. I can understand a bit better what the general group of young people prefer, see it reflected in the marketplace and advertising, with less bias than the average parent can. In general those younger people want to do what intrigues them, are not enthused by the same things that enticed a fifty-something ham 40 years ago. Yet, fifty-something (and older) marketing people CAN get them enthused. There's a lesson to be learned in that, subliminal perhaps, but what Don Keith, N4KC, alluded to in his message. Don IS in marketing. One HAS to see into young people's minds, not force them in with what YOU think they should know. Certainly NOT with what was written by the ARRL a half century ago. Len, AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' ... Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably." You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that. CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC. And for the first few years, 11 meter CB wasn't too bad. CB users followed the rules and enjoyed their radios. After all, the FCC had set up the rules and would enforce them - right? But by the late 1960s, some CBers were simply ignoring the FCC rules. They'd run illegal high power to big antennas, contact distant stations, intentionally interfere with others, etc. They began to adopt "handles" (pseudonyms) and use phony accents to hide their real identities. Many simply didn't bother with licenses at all. Before long, the rules-following CB users were completely outnumbered, and soon disappeared. FCC finally gave up trying to license cb users completely. The oil crises of the 1970s, and the resulting 55 mph speed limit, were a major promotion for cb in the 1970s. CB became a way for truckers and others to avoid law enforcement officers and the speed limit, to the point that movies were made glorifying this aspect of CB. What really bothered many hams was the fact that these antics were not confined to the 23 channels of 11 meters. The use of illegal and often poorly-designed-and-operated high power amplifiers by cb users resulted in TV interference and other RFI problems. These problems were often blamed on hams with perfectly clean and legal transmitters, because the hams were easily located, identified themselves on the air and were known to FCC. To add to the mess, some CB users modified their radios to operate outside the legal CB channels, invading the allocations of other radio services near 27 MHz, including the 10 meter ham band. This sort of activity, called "HFing" or "freebanding", became so prevalent that in 1978 FCC passed regulations against the sale of various forms of RF power amplifiers. These regulations had little effect on the illegals, though. In the 1970s, the EIA (a manufacturer's group) petitioned FCC to reallocate the 220 MHz ham band to a new "Class E" CB service, using FM on many more channels. Both 11 meter CB users and hams opposed this, for obvious reasons. (The hams didn't want to lose another band while the CB users didn't want to have to replace practically their entire setups, and give up much of the long-distance capabilities of 11 meters). This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them. Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era. The ironic thing is that, when CB had licenses, there was a minimum-age requirement for the license. 15 years of age, IIRC. You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-10-31 AB7E posted on October 30, 2008: "If 30 years ago you had the choice between a hobby that mostly just allowed you to talk into a mic (or tap out CW) when the band was open (and only to those who had licenses) and required you to have a bunch of different unique hardware (including outdoor antennas that upset the neighbors), versus being able to speak with all of your friends anytime with a cellphone smaller than your wallet or play interactive games online with stunning graphics (on a piece of hardware you already have and complete with free group voice chat) anytime with anyone anywhere in the world ... which would you have chosen?? I sincerely doubt it would have been ham radio." In all honesty I have to agree with that. Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' Before that end-of-the-1950s period the 'radio' interest had been with 'Hi-Fi' and the excellence of recordings on long-play vinyl grooved discs, then stereo tape, and finally, the beginning of widespread stereo FM broadcasting. ............. AB7E: "And of course this has nothing to do with the "laziness" or "immediate gratification" grumpy old men (ham radio is full of them) like to attribute to youngsters. Check out how many retired folks of both sexes are active participants in World of Warcraft or Second Life ... they dwarf late-in-life recruits to ham radio by orders of magnitude." I don't doubt it. Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably. In the next semi-niche hobby, personal computers, the BBS was born in the late 1970s and brought together a way-wider group of social interacters. BBSers who interacted in-person as well as on the phone lines with computer-modems were more homogenous representatives of the population. Few were radio-active but all were eager to try out this brand new medium of communications. In urban areas this kept on expanding until the Internet went public in 1991 and provided the first widespread international communications participation by computer-modem. In the 1980s the computer hobbyist community was rivaling amateur radio numbers, having more special-interest independent computer hobbyist magazines than were published in the USA at the time. By 1990 the cell phone was becoming smaller and less expensive and growing all over the country. In a decade it would become so small and so numerous that one in ten Americans were cell phone subscribers. By 2004 one in three Americans had cell phone subscriptions; teen-agers were able to use them to interact with other teeners and the 'texting' craze had begun. Why not? The price was far lower than portable ham gear, could be carried in a shirt pocket or small purse and used much without racking up a sizeable phone bill. ............ AB7E: "I would gladly try to mentor anyone who showed a budding interest in ham radio, but I don't see the point in trying to be an evangelist for the hobby." I would rather evangelize the electronics industry to younger people. It is far bigger than amateurism in radio and has FAR greater scope and variation on what it can do. It can also provide a very decent wage and be a fun job at the same time. Amateur radio is a niche hobby and the old-timers have managed to both stratify it and mummify it in old standards and practices suitable for long-past times. For younger people, the rationale that a ham license lets you "advance the state of the radio art and talk to foreign folk for 'free' on one's own station" is trite and dated. It might have worked in the 1960s but this is four decades (and two generations) later. For one thing it is definitely NOT 'free' since a decent station for HF is going to cost more than a complete PC set-up. For another, HF is NOT that reliable 24/7 and the average lower-power HF ham bands are at the mercy of the ionosphere. The only 'advancing the art' in HF radio is inside the radios and that technology has almost saturated. .............. AB7E: "Like NN4RH says, kids aren't idiots (or lazy when it comes to interesting things), and if they have any interest in what ham radio has to offer they will find it." Absolutely true. Based on my 'beginner, newbie' life experience over the last 76 years, EVERY old-generation curmudgeon gets all disgusted about the do-nothing younger generation. They just won't recognize that that THEY were once considered 'do-nothing' young wastrels by generation-older curmudgeons of their day. :-) I've read of the same attitudes prevalent in most societies over previous centuries...Pompeii curmudgeons were probably cussing THEIR do-nothing young folks just before Vesuvious blew its top and buried everyone. :-) .............. AB7E: "Most of this talk about enticing young folks into the hobby (and it is just a hobby ... it isn't the path to heaven) simply sounds to me like people in a niche activity looking for validation. Why else would you consider it to be important?" Much of the TALK is simply rationalization. On the other hand, if license numbers start to drop again and newcomers don't replace the usual human-attrition expirations, that WILL be noticed by commercial groups that might want to use ham bands for other purposes. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : AB7E on 2008-10-31 KE7UXE: "Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal." How do you figure? That isn't even remotely true. Not only is global internet voice chat full duplex, FM quality, real time, and free ... people can use it while collaborating in an online game, or while working together on a drawing or file, or while streaming music to each other. None of that is new, either ... it's been available for years from multiple sources. This is exactly what I mean. Hams lament that kids today are too lazy and disconnected with technology to discover ham radio, and the reality is that hams are too disconnected to understand the kinds of alternatives for kids that make ham radio merely a legacy curiosity for them. Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 "ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board." No it isn't...it is giving them friends to text who happen to be in Estonia, Spain and Japan. Sadly, for many the alure of ham radio is the gear. IMO it ought to be the opportunity to talk with a wide variety of people from all over the world. Ham radio is a social activity. That is what kids might like. If later they get interested in the equipment, so be it. Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal. Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| AI2IA | 2008-11-02 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing anyone into amateur radio. | ||
| As I said: It's a case of getting youth all fired up with no place to go. Amateur radio is one big organic whole, not a bunch of separate activities glued together. Put it ALL together and watch it grow! Think of amateur radio as a "system" and you will not be very far from the real truth. | ||
| N3OX | 2008-11-02 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Show them the VE's and they will come! | ||
| "Get a few buddies and yourself to study and pass the tests to be VE's and rotate groups of three's for VE exams. " Also very important is to have some equipment available for lending to these new hams when they get licensed, or to have an easily accessible club station. It doesn't have to be fancy, but they need SOMETHING. Certainly if some 13 year old is fired up about the hobby, they can get a summer job mowing lawns and save birthday checks from grandma to buy their own HF rig someday. But initially, they'll be all licensed up with nowhere to go, trying to explain to their parents why they need $600 worth of allowance advances to try an archaic hobby. I was lucky when I was 15 ... my uncle who was a ham matched me dollar for dollar on a used HF rig another local ham was selling. I was also lucky that my parents let me put up whatever I wanted in the yard (we lived at the end of a dirt road with neighbors out of eyeshot. They didn't mind my ugly antennas. But long gone are the days when you could build a useful ham station out of a couple old TVs, and if you think adult hams who own their houses in CC&R communities are having trouble putting up their own antennas, what about the someone who has to convince their parents to let them break HOA rules? It's not hopeless, and a kid who decides they really like ham radio will deal with these issues, but one who has a license and nothing else might be a lost cause. 73 Dan Reply to a comment by : AI2IA on 2008-11-02 We've heard all the schemes to lure youth to ham radio ten thousand times over. Well and good! The same old but good ideas! But you need a follow on! You want to bring youth in? Does your club hold regularly scheduled VE exams? What? No? Then what good are all the old but good ideas to lure in youth? Get a few buddies and yourself to study and pass the tests to be VE's and rotate groups of three's for VE exams. Otherwise - It's a case of getting youth all fired up with no place to go. Amateur radio is one big organic whole, not a bunch of separate activities glued together. Put it all together and watch it grow! | ||
| AI2IA | 2008-11-02 | |
|---|---|---|
| Show them the VE's and they will come! | ||
| We've heard all the schemes to lure youth to ham radio ten thousand times over. Well and good! The same old but good ideas! But you need a follow on! You want to bring youth in? Does your club hold regularly scheduled VE exams? What? No? Then what good are all the old but good ideas to lure in youth? Get a few buddies and yourself to study and pass the tests to be VE's and rotate groups of three's for VE exams. Otherwise - It's a case of getting youth all fired up with no place to go. Amateur radio is one big organic whole, not a bunch of separate activities glued together. Put it all together and watch it grow! | ||
| PLANKEYE | 2008-11-02 | |
|---|---|---|
| HOW DO YOU KNOW DUDE? | ||
| How do you know who is gonna make a lasting impact? DUDE? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : AB7E on 2008-11-02 I agree with everything you say Dan, and I would happily help out any young person who wanted to get involved with ham radio. As you say, though, it is a very small percentage of kids who would be interested in what we do beyond mere curiosity, and while it is worthwhile trying to capture every one of them, they won't make much of a lasting impact on the ham population. I make a point of checking out the pictures that get published in the magazines and on the internet for every event I hear about, and it doesn't take a rocket surgeon (line stolen from the Kath and Kim TV show) to see the shifting demographics of our hobby. 73, Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : N3OX on 2008-11-02 "Prove me wrong and try to identify some function (communication, competition, intellectual discovery, social interaction, etc) that ham radio does better than computers, internet, or cell phones." Physical-layer-level, infrastructure free wireless experimentation. The only thing that comes close is WiFi DXing, and that doesn't carry the promise of worldwide communication. I'll say it again. E-mailing Hong Kong? Boring. Working Hong Kong on 1.8MHz CW? Thrilling! Don't totally discount the appeal of ham radio because we have other communications methods available. Ham radio allows me to contact the other guy with no middleman, sometimes in surprising ways. It's the only game in town for that. That doesn't necessarily appeal to a normal high schooler, but it never did ;-) But that doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to some younger people. Just don't tune the radio to 75m phone when you have the boy scouts over to your shack. Tune across some weak, fluttery UA0's fading in and out of the noise on 20m CW and explain how you're listening to Siberia with no intervening wires. You'll occasionally hook someone that way. I stayed up late winter nights ten years ago as an 18 year old ham, logged into the #CQDX IRC chat while tuning around 40m CW. Trust me, the ZL's I ran into on the air were a totally different thing than the ZL's I ran into on the internet, and there's a small segment of any young population who will understand that. Look for the weird kids, demonstrate some DX CW to them, they'll be interested. The average, popular high school kid has to get through college probably before they'll let their inner weird kid come out. You have to wait a little longer for them. 73 Dan Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-11-02 N2EY trotted out his "radio history for dummies" notebook, poison pen, and wrote: "You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that." Not by your personal experience. When 11m CB was created in 1958 you were about 5 years old. You had NO personal experience with the first five years of 11m CB. I did and millions of others did. You are only 'reporting' what you've seen on ham radio forums in the last two decades or so. .......... N2EY: "CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC." What something was "meant for" and ACTUAL USE can differ widely. In the first 5 years of 11m CB, the ACTUAL USE was for "personal communications," particularly in urban areas. What was unusual was that the average CB-er of that time was in the thirty-something age group, NOT youth. Contrary to politically-correct ham opinion, there was little REAL policing of CB by the FCC, there was NO widespread "shooting skip" and the "high power" CB amplifiers were extremely rare. That would continue for the next decade when the off-shore radio makers entered the market. Nearly ALL CB users were CASUAL users, except the truckers found that it was an excellent way to break the boredom of driving for hours on end. The only REAL "high power" users were those who bought General Radiotelephone transceivers, made in nearby Burbank, CA. "General" used a TV horizontal sweep tube for a final and had a built-in jumper to "allow high power operation when the FCC approves of that." The "high power" was about 25 to 30 W peak RF but still with down-modulation. Many who bought a General around here immediately did the jumper change or asked someone to do it for them. I never did that, Jimmie, don't start in with your usual accusatory allusions. General Radiotelephone didn't make it into big-time CB sales and tried to get into business radio. They moved from their second-floor Hq and assembly area on Burbank Boulevard some time in the late 1960s and might still be around somewhere in L.A. What is interesting is that General liked to brag about their partly-completed tower (for the future) but never completed it. That initial construction is still standing on the roof of their original business building. A post-production sound editing firm occupies the second floor now. While assembly was 100% done by workers on-site (all point-to-point hand wiring), components were the cheapest available. Esthetically, the exterior designs must have been conceived by color-blind elders without a trace of artistic sense. What got the Electronic Industries Association (EIA) in a dither was the flood of off-shore designed-and-made 11m CB sets in the 1960s. You don't realize that because you saw so little of it first-hand that nearly every USA radio maker had at least one 11m CB transceiver in their product line in the 1960s. All of those are long GONE and everything of what is left is made off-shore now. The "lack of popularity" came about simply because the market (largely supported by truckers) SATURATED. Saturation to the point of new sets just replacing old ones. Prompting/lobbying for more channels came about from manufacturing groups wanting to increase their edge in an already-dwindling market. Forty channels with dozens of users for each one in an urban area just isn't enough, even when some set designs used SSB techniques to break through. The EIA and other industry associations were trying to fight the flood of imports in the 1960s and into the 1970s. Some manufacturers bowed to the inevitable. An example is RCA Corporation announcing that all of their black-and-white TV models would be made off-shore from about 1973 and after (year approximate based on memories of then while working for RCA EASD in Van Nuys, CA; RCA TV division was in Indianapolis, IN). Today I think that ALL new TV receivers on the consumer market in the USA are made off-shore. ............... N2EY: "This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them." Sonny, all you've done is to keep alive the old-timer ham hatred and bigotry of CB that started when you were about 5 years old. You have NO first-hand experience in that and all you are doing is repeating what you've read on amateur radio forums. For example: N2EY: "Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era." You have a very mixed-up timeline. The CB market saturated a quarter century ago. Cellular telephony installations increased in earnest in the 1990s, can be seen today all along major highways of the USA. The Internet went public in 1991 but took about four years to make enough steam to really roll out. Had you ever been OUT on the highways of the USA any time from the 1970s to the present you would have experienced - first hand - that there are FEW who bother driving at ANY posted speed limit. Truckers have continued to cruise at 70 MPH despite any "ban" on maximum speed at any time. That is said NOT to condone such behavior, simply reporting what is atually done, as observed first-hand, ON the highways. Following your pattern of messaging, you will now come back with a LECTURE on driving, safe speeds, etc. Give up the lecturing, Jimmie. ............ N2EY: "You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it?" Wrong again. Not past tense. My E.F.Johnson Viking Messenger (bought at Henry Radio in Los Angeles in early 1958) is gathering dust on a shelf in the workshop. So is a Bendix Marine Division tube type made OEM by some other firm (half-price sale by a Bendix rep friend). They might still work. Old designs, needed crystal control on each channel, both Rx and Tx. Vibrator HV supply in both, NOT reliable, never were for mobile radios. Nobody wants such things now. Based on contemporary CB transceivers of the time, BOTH are average size, not "miniaturized." I am not "miniaturized" either and still operational. Any more cracks? ........... Try, please TRY to get on the Article SUBJECT, Jimmie. The subject is Bringing Youth Into Amateur Radio. What youth have YOU enticed into ham radio? Did they actually enter after you LECTURED them using mixed-up timeline "history" cribs? I haven't enticed any youth into amateur radio. I've enticed two younger people to enter the electronics industry and both did, are still working in it. But, as you keep reminding everyone, I am a "newcomer" to amateur radio and therefore can't possibly know anything. <shrug> I'm acquainted with a sizeable number of non-radio people, including some under 18 years of age. I can understand a bit better what the general group of young people prefer, see it reflected in the marketplace and advertising, with less bias than the average parent can. In general those younger people want to do what intrigues them, are not enthused by the same things that enticed a fifty-something ham 40 years ago. Yet, fifty-something (and older) marketing people CAN get them enthused. There's a lesson to be learned in that, subliminal perhaps, but what Don Keith, N4KC, alluded to in his message. Don IS in marketing. One HAS to see into young people's minds, not force them in with what YOU think they should know. Certainly NOT with what was written by the ARRL a half century ago. Len, AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' ... Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably." You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that. CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC. And for the first few years, 11 meter CB wasn't too bad. CB users followed the rules and enjoyed their radios. After all, the FCC had set up the rules and would enforce them - right? But by the late 1960s, some CBers were simply ignoring the FCC rules. They'd run illegal high power to big antennas, contact distant stations, intentionally interfere with others, etc. They began to adopt "handles" (pseudonyms) and use phony accents to hide their real identities. Many simply didn't bother with licenses at all. Before long, the rules-following CB users were completely outnumbered, and soon disappeared. FCC finally gave up trying to license cb users completely. The oil crises of the 1970s, and the resulting 55 mph speed limit, were a major promotion for cb in the 1970s. CB became a way for truckers and others to avoid law enforcement officers and the speed limit, to the point that movies were made glorifying this aspect of CB. What really bothered many hams was the fact that these antics were not confined to the 23 channels of 11 meters. The use of illegal and often poorly-designed-and-operated high power amplifiers by cb users resulted in TV interference and other RFI problems. These problems were often blamed on hams with perfectly clean and legal transmitters, because the hams were easily located, identified themselves on the air and were known to FCC. To add to the mess, some CB users modified their radios to operate outside the legal CB channels, invading the allocations of other radio services near 27 MHz, including the 10 meter ham band. This sort of activity, called "HFing" or "freebanding", became so prevalent that in 1978 FCC passed regulations against the sale of various forms of RF power amplifiers. These regulations had little effect on the illegals, though. In the 1970s, the EIA (a manufacturer's group) petitioned FCC to reallocate the 220 MHz ham band to a new "Class E" CB service, using FM on many more channels. Both 11 meter CB users and hams opposed this, for obvious reasons. (The hams didn't want to lose another band while the CB users didn't want to have to replace practically their entire setups, and give up much of the long-distance capabilities of 11 meters). This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them. Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era. The ironic thing is that, when CB had licenses, there was a minimum-age requirement for the license. 15 years of age, IIRC. You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-10-31 AB7E posted on October 30, 2008: "If 30 years ago you had the choice between a hobby that mostly just allowed you to talk into a mic (or tap out CW) when the band was open (and only to those who had licenses) and required you to have a bunch of different unique hardware (including outdoor antennas that upset the neighbors), versus being able to speak with all of your friends anytime with a cellphone smaller than your wallet or play interactive games online with stunning graphics (on a piece of hardware you already have and complete with free group voice chat) anytime with anyone anywhere in the world ... which would you have chosen?? I sincerely doubt it would have been ham radio." In all honesty I have to agree with that. Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' Before that end-of-the-1950s period the 'radio' interest had been with 'Hi-Fi' and the excellence of recordings on long-play vinyl grooved discs, then stereo tape, and finally, the beginning of widespread stereo FM broadcasting. ............. AB7E: "And of course this has nothing to do with the "laziness" or "immediate gratification" grumpy old men (ham radio is full of them) like to attribute to youngsters. Check out how many retired folks of both sexes are active participants in World of Warcraft or Second Life ... they dwarf late-in-life recruits to ham radio by orders of magnitude." I don't doubt it. Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably. In the next semi-niche hobby, personal computers, the BBS was born in the late 1970s and brought together a way-wider group of social interacters. BBSers who interacted in-person as well as on the phone lines with computer-modems were more homogenous representatives of the population. Few were radio-active but all were eager to try out this brand new medium of communications. In urban areas this kept on expanding until the Internet went public in 1991 and provided the first widespread international communications participation by computer-modem. In the 1980s the computer hobbyist community was rivaling amateur radio numbers, having more special-interest independent computer hobbyist magazines than were published in the USA at the time. By 1990 the cell phone was becoming smaller and less expensive and growing all over the country. In a decade it would become so small and so numerous that one in ten Americans were cell phone subscribers. By 2004 one in three Americans had cell phone subscriptions; teen-agers were able to use them to interact with other teeners and the 'texting' craze had begun. Why not? The price was far lower than portable ham gear, could be carried in a shirt pocket or small purse and used much without racking up a sizeable phone bill. ............ AB7E: "I would gladly try to mentor anyone who showed a budding interest in ham radio, but I don't see the point in trying to be an evangelist for the hobby." I would rather evangelize the electronics industry to younger people. It is far bigger than amateurism in radio and has FAR greater scope and variation on what it can do. It can also provide a very decent wage and be a fun job at the same time. Amateur radio is a niche hobby and the old-timers have managed to both stratify it and mummify it in old standards and practices suitable for long-past times. For younger people, the rationale that a ham license lets you "advance the state of the radio art and talk to foreign folk for 'free' on one's own station" is trite and dated. It might have worked in the 1960s but this is four decades (and two generations) later. For one thing it is definitely NOT 'free' since a decent station for HF is going to cost more than a complete PC set-up. For another, HF is NOT that reliable 24/7 and the average lower-power HF ham bands are at the mercy of the ionosphere. The only 'advancing the art' in HF radio is inside the radios and that technology has almost saturated. .............. AB7E: "Like NN4RH says, kids aren't idiots (or lazy when it comes to interesting things), and if they have any interest in what ham radio has to offer they will find it." Absolutely true. Based on my 'beginner, newbie' life experience over the last 76 years, EVERY old-generation curmudgeon gets all disgusted about the do-nothing younger generation. They just won't recognize that that THEY were once considered 'do-nothing' young wastrels by generation-older curmudgeons of their day. :-) I've read of the same attitudes prevalent in most societies over previous centuries...Pompeii curmudgeons were probably cussing THEIR do-nothing young folks just before Vesuvious blew its top and buried everyone. :-) .............. AB7E: "Most of this talk about enticing young folks into the hobby (and it is just a hobby ... it isn't the path to heaven) simply sounds to me like people in a niche activity looking for validation. Why else would you consider it to be important?" Much of the TALK is simply rationalization. On the other hand, if license numbers start to drop again and newcomers don't replace the usual human-attrition expirations, that WILL be noticed by commercial groups that might want to use ham bands for other purposes. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : AB7E on 2008-10-31 KE7UXE: "Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal." How do you figure? That isn't even remotely true. Not only is global internet voice chat full duplex, FM quality, real time, and free ... people can use it while collaborating in an online game, or while working together on a drawing or file, or while streaming music to each other. None of that is new, either ... it's been available for years from multiple sources. This is exactly what I mean. Hams lament that kids today are too lazy and disconnected with technology to discover ham radio, and the reality is that hams are too disconnected to understand the kinds of alternatives for kids that make ham radio merely a legacy curiosity for them. Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 "ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board." No it isn't...it is giving them friends to text who happen to be in Estonia, Spain and Japan. Sadly, for many the alure of ham radio is the gear. IMO it ought to be the opportunity to talk with a wide variety of people from all over the world. Ham radio is a social activity. That is what kids might like. If later they get interested in the equipment, so be it. Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal. Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| AB7E | 2008-11-02 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| I agree with everything you say Dan, and I would happily help out any young person who wanted to get involved with ham radio. As you say, though, it is a very small percentage of kids who would be interested in what we do beyond mere curiosity, and while it is worthwhile trying to capture every one of them, they won't make much of a lasting impact on the ham population. I make a point of checking out the pictures that get published in the magazines and on the internet for every event I hear about, and it doesn't take a rocket surgeon (line stolen from the Kath and Kim TV show) to see the shifting demographics of our hobby. 73, Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : N3OX on 2008-11-02 "Prove me wrong and try to identify some function (communication, competition, intellectual discovery, social interaction, etc) that ham radio does better than computers, internet, or cell phones." Physical-layer-level, infrastructure free wireless experimentation. The only thing that comes close is WiFi DXing, and that doesn't carry the promise of worldwide communication. I'll say it again. E-mailing Hong Kong? Boring. Working Hong Kong on 1.8MHz CW? Thrilling! Don't totally discount the appeal of ham radio because we have other communications methods available. Ham radio allows me to contact the other guy with no middleman, sometimes in surprising ways. It's the only game in town for that. That doesn't necessarily appeal to a normal high schooler, but it never did ;-) But that doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to some younger people. Just don't tune the radio to 75m phone when you have the boy scouts over to your shack. Tune across some weak, fluttery UA0's fading in and out of the noise on 20m CW and explain how you're listening to Siberia with no intervening wires. You'll occasionally hook someone that way. I stayed up late winter nights ten years ago as an 18 year old ham, logged into the #CQDX IRC chat while tuning around 40m CW. Trust me, the ZL's I ran into on the air were a totally different thing than the ZL's I ran into on the internet, and there's a small segment of any young population who will understand that. Look for the weird kids, demonstrate some DX CW to them, they'll be interested. The average, popular high school kid has to get through college probably before they'll let their inner weird kid come out. You have to wait a little longer for them. 73 Dan Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-11-02 N2EY trotted out his "radio history for dummies" notebook, poison pen, and wrote: "You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that." Not by your personal experience. When 11m CB was created in 1958 you were about 5 years old. You had NO personal experience with the first five years of 11m CB. I did and millions of others did. You are only 'reporting' what you've seen on ham radio forums in the last two decades or so. .......... N2EY: "CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC." What something was "meant for" and ACTUAL USE can differ widely. In the first 5 years of 11m CB, the ACTUAL USE was for "personal communications," particularly in urban areas. What was unusual was that the average CB-er of that time was in the thirty-something age group, NOT youth. Contrary to politically-correct ham opinion, there was little REAL policing of CB by the FCC, there was NO widespread "shooting skip" and the "high power" CB amplifiers were extremely rare. That would continue for the next decade when the off-shore radio makers entered the market. Nearly ALL CB users were CASUAL users, except the truckers found that it was an excellent way to break the boredom of driving for hours on end. The only REAL "high power" users were those who bought General Radiotelephone transceivers, made in nearby Burbank, CA. "General" used a TV horizontal sweep tube for a final and had a built-in jumper to "allow high power operation when the FCC approves of that." The "high power" was about 25 to 30 W peak RF but still with down-modulation. Many who bought a General around here immediately did the jumper change or asked someone to do it for them. I never did that, Jimmie, don't start in with your usual accusatory allusions. General Radiotelephone didn't make it into big-time CB sales and tried to get into business radio. They moved from their second-floor Hq and assembly area on Burbank Boulevard some time in the late 1960s and might still be around somewhere in L.A. What is interesting is that General liked to brag about their partly-completed tower (for the future) but never completed it. That initial construction is still standing on the roof of their original business building. A post-production sound editing firm occupies the second floor now. While assembly was 100% done by workers on-site (all point-to-point hand wiring), components were the cheapest available. Esthetically, the exterior designs must have been conceived by color-blind elders without a trace of artistic sense. What got the Electronic Industries Association (EIA) in a dither was the flood of off-shore designed-and-made 11m CB sets in the 1960s. You don't realize that because you saw so little of it first-hand that nearly every USA radio maker had at least one 11m CB transceiver in their product line in the 1960s. All of those are long GONE and everything of what is left is made off-shore now. The "lack of popularity" came about simply because the market (largely supported by truckers) SATURATED. Saturation to the point of new sets just replacing old ones. Prompting/lobbying for more channels came about from manufacturing groups wanting to increase their edge in an already-dwindling market. Forty channels with dozens of users for each one in an urban area just isn't enough, even when some set designs used SSB techniques to break through. The EIA and other industry associations were trying to fight the flood of imports in the 1960s and into the 1970s. Some manufacturers bowed to the inevitable. An example is RCA Corporation announcing that all of their black-and-white TV models would be made off-shore from about 1973 and after (year approximate based on memories of then while working for RCA EASD in Van Nuys, CA; RCA TV division was in Indianapolis, IN). Today I think that ALL new TV receivers on the consumer market in the USA are made off-shore. ............... N2EY: "This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them." Sonny, all you've done is to keep alive the old-timer ham hatred and bigotry of CB that started when you were about 5 years old. You have NO first-hand experience in that and all you are doing is repeating what you've read on amateur radio forums. For example: N2EY: "Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era." You have a very mixed-up timeline. The CB market saturated a quarter century ago. Cellular telephony installations increased in earnest in the 1990s, can be seen today all along major highways of the USA. The Internet went public in 1991 but took about four years to make enough steam to really roll out. Had you ever been OUT on the highways of the USA any time from the 1970s to the present you would have experienced - first hand - that there are FEW who bother driving at ANY posted speed limit. Truckers have continued to cruise at 70 MPH despite any "ban" on maximum speed at any time. That is said NOT to condone such behavior, simply reporting what is atually done, as observed first-hand, ON the highways. Following your pattern of messaging, you will now come back with a LECTURE on driving, safe speeds, etc. Give up the lecturing, Jimmie. ............ N2EY: "You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it?" Wrong again. Not past tense. My E.F.Johnson Viking Messenger (bought at Henry Radio in Los Angeles in early 1958) is gathering dust on a shelf in the workshop. So is a Bendix Marine Division tube type made OEM by some other firm (half-price sale by a Bendix rep friend). They might still work. Old designs, needed crystal control on each channel, both Rx and Tx. Vibrator HV supply in both, NOT reliable, never were for mobile radios. Nobody wants such things now. Based on contemporary CB transceivers of the time, BOTH are average size, not "miniaturized." I am not "miniaturized" either and still operational. Any more cracks? ........... Try, please TRY to get on the Article SUBJECT, Jimmie. The subject is Bringing Youth Into Amateur Radio. What youth have YOU enticed into ham radio? Did they actually enter after you LECTURED them using mixed-up timeline "history" cribs? I haven't enticed any youth into amateur radio. I've enticed two younger people to enter the electronics industry and both did, are still working in it. But, as you keep reminding everyone, I am a "newcomer" to amateur radio and therefore can't possibly know anything. <shrug> I'm acquainted with a sizeable number of non-radio people, including some under 18 years of age. I can understand a bit better what the general group of young people prefer, see it reflected in the marketplace and advertising, with less bias than the average parent can. In general those younger people want to do what intrigues them, are not enthused by the same things that enticed a fifty-something ham 40 years ago. Yet, fifty-something (and older) marketing people CAN get them enthused. There's a lesson to be learned in that, subliminal perhaps, but what Don Keith, N4KC, alluded to in his message. Don IS in marketing. One HAS to see into young people's minds, not force them in with what YOU think they should know. Certainly NOT with what was written by the ARRL a half century ago. Len, AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' ... Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably." You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that. CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC. And for the first few years, 11 meter CB wasn't too bad. CB users followed the rules and enjoyed their radios. After all, the FCC had set up the rules and would enforce them - right? But by the late 1960s, some CBers were simply ignoring the FCC rules. They'd run illegal high power to big antennas, contact distant stations, intentionally interfere with others, etc. They began to adopt "handles" (pseudonyms) and use phony accents to hide their real identities. Many simply didn't bother with licenses at all. Before long, the rules-following CB users were completely outnumbered, and soon disappeared. FCC finally gave up trying to license cb users completely. The oil crises of the 1970s, and the resulting 55 mph speed limit, were a major promotion for cb in the 1970s. CB became a way for truckers and others to avoid law enforcement officers and the speed limit, to the point that movies were made glorifying this aspect of CB. What really bothered many hams was the fact that these antics were not confined to the 23 channels of 11 meters. The use of illegal and often poorly-designed-and-operated high power amplifiers by cb users resulted in TV interference and other RFI problems. These problems were often blamed on hams with perfectly clean and legal transmitters, because the hams were easily located, identified themselves on the air and were known to FCC. To add to the mess, some CB users modified their radios to operate outside the legal CB channels, invading the allocations of other radio services near 27 MHz, including the 10 meter ham band. This sort of activity, called "HFing" or "freebanding", became so prevalent that in 1978 FCC passed regulations against the sale of various forms of RF power amplifiers. These regulations had little effect on the illegals, though. In the 1970s, the EIA (a manufacturer's group) petitioned FCC to reallocate the 220 MHz ham band to a new "Class E" CB service, using FM on many more channels. Both 11 meter CB users and hams opposed this, for obvious reasons. (The hams didn't want to lose another band while the CB users didn't want to have to replace practically their entire setups, and give up much of the long-distance capabilities of 11 meters). This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them. Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era. The ironic thing is that, when CB had licenses, there was a minimum-age requirement for the license. 15 years of age, IIRC. You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-10-31 AB7E posted on October 30, 2008: "If 30 years ago you had the choice between a hobby that mostly just allowed you to talk into a mic (or tap out CW) when the band was open (and only to those who had licenses) and required you to have a bunch of different unique hardware (including outdoor antennas that upset the neighbors), versus being able to speak with all of your friends anytime with a cellphone smaller than your wallet or play interactive games online with stunning graphics (on a piece of hardware you already have and complete with free group voice chat) anytime with anyone anywhere in the world ... which would you have chosen?? I sincerely doubt it would have been ham radio." In all honesty I have to agree with that. Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' Before that end-of-the-1950s period the 'radio' interest had been with 'Hi-Fi' and the excellence of recordings on long-play vinyl grooved discs, then stereo tape, and finally, the beginning of widespread stereo FM broadcasting. ............. AB7E: "And of course this has nothing to do with the "laziness" or "immediate gratification" grumpy old men (ham radio is full of them) like to attribute to youngsters. Check out how many retired folks of both sexes are active participants in World of Warcraft or Second Life ... they dwarf late-in-life recruits to ham radio by orders of magnitude." I don't doubt it. Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably. In the next semi-niche hobby, personal computers, the BBS was born in the late 1970s and brought together a way-wider group of social interacters. BBSers who interacted in-person as well as on the phone lines with computer-modems were more homogenous representatives of the population. Few were radio-active but all were eager to try out this brand new medium of communications. In urban areas this kept on expanding until the Internet went public in 1991 and provided the first widespread international communications participation by computer-modem. In the 1980s the computer hobbyist community was rivaling amateur radio numbers, having more special-interest independent computer hobbyist magazines than were published in the USA at the time. By 1990 the cell phone was becoming smaller and less expensive and growing all over the country. In a decade it would become so small and so numerous that one in ten Americans were cell phone subscribers. By 2004 one in three Americans had cell phone subscriptions; teen-agers were able to use them to interact with other teeners and the 'texting' craze had begun. Why not? The price was far lower than portable ham gear, could be carried in a shirt pocket or small purse and used much without racking up a sizeable phone bill. ............ AB7E: "I would gladly try to mentor anyone who showed a budding interest in ham radio, but I don't see the point in trying to be an evangelist for the hobby." I would rather evangelize the electronics industry to younger people. It is far bigger than amateurism in radio and has FAR greater scope and variation on what it can do. It can also provide a very decent wage and be a fun job at the same time. Amateur radio is a niche hobby and the old-timers have managed to both stratify it and mummify it in old standards and practices suitable for long-past times. For younger people, the rationale that a ham license lets you "advance the state of the radio art and talk to foreign folk for 'free' on one's own station" is trite and dated. It might have worked in the 1960s but this is four decades (and two generations) later. For one thing it is definitely NOT 'free' since a decent station for HF is going to cost more than a complete PC set-up. For another, HF is NOT that reliable 24/7 and the average lower-power HF ham bands are at the mercy of the ionosphere. The only 'advancing the art' in HF radio is inside the radios and that technology has almost saturated. .............. AB7E: "Like NN4RH says, kids aren't idiots (or lazy when it comes to interesting things), and if they have any interest in what ham radio has to offer they will find it." Absolutely true. Based on my 'beginner, newbie' life experience over the last 76 years, EVERY old-generation curmudgeon gets all disgusted about the do-nothing younger generation. They just won't recognize that that THEY were once considered 'do-nothing' young wastrels by generation-older curmudgeons of their day. :-) I've read of the same attitudes prevalent in most societies over previous centuries...Pompeii curmudgeons were probably cussing THEIR do-nothing young folks just before Vesuvious blew its top and buried everyone. :-) .............. AB7E: "Most of this talk about enticing young folks into the hobby (and it is just a hobby ... it isn't the path to heaven) simply sounds to me like people in a niche activity looking for validation. Why else would you consider it to be important?" Much of the TALK is simply rationalization. On the other hand, if license numbers start to drop again and newcomers don't replace the usual human-attrition expirations, that WILL be noticed by commercial groups that might want to use ham bands for other purposes. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : AB7E on 2008-10-31 KE7UXE: "Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal." How do you figure? That isn't even remotely true. Not only is global internet voice chat full duplex, FM quality, real time, and free ... people can use it while collaborating in an online game, or while working together on a drawing or file, or while streaming music to each other. None of that is new, either ... it's been available for years from multiple sources. This is exactly what I mean. Hams lament that kids today are too lazy and disconnected with technology to discover ham radio, and the reality is that hams are too disconnected to understand the kinds of alternatives for kids that make ham radio merely a legacy curiosity for them. Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 "ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board." No it isn't...it is giving them friends to text who happen to be in Estonia, Spain and Japan. Sadly, for many the alure of ham radio is the gear. IMO it ought to be the opportunity to talk with a wide variety of people from all over the world. Ham radio is a social activity. That is what kids might like. If later they get interested in the equipment, so be it. Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal. Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| PLANKEYE | 2008-11-02 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio Reply by KE5WRC on November 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend! THIS IS KE5WRC: Speaking as a new youth in ham radio, i can truly say that the thing that got me into ham was one on one with a ham i work with. this is what is going to get the youth of today into ham. tell them your stories of talking to someone in africa, or asia over the radio waves without using the internet, if they seem interested, show them. __________________________________________________ THIS IS PLANKEYE: Thank you KE5WRC, I liked what you wrote. PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : KE5WRC on 2008-11-02 Speaking as a new youth in ham radio, i can truly say that the thing that got me into ham was one on one with a ham i work with. this is what is going to get the youth of today into ham. tell them your stories of talking to someone in africa, or asia over the radio waves without using the internet, if they seem interested, show them. | ||
| N3OX | 2008-11-02 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| "Prove me wrong and try to identify some function (communication, competition, intellectual discovery, social interaction, etc) that ham radio does better than computers, internet, or cell phones." Physical-layer-level, infrastructure free wireless experimentation. The only thing that comes close is WiFi DXing, and that doesn't carry the promise of worldwide communication. I'll say it again. E-mailing Hong Kong? Boring. Working Hong Kong on 1.8MHz CW? Thrilling! Don't totally discount the appeal of ham radio because we have other communications methods available. Ham radio allows me to contact the other guy with no middleman, sometimes in surprising ways. It's the only game in town for that. That doesn't necessarily appeal to a normal high schooler, but it never did ;-) But that doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to some younger people. Just don't tune the radio to 75m phone when you have the boy scouts over to your shack. Tune across some weak, fluttery UA0's fading in and out of the noise on 20m CW and explain how you're listening to Siberia with no intervening wires. You'll occasionally hook someone that way. I stayed up late winter nights ten years ago as an 18 year old ham, logged into the #CQDX IRC chat while tuning around 40m CW. Trust me, the ZL's I ran into on the air were a totally different thing than the ZL's I ran into on the internet, and there's a small segment of any young population who will understand that. Look for the weird kids, demonstrate some DX CW to them, they'll be interested. The average, popular high school kid has to get through college probably before they'll let their inner weird kid come out. You have to wait a little longer for them. 73 Dan Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-11-02 N2EY trotted out his "radio history for dummies" notebook, poison pen, and wrote: "You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that." Not by your personal experience. When 11m CB was created in 1958 you were about 5 years old. You had NO personal experience with the first five years of 11m CB. I did and millions of others did. You are only 'reporting' what you've seen on ham radio forums in the last two decades or so. .......... N2EY: "CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC." What something was "meant for" and ACTUAL USE can differ widely. In the first 5 years of 11m CB, the ACTUAL USE was for "personal communications," particularly in urban areas. What was unusual was that the average CB-er of that time was in the thirty-something age group, NOT youth. Contrary to politically-correct ham opinion, there was little REAL policing of CB by the FCC, there was NO widespread "shooting skip" and the "high power" CB amplifiers were extremely rare. That would continue for the next decade when the off-shore radio makers entered the market. Nearly ALL CB users were CASUAL users, except the truckers found that it was an excellent way to break the boredom of driving for hours on end. The only REAL "high power" users were those who bought General Radiotelephone transceivers, made in nearby Burbank, CA. "General" used a TV horizontal sweep tube for a final and had a built-in jumper to "allow high power operation when the FCC approves of that." The "high power" was about 25 to 30 W peak RF but still with down-modulation. Many who bought a General around here immediately did the jumper change or asked someone to do it for them. I never did that, Jimmie, don't start in with your usual accusatory allusions. General Radiotelephone didn't make it into big-time CB sales and tried to get into business radio. They moved from their second-floor Hq and assembly area on Burbank Boulevard some time in the late 1960s and might still be around somewhere in L.A. What is interesting is that General liked to brag about their partly-completed tower (for the future) but never completed it. That initial construction is still standing on the roof of their original business building. A post-production sound editing firm occupies the second floor now. While assembly was 100% done by workers on-site (all point-to-point hand wiring), components were the cheapest available. Esthetically, the exterior designs must have been conceived by color-blind elders without a trace of artistic sense. What got the Electronic Industries Association (EIA) in a dither was the flood of off-shore designed-and-made 11m CB sets in the 1960s. You don't realize that because you saw so little of it first-hand that nearly every USA radio maker had at least one 11m CB transceiver in their product line in the 1960s. All of those are long GONE and everything of what is left is made off-shore now. The "lack of popularity" came about simply because the market (largely supported by truckers) SATURATED. Saturation to the point of new sets just replacing old ones. Prompting/lobbying for more channels came about from manufacturing groups wanting to increase their edge in an already-dwindling market. Forty channels with dozens of users for each one in an urban area just isn't enough, even when some set designs used SSB techniques to break through. The EIA and other industry associations were trying to fight the flood of imports in the 1960s and into the 1970s. Some manufacturers bowed to the inevitable. An example is RCA Corporation announcing that all of their black-and-white TV models would be made off-shore from about 1973 and after (year approximate based on memories of then while working for RCA EASD in Van Nuys, CA; RCA TV division was in Indianapolis, IN). Today I think that ALL new TV receivers on the consumer market in the USA are made off-shore. ............... N2EY: "This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them." Sonny, all you've done is to keep alive the old-timer ham hatred and bigotry of CB that started when you were about 5 years old. You have NO first-hand experience in that and all you are doing is repeating what you've read on amateur radio forums. For example: N2EY: "Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era." You have a very mixed-up timeline. The CB market saturated a quarter century ago. Cellular telephony installations increased in earnest in the 1990s, can be seen today all along major highways of the USA. The Internet went public in 1991 but took about four years to make enough steam to really roll out. Had you ever been OUT on the highways of the USA any time from the 1970s to the present you would have experienced - first hand - that there are FEW who bother driving at ANY posted speed limit. Truckers have continued to cruise at 70 MPH despite any "ban" on maximum speed at any time. That is said NOT to condone such behavior, simply reporting what is atually done, as observed first-hand, ON the highways. Following your pattern of messaging, you will now come back with a LECTURE on driving, safe speeds, etc. Give up the lecturing, Jimmie. ............ N2EY: "You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it?" Wrong again. Not past tense. My E.F.Johnson Viking Messenger (bought at Henry Radio in Los Angeles in early 1958) is gathering dust on a shelf in the workshop. So is a Bendix Marine Division tube type made OEM by some other firm (half-price sale by a Bendix rep friend). They might still work. Old designs, needed crystal control on each channel, both Rx and Tx. Vibrator HV supply in both, NOT reliable, never were for mobile radios. Nobody wants such things now. Based on contemporary CB transceivers of the time, BOTH are average size, not "miniaturized." I am not "miniaturized" either and still operational. Any more cracks? ........... Try, please TRY to get on the Article SUBJECT, Jimmie. The subject is Bringing Youth Into Amateur Radio. What youth have YOU enticed into ham radio? Did they actually enter after you LECTURED them using mixed-up timeline "history" cribs? I haven't enticed any youth into amateur radio. I've enticed two younger people to enter the electronics industry and both did, are still working in it. But, as you keep reminding everyone, I am a "newcomer" to amateur radio and therefore can't possibly know anything. <shrug> I'm acquainted with a sizeable number of non-radio people, including some under 18 years of age. I can understand a bit better what the general group of young people prefer, see it reflected in the marketplace and advertising, with less bias than the average parent can. In general those younger people want to do what intrigues them, are not enthused by the same things that enticed a fifty-something ham 40 years ago. Yet, fifty-something (and older) marketing people CAN get them enthused. There's a lesson to be learned in that, subliminal perhaps, but what Don Keith, N4KC, alluded to in his message. Don IS in marketing. One HAS to see into young people's minds, not force them in with what YOU think they should know. Certainly NOT with what was written by the ARRL a half century ago. Len, AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' ... Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably." You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that. CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC. And for the first few years, 11 meter CB wasn't too bad. CB users followed the rules and enjoyed their radios. After all, the FCC had set up the rules and would enforce them - right? But by the late 1960s, some CBers were simply ignoring the FCC rules. They'd run illegal high power to big antennas, contact distant stations, intentionally interfere with others, etc. They began to adopt "handles" (pseudonyms) and use phony accents to hide their real identities. Many simply didn't bother with licenses at all. Before long, the rules-following CB users were completely outnumbered, and soon disappeared. FCC finally gave up trying to license cb users completely. The oil crises of the 1970s, and the resulting 55 mph speed limit, were a major promotion for cb in the 1970s. CB became a way for truckers and others to avoid law enforcement officers and the speed limit, to the point that movies were made glorifying this aspect of CB. What really bothered many hams was the fact that these antics were not confined to the 23 channels of 11 meters. The use of illegal and often poorly-designed-and-operated high power amplifiers by cb users resulted in TV interference and other RFI problems. These problems were often blamed on hams with perfectly clean and legal transmitters, because the hams were easily located, identified themselves on the air and were known to FCC. To add to the mess, some CB users modified their radios to operate outside the legal CB channels, invading the allocations of other radio services near 27 MHz, including the 10 meter ham band. This sort of activity, called "HFing" or "freebanding", became so prevalent that in 1978 FCC passed regulations against the sale of various forms of RF power amplifiers. These regulations had little effect on the illegals, though. In the 1970s, the EIA (a manufacturer's group) petitioned FCC to reallocate the 220 MHz ham band to a new "Class E" CB service, using FM on many more channels. Both 11 meter CB users and hams opposed this, for obvious reasons. (The hams didn't want to lose another band while the CB users didn't want to have to replace practically their entire setups, and give up much of the long-distance capabilities of 11 meters). This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them. Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era. The ironic thing is that, when CB had licenses, there was a minimum-age requirement for the license. 15 years of age, IIRC. You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-10-31 AB7E posted on October 30, 2008: "If 30 years ago you had the choice between a hobby that mostly just allowed you to talk into a mic (or tap out CW) when the band was open (and only to those who had licenses) and required you to have a bunch of different unique hardware (including outdoor antennas that upset the neighbors), versus being able to speak with all of your friends anytime with a cellphone smaller than your wallet or play interactive games online with stunning graphics (on a piece of hardware you already have and complete with free group voice chat) anytime with anyone anywhere in the world ... which would you have chosen?? I sincerely doubt it would have been ham radio." In all honesty I have to agree with that. Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' Before that end-of-the-1950s period the 'radio' interest had been with 'Hi-Fi' and the excellence of recordings on long-play vinyl grooved discs, then stereo tape, and finally, the beginning of widespread stereo FM broadcasting. ............. AB7E: "And of course this has nothing to do with the "laziness" or "immediate gratification" grumpy old men (ham radio is full of them) like to attribute to youngsters. Check out how many retired folks of both sexes are active participants in World of Warcraft or Second Life ... they dwarf late-in-life recruits to ham radio by orders of magnitude." I don't doubt it. Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably. In the next semi-niche hobby, personal computers, the BBS was born in the late 1970s and brought together a way-wider group of social interacters. BBSers who interacted in-person as well as on the phone lines with computer-modems were more homogenous representatives of the population. Few were radio-active but all were eager to try out this brand new medium of communications. In urban areas this kept on expanding until the Internet went public in 1991 and provided the first widespread international communications participation by computer-modem. In the 1980s the computer hobbyist community was rivaling amateur radio numbers, having more special-interest independent computer hobbyist magazines than were published in the USA at the time. By 1990 the cell phone was becoming smaller and less expensive and growing all over the country. In a decade it would become so small and so numerous that one in ten Americans were cell phone subscribers. By 2004 one in three Americans had cell phone subscriptions; teen-agers were able to use them to interact with other teeners and the 'texting' craze had begun. Why not? The price was far lower than portable ham gear, could be carried in a shirt pocket or small purse and used much without racking up a sizeable phone bill. ............ AB7E: "I would gladly try to mentor anyone who showed a budding interest in ham radio, but I don't see the point in trying to be an evangelist for the hobby." I would rather evangelize the electronics industry to younger people. It is far bigger than amateurism in radio and has FAR greater scope and variation on what it can do. It can also provide a very decent wage and be a fun job at the same time. Amateur radio is a niche hobby and the old-timers have managed to both stratify it and mummify it in old standards and practices suitable for long-past times. For younger people, the rationale that a ham license lets you "advance the state of the radio art and talk to foreign folk for 'free' on one's own station" is trite and dated. It might have worked in the 1960s but this is four decades (and two generations) later. For one thing it is definitely NOT 'free' since a decent station for HF is going to cost more than a complete PC set-up. For another, HF is NOT that reliable 24/7 and the average lower-power HF ham bands are at the mercy of the ionosphere. The only 'advancing the art' in HF radio is inside the radios and that technology has almost saturated. .............. AB7E: "Like NN4RH says, kids aren't idiots (or lazy when it comes to interesting things), and if they have any interest in what ham radio has to offer they will find it." Absolutely true. Based on my 'beginner, newbie' life experience over the last 76 years, EVERY old-generation curmudgeon gets all disgusted about the do-nothing younger generation. They just won't recognize that that THEY were once considered 'do-nothing' young wastrels by generation-older curmudgeons of their day. :-) I've read of the same attitudes prevalent in most societies over previous centuries...Pompeii curmudgeons were probably cussing THEIR do-nothing young folks just before Vesuvious blew its top and buried everyone. :-) .............. AB7E: "Most of this talk about enticing young folks into the hobby (and it is just a hobby ... it isn't the path to heaven) simply sounds to me like people in a niche activity looking for validation. Why else would you consider it to be important?" Much of the TALK is simply rationalization. On the other hand, if license numbers start to drop again and newcomers don't replace the usual human-attrition expirations, that WILL be noticed by commercial groups that might want to use ham bands for other purposes. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : AB7E on 2008-10-31 KE7UXE: "Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal." How do you figure? That isn't even remotely true. Not only is global internet voice chat full duplex, FM quality, real time, and free ... people can use it while collaborating in an online game, or while working together on a drawing or file, or while streaming music to each other. None of that is new, either ... it's been available for years from multiple sources. This is exactly what I mean. Hams lament that kids today are too lazy and disconnected with technology to discover ham radio, and the reality is that hams are too disconnected to understand the kinds of alternatives for kids that make ham radio merely a legacy curiosity for them. Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 "ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board." No it isn't...it is giving them friends to text who happen to be in Estonia, Spain and Japan. Sadly, for many the alure of ham radio is the gear. IMO it ought to be the opportunity to talk with a wide variety of people from all over the world. Ham radio is a social activity. That is what kids might like. If later they get interested in the equipment, so be it. Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal. Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| K6LHA | 2008-11-02 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Dave, THANK YOU for an objective look at HF amateur radio in the USA today. very refreshing. Unfortunately the die-hard hams will no doubt HATE you for that. It rather ruins their continuing rationalization of what they think they should be doing. :-) 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : AB7E on 2008-11-02 KE7UXE: "It is a myth to think that the average youth is sitting on a computer speaking with other people all over the world. I mean really. They carry a phone in their pocket with which they can call their friends yet spend most of their time texting one-another. It is not a usual activity for a kid to initiate a discussion with a total stranger outside the context of some well defined activity. It's not a myth at all, but I'll agree that it's within the context of a defined activity, usually a video game or social networking site. But you're actually reinforcing my point. Kids have very little interest in opening a discussion with some ephemeral person they don't know and have nothing in common with. They prefer to chat with friends, and they often do so via text messaging for the same reason the rest of us do .. it's easier to multitask or converse in private. Kids mostly want to stay connected with their friends, or at least with other kids who have similar interests. Ham radio doesn't do that, and just about everything else ... cell phones, text messaging, Ventrilo (look it up), email, etc ... does it just fine with no license or hardware hassles. Stand outside your local high school and take a survey of the kids passing by. Give them your pitch on ham radio and keep track of those that don't look at you like you're on crack. I'll bet not one in a hundred shows the slightest interest in what ham radio has to offer. I can identify a simpler and more effective means for kids to accomplish every single thing we cherish in ham radio, short of experimenting with electronic circuits that aren't job-relevant anymore anyway. Prove me wrong and try to identify some function (communication, competition, intellectual discovery, social interaction, etc) that ham radio does better than computers, internet, or cell phones. Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-11-01 I work on the internet everyday and all day. I use the latest internet technology. It is very different from ham radio. Sure I can arrange voice commo with others but it is not the norm. It is a myth to think that the average youth is sitting on a computer speaking with other people all over the world. I mean really. They carry a phone in thier pocket with which they can call their friends yet spend most of their time texting one-another. It is not a usual activity for a kid to initiate a discussion with a total stranger outside the context of some well defined activity. The internet and ham radio are as different for kids as they are for us. If we do a good job of showing young people how independent they can be on the radio they will join our ranks in sufficient numbers to ensure the future of the service. Sometimes I cruise the bands passing by "another geezer". I would very much enjoy talking to some young people. They are interesting. Perhaps we could all work on that in ourselves. Reply to a comment by : K6JPA on 2008-11-01 Plankeye, we may not know who you are, but thanks for the grins over the years. You do have a most interesting sense of humor... Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-01 You usually wouldn't bother? I almost spit my teeth out when I seen that. Dag-gummitt again!! You got more angles than a Gazebo!! PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-01 I usually wouldn't bother--but I'm going to make an exception. Hey plank--Didn't you see the smiley at the end of the sentence? Or are you just so plain dumb that you don't know what it means? Its obvious its the latter. Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-01 THIS IS K1CJS: You know what? I'm here to read articles and their comments--not books. It would be nice if comments could be kept shorter--so other people can understand 'em. ;-) ____________________________________________________ THIS IS PLANKEYE: Be nice and treat people with respect! Short comment, did you understand it? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-01 You know what? I'm here to read articles and their comments--not books. It would be nice if comments could be kept shorter--so other people can understand 'em. ;-) Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS." N2EY replied: "Well, you should know, Len, being a newcomer to ham radio yourself." AF6AY: "trying to diss me as you have for years over on rec.radio.amateur.policy." I'm not trying to "diss" you, Len. I'm simply pointing out a fact: You're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I became a 'newcomer' to HF radio on the first week in February, 1953,.....55 1/2 years ago. There is NOTHING in or about amateur radio that is SO unique that 'all' who enter are 'always beginners.'" Nobody said anyhting like that, Len. What I wrote was the fact that you're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I've legally operated radios in seven other radio services before I got my amateur radio license." Sure - a cb, a cell phone, somebody else's marine radio, somebody else's aircraft radio, and some radios in the military as part of a team of personnel trained for the job. But you're still a newcomer to amateur radio. That's not a "diss", it's just a fact. N2EY: "It's odd, though, that you'd be yelling for newcomers when it was you who asked the FCC to create a minimum-age requirement of 14 years for all amateur radio licenses." AF6AY: "What you are referring to is my Comment on FCC Docket 98-143 that was accepted by them on 13 January 1999, two days before their stated end of all Comments." That was a Reply Comment, Len. AF6AY: "Anyone can access my Reply to Comments via the FCC ECFS." Here's a link: http://tinyurl.com/y6uhr3 AF6AY: "I never 'asked' the FCC specifically for that age limit." Yes, you did, Len. AF6AY: "It was a SUGGESTION based on the cute, cute story in the ARRL Letter showing two six-year-olds who passed (respectively) the Technician and Novice exams." It was a request that the rules be changed to ban anyone under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Why the licensing of six-year-olds bothered you, a non-amateur well past the age of 60 at the time, remains a mystery. This thread is about "bringing youth into amateur radio", and you seem to want to ban a considerable part of the youth of the USA from it. You even accused the ARRL VEs of fraud: http://tinyurl.com/2k5mb5 Say - it was an ARRL VE session where you earned your amateur license, wasn't it? AF6AY: "It is all explained in my Reply to Comments. A SUGGESTION to restore a lower age limit, to stop CHILDREN from being legally able to interfere worldwide on HF all by themselves." Not just HF. Your request was to ban all persons under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Yet you could not cite one case - not one single case! - of interference or other problems caused by the youth of a US amateur radio operator. Not one case. Yet you would ban all under 14 years of age, if you had your way, just because they are children, regardless of the tests they passed. In fact, if one bothers to look at the FCC Enforcement actions, the worst offenders in the realm of interference are people of *your* age group in 1998, Len. One of them, who lived not far from you, was sentenced to seven years in prison for his antics, IIRC. IOW, if age is the issue, it's not the young hams who are the enforcement problem. AF6AY: "Age fourteen was an arbitrary age." Based on nothing but your own personal biases against young people: http://tinyurl.com/2akck9 AF6AY: "YOU perceived a (gasp!) 'personal insult' and you've been trying, trying, trying to gain retribution for that terrible, terrible PERCEIVED personal insult ever since." Nope, not me, Len. I'm just pointing out some facts. AF6AY: "Two children of age six BEAT you by seven years." So what? Nothing new to me; there were younger hams than I back in 1967. Those two children beat *you* to an amateur radio license by 68 years, Len. I beat you by 61 years. Seems to me you're the one with the "perceived personal insult" problem. AF6AY: "you couldn't comment on ANYTHING ELSE I wrote in 13 pages of Reply to Comments on Docket 98-143." I couldn't Reply Comment to your Reply Comment because you mailed them to FCC just before the deadline. Your other comments can be summed up in a single sentence: You wanted the Morse Code test to go away, because you don't like Morse Code. AF6AY: "I've never asked, suggested, or made a big thing out of age requirements to the FCC since." Not the point, Len. You made a big thing out of it in Reply Comments to FCC and in other discussions: http://tinyurl.com/yxq3rr AF6AY: "I've written a lot on the various dockets about radio regulations at the FCC." Yes, you have, and it's been all basically the same stuff. I feel sorry for the folks at FCC who had to read all that verbiage. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST FCC exam in the first week of March, 1956. At age 23." That's nice, Len. I took my first FCC exam when I was 13. Got my Extra at age 16 and my Second Phone at 18. Never went beyond Second Phone because I went into electrical engineering and didn't need it. Got my BSEE at age 22. MSEE took a little longer. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST amateur radio exam at age 74, passed it on the first try, ALMOST on the 51st anniversary of my first FCC test. Just WHAT do you have against that?" Nothing, Len. I'm just pointing out that you're a newcomer to amateur radio, that's all. Why does that bother you so much? It seems to really bother you that I've had almost 40 years' more experience in amateur radio than you, though. AF6AY: "you've kept harping me over the years that I "should" have gotten a ham license "first." [just like YOU did] I 'should" have taken a code test. [just as you did]" I've never said you "should" have done those things, Len. You're either mistaken or lying about that. What I and others have pointed out is that you *could* have done those things, but refused or failed to do them. Yet you want to be revered as The Authority On How Amateur Radio Should Be. COULD, not SHOULD. Big difference there. AF6AY: "WHY 'should' I have done what YOU did?" Well, (and I'm not saying you SHOULD have done what I did, only that you COULD have done something similar), consider this: If you had gotten an amateur radio license when *you* were 13, you'd have had a head start on getting into electronics, electrical engineering, radio, etc. Maybe you'd have gotten a scholarship to a major four-year University, or advanced training in the military based on your knowledge learned as a ham. You'd probably have been able to get that First Phone at 18 instead of 23. Also, if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, your comments to FCC and other hams would have carried more weight and been more convincing because you'd be arguing as someone with personal involvement and experience, not as an outsider. And if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, by now you'd have had over 70 years of enjoying amateur radio, instead of less than 2 years. Most of all, I think that if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13 you'd be a lot happier and more pleasant person today. But that's just my opinion. AF6AY: "You've tried to argue that YOU know more about the US military than I do" Where and when, Len? Do you mean the time when I corrected some of your mistakes about Soviet aircraft? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/a8cdd2dca86c2951?dmode=source my Reply http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/e56247af30b0c9a7?dmode=source Or maybe your classic post "dissing" another US Military Radio Operator's service: http://tinyurl.com/27fbwe which later led to your admission that your account of an artillery barrage was based only on others' experience: http://tinyurl.com/2tpq2l AF6AY: "I just cannot get up the same 'patriotism' for US amateur radio." That's fine, Len. Heck, it's taken you a year and a half just to put up a simple HF vertical, even with the help of contractors. Nobody says your interest must match others'. AF6AY: "It is a HOBBY activity, a recreational pursuit for personal pleasure." For you. Others are more involved, such as those who helped provide communications during natural disasters and the Shuttle debris recovery. AF6AY: "All that is required is to follow lawful regulations. In the current regulations for US amateurs there is NO regulation that mandates OOK CW modes over any other mode." So what? AF6AY: "There is NO regulation in all of Title 47 C.F.R. that states anyone MUST have an amateur radio license first before having any other radio license." And there is NO regulation banning young people from Amateur Radio just because they are young. AF6AY: "Yet you've kept on harping about what I "should" have done." Where? Show me a SPECIFIC example - a direct quote where I said such a thing. I don't think you can. AF6AY: "I got my first amateur radio license at age 74, rather well into retirement. Went for the top class and got it first try." Why did you wait so long, Len? I got the Novice, Technician, Advanced and Extra licenses on my first try, too. The testing for those licenses was somewhat more involved back when I took them, though. And I passed all of them except the Extra before I ever set foot in high school. AF6AY: "That raised a lot of hackles of the entrenched, brainwashed-as-a-teener crowd who said I "should have" come up through the ranks [just like they did]." No, it didn't raise any hackles. It surprised a few folks, and brought you a round of congratulations, but that's all. And it really wasn't much of a surprise, seeing as how you'd told the world you were "going for Extra out of the box" more than 7 years before you actually did: http://tinyurl.com/c5qyv AF6AY: "I'm not going to apologize to anyone." Well, you never let facts get in the way of a good rant, either. AF6AY: "What I did was what ANYONE else could do, either test." It's been possible to go for the top class of US amateur license on the first go for more than 30 years. AF6AY: "HOW I use that amateur license is treated the same way for my commercial license: Follow regulations. I "owe" exactly NOTHING to any group or 'amateur community' nor self-styled 'ham patriots' (and 'radio cops') who demand I do what they say with my amateur license." Nobody has "demanded" that you do anything other than follow the rules and good amateur practice, Len. What some folks wonder is what you've actually done, that's all. You don't talk about what you really do in ham radio, so it's a good bet the answer is "not much". AF6AY: "You live to ARGUE against those who don't side with your opinions." Not me, Len. You're describing yourself. All anyone has to do is to look up your many postings under various screen identities, or your massive verbiage to FCC to see that. AF6AY: "At the same time you hide behind a lot of stock (but empty) phrases of 'civility' and 'good manners' while you 'save' selected message 'examples' for some kind of posterity (as if Google doesn't have any TeraByte servers)." Not true, Len. Unlike you, I don't have to call people insulting names to make a point. Instead, I use facts and sound reasoning. To back up my reasoning, I've simply provided links to some of your past messages, posted in public forums for all to see. That's not wrong, illegal, or "uncivil". Don't you want people to know what you've written in the past? AF6AY: "You only 'saved' them to ressurect at a much later time to 'prove' a point that YOU are the uncivil one." You're saying that it's "uncivil" to point out what another has written in the past. That's simply not true, Len. I post the links to back up my reasoning with facts and actual quotes. If your arguments were valid, you could do the same thing. But you don't post links to things you claim I have written. I suspect that's because you know your claims are false. AF6AY: "Your other questions are just rewritten goads of the past so that you can set up to ARGUE something." Not at all. I just want to know what you, a newcomer, define as "standards and practices of the 1950s". I think the real reason you duck such questions is that they would show that the things you do in amateur radio, such as VHF FM and maybe HF SSB, with manufactured amateur radio equipment, are all right out of those very same "standards and practices of the 1950s" that you denigrate. If you're really proud of what you do in Amateur Radio, Len, why are you so angry, defensive and secretive about it? Can't you tolerate different opinions without calling people names? That's enough for now. The ARRL CW Sweepstakes starts late this afternoon, and I'm going to be in it. A friend has loaned me a nice top-of-the-line solid-state transceiver to check out for him, and maybe I'll use it for Sweepstakes. The 'phone weekend is coming up, too! My first CW Sweepstakes was in 1968 and I've only missed one in all that time. Oh and the Phillies won the World Series. Big celebration in this town of winners! 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dudes, I have an awesome idea, let's take all the post's from the careful how you speak article and make a Ham Spirit Banner Article. Gotta go, I'm making popcorn!! Happy Halloween. PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dag-gummit, I think the Youth is right here on this Site/Hobby. Right before my very own eyes and I didn't even see it! Dag-Gummit! You all are as silly as chrome paint! This hobby has Teen Spirit written all over it!! I don't know how I missed it. Another thing, Super-op is a Japenese Phrase meaning some kind of Japenese meaning OK. Hello? Geez? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| K6LHA | 2008-11-02 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| N2EY trotted out his "radio history for dummies" notebook, poison pen, and wrote: "You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that." Not by your personal experience. When 11m CB was created in 1958 you were about 5 years old. You had NO personal experience with the first five years of 11m CB. I did and millions of others did. You are only 'reporting' what you've seen on ham radio forums in the last two decades or so. .......... N2EY: "CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC." What something was "meant for" and ACTUAL USE can differ widely. In the first 5 years of 11m CB, the ACTUAL USE was for "personal communications," particularly in urban areas. What was unusual was that the average CB-er of that time was in the thirty-something age group, NOT youth. Contrary to politically-correct ham opinion, there was little REAL policing of CB by the FCC, there was NO widespread "shooting skip" and the "high power" CB amplifiers were extremely rare. That would continue for the next decade when the off-shore radio makers entered the market. Nearly ALL CB users were CASUAL users, except the truckers found that it was an excellent way to break the boredom of driving for hours on end. The only REAL "high power" users were those who bought General Radiotelephone transceivers, made in nearby Burbank, CA. "General" used a TV horizontal sweep tube for a final and had a built-in jumper to "allow high power operation when the FCC approves of that." The "high power" was about 25 to 30 W peak RF but still with down-modulation. Many who bought a General around here immediately did the jumper change or asked someone to do it for them. I never did that, Jimmie, don't start in with your usual accusatory allusions. General Radiotelephone didn't make it into big-time CB sales and tried to get into business radio. They moved from their second-floor Hq and assembly area on Burbank Boulevard some time in the late 1960s and might still be around somewhere in L.A. What is interesting is that General liked to brag about their partly-completed tower (for the future) but never completed it. That initial construction is still standing on the roof of their original business building. A post-production sound editing firm occupies the second floor now. While assembly was 100% done by workers on-site (all point-to-point hand wiring), components were the cheapest available. Esthetically, the exterior designs must have been conceived by color-blind elders without a trace of artistic sense. What got the Electronic Industries Association (EIA) in a dither was the flood of off-shore designed-and-made 11m CB sets in the 1960s. You don't realize that because you saw so little of it first-hand that nearly every USA radio maker had at least one 11m CB transceiver in their product line in the 1960s. All of those are long GONE and everything of what is left is made off-shore now. The "lack of popularity" came about simply because the market (largely supported by truckers) SATURATED. Saturation to the point of new sets just replacing old ones. Prompting/lobbying for more channels came about from manufacturing groups wanting to increase their edge in an already-dwindling market. Forty channels with dozens of users for each one in an urban area just isn't enough, even when some set designs used SSB techniques to break through. The EIA and other industry associations were trying to fight the flood of imports in the 1960s and into the 1970s. Some manufacturers bowed to the inevitable. An example is RCA Corporation announcing that all of their black-and-white TV models would be made off-shore from about 1973 and after (year approximate based on memories of then while working for RCA EASD in Van Nuys, CA; RCA TV division was in Indianapolis, IN). Today I think that ALL new TV receivers on the consumer market in the USA are made off-shore. ............... N2EY: "This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them." Sonny, all you've done is to keep alive the old-timer ham hatred and bigotry of CB that started when you were about 5 years old. You have NO first-hand experience in that and all you are doing is repeating what you've read on amateur radio forums. For example: N2EY: "Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era." You have a very mixed-up timeline. The CB market saturated a quarter century ago. Cellular telephony installations increased in earnest in the 1990s, can be seen today all along major highways of the USA. The Internet went public in 1991 but took about four years to make enough steam to really roll out. Had you ever been OUT on the highways of the USA any time from the 1970s to the present you would have experienced - first hand - that there are FEW who bother driving at ANY posted speed limit. Truckers have continued to cruise at 70 MPH despite any "ban" on maximum speed at any time. That is said NOT to condone such behavior, simply reporting what is atually done, as observed first-hand, ON the highways. Following your pattern of messaging, you will now come back with a LECTURE on driving, safe speeds, etc. Give up the lecturing, Jimmie. ............ N2EY: "You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it?" Wrong again. Not past tense. My E.F.Johnson Viking Messenger (bought at Henry Radio in Los Angeles in early 1958) is gathering dust on a shelf in the workshop. So is a Bendix Marine Division tube type made OEM by some other firm (half-price sale by a Bendix rep friend). They might still work. Old designs, needed crystal control on each channel, both Rx and Tx. Vibrator HV supply in both, NOT reliable, never were for mobile radios. Nobody wants such things now. Based on contemporary CB transceivers of the time, BOTH are average size, not "miniaturized." I am not "miniaturized" either and still operational. Any more cracks? ........... Try, please TRY to get on the Article SUBJECT, Jimmie. The subject is Bringing Youth Into Amateur Radio. What youth have YOU enticed into ham radio? Did they actually enter after you LECTURED them using mixed-up timeline "history" cribs? I haven't enticed any youth into amateur radio. I've enticed two younger people to enter the electronics industry and both did, are still working in it. But, as you keep reminding everyone, I am a "newcomer" to amateur radio and therefore can't possibly know anything. <shrug> I'm acquainted with a sizeable number of non-radio people, including some under 18 years of age. I can understand a bit better what the general group of young people prefer, see it reflected in the marketplace and advertising, with less bias than the average parent can. In general those younger people want to do what intrigues them, are not enthused by the same things that enticed a fifty-something ham 40 years ago. Yet, fifty-something (and older) marketing people CAN get them enthused. There's a lesson to be learned in that, subliminal perhaps, but what Don Keith, N4KC, alluded to in his message. Don IS in marketing. One HAS to see into young people's minds, not force them in with what YOU think they should know. Certainly NOT with what was written by the ARRL a half century ago. Len, AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' ... Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably." You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that. CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC. And for the first few years, 11 meter CB wasn't too bad. CB users followed the rules and enjoyed their radios. After all, the FCC had set up the rules and would enforce them - right? But by the late 1960s, some CBers were simply ignoring the FCC rules. They'd run illegal high power to big antennas, contact distant stations, intentionally interfere with others, etc. They began to adopt "handles" (pseudonyms) and use phony accents to hide their real identities. Many simply didn't bother with licenses at all. Before long, the rules-following CB users were completely outnumbered, and soon disappeared. FCC finally gave up trying to license cb users completely. The oil crises of the 1970s, and the resulting 55 mph speed limit, were a major promotion for cb in the 1970s. CB became a way for truckers and others to avoid law enforcement officers and the speed limit, to the point that movies were made glorifying this aspect of CB. What really bothered many hams was the fact that these antics were not confined to the 23 channels of 11 meters. The use of illegal and often poorly-designed-and-operated high power amplifiers by cb users resulted in TV interference and other RFI problems. These problems were often blamed on hams with perfectly clean and legal transmitters, because the hams were easily located, identified themselves on the air and were known to FCC. To add to the mess, some CB users modified their radios to operate outside the legal CB channels, invading the allocations of other radio services near 27 MHz, including the 10 meter ham band. This sort of activity, called "HFing" or "freebanding", became so prevalent that in 1978 FCC passed regulations against the sale of various forms of RF power amplifiers. These regulations had little effect on the illegals, though. In the 1970s, the EIA (a manufacturer's group) petitioned FCC to reallocate the 220 MHz ham band to a new "Class E" CB service, using FM on many more channels. Both 11 meter CB users and hams opposed this, for obvious reasons. (The hams didn't want to lose another band while the CB users didn't want to have to replace practically their entire setups, and give up much of the long-distance capabilities of 11 meters). This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them. Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era. The ironic thing is that, when CB had licenses, there was a minimum-age requirement for the license. 15 years of age, IIRC. You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-10-31 AB7E posted on October 30, 2008: "If 30 years ago you had the choice between a hobby that mostly just allowed you to talk into a mic (or tap out CW) when the band was open (and only to those who had licenses) and required you to have a bunch of different unique hardware (including outdoor antennas that upset the neighbors), versus being able to speak with all of your friends anytime with a cellphone smaller than your wallet or play interactive games online with stunning graphics (on a piece of hardware you already have and complete with free group voice chat) anytime with anyone anywhere in the world ... which would you have chosen?? I sincerely doubt it would have been ham radio." In all honesty I have to agree with that. Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' Before that end-of-the-1950s period the 'radio' interest had been with 'Hi-Fi' and the excellence of recordings on long-play vinyl grooved discs, then stereo tape, and finally, the beginning of widespread stereo FM broadcasting. ............. AB7E: "And of course this has nothing to do with the "laziness" or "immediate gratification" grumpy old men (ham radio is full of them) like to attribute to youngsters. Check out how many retired folks of both sexes are active participants in World of Warcraft or Second Life ... they dwarf late-in-life recruits to ham radio by orders of magnitude." I don't doubt it. Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably. In the next semi-niche hobby, personal computers, the BBS was born in the late 1970s and brought together a way-wider group of social interacters. BBSers who interacted in-person as well as on the phone lines with computer-modems were more homogenous representatives of the population. Few were radio-active but all were eager to try out this brand new medium of communications. In urban areas this kept on expanding until the Internet went public in 1991 and provided the first widespread international communications participation by computer-modem. In the 1980s the computer hobbyist community was rivaling amateur radio numbers, having more special-interest independent computer hobbyist magazines than were published in the USA at the time. By 1990 the cell phone was becoming smaller and less expensive and growing all over the country. In a decade it would become so small and so numerous that one in ten Americans were cell phone subscribers. By 2004 one in three Americans had cell phone subscriptions; teen-agers were able to use them to interact with other teeners and the 'texting' craze had begun. Why not? The price was far lower than portable ham gear, could be carried in a shirt pocket or small purse and used much without racking up a sizeable phone bill. ............ AB7E: "I would gladly try to mentor anyone who showed a budding interest in ham radio, but I don't see the point in trying to be an evangelist for the hobby." I would rather evangelize the electronics industry to younger people. It is far bigger than amateurism in radio and has FAR greater scope and variation on what it can do. It can also provide a very decent wage and be a fun job at the same time. Amateur radio is a niche hobby and the old-timers have managed to both stratify it and mummify it in old standards and practices suitable for long-past times. For younger people, the rationale that a ham license lets you "advance the state of the radio art and talk to foreign folk for 'free' on one's own station" is trite and dated. It might have worked in the 1960s but this is four decades (and two generations) later. For one thing it is definitely NOT 'free' since a decent station for HF is going to cost more than a complete PC set-up. For another, HF is NOT that reliable 24/7 and the average lower-power HF ham bands are at the mercy of the ionosphere. The only 'advancing the art' in HF radio is inside the radios and that technology has almost saturated. .............. AB7E: "Like NN4RH says, kids aren't idiots (or lazy when it comes to interesting things), and if they have any interest in what ham radio has to offer they will find it." Absolutely true. Based on my 'beginner, newbie' life experience over the last 76 years, EVERY old-generation curmudgeon gets all disgusted about the do-nothing younger generation. They just won't recognize that that THEY were once considered 'do-nothing' young wastrels by generation-older curmudgeons of their day. :-) I've read of the same attitudes prevalent in most societies over previous centuries...Pompeii curmudgeons were probably cussing THEIR do-nothing young folks just before Vesuvious blew its top and buried everyone. :-) .............. AB7E: "Most of this talk about enticing young folks into the hobby (and it is just a hobby ... it isn't the path to heaven) simply sounds to me like people in a niche activity looking for validation. Why else would you consider it to be important?" Much of the TALK is simply rationalization. On the other hand, if license numbers start to drop again and newcomers don't replace the usual human-attrition expirations, that WILL be noticed by commercial groups that might want to use ham bands for other purposes. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : AB7E on 2008-10-31 KE7UXE: "Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal." How do you figure? That isn't even remotely true. Not only is global internet voice chat full duplex, FM quality, real time, and free ... people can use it while collaborating in an online game, or while working together on a drawing or file, or while streaming music to each other. None of that is new, either ... it's been available for years from multiple sources. This is exactly what I mean. Hams lament that kids today are too lazy and disconnected with technology to discover ham radio, and the reality is that hams are too disconnected to understand the kinds of alternatives for kids that make ham radio merely a legacy curiosity for them. Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 "ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board." No it isn't...it is giving them friends to text who happen to be in Estonia, Spain and Japan. Sadly, for many the alure of ham radio is the gear. IMO it ought to be the opportunity to talk with a wide variety of people from all over the world. Ham radio is a social activity. That is what kids might like. If later they get interested in the equipment, so be it. Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal. Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| AB7E | 2008-11-02 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| KE7UXE: "It is a myth to think that the average youth is sitting on a computer speaking with other people all over the world. I mean really. They carry a phone in their pocket with which they can call their friends yet spend most of their time texting one-another. It is not a usual activity for a kid to initiate a discussion with a total stranger outside the context of some well defined activity. It's not a myth at all, but I'll agree that it's within the context of a defined activity, usually a video game or social networking site. But you're actually reinforcing my point. Kids have very little interest in opening a discussion with some ephemeral person they don't know and have nothing in common with. They prefer to chat with friends, and they often do so via text messaging for the same reason the rest of us do .. it's easier to multitask or converse in private. Kids mostly want to stay connected with their friends, or at least with other kids who have similar interests. Ham radio doesn't do that, and just about everything else ... cell phones, text messaging, Ventrilo (look it up), email, etc ... does it just fine with no license or hardware hassles. Stand outside your local high school and take a survey of the kids passing by. Give them your pitch on ham radio and keep track of those that don't look at you like you're on crack. I'll bet not one in a hundred shows the slightest interest in what ham radio has to offer. I can identify a simpler and more effective means for kids to accomplish every single thing we cherish in ham radio, short of experimenting with electronic circuits that aren't job-relevant anymore anyway. Prove me wrong and try to identify some function (communication, competition, intellectual discovery, social interaction, etc) that ham radio does better than computers, internet, or cell phones. Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-11-01 I work on the internet everyday and all day. I use the latest internet technology. It is very different from ham radio. Sure I can arrange voice commo with others but it is not the norm. It is a myth to think that the average youth is sitting on a computer speaking with other people all over the world. I mean really. They carry a phone in thier pocket with which they can call their friends yet spend most of their time texting one-another. It is not a usual activity for a kid to initiate a discussion with a total stranger outside the context of some well defined activity. The internet and ham radio are as different for kids as they are for us. If we do a good job of showing young people how independent they can be on the radio they will join our ranks in sufficient numbers to ensure the future of the service. Sometimes I cruise the bands passing by "another geezer". I would very much enjoy talking to some young people. They are interesting. Perhaps we could all work on that in ourselves. Reply to a comment by : K6JPA on 2008-11-01 Plankeye, we may not know who you are, but thanks for the grins over the years. You do have a most interesting sense of humor... Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-01 You usually wouldn't bother? I almost spit my teeth out when I seen that. Dag-gummitt again!! You got more angles than a Gazebo!! PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-01 I usually wouldn't bother--but I'm going to make an exception. Hey plank--Didn't you see the smiley at the end of the sentence? Or are you just so plain dumb that you don't know what it means? Its obvious its the latter. Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-01 THIS IS K1CJS: You know what? I'm here to read articles and their comments--not books. It would be nice if comments could be kept shorter--so other people can understand 'em. ;-) ____________________________________________________ THIS IS PLANKEYE: Be nice and treat people with respect! Short comment, did you understand it? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-01 You know what? I'm here to read articles and their comments--not books. It would be nice if comments could be kept shorter--so other people can understand 'em. ;-) Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS." N2EY replied: "Well, you should know, Len, being a newcomer to ham radio yourself." AF6AY: "trying to diss me as you have for years over on rec.radio.amateur.policy." I'm not trying to "diss" you, Len. I'm simply pointing out a fact: You're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I became a 'newcomer' to HF radio on the first week in February, 1953,.....55 1/2 years ago. There is NOTHING in or about amateur radio that is SO unique that 'all' who enter are 'always beginners.'" Nobody said anyhting like that, Len. What I wrote was the fact that you're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I've legally operated radios in seven other radio services before I got my amateur radio license." Sure - a cb, a cell phone, somebody else's marine radio, somebody else's aircraft radio, and some radios in the military as part of a team of personnel trained for the job. But you're still a newcomer to amateur radio. That's not a "diss", it's just a fact. N2EY: "It's odd, though, that you'd be yelling for newcomers when it was you who asked the FCC to create a minimum-age requirement of 14 years for all amateur radio licenses." AF6AY: "What you are referring to is my Comment on FCC Docket 98-143 that was accepted by them on 13 January 1999, two days before their stated end of all Comments." That was a Reply Comment, Len. AF6AY: "Anyone can access my Reply to Comments via the FCC ECFS." Here's a link: http://tinyurl.com/y6uhr3 AF6AY: "I never 'asked' the FCC specifically for that age limit." Yes, you did, Len. AF6AY: "It was a SUGGESTION based on the cute, cute story in the ARRL Letter showing two six-year-olds who passed (respectively) the Technician and Novice exams." It was a request that the rules be changed to ban anyone under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Why the licensing of six-year-olds bothered you, a non-amateur well past the age of 60 at the time, remains a mystery. This thread is about "bringing youth into amateur radio", and you seem to want to ban a considerable part of the youth of the USA from it. You even accused the ARRL VEs of fraud: http://tinyurl.com/2k5mb5 Say - it was an ARRL VE session where you earned your amateur license, wasn't it? AF6AY: "It is all explained in my Reply to Comments. A SUGGESTION to restore a lower age limit, to stop CHILDREN from being legally able to interfere worldwide on HF all by themselves." Not just HF. Your request was to ban all persons under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Yet you could not cite one case - not one single case! - of interference or other problems caused by the youth of a US amateur radio operator. Not one case. Yet you would ban all under 14 years of age, if you had your way, just because they are children, regardless of the tests they passed. In fact, if one bothers to look at the FCC Enforcement actions, the worst offenders in the realm of interference are people of *your* age group in 1998, Len. One of them, who lived not far from you, was sentenced to seven years in prison for his antics, IIRC. IOW, if age is the issue, it's not the young hams who are the enforcement problem. AF6AY: "Age fourteen was an arbitrary age." Based on nothing but your own personal biases against young people: http://tinyurl.com/2akck9 AF6AY: "YOU perceived a (gasp!) 'personal insult' and you've been trying, trying, trying to gain retribution for that terrible, terrible PERCEIVED personal insult ever since." Nope, not me, Len. I'm just pointing out some facts. AF6AY: "Two children of age six BEAT you by seven years." So what? Nothing new to me; there were younger hams than I back in 1967. Those two children beat *you* to an amateur radio license by 68 years, Len. I beat you by 61 years. Seems to me you're the one with the "perceived personal insult" problem. AF6AY: "you couldn't comment on ANYTHING ELSE I wrote in 13 pages of Reply to Comments on Docket 98-143." I couldn't Reply Comment to your Reply Comment because you mailed them to FCC just before the deadline. Your other comments can be summed up in a single sentence: You wanted the Morse Code test to go away, because you don't like Morse Code. AF6AY: "I've never asked, suggested, or made a big thing out of age requirements to the FCC since." Not the point, Len. You made a big thing out of it in Reply Comments to FCC and in other discussions: http://tinyurl.com/yxq3rr AF6AY: "I've written a lot on the various dockets about radio regulations at the FCC." Yes, you have, and it's been all basically the same stuff. I feel sorry for the folks at FCC who had to read all that verbiage. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST FCC exam in the first week of March, 1956. At age 23." That's nice, Len. I took my first FCC exam when I was 13. Got my Extra at age 16 and my Second Phone at 18. Never went beyond Second Phone because I went into electrical engineering and didn't need it. Got my BSEE at age 22. MSEE took a little longer. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST amateur radio exam at age 74, passed it on the first try, ALMOST on the 51st anniversary of my first FCC test. Just WHAT do you have against that?" Nothing, Len. I'm just pointing out that you're a newcomer to amateur radio, that's all. Why does that bother you so much? It seems to really bother you that I've had almost 40 years' more experience in amateur radio than you, though. AF6AY: "you've kept harping me over the years that I "should" have gotten a ham license "first." [just like YOU did] I 'should" have taken a code test. [just as you did]" I've never said you "should" have done those things, Len. You're either mistaken or lying about that. What I and others have pointed out is that you *could* have done those things, but refused or failed to do them. Yet you want to be revered as The Authority On How Amateur Radio Should Be. COULD, not SHOULD. Big difference there. AF6AY: "WHY 'should' I have done what YOU did?" Well, (and I'm not saying you SHOULD have done what I did, only that you COULD have done something similar), consider this: If you had gotten an amateur radio license when *you* were 13, you'd have had a head start on getting into electronics, electrical engineering, radio, etc. Maybe you'd have gotten a scholarship to a major four-year University, or advanced training in the military based on your knowledge learned as a ham. You'd probably have been able to get that First Phone at 18 instead of 23. Also, if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, your comments to FCC and other hams would have carried more weight and been more convincing because you'd be arguing as someone with personal involvement and experience, not as an outsider. And if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, by now you'd have had over 70 years of enjoying amateur radio, instead of less than 2 years. Most of all, I think that if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13 you'd be a lot happier and more pleasant person today. But that's just my opinion. AF6AY: "You've tried to argue that YOU know more about the US military than I do" Where and when, Len? Do you mean the time when I corrected some of your mistakes about Soviet aircraft? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/a8cdd2dca86c2951?dmode=source my Reply http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/e56247af30b0c9a7?dmode=source Or maybe your classic post "dissing" another US Military Radio Operator's service: http://tinyurl.com/27fbwe which later led to your admission that your account of an artillery barrage was based only on others' experience: http://tinyurl.com/2tpq2l AF6AY: "I just cannot get up the same 'patriotism' for US amateur radio." That's fine, Len. Heck, it's taken you a year and a half just to put up a simple HF vertical, even with the help of contractors. Nobody says your interest must match others'. AF6AY: "It is a HOBBY activity, a recreational pursuit for personal pleasure." For you. Others are more involved, such as those who helped provide communications during natural disasters and the Shuttle debris recovery. AF6AY: "All that is required is to follow lawful regulations. In the current regulations for US amateurs there is NO regulation that mandates OOK CW modes over any other mode." So what? AF6AY: "There is NO regulation in all of Title 47 C.F.R. that states anyone MUST have an amateur radio license first before having any other radio license." And there is NO regulation banning young people from Amateur Radio just because they are young. AF6AY: "Yet you've kept on harping about what I "should" have done." Where? Show me a SPECIFIC example - a direct quote where I said such a thing. I don't think you can. AF6AY: "I got my first amateur radio license at age 74, rather well into retirement. Went for the top class and got it first try." Why did you wait so long, Len? I got the Novice, Technician, Advanced and Extra licenses on my first try, too. The testing for those licenses was somewhat more involved back when I took them, though. And I passed all of them except the Extra before I ever set foot in high school. AF6AY: "That raised a lot of hackles of the entrenched, brainwashed-as-a-teener crowd who said I "should have" come up through the ranks [just like they did]." No, it didn't raise any hackles. It surprised a few folks, and brought you a round of congratulations, but that's all. And it really wasn't much of a surprise, seeing as how you'd told the world you were "going for Extra out of the box" more than 7 years before you actually did: http://tinyurl.com/c5qyv AF6AY: "I'm not going to apologize to anyone." Well, you never let facts get in the way of a good rant, either. AF6AY: "What I did was what ANYONE else could do, either test." It's been possible to go for the top class of US amateur license on the first go for more than 30 years. AF6AY: "HOW I use that amateur license is treated the same way for my commercial license: Follow regulations. I "owe" exactly NOTHING to any group or 'amateur community' nor self-styled 'ham patriots' (and 'radio cops') who demand I do what they say with my amateur license." Nobody has "demanded" that you do anything other than follow the rules and good amateur practice, Len. What some folks wonder is what you've actually done, that's all. You don't talk about what you really do in ham radio, so it's a good bet the answer is "not much". AF6AY: "You live to ARGUE against those who don't side with your opinions." Not me, Len. You're describing yourself. All anyone has to do is to look up your many postings under various screen identities, or your massive verbiage to FCC to see that. AF6AY: "At the same time you hide behind a lot of stock (but empty) phrases of 'civility' and 'good manners' while you 'save' selected message 'examples' for some kind of posterity (as if Google doesn't have any TeraByte servers)." Not true, Len. Unlike you, I don't have to call people insulting names to make a point. Instead, I use facts and sound reasoning. To back up my reasoning, I've simply provided links to some of your past messages, posted in public forums for all to see. That's not wrong, illegal, or "uncivil". Don't you want people to know what you've written in the past? AF6AY: "You only 'saved' them to ressurect at a much later time to 'prove' a point that YOU are the uncivil one." You're saying that it's "uncivil" to point out what another has written in the past. That's simply not true, Len. I post the links to back up my reasoning with facts and actual quotes. If your arguments were valid, you could do the same thing. But you don't post links to things you claim I have written. I suspect that's because you know your claims are false. AF6AY: "Your other questions are just rewritten goads of the past so that you can set up to ARGUE something." Not at all. I just want to know what you, a newcomer, define as "standards and practices of the 1950s". I think the real reason you duck such questions is that they would show that the things you do in amateur radio, such as VHF FM and maybe HF SSB, with manufactured amateur radio equipment, are all right out of those very same "standards and practices of the 1950s" that you denigrate. If you're really proud of what you do in Amateur Radio, Len, why are you so angry, defensive and secretive about it? Can't you tolerate different opinions without calling people names? That's enough for now. The ARRL CW Sweepstakes starts late this afternoon, and I'm going to be in it. A friend has loaned me a nice top-of-the-line solid-state transceiver to check out for him, and maybe I'll use it for Sweepstakes. The 'phone weekend is coming up, too! My first CW Sweepstakes was in 1968 and I've only missed one in all that time. Oh and the Phillies won the World Series. Big celebration in this town of winners! 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dudes, I have an awesome idea, let's take all the post's from the careful how you speak article and make a Ham Spirit Banner Article. Gotta go, I'm making popcorn!! Happy Halloween. PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dag-gummit, I think the Youth is right here on this Site/Hobby. Right before my very own eyes and I didn't even see it! Dag-Gummit! You all are as silly as chrome paint! This hobby has Teen Spirit written all over it!! I don't know how I missed it. Another thing, Super-op is a Japenese Phrase meaning some kind of Japenese meaning OK. Hello? Geez? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| W7RSL | 2008-11-02 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| My son just turned 13, his interest started with mine. Since he passed his general, he is studing for his extra. Although his interest in the IRLP is great, he likes HF ssb and to understand and help build and tune HF antennas. In Las Vegas, the youth ham numbers are growing fast. My son Jeremy (KE7WNY), talks to 3-4 other hams his age, he is recruiting his friends at school. Don't write off radio and electronics just yet. Of the young people I have communicated with, most are very into tech stuff and mature for there age. These hams are the future of our hobby, welcome them when you hear them. Also, I don't think age is an issue, considering I monitored a mature canadian ham cussing and acting like a CB'er (14.245) and several US hams double and tripple keying on each other cussing right back...Who are the children ? 73 Reply to a comment by : KG4TKC on 2008-11-02 Hi KE5WRC,and welcome to Amateur Radio. I wish you many happy years in this fun hobby. Thanks for your view on this topic,nice to see a young person address 'youth in amateur radio' instead of a pack of retired fellows,,lol. 73 and GL to you in your future. KG4TKC Reply to a comment by : KE5WRC on 2008-11-02 Speaking as a new youth in ham radio, i can truly say that the thing that got me into ham was one on one with a ham i work with. this is what is going to get the youth of today into ham. tell them your stories of talking to someone in africa, or asia over the radio waves without using the internet, if they seem interested, show them. | ||
| KG4TKC | 2008-11-02 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Hi KE5WRC,and welcome to Amateur Radio. I wish you many happy years in this fun hobby. Thanks for your view on this topic,nice to see a young person address 'youth in amateur radio' instead of a pack of retired fellows,,lol. 73 and GL to you in your future. KG4TKC Reply to a comment by : KE5WRC on 2008-11-02 Speaking as a new youth in ham radio, i can truly say that the thing that got me into ham was one on one with a ham i work with. this is what is going to get the youth of today into ham. tell them your stories of talking to someone in africa, or asia over the radio waves without using the internet, if they seem interested, show them. | ||
| KE5WRC | 2008-11-02 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Speaking as a new youth in ham radio, i can truly say that the thing that got me into ham was one on one with a ham i work with. this is what is going to get the youth of today into ham. tell them your stories of talking to someone in africa, or asia over the radio waves without using the internet, if they seem interested, show them. | ||
| KC7MF | 2008-11-01 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| I work on the internet everyday and all day. I use the latest internet technology. It is very different from ham radio. Sure I can arrange voice commo with others but it is not the norm. It is a myth to think that the average youth is sitting on a computer speaking with other people all over the world. I mean really. They carry a phone in thier pocket with which they can call their friends yet spend most of their time texting one-another. It is not a usual activity for a kid to initiate a discussion with a total stranger outside the context of some well defined activity. The internet and ham radio are as different for kids as they are for us. If we do a good job of showing young people how independent they can be on the radio they will join our ranks in sufficient numbers to ensure the future of the service. Sometimes I cruise the bands passing by "another geezer". I would very much enjoy talking to some young people. They are interesting. Perhaps we could all work on that in ourselves. Reply to a comment by : K6JPA on 2008-11-01 Plankeye, we may not know who you are, but thanks for the grins over the years. You do have a most interesting sense of humor... Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-01 You usually wouldn't bother? I almost spit my teeth out when I seen that. Dag-gummitt again!! You got more angles than a Gazebo!! PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-01 I usually wouldn't bother--but I'm going to make an exception. Hey plank--Didn't you see the smiley at the end of the sentence? Or are you just so plain dumb that you don't know what it means? Its obvious its the latter. Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-01 THIS IS K1CJS: You know what? I'm here to read articles and their comments--not books. It would be nice if comments could be kept shorter--so other people can understand 'em. ;-) ____________________________________________________ THIS IS PLANKEYE: Be nice and treat people with respect! Short comment, did you understand it? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-01 You know what? I'm here to read articles and their comments--not books. It would be nice if comments could be kept shorter--so other people can understand 'em. ;-) Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS." N2EY replied: "Well, you should know, Len, being a newcomer to ham radio yourself." AF6AY: "trying to diss me as you have for years over on rec.radio.amateur.policy." I'm not trying to "diss" you, Len. I'm simply pointing out a fact: You're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I became a 'newcomer' to HF radio on the first week in February, 1953,.....55 1/2 years ago. There is NOTHING in or about amateur radio that is SO unique that 'all' who enter are 'always beginners.'" Nobody said anyhting like that, Len. What I wrote was the fact that you're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I've legally operated radios in seven other radio services before I got my amateur radio license." Sure - a cb, a cell phone, somebody else's marine radio, somebody else's aircraft radio, and some radios in the military as part of a team of personnel trained for the job. But you're still a newcomer to amateur radio. That's not a "diss", it's just a fact. N2EY: "It's odd, though, that you'd be yelling for newcomers when it was you who asked the FCC to create a minimum-age requirement of 14 years for all amateur radio licenses." AF6AY: "What you are referring to is my Comment on FCC Docket 98-143 that was accepted by them on 13 January 1999, two days before their stated end of all Comments." That was a Reply Comment, Len. AF6AY: "Anyone can access my Reply to Comments via the FCC ECFS." Here's a link: http://tinyurl.com/y6uhr3 AF6AY: "I never 'asked' the FCC specifically for that age limit." Yes, you did, Len. AF6AY: "It was a SUGGESTION based on the cute, cute story in the ARRL Letter showing two six-year-olds who passed (respectively) the Technician and Novice exams." It was a request that the rules be changed to ban anyone under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Why the licensing of six-year-olds bothered you, a non-amateur well past the age of 60 at the time, remains a mystery. This thread is about "bringing youth into amateur radio", and you seem to want to ban a considerable part of the youth of the USA from it. You even accused the ARRL VEs of fraud: http://tinyurl.com/2k5mb5 Say - it was an ARRL VE session where you earned your amateur license, wasn't it? AF6AY: "It is all explained in my Reply to Comments. A SUGGESTION to restore a lower age limit, to stop CHILDREN from being legally able to interfere worldwide on HF all by themselves." Not just HF. Your request was to ban all persons under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Yet you could not cite one case - not one single case! - of interference or other problems caused by the youth of a US amateur radio operator. Not one case. Yet you would ban all under 14 years of age, if you had your way, just because they are children, regardless of the tests they passed. In fact, if one bothers to look at the FCC Enforcement actions, the worst offenders in the realm of interference are people of *your* age group in 1998, Len. One of them, who lived not far from you, was sentenced to seven years in prison for his antics, IIRC. IOW, if age is the issue, it's not the young hams who are the enforcement problem. AF6AY: "Age fourteen was an arbitrary age." Based on nothing but your own personal biases against young people: http://tinyurl.com/2akck9 AF6AY: "YOU perceived a (gasp!) 'personal insult' and you've been trying, trying, trying to gain retribution for that terrible, terrible PERCEIVED personal insult ever since." Nope, not me, Len. I'm just pointing out some facts. AF6AY: "Two children of age six BEAT you by seven years." So what? Nothing new to me; there were younger hams than I back in 1967. Those two children beat *you* to an amateur radio license by 68 years, Len. I beat you by 61 years. Seems to me you're the one with the "perceived personal insult" problem. AF6AY: "you couldn't comment on ANYTHING ELSE I wrote in 13 pages of Reply to Comments on Docket 98-143." I couldn't Reply Comment to your Reply Comment because you mailed them to FCC just before the deadline. Your other comments can be summed up in a single sentence: You wanted the Morse Code test to go away, because you don't like Morse Code. AF6AY: "I've never asked, suggested, or made a big thing out of age requirements to the FCC since." Not the point, Len. You made a big thing out of it in Reply Comments to FCC and in other discussions: http://tinyurl.com/yxq3rr AF6AY: "I've written a lot on the various dockets about radio regulations at the FCC." Yes, you have, and it's been all basically the same stuff. I feel sorry for the folks at FCC who had to read all that verbiage. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST FCC exam in the first week of March, 1956. At age 23." That's nice, Len. I took my first FCC exam when I was 13. Got my Extra at age 16 and my Second Phone at 18. Never went beyond Second Phone because I went into electrical engineering and didn't need it. Got my BSEE at age 22. MSEE took a little longer. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST amateur radio exam at age 74, passed it on the first try, ALMOST on the 51st anniversary of my first FCC test. Just WHAT do you have against that?" Nothing, Len. I'm just pointing out that you're a newcomer to amateur radio, that's all. Why does that bother you so much? It seems to really bother you that I've had almost 40 years' more experience in amateur radio than you, though. AF6AY: "you've kept harping me over the years that I "should" have gotten a ham license "first." [just like YOU did] I 'should" have taken a code test. [just as you did]" I've never said you "should" have done those things, Len. You're either mistaken or lying about that. What I and others have pointed out is that you *could* have done those things, but refused or failed to do them. Yet you want to be revered as The Authority On How Amateur Radio Should Be. COULD, not SHOULD. Big difference there. AF6AY: "WHY 'should' I have done what YOU did?" Well, (and I'm not saying you SHOULD have done what I did, only that you COULD have done something similar), consider this: If you had gotten an amateur radio license when *you* were 13, you'd have had a head start on getting into electronics, electrical engineering, radio, etc. Maybe you'd have gotten a scholarship to a major four-year University, or advanced training in the military based on your knowledge learned as a ham. You'd probably have been able to get that First Phone at 18 instead of 23. Also, if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, your comments to FCC and other hams would have carried more weight and been more convincing because you'd be arguing as someone with personal involvement and experience, not as an outsider. And if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, by now you'd have had over 70 years of enjoying amateur radio, instead of less than 2 years. Most of all, I think that if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13 you'd be a lot happier and more pleasant person today. But that's just my opinion. AF6AY: "You've tried to argue that YOU know more about the US military than I do" Where and when, Len? Do you mean the time when I corrected some of your mistakes about Soviet aircraft? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/a8cdd2dca86c2951?dmode=source my Reply http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/e56247af30b0c9a7?dmode=source Or maybe your classic post "dissing" another US Military Radio Operator's service: http://tinyurl.com/27fbwe which later led to your admission that your account of an artillery barrage was based only on others' experience: http://tinyurl.com/2tpq2l AF6AY: "I just cannot get up the same 'patriotism' for US amateur radio." That's fine, Len. Heck, it's taken you a year and a half just to put up a simple HF vertical, even with the help of contractors. Nobody says your interest must match others'. AF6AY: "It is a HOBBY activity, a recreational pursuit for personal pleasure." For you. Others are more involved, such as those who helped provide communications during natural disasters and the Shuttle debris recovery. AF6AY: "All that is required is to follow lawful regulations. In the current regulations for US amateurs there is NO regulation that mandates OOK CW modes over any other mode." So what? AF6AY: "There is NO regulation in all of Title 47 C.F.R. that states anyone MUST have an amateur radio license first before having any other radio license." And there is NO regulation banning young people from Amateur Radio just because they are young. AF6AY: "Yet you've kept on harping about what I "should" have done." Where? Show me a SPECIFIC example - a direct quote where I said such a thing. I don't think you can. AF6AY: "I got my first amateur radio license at age 74, rather well into retirement. Went for the top class and got it first try." Why did you wait so long, Len? I got the Novice, Technician, Advanced and Extra licenses on my first try, too. The testing for those licenses was somewhat more involved back when I took them, though. And I passed all of them except the Extra before I ever set foot in high school. AF6AY: "That raised a lot of hackles of the entrenched, brainwashed-as-a-teener crowd who said I "should have" come up through the ranks [just like they did]." No, it didn't raise any hackles. It surprised a few folks, and brought you a round of congratulations, but that's all. And it really wasn't much of a surprise, seeing as how you'd told the world you were "going for Extra out of the box" more than 7 years before you actually did: http://tinyurl.com/c5qyv AF6AY: "I'm not going to apologize to anyone." Well, you never let facts get in the way of a good rant, either. AF6AY: "What I did was what ANYONE else could do, either test." It's been possible to go for the top class of US amateur license on the first go for more than 30 years. AF6AY: "HOW I use that amateur license is treated the same way for my commercial license: Follow regulations. I "owe" exactly NOTHING to any group or 'amateur community' nor self-styled 'ham patriots' (and 'radio cops') who demand I do what they say with my amateur license." Nobody has "demanded" that you do anything other than follow the rules and good amateur practice, Len. What some folks wonder is what you've actually done, that's all. You don't talk about what you really do in ham radio, so it's a good bet the answer is "not much". AF6AY: "You live to ARGUE against those who don't side with your opinions." Not me, Len. You're describing yourself. All anyone has to do is to look up your many postings under various screen identities, or your massive verbiage to FCC to see that. AF6AY: "At the same time you hide behind a lot of stock (but empty) phrases of 'civility' and 'good manners' while you 'save' selected message 'examples' for some kind of posterity (as if Google doesn't have any TeraByte servers)." Not true, Len. Unlike you, I don't have to call people insulting names to make a point. Instead, I use facts and sound reasoning. To back up my reasoning, I've simply provided links to some of your past messages, posted in public forums for all to see. That's not wrong, illegal, or "uncivil". Don't you want people to know what you've written in the past? AF6AY: "You only 'saved' them to ressurect at a much later time to 'prove' a point that YOU are the uncivil one." You're saying that it's "uncivil" to point out what another has written in the past. That's simply not true, Len. I post the links to back up my reasoning with facts and actual quotes. If your arguments were valid, you could do the same thing. But you don't post links to things you claim I have written. I suspect that's because you know your claims are false. AF6AY: "Your other questions are just rewritten goads of the past so that you can set up to ARGUE something." Not at all. I just want to know what you, a newcomer, define as "standards and practices of the 1950s". I think the real reason you duck such questions is that they would show that the things you do in amateur radio, such as VHF FM and maybe HF SSB, with manufactured amateur radio equipment, are all right out of those very same "standards and practices of the 1950s" that you denigrate. If you're really proud of what you do in Amateur Radio, Len, why are you so angry, defensive and secretive about it? Can't you tolerate different opinions without calling people names? That's enough for now. The ARRL CW Sweepstakes starts late this afternoon, and I'm going to be in it. A friend has loaned me a nice top-of-the-line solid-state transceiver to check out for him, and maybe I'll use it for Sweepstakes. The 'phone weekend is coming up, too! My first CW Sweepstakes was in 1968 and I've only missed one in all that time. Oh and the Phillies won the World Series. Big celebration in this town of winners! 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dudes, I have an awesome idea, let's take all the post's from the careful how you speak article and make a Ham Spirit Banner Article. Gotta go, I'm making popcorn!! Happy Halloween. PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dag-gummit, I think the Youth is right here on this Site/Hobby. Right before my very own eyes and I didn't even see it! Dag-Gummit! You all are as silly as chrome paint! This hobby has Teen Spirit written all over it!! I don't know how I missed it. Another thing, Super-op is a Japenese Phrase meaning some kind of Japenese meaning OK. Hello? Geez? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| K6JPA | 2008-11-01 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Plankeye, we may not know who you are, but thanks for the grins over the years. You do have a most interesting sense of humor... Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-01 You usually wouldn't bother? I almost spit my teeth out when I seen that. Dag-gummitt again!! You got more angles than a Gazebo!! PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-01 I usually wouldn't bother--but I'm going to make an exception. Hey plank--Didn't you see the smiley at the end of the sentence? Or are you just so plain dumb that you don't know what it means? Its obvious its the latter. Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-01 THIS IS K1CJS: You know what? I'm here to read articles and their comments--not books. It would be nice if comments could be kept shorter--so other people can understand 'em. ;-) ____________________________________________________ THIS IS PLANKEYE: Be nice and treat people with respect! Short comment, did you understand it? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-01 You know what? I'm here to read articles and their comments--not books. It would be nice if comments could be kept shorter--so other people can understand 'em. ;-) Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS." N2EY replied: "Well, you should know, Len, being a newcomer to ham radio yourself." AF6AY: "trying to diss me as you have for years over on rec.radio.amateur.policy." I'm not trying to "diss" you, Len. I'm simply pointing out a fact: You're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I became a 'newcomer' to HF radio on the first week in February, 1953,.....55 1/2 years ago. There is NOTHING in or about amateur radio that is SO unique that 'all' who enter are 'always beginners.'" Nobody said anyhting like that, Len. What I wrote was the fact that you're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I've legally operated radios in seven other radio services before I got my amateur radio license." Sure - a cb, a cell phone, somebody else's marine radio, somebody else's aircraft radio, and some radios in the military as part of a team of personnel trained for the job. But you're still a newcomer to amateur radio. That's not a "diss", it's just a fact. N2EY: "It's odd, though, that you'd be yelling for newcomers when it was you who asked the FCC to create a minimum-age requirement of 14 years for all amateur radio licenses." AF6AY: "What you are referring to is my Comment on FCC Docket 98-143 that was accepted by them on 13 January 1999, two days before their stated end of all Comments." That was a Reply Comment, Len. AF6AY: "Anyone can access my Reply to Comments via the FCC ECFS." Here's a link: http://tinyurl.com/y6uhr3 AF6AY: "I never 'asked' the FCC specifically for that age limit." Yes, you did, Len. AF6AY: "It was a SUGGESTION based on the cute, cute story in the ARRL Letter showing two six-year-olds who passed (respectively) the Technician and Novice exams." It was a request that the rules be changed to ban anyone under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Why the licensing of six-year-olds bothered you, a non-amateur well past the age of 60 at the time, remains a mystery. This thread is about "bringing youth into amateur radio", and you seem to want to ban a considerable part of the youth of the USA from it. You even accused the ARRL VEs of fraud: http://tinyurl.com/2k5mb5 Say - it was an ARRL VE session where you earned your amateur license, wasn't it? AF6AY: "It is all explained in my Reply to Comments. A SUGGESTION to restore a lower age limit, to stop CHILDREN from being legally able to interfere worldwide on HF all by themselves." Not just HF. Your request was to ban all persons under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Yet you could not cite one case - not one single case! - of interference or other problems caused by the youth of a US amateur radio operator. Not one case. Yet you would ban all under 14 years of age, if you had your way, just because they are children, regardless of the tests they passed. In fact, if one bothers to look at the FCC Enforcement actions, the worst offenders in the realm of interference are people of *your* age group in 1998, Len. One of them, who lived not far from you, was sentenced to seven years in prison for his antics, IIRC. IOW, if age is the issue, it's not the young hams who are the enforcement problem. AF6AY: "Age fourteen was an arbitrary age." Based on nothing but your own personal biases against young people: http://tinyurl.com/2akck9 AF6AY: "YOU perceived a (gasp!) 'personal insult' and you've been trying, trying, trying to gain retribution for that terrible, terrible PERCEIVED personal insult ever since." Nope, not me, Len. I'm just pointing out some facts. AF6AY: "Two children of age six BEAT you by seven years." So what? Nothing new to me; there were younger hams than I back in 1967. Those two children beat *you* to an amateur radio license by 68 years, Len. I beat you by 61 years. Seems to me you're the one with the "perceived personal insult" problem. AF6AY: "you couldn't comment on ANYTHING ELSE I wrote in 13 pages of Reply to Comments on Docket 98-143." I couldn't Reply Comment to your Reply Comment because you mailed them to FCC just before the deadline. Your other comments can be summed up in a single sentence: You wanted the Morse Code test to go away, because you don't like Morse Code. AF6AY: "I've never asked, suggested, or made a big thing out of age requirements to the FCC since." Not the point, Len. You made a big thing out of it in Reply Comments to FCC and in other discussions: http://tinyurl.com/yxq3rr AF6AY: "I've written a lot on the various dockets about radio regulations at the FCC." Yes, you have, and it's been all basically the same stuff. I feel sorry for the folks at FCC who had to read all that verbiage. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST FCC exam in the first week of March, 1956. At age 23." That's nice, Len. I took my first FCC exam when I was 13. Got my Extra at age 16 and my Second Phone at 18. Never went beyond Second Phone because I went into electrical engineering and didn't need it. Got my BSEE at age 22. MSEE took a little longer. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST amateur radio exam at age 74, passed it on the first try, ALMOST on the 51st anniversary of my first FCC test. Just WHAT do you have against that?" Nothing, Len. I'm just pointing out that you're a newcomer to amateur radio, that's all. Why does that bother you so much? It seems to really bother you that I've had almost 40 years' more experience in amateur radio than you, though. AF6AY: "you've kept harping me over the years that I "should" have gotten a ham license "first." [just like YOU did] I 'should" have taken a code test. [just as you did]" I've never said you "should" have done those things, Len. You're either mistaken or lying about that. What I and others have pointed out is that you *could* have done those things, but refused or failed to do them. Yet you want to be revered as The Authority On How Amateur Radio Should Be. COULD, not SHOULD. Big difference there. AF6AY: "WHY 'should' I have done what YOU did?" Well, (and I'm not saying you SHOULD have done what I did, only that you COULD have done something similar), consider this: If you had gotten an amateur radio license when *you* were 13, you'd have had a head start on getting into electronics, electrical engineering, radio, etc. Maybe you'd have gotten a scholarship to a major four-year University, or advanced training in the military based on your knowledge learned as a ham. You'd probably have been able to get that First Phone at 18 instead of 23. Also, if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, your comments to FCC and other hams would have carried more weight and been more convincing because you'd be arguing as someone with personal involvement and experience, not as an outsider. And if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, by now you'd have had over 70 years of enjoying amateur radio, instead of less than 2 years. Most of all, I think that if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13 you'd be a lot happier and more pleasant person today. But that's just my opinion. AF6AY: "You've tried to argue that YOU know more about the US military than I do" Where and when, Len? Do you mean the time when I corrected some of your mistakes about Soviet aircraft? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/a8cdd2dca86c2951?dmode=source my Reply http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/e56247af30b0c9a7?dmode=source Or maybe your classic post "dissing" another US Military Radio Operator's service: http://tinyurl.com/27fbwe which later led to your admission that your account of an artillery barrage was based only on others' experience: http://tinyurl.com/2tpq2l AF6AY: "I just cannot get up the same 'patriotism' for US amateur radio." That's fine, Len. Heck, it's taken you a year and a half just to put up a simple HF vertical, even with the help of contractors. Nobody says your interest must match others'. AF6AY: "It is a HOBBY activity, a recreational pursuit for personal pleasure." For you. Others are more involved, such as those who helped provide communications during natural disasters and the Shuttle debris recovery. AF6AY: "All that is required is to follow lawful regulations. In the current regulations for US amateurs there is NO regulation that mandates OOK CW modes over any other mode." So what? AF6AY: "There is NO regulation in all of Title 47 C.F.R. that states anyone MUST have an amateur radio license first before having any other radio license." And there is NO regulation banning young people from Amateur Radio just because they are young. AF6AY: "Yet you've kept on harping about what I "should" have done." Where? Show me a SPECIFIC example - a direct quote where I said such a thing. I don't think you can. AF6AY: "I got my first amateur radio license at age 74, rather well into retirement. Went for the top class and got it first try." Why did you wait so long, Len? I got the Novice, Technician, Advanced and Extra licenses on my first try, too. The testing for those licenses was somewhat more involved back when I took them, though. And I passed all of them except the Extra before I ever set foot in high school. AF6AY: "That raised a lot of hackles of the entrenched, brainwashed-as-a-teener crowd who said I "should have" come up through the ranks [just like they did]." No, it didn't raise any hackles. It surprised a few folks, and brought you a round of congratulations, but that's all. And it really wasn't much of a surprise, seeing as how you'd told the world you were "going for Extra out of the box" more than 7 years before you actually did: http://tinyurl.com/c5qyv AF6AY: "I'm not going to apologize to anyone." Well, you never let facts get in the way of a good rant, either. AF6AY: "What I did was what ANYONE else could do, either test." It's been possible to go for the top class of US amateur license on the first go for more than 30 years. AF6AY: "HOW I use that amateur license is treated the same way for my commercial license: Follow regulations. I "owe" exactly NOTHING to any group or 'amateur community' nor self-styled 'ham patriots' (and 'radio cops') who demand I do what they say with my amateur license." Nobody has "demanded" that you do anything other than follow the rules and good amateur practice, Len. What some folks wonder is what you've actually done, that's all. You don't talk about what you really do in ham radio, so it's a good bet the answer is "not much". AF6AY: "You live to ARGUE against those who don't side with your opinions." Not me, Len. You're describing yourself. All anyone has to do is to look up your many postings under various screen identities, or your massive verbiage to FCC to see that. AF6AY: "At the same time you hide behind a lot of stock (but empty) phrases of 'civility' and 'good manners' while you 'save' selected message 'examples' for some kind of posterity (as if Google doesn't have any TeraByte servers)." Not true, Len. Unlike you, I don't have to call people insulting names to make a point. Instead, I use facts and sound reasoning. To back up my reasoning, I've simply provided links to some of your past messages, posted in public forums for all to see. That's not wrong, illegal, or "uncivil". Don't you want people to know what you've written in the past? AF6AY: "You only 'saved' them to ressurect at a much later time to 'prove' a point that YOU are the uncivil one." You're saying that it's "uncivil" to point out what another has written in the past. That's simply not true, Len. I post the links to back up my reasoning with facts and actual quotes. If your arguments were valid, you could do the same thing. But you don't post links to things you claim I have written. I suspect that's because you know your claims are false. AF6AY: "Your other questions are just rewritten goads of the past so that you can set up to ARGUE something." Not at all. I just want to know what you, a newcomer, define as "standards and practices of the 1950s". I think the real reason you duck such questions is that they would show that the things you do in amateur radio, such as VHF FM and maybe HF SSB, with manufactured amateur radio equipment, are all right out of those very same "standards and practices of the 1950s" that you denigrate. If you're really proud of what you do in Amateur Radio, Len, why are you so angry, defensive and secretive about it? Can't you tolerate different opinions without calling people names? That's enough for now. The ARRL CW Sweepstakes starts late this afternoon, and I'm going to be in it. A friend has loaned me a nice top-of-the-line solid-state transceiver to check out for him, and maybe I'll use it for Sweepstakes. The 'phone weekend is coming up, too! My first CW Sweepstakes was in 1968 and I've only missed one in all that time. Oh and the Phillies won the World Series. Big celebration in this town of winners! 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dudes, I have an awesome idea, let's take all the post's from the careful how you speak article and make a Ham Spirit Banner Article. Gotta go, I'm making popcorn!! Happy Halloween. PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dag-gummit, I think the Youth is right here on this Site/Hobby. Right before my very own eyes and I didn't even see it! Dag-Gummit! You all are as silly as chrome paint! This hobby has Teen Spirit written all over it!! I don't know how I missed it. Another thing, Super-op is a Japenese Phrase meaning some kind of Japenese meaning OK. Hello? Geez? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| PLANKEYE | 2008-11-01 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| You usually wouldn't bother? I almost spit my teeth out when I seen that. Dag-gummitt again!! You got more angles than a Gazebo!! PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-01 I usually wouldn't bother--but I'm going to make an exception. Hey plank--Didn't you see the smiley at the end of the sentence? Or are you just so plain dumb that you don't know what it means? Its obvious its the latter. Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-01 THIS IS K1CJS: You know what? I'm here to read articles and their comments--not books. It would be nice if comments could be kept shorter--so other people can understand 'em. ;-) ____________________________________________________ THIS IS PLANKEYE: Be nice and treat people with respect! Short comment, did you understand it? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-01 You know what? I'm here to read articles and their comments--not books. It would be nice if comments could be kept shorter--so other people can understand 'em. ;-) Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS." N2EY replied: "Well, you should know, Len, being a newcomer to ham radio yourself." AF6AY: "trying to diss me as you have for years over on rec.radio.amateur.policy." I'm not trying to "diss" you, Len. I'm simply pointing out a fact: You're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I became a 'newcomer' to HF radio on the first week in February, 1953,.....55 1/2 years ago. There is NOTHING in or about amateur radio that is SO unique that 'all' who enter are 'always beginners.'" Nobody said anyhting like that, Len. What I wrote was the fact that you're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I've legally operated radios in seven other radio services before I got my amateur radio license." Sure - a cb, a cell phone, somebody else's marine radio, somebody else's aircraft radio, and some radios in the military as part of a team of personnel trained for the job. But you're still a newcomer to amateur radio. That's not a "diss", it's just a fact. N2EY: "It's odd, though, that you'd be yelling for newcomers when it was you who asked the FCC to create a minimum-age requirement of 14 years for all amateur radio licenses." AF6AY: "What you are referring to is my Comment on FCC Docket 98-143 that was accepted by them on 13 January 1999, two days before their stated end of all Comments." That was a Reply Comment, Len. AF6AY: "Anyone can access my Reply to Comments via the FCC ECFS." Here's a link: http://tinyurl.com/y6uhr3 AF6AY: "I never 'asked' the FCC specifically for that age limit." Yes, you did, Len. AF6AY: "It was a SUGGESTION based on the cute, cute story in the ARRL Letter showing two six-year-olds who passed (respectively) the Technician and Novice exams." It was a request that the rules be changed to ban anyone under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Why the licensing of six-year-olds bothered you, a non-amateur well past the age of 60 at the time, remains a mystery. This thread is about "bringing youth into amateur radio", and you seem to want to ban a considerable part of the youth of the USA from it. You even accused the ARRL VEs of fraud: http://tinyurl.com/2k5mb5 Say - it was an ARRL VE session where you earned your amateur license, wasn't it? AF6AY: "It is all explained in my Reply to Comments. A SUGGESTION to restore a lower age limit, to stop CHILDREN from being legally able to interfere worldwide on HF all by themselves." Not just HF. Your request was to ban all persons under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Yet you could not cite one case - not one single case! - of interference or other problems caused by the youth of a US amateur radio operator. Not one case. Yet you would ban all under 14 years of age, if you had your way, just because they are children, regardless of the tests they passed. In fact, if one bothers to look at the FCC Enforcement actions, the worst offenders in the realm of interference are people of *your* age group in 1998, Len. One of them, who lived not far from you, was sentenced to seven years in prison for his antics, IIRC. IOW, if age is the issue, it's not the young hams who are the enforcement problem. AF6AY: "Age fourteen was an arbitrary age." Based on nothing but your own personal biases against young people: http://tinyurl.com/2akck9 AF6AY: "YOU perceived a (gasp!) 'personal insult' and you've been trying, trying, trying to gain retribution for that terrible, terrible PERCEIVED personal insult ever since." Nope, not me, Len. I'm just pointing out some facts. AF6AY: "Two children of age six BEAT you by seven years." So what? Nothing new to me; there were younger hams than I back in 1967. Those two children beat *you* to an amateur radio license by 68 years, Len. I beat you by 61 years. Seems to me you're the one with the "perceived personal insult" problem. AF6AY: "you couldn't comment on ANYTHING ELSE I wrote in 13 pages of Reply to Comments on Docket 98-143." I couldn't Reply Comment to your Reply Comment because you mailed them to FCC just before the deadline. Your other comments can be summed up in a single sentence: You wanted the Morse Code test to go away, because you don't like Morse Code. AF6AY: "I've never asked, suggested, or made a big thing out of age requirements to the FCC since." Not the point, Len. You made a big thing out of it in Reply Comments to FCC and in other discussions: http://tinyurl.com/yxq3rr AF6AY: "I've written a lot on the various dockets about radio regulations at the FCC." Yes, you have, and it's been all basically the same stuff. I feel sorry for the folks at FCC who had to read all that verbiage. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST FCC exam in the first week of March, 1956. At age 23." That's nice, Len. I took my first FCC exam when I was 13. Got my Extra at age 16 and my Second Phone at 18. Never went beyond Second Phone because I went into electrical engineering and didn't need it. Got my BSEE at age 22. MSEE took a little longer. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST amateur radio exam at age 74, passed it on the first try, ALMOST on the 51st anniversary of my first FCC test. Just WHAT do you have against that?" Nothing, Len. I'm just pointing out that you're a newcomer to amateur radio, that's all. Why does that bother you so much? It seems to really bother you that I've had almost 40 years' more experience in amateur radio than you, though. AF6AY: "you've kept harping me over the years that I "should" have gotten a ham license "first." [just like YOU did] I 'should" have taken a code test. [just as you did]" I've never said you "should" have done those things, Len. You're either mistaken or lying about that. What I and others have pointed out is that you *could* have done those things, but refused or failed to do them. Yet you want to be revered as The Authority On How Amateur Radio Should Be. COULD, not SHOULD. Big difference there. AF6AY: "WHY 'should' I have done what YOU did?" Well, (and I'm not saying you SHOULD have done what I did, only that you COULD have done something similar), consider this: If you had gotten an amateur radio license when *you* were 13, you'd have had a head start on getting into electronics, electrical engineering, radio, etc. Maybe you'd have gotten a scholarship to a major four-year University, or advanced training in the military based on your knowledge learned as a ham. You'd probably have been able to get that First Phone at 18 instead of 23. Also, if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, your comments to FCC and other hams would have carried more weight and been more convincing because you'd be arguing as someone with personal involvement and experience, not as an outsider. And if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, by now you'd have had over 70 years of enjoying amateur radio, instead of less than 2 years. Most of all, I think that if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13 you'd be a lot happier and more pleasant person today. But that's just my opinion. AF6AY: "You've tried to argue that YOU know more about the US military than I do" Where and when, Len? Do you mean the time when I corrected some of your mistakes about Soviet aircraft? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/a8cdd2dca86c2951?dmode=source my Reply http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/e56247af30b0c9a7?dmode=source Or maybe your classic post "dissing" another US Military Radio Operator's service: http://tinyurl.com/27fbwe which later led to your admission that your account of an artillery barrage was based only on others' experience: http://tinyurl.com/2tpq2l AF6AY: "I just cannot get up the same 'patriotism' for US amateur radio." That's fine, Len. Heck, it's taken you a year and a half just to put up a simple HF vertical, even with the help of contractors. Nobody says your interest must match others'. AF6AY: "It is a HOBBY activity, a recreational pursuit for personal pleasure." For you. Others are more involved, such as those who helped provide communications during natural disasters and the Shuttle debris recovery. AF6AY: "All that is required is to follow lawful regulations. In the current regulations for US amateurs there is NO regulation that mandates OOK CW modes over any other mode." So what? AF6AY: "There is NO regulation in all of Title 47 C.F.R. that states anyone MUST have an amateur radio license first before having any other radio license." And there is NO regulation banning young people from Amateur Radio just because they are young. AF6AY: "Yet you've kept on harping about what I "should" have done." Where? Show me a SPECIFIC example - a direct quote where I said such a thing. I don't think you can. AF6AY: "I got my first amateur radio license at age 74, rather well into retirement. Went for the top class and got it first try." Why did you wait so long, Len? I got the Novice, Technician, Advanced and Extra licenses on my first try, too. The testing for those licenses was somewhat more involved back when I took them, though. And I passed all of them except the Extra before I ever set foot in high school. AF6AY: "That raised a lot of hackles of the entrenched, brainwashed-as-a-teener crowd who said I "should have" come up through the ranks [just like they did]." No, it didn't raise any hackles. It surprised a few folks, and brought you a round of congratulations, but that's all. And it really wasn't much of a surprise, seeing as how you'd told the world you were "going for Extra out of the box" more than 7 years before you actually did: http://tinyurl.com/c5qyv AF6AY: "I'm not going to apologize to anyone." Well, you never let facts get in the way of a good rant, either. AF6AY: "What I did was what ANYONE else could do, either test." It's been possible to go for the top class of US amateur license on the first go for more than 30 years. AF6AY: "HOW I use that amateur license is treated the same way for my commercial license: Follow regulations. I "owe" exactly NOTHING to any group or 'amateur community' nor self-styled 'ham patriots' (and 'radio cops') who demand I do what they say with my amateur license." Nobody has "demanded" that you do anything other than follow the rules and good amateur practice, Len. What some folks wonder is what you've actually done, that's all. You don't talk about what you really do in ham radio, so it's a good bet the answer is "not much". AF6AY: "You live to ARGUE against those who don't side with your opinions." Not me, Len. You're describing yourself. All anyone has to do is to look up your many postings under various screen identities, or your massive verbiage to FCC to see that. AF6AY: "At the same time you hide behind a lot of stock (but empty) phrases of 'civility' and 'good manners' while you 'save' selected message 'examples' for some kind of posterity (as if Google doesn't have any TeraByte servers)." Not true, Len. Unlike you, I don't have to call people insulting names to make a point. Instead, I use facts and sound reasoning. To back up my reasoning, I've simply provided links to some of your past messages, posted in public forums for all to see. That's not wrong, illegal, or "uncivil". Don't you want people to know what you've written in the past? AF6AY: "You only 'saved' them to ressurect at a much later time to 'prove' a point that YOU are the uncivil one." You're saying that it's "uncivil" to point out what another has written in the past. That's simply not true, Len. I post the links to back up my reasoning with facts and actual quotes. If your arguments were valid, you could do the same thing. But you don't post links to things you claim I have written. I suspect that's because you know your claims are false. AF6AY: "Your other questions are just rewritten goads of the past so that you can set up to ARGUE something." Not at all. I just want to know what you, a newcomer, define as "standards and practices of the 1950s". I think the real reason you duck such questions is that they would show that the things you do in amateur radio, such as VHF FM and maybe HF SSB, with manufactured amateur radio equipment, are all right out of those very same "standards and practices of the 1950s" that you denigrate. If you're really proud of what you do in Amateur Radio, Len, why are you so angry, defensive and secretive about it? Can't you tolerate different opinions without calling people names? That's enough for now. The ARRL CW Sweepstakes starts late this afternoon, and I'm going to be in it. A friend has loaned me a nice top-of-the-line solid-state transceiver to check out for him, and maybe I'll use it for Sweepstakes. The 'phone weekend is coming up, too! My first CW Sweepstakes was in 1968 and I've only missed one in all that time. Oh and the Phillies won the World Series. Big celebration in this town of winners! 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dudes, I have an awesome idea, let's take all the post's from the careful how you speak article and make a Ham Spirit Banner Article. Gotta go, I'm making popcorn!! Happy Halloween. PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dag-gummit, I think the Youth is right here on this Site/Hobby. Right before my very own eyes and I didn't even see it! Dag-Gummit! You all are as silly as chrome paint! This hobby has Teen Spirit written all over it!! I don't know how I missed it. Another thing, Super-op is a Japenese Phrase meaning some kind of Japenese meaning OK. Hello? Geez? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| PLANKEYE | 2008-11-01 | |
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| DARIUS RUCKER | ||
| They will be the "great QSOs," the "super ops," the W4RNLs, N0AXs, W8JIs, K0BGs, AC6Vs, W4LGHs...and W4OXUs of tomorrow. _____________________________________________ THIS IS PLANKEYE: Super Op? Are you serious? Dude? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : N4KC on 2008-10-31 W4LGH says, "Ham radio has always been and will always be an older persons hobby." Alan, I'm thankful Walt, W4OXU, did not believe that. He took the time to answer a 13-year-old kid's dumb questions and spent many nights (after a long workday and a two-hour-each-way commute) teaching a bunch of us teenagers about resistors, capacitors, tubes and dits and dahs. Had he adopted your attitude, and I had waited until I was 40, I would have missed out on a quarter of a century of this wonderful hobby. And guys, please don't assume everybody under 30 is hypnotized by video games or perfectly content to communicate with cell phones. I suspect there is just as big a percentage of young people out there who would be captivated by our hobby as there was in 1963. Let's make them aware and see who bites. Then let's be nurturing and welcoming and reel them in, along with the older guys. They will be the "great QSOs," the "super ops," the W4RNLs, N0AXs, W8JIs, K0BGs, AC6Vs, W4LGHs...and W4OXUs of tomorrow. Don N4KC www.n4kc.com www.donkeith.com www.n4kc.blogspot.com (A blog dedicated to rapid technological change and its effect on media, society and amateur radio) Reply to a comment by : AI2IA on 2008-10-31 Nothing regarding the FCC allocations in the radio spectrum are so stable that they cannot change due to major shifts in use or in needs. However, one of the strong points for the continued presence of amateur radio is as a resource for emergency communications. All anyone has to do is to glance at 97.1(a) "...particularly with respect to providing emergency communications." There it is right at the beginning of Part 97! This shows its importance to the FCC, to the Government. Our continued recruitment and support of this aspect of amateur radio will help us maintain all the other parts of it that we enjoy such as operating as a hobby or contesting. If every licensed ham who can joins a club, supports recruitment, participates in emcomm, or becomes a VE and helps with testing all with the idea of preserving and enhancing emergency communications first and everthing else next, we will be secure for a long time to come, at least that is how I see it. | ||
| WB0RXL | 2008-11-01 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| I fell in love with radio when I was six years old. I began by DXing on the AM broadcast band. Later, when I began to wonder what was between the AM and FM broadcast bands, my dad finally bought and helped me assemble a Heathkit shortwave receiver when I was 12 years old. I listened to just about every service from 550 kc (sic) to 30 mc. I asked around my high school, but never found anyone who knew how to become either a ham or a CB'er. It was finally after college and during my first job I finally found a ham who explained to me how to become a ham radio operator. Today my search would be much easier with the Internet. But I believe there may be other people (young or otherwise) who would enter the hobby if given just a bit of guidance. For example, a club publicity table at a community fair. A good club web site, with a feedback button that will be followed up. People will become hams for a variety of reasons. It's our responsibility as existing hams to help them make the connection. That's one of the reasons I have served in the past as a VEC examiner and a ham radio class teacher. John (WB0RXL) Reply to a comment by : W9OY on 2008-11-01 the reason I got into ham radio was my imagination was captured. It was captured at age 6, and I was driven to become a ham/ Today's youngsters will get into it for the same reason. What captured me will likely not capture them. There is a company http://www.sdrtec.com/index_files/Page430.htm that is marketing the origional QEX SDR-1000 in India. I can well see many teenage imaginations being captured as they learn how to program for such a beast. The youngsters in that country and southeast asia and the old eastern block are hungry. Hungry to succeed and hungry to learn and grow. That is what will grow ham radio. It is likely ham radio will not grow in this country. It does not mean it will not grow. Will the last one who keels over on his Drake line please turn off the lights 73 W9OY Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| K1CJS | 2008-11-01 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| I usually wouldn't bother--but I'm going to make an exception. Hey plank--Didn't you see the smiley at the end of the sentence? Or are you just so plain dumb that you don't know what it means? Its obvious its the latter. Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-11-01 THIS IS K1CJS: You know what? I'm here to read articles and their comments--not books. It would be nice if comments could be kept shorter--so other people can understand 'em. ;-) ____________________________________________________ THIS IS PLANKEYE: Be nice and treat people with respect! Short comment, did you understand it? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-01 You know what? I'm here to read articles and their comments--not books. It would be nice if comments could be kept shorter--so other people can understand 'em. ;-) Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS." N2EY replied: "Well, you should know, Len, being a newcomer to ham radio yourself." AF6AY: "trying to diss me as you have for years over on rec.radio.amateur.policy." I'm not trying to "diss" you, Len. I'm simply pointing out a fact: You're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I became a 'newcomer' to HF radio on the first week in February, 1953,.....55 1/2 years ago. There is NOTHING in or about amateur radio that is SO unique that 'all' who enter are 'always beginners.'" Nobody said anyhting like that, Len. What I wrote was the fact that you're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I've legally operated radios in seven other radio services before I got my amateur radio license." Sure - a cb, a cell phone, somebody else's marine radio, somebody else's aircraft radio, and some radios in the military as part of a team of personnel trained for the job. But you're still a newcomer to amateur radio. That's not a "diss", it's just a fact. N2EY: "It's odd, though, that you'd be yelling for newcomers when it was you who asked the FCC to create a minimum-age requirement of 14 years for all amateur radio licenses." AF6AY: "What you are referring to is my Comment on FCC Docket 98-143 that was accepted by them on 13 January 1999, two days before their stated end of all Comments." That was a Reply Comment, Len. AF6AY: "Anyone can access my Reply to Comments via the FCC ECFS." Here's a link: http://tinyurl.com/y6uhr3 AF6AY: "I never 'asked' the FCC specifically for that age limit." Yes, you did, Len. AF6AY: "It was a SUGGESTION based on the cute, cute story in the ARRL Letter showing two six-year-olds who passed (respectively) the Technician and Novice exams." It was a request that the rules be changed to ban anyone under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Why the licensing of six-year-olds bothered you, a non-amateur well past the age of 60 at the time, remains a mystery. This thread is about "bringing youth into amateur radio", and you seem to want to ban a considerable part of the youth of the USA from it. You even accused the ARRL VEs of fraud: http://tinyurl.com/2k5mb5 Say - it was an ARRL VE session where you earned your amateur license, wasn't it? AF6AY: "It is all explained in my Reply to Comments. A SUGGESTION to restore a lower age limit, to stop CHILDREN from being legally able to interfere worldwide on HF all by themselves." Not just HF. Your request was to ban all persons under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Yet you could not cite one case - not one single case! - of interference or other problems caused by the youth of a US amateur radio operator. Not one case. Yet you would ban all under 14 years of age, if you had your way, just because they are children, regardless of the tests they passed. In fact, if one bothers to look at the FCC Enforcement actions, the worst offenders in the realm of interference are people of *your* age group in 1998, Len. One of them, who lived not far from you, was sentenced to seven years in prison for his antics, IIRC. IOW, if age is the issue, it's not the young hams who are the enforcement problem. AF6AY: "Age fourteen was an arbitrary age." Based on nothing but your own personal biases against young people: http://tinyurl.com/2akck9 AF6AY: "YOU perceived a (gasp!) 'personal insult' and you've been trying, trying, trying to gain retribution for that terrible, terrible PERCEIVED personal insult ever since." Nope, not me, Len. I'm just pointing out some facts. AF6AY: "Two children of age six BEAT you by seven years." So what? Nothing new to me; there were younger hams than I back in 1967. Those two children beat *you* to an amateur radio license by 68 years, Len. I beat you by 61 years. Seems to me you're the one with the "perceived personal insult" problem. AF6AY: "you couldn't comment on ANYTHING ELSE I wrote in 13 pages of Reply to Comments on Docket 98-143." I couldn't Reply Comment to your Reply Comment because you mailed them to FCC just before the deadline. Your other comments can be summed up in a single sentence: You wanted the Morse Code test to go away, because you don't like Morse Code. AF6AY: "I've never asked, suggested, or made a big thing out of age requirements to the FCC since." Not the point, Len. You made a big thing out of it in Reply Comments to FCC and in other discussions: http://tinyurl.com/yxq3rr AF6AY: "I've written a lot on the various dockets about radio regulations at the FCC." Yes, you have, and it's been all basically the same stuff. I feel sorry for the folks at FCC who had to read all that verbiage. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST FCC exam in the first week of March, 1956. At age 23." That's nice, Len. I took my first FCC exam when I was 13. Got my Extra at age 16 and my Second Phone at 18. Never went beyond Second Phone because I went into electrical engineering and didn't need it. Got my BSEE at age 22. MSEE took a little longer. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST amateur radio exam at age 74, passed it on the first try, ALMOST on the 51st anniversary of my first FCC test. Just WHAT do you have against that?" Nothing, Len. I'm just pointing out that you're a newcomer to amateur radio, that's all. Why does that bother you so much? It seems to really bother you that I've had almost 40 years' more experience in amateur radio than you, though. AF6AY: "you've kept harping me over the years that I "should" have gotten a ham license "first." [just like YOU did] I 'should" have taken a code test. [just as you did]" I've never said you "should" have done those things, Len. You're either mistaken or lying about that. What I and others have pointed out is that you *could* have done those things, but refused or failed to do them. Yet you want to be revered as The Authority On How Amateur Radio Should Be. COULD, not SHOULD. Big difference there. AF6AY: "WHY 'should' I have done what YOU did?" Well, (and I'm not saying you SHOULD have done what I did, only that you COULD have done something similar), consider this: If you had gotten an amateur radio license when *you* were 13, you'd have had a head start on getting into electronics, electrical engineering, radio, etc. Maybe you'd have gotten a scholarship to a major four-year University, or advanced training in the military based on your knowledge learned as a ham. You'd probably have been able to get that First Phone at 18 instead of 23. Also, if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, your comments to FCC and other hams would have carried more weight and been more convincing because you'd be arguing as someone with personal involvement and experience, not as an outsider. And if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, by now you'd have had over 70 years of enjoying amateur radio, instead of less than 2 years. Most of all, I think that if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13 you'd be a lot happier and more pleasant person today. But that's just my opinion. AF6AY: "You've tried to argue that YOU know more about the US military than I do" Where and when, Len? Do you mean the time when I corrected some of your mistakes about Soviet aircraft? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/a8cdd2dca86c2951?dmode=source my Reply http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/e56247af30b0c9a7?dmode=source Or maybe your classic post "dissing" another US Military Radio Operator's service: http://tinyurl.com/27fbwe which later led to your admission that your account of an artillery barrage was based only on others' experience: http://tinyurl.com/2tpq2l AF6AY: "I just cannot get up the same 'patriotism' for US amateur radio." That's fine, Len. Heck, it's taken you a year and a half just to put up a simple HF vertical, even with the help of contractors. Nobody says your interest must match others'. AF6AY: "It is a HOBBY activity, a recreational pursuit for personal pleasure." For you. Others are more involved, such as those who helped provide communications during natural disasters and the Shuttle debris recovery. AF6AY: "All that is required is to follow lawful regulations. In the current regulations for US amateurs there is NO regulation that mandates OOK CW modes over any other mode." So what? AF6AY: "There is NO regulation in all of Title 47 C.F.R. that states anyone MUST have an amateur radio license first before having any other radio license." And there is NO regulation banning young people from Amateur Radio just because they are young. AF6AY: "Yet you've kept on harping about what I "should" have done." Where? Show me a SPECIFIC example - a direct quote where I said such a thing. I don't think you can. AF6AY: "I got my first amateur radio license at age 74, rather well into retirement. Went for the top class and got it first try." Why did you wait so long, Len? I got the Novice, Technician, Advanced and Extra licenses on my first try, too. The testing for those licenses was somewhat more involved back when I took them, though. And I passed all of them except the Extra before I ever set foot in high school. AF6AY: "That raised a lot of hackles of the entrenched, brainwashed-as-a-teener crowd who said I "should have" come up through the ranks [just like they did]." No, it didn't raise any hackles. It surprised a few folks, and brought you a round of congratulations, but that's all. And it really wasn't much of a surprise, seeing as how you'd told the world you were "going for Extra out of the box" more than 7 years before you actually did: http://tinyurl.com/c5qyv AF6AY: "I'm not going to apologize to anyone." Well, you never let facts get in the way of a good rant, either. AF6AY: "What I did was what ANYONE else could do, either test." It's been possible to go for the top class of US amateur license on the first go for more than 30 years. AF6AY: "HOW I use that amateur license is treated the same way for my commercial license: Follow regulations. I "owe" exactly NOTHING to any group or 'amateur community' nor self-styled 'ham patriots' (and 'radio cops') who demand I do what they say with my amateur license." Nobody has "demanded" that you do anything other than follow the rules and good amateur practice, Len. What some folks wonder is what you've actually done, that's all. You don't talk about what you really do in ham radio, so it's a good bet the answer is "not much". AF6AY: "You live to ARGUE against those who don't side with your opinions." Not me, Len. You're describing yourself. All anyone has to do is to look up your many postings under various screen identities, or your massive verbiage to FCC to see that. AF6AY: "At the same time you hide behind a lot of stock (but empty) phrases of 'civility' and 'good manners' while you 'save' selected message 'examples' for some kind of posterity (as if Google doesn't have any TeraByte servers)." Not true, Len. Unlike you, I don't have to call people insulting names to make a point. Instead, I use facts and sound reasoning. To back up my reasoning, I've simply provided links to some of your past messages, posted in public forums for all to see. That's not wrong, illegal, or "uncivil". Don't you want people to know what you've written in the past? AF6AY: "You only 'saved' them to ressurect at a much later time to 'prove' a point that YOU are the uncivil one." You're saying that it's "uncivil" to point out what another has written in the past. That's simply not true, Len. I post the links to back up my reasoning with facts and actual quotes. If your arguments were valid, you could do the same thing. But you don't post links to things you claim I have written. I suspect that's because you know your claims are false. AF6AY: "Your other questions are just rewritten goads of the past so that you can set up to ARGUE something." Not at all. I just want to know what you, a newcomer, define as "standards and practices of the 1950s". I think the real reason you duck such questions is that they would show that the things you do in amateur radio, such as VHF FM and maybe HF SSB, with manufactured amateur radio equipment, are all right out of those very same "standards and practices of the 1950s" that you denigrate. If you're really proud of what you do in Amateur Radio, Len, why are you so angry, defensive and secretive about it? Can't you tolerate different opinions without calling people names? That's enough for now. The ARRL CW Sweepstakes starts late this afternoon, and I'm going to be in it. A friend has loaned me a nice top-of-the-line solid-state transceiver to check out for him, and maybe I'll use it for Sweepstakes. The 'phone weekend is coming up, too! My first CW Sweepstakes was in 1968 and I've only missed one in all that time. Oh and the Phillies won the World Series. Big celebration in this town of winners! 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dudes, I have an awesome idea, let's take all the post's from the careful how you speak article and make a Ham Spirit Banner Article. Gotta go, I'm making popcorn!! Happy Halloween. PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dag-gummit, I think the Youth is right here on this Site/Hobby. Right before my very own eyes and I didn't even see it! Dag-Gummit! You all are as silly as chrome paint! This hobby has Teen Spirit written all over it!! I don't know how I missed it. Another thing, Super-op is a Japenese Phrase meaning some kind of Japenese meaning OK. Hello? Geez? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| PLANKEYE | 2008-11-01 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| THIS IS K1CJS: You know what? I'm here to read articles and their comments--not books. It would be nice if comments could be kept shorter--so other people can understand 'em. ;-) ____________________________________________________ THIS IS PLANKEYE: Be nice and treat people with respect! Short comment, did you understand it? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-11-01 You know what? I'm here to read articles and their comments--not books. It would be nice if comments could be kept shorter--so other people can understand 'em. ;-) Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS." N2EY replied: "Well, you should know, Len, being a newcomer to ham radio yourself." AF6AY: "trying to diss me as you have for years over on rec.radio.amateur.policy." I'm not trying to "diss" you, Len. I'm simply pointing out a fact: You're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I became a 'newcomer' to HF radio on the first week in February, 1953,.....55 1/2 years ago. There is NOTHING in or about amateur radio that is SO unique that 'all' who enter are 'always beginners.'" Nobody said anyhting like that, Len. What I wrote was the fact that you're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I've legally operated radios in seven other radio services before I got my amateur radio license." Sure - a cb, a cell phone, somebody else's marine radio, somebody else's aircraft radio, and some radios in the military as part of a team of personnel trained for the job. But you're still a newcomer to amateur radio. That's not a "diss", it's just a fact. N2EY: "It's odd, though, that you'd be yelling for newcomers when it was you who asked the FCC to create a minimum-age requirement of 14 years for all amateur radio licenses." AF6AY: "What you are referring to is my Comment on FCC Docket 98-143 that was accepted by them on 13 January 1999, two days before their stated end of all Comments." That was a Reply Comment, Len. AF6AY: "Anyone can access my Reply to Comments via the FCC ECFS." Here's a link: http://tinyurl.com/y6uhr3 AF6AY: "I never 'asked' the FCC specifically for that age limit." Yes, you did, Len. AF6AY: "It was a SUGGESTION based on the cute, cute story in the ARRL Letter showing two six-year-olds who passed (respectively) the Technician and Novice exams." It was a request that the rules be changed to ban anyone under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Why the licensing of six-year-olds bothered you, a non-amateur well past the age of 60 at the time, remains a mystery. This thread is about "bringing youth into amateur radio", and you seem to want to ban a considerable part of the youth of the USA from it. You even accused the ARRL VEs of fraud: http://tinyurl.com/2k5mb5 Say - it was an ARRL VE session where you earned your amateur license, wasn't it? AF6AY: "It is all explained in my Reply to Comments. A SUGGESTION to restore a lower age limit, to stop CHILDREN from being legally able to interfere worldwide on HF all by themselves." Not just HF. Your request was to ban all persons under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Yet you could not cite one case - not one single case! - of interference or other problems caused by the youth of a US amateur radio operator. Not one case. Yet you would ban all under 14 years of age, if you had your way, just because they are children, regardless of the tests they passed. In fact, if one bothers to look at the FCC Enforcement actions, the worst offenders in the realm of interference are people of *your* age group in 1998, Len. One of them, who lived not far from you, was sentenced to seven years in prison for his antics, IIRC. IOW, if age is the issue, it's not the young hams who are the enforcement problem. AF6AY: "Age fourteen was an arbitrary age." Based on nothing but your own personal biases against young people: http://tinyurl.com/2akck9 AF6AY: "YOU perceived a (gasp!) 'personal insult' and you've been trying, trying, trying to gain retribution for that terrible, terrible PERCEIVED personal insult ever since." Nope, not me, Len. I'm just pointing out some facts. AF6AY: "Two children of age six BEAT you by seven years." So what? Nothing new to me; there were younger hams than I back in 1967. Those two children beat *you* to an amateur radio license by 68 years, Len. I beat you by 61 years. Seems to me you're the one with the "perceived personal insult" problem. AF6AY: "you couldn't comment on ANYTHING ELSE I wrote in 13 pages of Reply to Comments on Docket 98-143." I couldn't Reply Comment to your Reply Comment because you mailed them to FCC just before the deadline. Your other comments can be summed up in a single sentence: You wanted the Morse Code test to go away, because you don't like Morse Code. AF6AY: "I've never asked, suggested, or made a big thing out of age requirements to the FCC since." Not the point, Len. You made a big thing out of it in Reply Comments to FCC and in other discussions: http://tinyurl.com/yxq3rr AF6AY: "I've written a lot on the various dockets about radio regulations at the FCC." Yes, you have, and it's been all basically the same stuff. I feel sorry for the folks at FCC who had to read all that verbiage. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST FCC exam in the first week of March, 1956. At age 23." That's nice, Len. I took my first FCC exam when I was 13. Got my Extra at age 16 and my Second Phone at 18. Never went beyond Second Phone because I went into electrical engineering and didn't need it. Got my BSEE at age 22. MSEE took a little longer. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST amateur radio exam at age 74, passed it on the first try, ALMOST on the 51st anniversary of my first FCC test. Just WHAT do you have against that?" Nothing, Len. I'm just pointing out that you're a newcomer to amateur radio, that's all. Why does that bother you so much? It seems to really bother you that I've had almost 40 years' more experience in amateur radio than you, though. AF6AY: "you've kept harping me over the years that I "should" have gotten a ham license "first." [just like YOU did] I 'should" have taken a code test. [just as you did]" I've never said you "should" have done those things, Len. You're either mistaken or lying about that. What I and others have pointed out is that you *could* have done those things, but refused or failed to do them. Yet you want to be revered as The Authority On How Amateur Radio Should Be. COULD, not SHOULD. Big difference there. AF6AY: "WHY 'should' I have done what YOU did?" Well, (and I'm not saying you SHOULD have done what I did, only that you COULD have done something similar), consider this: If you had gotten an amateur radio license when *you* were 13, you'd have had a head start on getting into electronics, electrical engineering, radio, etc. Maybe you'd have gotten a scholarship to a major four-year University, or advanced training in the military based on your knowledge learned as a ham. You'd probably have been able to get that First Phone at 18 instead of 23. Also, if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, your comments to FCC and other hams would have carried more weight and been more convincing because you'd be arguing as someone with personal involvement and experience, not as an outsider. And if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, by now you'd have had over 70 years of enjoying amateur radio, instead of less than 2 years. Most of all, I think that if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13 you'd be a lot happier and more pleasant person today. But that's just my opinion. AF6AY: "You've tried to argue that YOU know more about the US military than I do" Where and when, Len? Do you mean the time when I corrected some of your mistakes about Soviet aircraft? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/a8cdd2dca86c2951?dmode=source my Reply http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/e56247af30b0c9a7?dmode=source Or maybe your classic post "dissing" another US Military Radio Operator's service: http://tinyurl.com/27fbwe which later led to your admission that your account of an artillery barrage was based only on others' experience: http://tinyurl.com/2tpq2l AF6AY: "I just cannot get up the same 'patriotism' for US amateur radio." That's fine, Len. Heck, it's taken you a year and a half just to put up a simple HF vertical, even with the help of contractors. Nobody says your interest must match others'. AF6AY: "It is a HOBBY activity, a recreational pursuit for personal pleasure." For you. Others are more involved, such as those who helped provide communications during natural disasters and the Shuttle debris recovery. AF6AY: "All that is required is to follow lawful regulations. In the current regulations for US amateurs there is NO regulation that mandates OOK CW modes over any other mode." So what? AF6AY: "There is NO regulation in all of Title 47 C.F.R. that states anyone MUST have an amateur radio license first before having any other radio license." And there is NO regulation banning young people from Amateur Radio just because they are young. AF6AY: "Yet you've kept on harping about what I "should" have done." Where? Show me a SPECIFIC example - a direct quote where I said such a thing. I don't think you can. AF6AY: "I got my first amateur radio license at age 74, rather well into retirement. Went for the top class and got it first try." Why did you wait so long, Len? I got the Novice, Technician, Advanced and Extra licenses on my first try, too. The testing for those licenses was somewhat more involved back when I took them, though. And I passed all of them except the Extra before I ever set foot in high school. AF6AY: "That raised a lot of hackles of the entrenched, brainwashed-as-a-teener crowd who said I "should have" come up through the ranks [just like they did]." No, it didn't raise any hackles. It surprised a few folks, and brought you a round of congratulations, but that's all. And it really wasn't much of a surprise, seeing as how you'd told the world you were "going for Extra out of the box" more than 7 years before you actually did: http://tinyurl.com/c5qyv AF6AY: "I'm not going to apologize to anyone." Well, you never let facts get in the way of a good rant, either. AF6AY: "What I did was what ANYONE else could do, either test." It's been possible to go for the top class of US amateur license on the first go for more than 30 years. AF6AY: "HOW I use that amateur license is treated the same way for my commercial license: Follow regulations. I "owe" exactly NOTHING to any group or 'amateur community' nor self-styled 'ham patriots' (and 'radio cops') who demand I do what they say with my amateur license." Nobody has "demanded" that you do anything other than follow the rules and good amateur practice, Len. What some folks wonder is what you've actually done, that's all. You don't talk about what you really do in ham radio, so it's a good bet the answer is "not much". AF6AY: "You live to ARGUE against those who don't side with your opinions." Not me, Len. You're describing yourself. All anyone has to do is to look up your many postings under various screen identities, or your massive verbiage to FCC to see that. AF6AY: "At the same time you hide behind a lot of stock (but empty) phrases of 'civility' and 'good manners' while you 'save' selected message 'examples' for some kind of posterity (as if Google doesn't have any TeraByte servers)." Not true, Len. Unlike you, I don't have to call people insulting names to make a point. Instead, I use facts and sound reasoning. To back up my reasoning, I've simply provided links to some of your past messages, posted in public forums for all to see. That's not wrong, illegal, or "uncivil". Don't you want people to know what you've written in the past? AF6AY: "You only 'saved' them to ressurect at a much later time to 'prove' a point that YOU are the uncivil one." You're saying that it's "uncivil" to point out what another has written in the past. That's simply not true, Len. I post the links to back up my reasoning with facts and actual quotes. If your arguments were valid, you could do the same thing. But you don't post links to things you claim I have written. I suspect that's because you know your claims are false. AF6AY: "Your other questions are just rewritten goads of the past so that you can set up to ARGUE something." Not at all. I just want to know what you, a newcomer, define as "standards and practices of the 1950s". I think the real reason you duck such questions is that they would show that the things you do in amateur radio, such as VHF FM and maybe HF SSB, with manufactured amateur radio equipment, are all right out of those very same "standards and practices of the 1950s" that you denigrate. If you're really proud of what you do in Amateur Radio, Len, why are you so angry, defensive and secretive about it? Can't you tolerate different opinions without calling people names? That's enough for now. The ARRL CW Sweepstakes starts late this afternoon, and I'm going to be in it. A friend has loaned me a nice top-of-the-line solid-state transceiver to check out for him, and maybe I'll use it for Sweepstakes. The 'phone weekend is coming up, too! My first CW Sweepstakes was in 1968 and I've only missed one in all that time. Oh and the Phillies won the World Series. Big celebration in this town of winners! 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dudes, I have an awesome idea, let's take all the post's from the careful how you speak article and make a Ham Spirit Banner Article. Gotta go, I'm making popcorn!! Happy Halloween. PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dag-gummit, I think the Youth is right here on this Site/Hobby. Right before my very own eyes and I didn't even see it! Dag-Gummit! You all are as silly as chrome paint! This hobby has Teen Spirit written all over it!! I don't know how I missed it. Another thing, Super-op is a Japenese Phrase meaning some kind of Japenese meaning OK. Hello? Geez? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| PLANKEYE | 2008-11-01 | |
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| JOHNNY MCGHEE | ||
| Dag-Gummitt Again, any of you guys get ON THE AIR? You guys get crazy uptight and write Novels here. And none of them are about Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio, that's I smoked my lunch if I have ever seen it. And post 10 Thousand times? What's up? And most of it is SILLY! And then get mad when you get silly respones or however you spell that. Any of you get on the AIR ANYMORE? Hell everytime E-Ham blows the dust off of one of WIK's old articles, he damn near goes into overload! You still owe me breakfast Ray. Your buyin though, you son-of-a-gun PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : W9OY on 2008-11-01 the reason I got into ham radio was my imagination was captured. It was captured at age 6, and I was driven to become a ham/ Today's youngsters will get into it for the same reason. What captured me will likely not capture them. There is a company http://www.sdrtec.com/index_files/Page430.htm that is marketing the origional QEX SDR-1000 in India. I can well see many teenage imaginations being captured as they learn how to program for such a beast. The youngsters in that country and southeast asia and the old eastern block are hungry. Hungry to succeed and hungry to learn and grow. That is what will grow ham radio. It is likely ham radio will not grow in this country. It does not mean it will not grow. Will the last one who keels over on his Drake line please turn off the lights 73 W9OY Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| W9OY | 2008-11-01 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| the reason I got into ham radio was my imagination was captured. It was captured at age 6, and I was driven to become a ham/ Today's youngsters will get into it for the same reason. What captured me will likely not capture them. There is a company http://www.sdrtec.com/index_files/Page430.htm that is marketing the origional QEX SDR-1000 in India. I can well see many teenage imaginations being captured as they learn how to program for such a beast. The youngsters in that country and southeast asia and the old eastern block are hungry. Hungry to succeed and hungry to learn and grow. That is what will grow ham radio. It is likely ham radio will not grow in this country. It does not mean it will not grow. Will the last one who keels over on his Drake line please turn off the lights 73 W9OY Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| K6LHA | 2008-11-01 | |
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| RE: Resistance is futile. | ||
| K0IZ posted on 1 Nov 08: "Since there are unfortunately quite a few hams who think the hobby is dying, it might be of interest to know what members (including Duncan) of our club have been doing." We aren't in Kansas anymore... K0IZ: "During the past two years, well over 300! have taken club license classes, and have become hams (Technicians). Now classes have started for the next phase, General. At this year's field day, our GOTA station coordinator was 17 yr old Barry, and we have some great pictures of Lucy (age 6) and Barry making contacts. By the Lucy is a ham, one of our 300 new ones." A look at www.hamdata.com this morning (1 Nov 08) shows 27,742 new licensees over the past year but also 26,721 expirations. There's a difference of only 1,021 for 'growth.' It is miniscule growth, though, considering there are 661 thousand active individual licensees in USA amateur radio. Wait (shortly) for normal human attrition to catch up with the Boomer generation. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : K0IZ on 2008-11-01 Duncan (new ARRL Youth Editor) is a great choice for this position. He is a member amd VP of our radio club (Johnson County (KS) Amateur Radio Club, WØERH. Since there are unfortunately quite a few hams who think the hobby is dying, it might be of interest to know what members (including Duncan) of our club have been doing. During the past two years, well over 300! have taken club license classes, and have become hams (Technicians). Now classes have started for the next phase, General. At this year's field day, our GOTA station coordinator was 17 yr old Barry, and we have some great pictures of Lucy (age 6) and Barry making contacts. By the Lucy is a ham, one of our 300 new ones. So is the hobby dying? Not in our club! Reply to a comment by : KW4JX on 2008-11-01 You could make the High School Physics experimental and you should run Physics right through the school instead of cramming it into the last year. Young kids love Physics in the European schools, even in Elementary Schools! You could pay Physics teachers more than surplus teachers in other subjects. You should introduce Electronics as a school subject. You should definitely abolish incentive licensing. Other than for electrical safety, there is no place for assessment and tests in a hobby. All hams should be equal. Buffalo Gil W2/G3LBS Reply to a comment by : KC7YCL on 2008-10-31 You will be assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile. Your mothers will beg you to stop eating so many vegetables and to waste some time on computer games for a change. Maybe you will play your games on the internet via a metropolitan wide 802.11 wireless network using commercial off the shelf wi-fi gear modified for use under part 97 in the ham band with ham sized antennas and ham sized power outputs. And maybe a ham sandwich too. Ham sandwiches will also be assimilated. (I really hate star trek by the way, it's about as dorky as this message. Slap some gooey makeup on my forehead and call me a Klingon.) | ||
| K1CJS | 2008-11-01 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| You know what? I'm here to read articles and their comments--not books. It would be nice if comments could be kept shorter--so other people can understand 'em. ;-) Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS." N2EY replied: "Well, you should know, Len, being a newcomer to ham radio yourself." AF6AY: "trying to diss me as you have for years over on rec.radio.amateur.policy." I'm not trying to "diss" you, Len. I'm simply pointing out a fact: You're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I became a 'newcomer' to HF radio on the first week in February, 1953,.....55 1/2 years ago. There is NOTHING in or about amateur radio that is SO unique that 'all' who enter are 'always beginners.'" Nobody said anyhting like that, Len. What I wrote was the fact that you're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I've legally operated radios in seven other radio services before I got my amateur radio license." Sure - a cb, a cell phone, somebody else's marine radio, somebody else's aircraft radio, and some radios in the military as part of a team of personnel trained for the job. But you're still a newcomer to amateur radio. That's not a "diss", it's just a fact. N2EY: "It's odd, though, that you'd be yelling for newcomers when it was you who asked the FCC to create a minimum-age requirement of 14 years for all amateur radio licenses." AF6AY: "What you are referring to is my Comment on FCC Docket 98-143 that was accepted by them on 13 January 1999, two days before their stated end of all Comments." That was a Reply Comment, Len. AF6AY: "Anyone can access my Reply to Comments via the FCC ECFS." Here's a link: http://tinyurl.com/y6uhr3 AF6AY: "I never 'asked' the FCC specifically for that age limit." Yes, you did, Len. AF6AY: "It was a SUGGESTION based on the cute, cute story in the ARRL Letter showing two six-year-olds who passed (respectively) the Technician and Novice exams." It was a request that the rules be changed to ban anyone under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Why the licensing of six-year-olds bothered you, a non-amateur well past the age of 60 at the time, remains a mystery. This thread is about "bringing youth into amateur radio", and you seem to want to ban a considerable part of the youth of the USA from it. You even accused the ARRL VEs of fraud: http://tinyurl.com/2k5mb5 Say - it was an ARRL VE session where you earned your amateur license, wasn't it? AF6AY: "It is all explained in my Reply to Comments. A SUGGESTION to restore a lower age limit, to stop CHILDREN from being legally able to interfere worldwide on HF all by themselves." Not just HF. Your request was to ban all persons under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Yet you could not cite one case - not one single case! - of interference or other problems caused by the youth of a US amateur radio operator. Not one case. Yet you would ban all under 14 years of age, if you had your way, just because they are children, regardless of the tests they passed. In fact, if one bothers to look at the FCC Enforcement actions, the worst offenders in the realm of interference are people of *your* age group in 1998, Len. One of them, who lived not far from you, was sentenced to seven years in prison for his antics, IIRC. IOW, if age is the issue, it's not the young hams who are the enforcement problem. AF6AY: "Age fourteen was an arbitrary age." Based on nothing but your own personal biases against young people: http://tinyurl.com/2akck9 AF6AY: "YOU perceived a (gasp!) 'personal insult' and you've been trying, trying, trying to gain retribution for that terrible, terrible PERCEIVED personal insult ever since." Nope, not me, Len. I'm just pointing out some facts. AF6AY: "Two children of age six BEAT you by seven years." So what? Nothing new to me; there were younger hams than I back in 1967. Those two children beat *you* to an amateur radio license by 68 years, Len. I beat you by 61 years. Seems to me you're the one with the "perceived personal insult" problem. AF6AY: "you couldn't comment on ANYTHING ELSE I wrote in 13 pages of Reply to Comments on Docket 98-143." I couldn't Reply Comment to your Reply Comment because you mailed them to FCC just before the deadline. Your other comments can be summed up in a single sentence: You wanted the Morse Code test to go away, because you don't like Morse Code. AF6AY: "I've never asked, suggested, or made a big thing out of age requirements to the FCC since." Not the point, Len. You made a big thing out of it in Reply Comments to FCC and in other discussions: http://tinyurl.com/yxq3rr AF6AY: "I've written a lot on the various dockets about radio regulations at the FCC." Yes, you have, and it's been all basically the same stuff. I feel sorry for the folks at FCC who had to read all that verbiage. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST FCC exam in the first week of March, 1956. At age 23." That's nice, Len. I took my first FCC exam when I was 13. Got my Extra at age 16 and my Second Phone at 18. Never went beyond Second Phone because I went into electrical engineering and didn't need it. Got my BSEE at age 22. MSEE took a little longer. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST amateur radio exam at age 74, passed it on the first try, ALMOST on the 51st anniversary of my first FCC test. Just WHAT do you have against that?" Nothing, Len. I'm just pointing out that you're a newcomer to amateur radio, that's all. Why does that bother you so much? It seems to really bother you that I've had almost 40 years' more experience in amateur radio than you, though. AF6AY: "you've kept harping me over the years that I "should" have gotten a ham license "first." [just like YOU did] I 'should" have taken a code test. [just as you did]" I've never said you "should" have done those things, Len. You're either mistaken or lying about that. What I and others have pointed out is that you *could* have done those things, but refused or failed to do them. Yet you want to be revered as The Authority On How Amateur Radio Should Be. COULD, not SHOULD. Big difference there. AF6AY: "WHY 'should' I have done what YOU did?" Well, (and I'm not saying you SHOULD have done what I did, only that you COULD have done something similar), consider this: If you had gotten an amateur radio license when *you* were 13, you'd have had a head start on getting into electronics, electrical engineering, radio, etc. Maybe you'd have gotten a scholarship to a major four-year University, or advanced training in the military based on your knowledge learned as a ham. You'd probably have been able to get that First Phone at 18 instead of 23. Also, if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, your comments to FCC and other hams would have carried more weight and been more convincing because you'd be arguing as someone with personal involvement and experience, not as an outsider. And if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, by now you'd have had over 70 years of enjoying amateur radio, instead of less than 2 years. Most of all, I think that if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13 you'd be a lot happier and more pleasant person today. But that's just my opinion. AF6AY: "You've tried to argue that YOU know more about the US military than I do" Where and when, Len? Do you mean the time when I corrected some of your mistakes about Soviet aircraft? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/a8cdd2dca86c2951?dmode=source my Reply http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/e56247af30b0c9a7?dmode=source Or maybe your classic post "dissing" another US Military Radio Operator's service: http://tinyurl.com/27fbwe which later led to your admission that your account of an artillery barrage was based only on others' experience: http://tinyurl.com/2tpq2l AF6AY: "I just cannot get up the same 'patriotism' for US amateur radio." That's fine, Len. Heck, it's taken you a year and a half just to put up a simple HF vertical, even with the help of contractors. Nobody says your interest must match others'. AF6AY: "It is a HOBBY activity, a recreational pursuit for personal pleasure." For you. Others are more involved, such as those who helped provide communications during natural disasters and the Shuttle debris recovery. AF6AY: "All that is required is to follow lawful regulations. In the current regulations for US amateurs there is NO regulation that mandates OOK CW modes over any other mode." So what? AF6AY: "There is NO regulation in all of Title 47 C.F.R. that states anyone MUST have an amateur radio license first before having any other radio license." And there is NO regulation banning young people from Amateur Radio just because they are young. AF6AY: "Yet you've kept on harping about what I "should" have done." Where? Show me a SPECIFIC example - a direct quote where I said such a thing. I don't think you can. AF6AY: "I got my first amateur radio license at age 74, rather well into retirement. Went for the top class and got it first try." Why did you wait so long, Len? I got the Novice, Technician, Advanced and Extra licenses on my first try, too. The testing for those licenses was somewhat more involved back when I took them, though. And I passed all of them except the Extra before I ever set foot in high school. AF6AY: "That raised a lot of hackles of the entrenched, brainwashed-as-a-teener crowd who said I "should have" come up through the ranks [just like they did]." No, it didn't raise any hackles. It surprised a few folks, and brought you a round of congratulations, but that's all. And it really wasn't much of a surprise, seeing as how you'd told the world you were "going for Extra out of the box" more than 7 years before you actually did: http://tinyurl.com/c5qyv AF6AY: "I'm not going to apologize to anyone." Well, you never let facts get in the way of a good rant, either. AF6AY: "What I did was what ANYONE else could do, either test." It's been possible to go for the top class of US amateur license on the first go for more than 30 years. AF6AY: "HOW I use that amateur license is treated the same way for my commercial license: Follow regulations. I "owe" exactly NOTHING to any group or 'amateur community' nor self-styled 'ham patriots' (and 'radio cops') who demand I do what they say with my amateur license." Nobody has "demanded" that you do anything other than follow the rules and good amateur practice, Len. What some folks wonder is what you've actually done, that's all. You don't talk about what you really do in ham radio, so it's a good bet the answer is "not much". AF6AY: "You live to ARGUE against those who don't side with your opinions." Not me, Len. You're describing yourself. All anyone has to do is to look up your many postings under various screen identities, or your massive verbiage to FCC to see that. AF6AY: "At the same time you hide behind a lot of stock (but empty) phrases of 'civility' and 'good manners' while you 'save' selected message 'examples' for some kind of posterity (as if Google doesn't have any TeraByte servers)." Not true, Len. Unlike you, I don't have to call people insulting names to make a point. Instead, I use facts and sound reasoning. To back up my reasoning, I've simply provided links to some of your past messages, posted in public forums for all to see. That's not wrong, illegal, or "uncivil". Don't you want people to know what you've written in the past? AF6AY: "You only 'saved' them to ressurect at a much later time to 'prove' a point that YOU are the uncivil one." You're saying that it's "uncivil" to point out what another has written in the past. That's simply not true, Len. I post the links to back up my reasoning with facts and actual quotes. If your arguments were valid, you could do the same thing. But you don't post links to things you claim I have written. I suspect that's because you know your claims are false. AF6AY: "Your other questions are just rewritten goads of the past so that you can set up to ARGUE something." Not at all. I just want to know what you, a newcomer, define as "standards and practices of the 1950s". I think the real reason you duck such questions is that they would show that the things you do in amateur radio, such as VHF FM and maybe HF SSB, with manufactured amateur radio equipment, are all right out of those very same "standards and practices of the 1950s" that you denigrate. If you're really proud of what you do in Amateur Radio, Len, why are you so angry, defensive and secretive about it? Can't you tolerate different opinions without calling people names? That's enough for now. The ARRL CW Sweepstakes starts late this afternoon, and I'm going to be in it. A friend has loaned me a nice top-of-the-line solid-state transceiver to check out for him, and maybe I'll use it for Sweepstakes. The 'phone weekend is coming up, too! My first CW Sweepstakes was in 1968 and I've only missed one in all that time. Oh and the Phillies won the World Series. Big celebration in this town of winners! 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dudes, I have an awesome idea, let's take all the post's from the careful how you speak article and make a Ham Spirit Banner Article. Gotta go, I'm making popcorn!! Happy Halloween. PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dag-gummit, I think the Youth is right here on this Site/Hobby. Right before my very own eyes and I didn't even see it! Dag-Gummit! You all are as silly as chrome paint! This hobby has Teen Spirit written all over it!! I don't know how I missed it. Another thing, Super-op is a Japenese Phrase meaning some kind of Japenese meaning OK. Hello? Geez? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| K6LHA | 2008-11-01 | |
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| RE: Resistance is futile. | ||
| W4LGH posted on 1 Nov 08: "One should realize that the elected officers of that rotten league, are only figure heads and have no authority at all. The Rotten league is totally run by David Summer, his iron fist, and his hand picked exec. board. All of which are HI PAID employees of it, and only in it for the money...think I am kidding, take their money away and watch them run as fast as they can away from it!" As a point of fact, the ARRL Federal Tax Return for 2003 submissions to the IRS had the following annual payments to David Sumner, CEO of the ARRL: Compensation = $137,558.63 (salary) Benefits = $9,239.30 (not detailed) Expenses = $7,829.80 Total = $154,627.73 None of that is in the league of CEOs reported in national news, but it certainly isn't shabby for a boss of a membership organization as of 5 years ago, said membership organization having a membership of LESS than a quarter of all US amateur radio licensees. About the only way to a handle on the number of voting members of the ARRL is to get a "Publisher's Sworn Statement" about QST, the membership magazine. Two years ago the ARRL stopped posting that Statement in the sub-pages of info about QST. One has to inquire by surface mail or be a recognized (by them) probable ad space buyer to get an accurate response. MEMBERS can't get that information directly. I find that odd considering the continual statements by the League that the ARRL is "for" the membership. So voting, paid-up members are NOT allowed easy access to their own membership numbers? The excuses I've received is that "it takes up too much web space on servers" or a blatant "members don't really need such information." The best guess I can make is that it is less than 150 thousand now. It was about 155 thousand three years ago. IRS forms only request the 5 highest-paid staffers names and incomes. For 2003 this was reported as: Paul Rinaldo $113,710 Dennis Motschenbacher $ 99,752 Steven Ford $ 91,728 (QST editor) Jonathan Bloom $ 92,700 Walter Ireland $ 81,301 Total $479,191 Operating expense has "Other Salaries and Wages" reported in 2003 as $4,381,072 (presumably the Hq staff salaries, etc.). One can grossly approximate the size of lower-paid staff based on the $3,901,881 difference from the top-five paid staff. An undetailed item is "Compensation of Officers and Directors" expense of $533,093. Paid officers already have compensation, benefits, and expenses listed on an attachment. There's a difference of $53,902 which I am certain some League devotee will explain. :-) The 2003 IRS return has Gross Receipts reported as $13,296,953. Of that, $5,103,853 came from membership fees. In addition, the ARRL had corporate stocks and bonds to a total of $9,643,833; if those had paid dividends such income would be somewhere that only a book-keeper could unearth. :-) I don't pretend to be an accounting wizard but I've had a bit of experience in costing out electronic projects to be done in the electronics industry. A LOT of different things can be melded together under one heading and it is difficult to figure out exactly what is what just from gross numbers. All in all, one can say that the ARRL does, very definitely make a PROFIT despite its business classification as a "non-profit organization" for tax purposes. Highest staff salaries generally conform to rates of the electronics industry of five and six years ago. ............... W4LGH: "The "Annoying Rotten radio League" has been slowing killing Ham radio, for the sake of MONEY and GREED!!" Well, Alan, I wouldn't be that strong in an opinion. I would judge them to be merely complacent and stuck in a rut of their own phraseology, not having done that much out of their Headquarters. They've come to believe their own PR too much and might think they are invincible. "They've got theirs and they are all right." The League really hasn't done a lot for all of US amateur radio in the past decade...if one takes an unbiased overall view. They failed (more than once) to keep the beloved morse code test in regulations. Rather than a whole band at 60m they got us only five narrow channels. They've created the impression in most ham minds that only They have stopped BPL from spreading. Not quite true. BPL was doomed to fail quite on its own technical base. The electronics trade press hasn't shown any worthwhile growth in BPL startups. Wireless services continue to expand, but those don't interfere with the 'important' mission of ham HF operations. They did succeed in getting 'experimental' license for playing around just above the old 500 KHz emergency frequency but that is hardly 'pioneering' anything in a spectral region that was experienced and known for nearly 90 years. VHF and up? Forget it. The League seems to have brushed it aside as unimportant, unless some advertisers of that want to buy ad space. Try to appeal to Technician class and newcomers? Those are 'recognized' only in the advertisements of publications by the ARRL to 'upgrade' their class. A subliminal message to newcomers is "conform to what we say, embrace morse code and everyone hop on HF...but learn to love us because we are spay-shul." [the Church Lady said it better...:-) ] This morning (1 Nov 08) the stats page at ARRL.ORG had a total of 661,463 individual active licensees (still in their 10-year term) and 309,622 active Technician class. Those nearly-all no-code-test class now make up 46.81 percent of all active licensees. Their numbers are over twice that of the next larger license class, General. A look at HAMDATA.COM for the last year shows 27,742 new licensees but 26,721 expirations. The increase over the last year has been only 1,021. Technically that is 'growth' but it is miniscule growth. There's a HUGE potential market for ARRL publications to Technician class yet they hardly mention their existance. I just can't see why they IGNORE those licensees. The only explanation coming to mind is that League leaders are so stuck in OLD ways, how They began, that they cannot look down and see the future of US amateur radio. Apparently they are 'too good' for the masses and no one, absolutely NO ONE tells them what to do! :-) 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : W4LGH on 2008-11-01 The Hobby is NOT dying, it is alive and well and doing great. The only problem with the hobby is the ARRL, that "Annoying Rotten Radio League" that is Ham's worst enemy. One day Hams might wake up and realize this. If they would all get together and run that NAZI David Summer out of the league, there might be some hope to rebuild all the damage he has done, and maybe turn it around in time. One should realize that the elected officers of that rotten league, are only figure heads and have no authority at all. The Rotten league is totally run by David Summer, his iron fist, and his hand picked exec. board. All of which are HI PAID employees of it, and only in it for the money...think I am kidding, take their money away and watch them run as fast as they can away from it! The "Annoying Rotten radio League" has been slowing killing Ham radio, for the sake of MONEY and GREED!! 73 de W4LGH Alan http://www.w4lgh.com Reply to a comment by : K0IZ on 2008-11-01 Duncan (new ARRL Youth Editor) is a great choice for this position. He is a member amd VP of our radio club (Johnson County (KS) Amateur Radio Club, WØERH. Since there are unfortunately quite a few hams who think the hobby is dying, it might be of interest to know what members (including Duncan) of our club have been doing. During the past two years, well over 300! have taken club license classes, and have become hams (Technicians). Now classes have started for the next phase, General. At this year's field day, our GOTA station coordinator was 17 yr old Barry, and we have some great pictures of Lucy (age 6) and Barry making contacts. By the Lucy is a ham, one of our 300 new ones. So is the hobby dying? Not in our club! Reply to a comment by : KW4JX on 2008-11-01 You could make the High School Physics experimental and you should run Physics right through the school instead of cramming it into the last year. Young kids love Physics in the European schools, even in Elementary Schools! You could pay Physics teachers more than surplus teachers in other subjects. You should introduce Electronics as a school subject. You should definitely abolish incentive licensing. Other than for electrical safety, there is no place for assessment and tests in a hobby. All hams should be equal. Buffalo Gil W2/G3LBS Reply to a comment by : KC7YCL on 2008-10-31 You will be assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile. Your mothers will beg you to stop eating so many vegetables and to waste some time on computer games for a change. Maybe you will play your games on the internet via a metropolitan wide 802.11 wireless network using commercial off the shelf wi-fi gear modified for use under part 97 in the ham band with ham sized antennas and ham sized power outputs. And maybe a ham sandwich too. Ham sandwiches will also be assimilated. (I really hate star trek by the way, it's about as dorky as this message. Slap some gooey makeup on my forehead and call me a Klingon.) | ||
| N2QGV | 2008-11-01 | |
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| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| We could encourage the young ones by telling them that no matter what they do, they will not be real Hams until they are proficient with CW and have attained Extra Class elevated status. Heck, require them to sit and listen to 80M's should also spark their interest in amplifiers and audio enhancement. | ||
| N2EY | 2008-11-01 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| AF6AY wrote: "Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' ... Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably." You left out the most important parts, Len. But I can fix that. CB was never meant to be "hobby radio". Its purpose was for short-range personal and business radio only. That's why the power was low and there were rules about antenna height, maximum conversation time and distance, etc. Licenses were required, but they involved no testing, just filling in a form and sending it to FCC. And for the first few years, 11 meter CB wasn't too bad. CB users followed the rules and enjoyed their radios. After all, the FCC had set up the rules and would enforce them - right? But by the late 1960s, some CBers were simply ignoring the FCC rules. They'd run illegal high power to big antennas, contact distant stations, intentionally interfere with others, etc. They began to adopt "handles" (pseudonyms) and use phony accents to hide their real identities. Many simply didn't bother with licenses at all. Before long, the rules-following CB users were completely outnumbered, and soon disappeared. FCC finally gave up trying to license cb users completely. The oil crises of the 1970s, and the resulting 55 mph speed limit, were a major promotion for cb in the 1970s. CB became a way for truckers and others to avoid law enforcement officers and the speed limit, to the point that movies were made glorifying this aspect of CB. What really bothered many hams was the fact that these antics were not confined to the 23 channels of 11 meters. The use of illegal and often poorly-designed-and-operated high power amplifiers by cb users resulted in TV interference and other RFI problems. These problems were often blamed on hams with perfectly clean and legal transmitters, because the hams were easily located, identified themselves on the air and were known to FCC. To add to the mess, some CB users modified their radios to operate outside the legal CB channels, invading the allocations of other radio services near 27 MHz, including the 10 meter ham band. This sort of activity, called "HFing" or "freebanding", became so prevalent that in 1978 FCC passed regulations against the sale of various forms of RF power amplifiers. These regulations had little effect on the illegals, though. In the 1970s, the EIA (a manufacturer's group) petitioned FCC to reallocate the 220 MHz ham band to a new "Class E" CB service, using FM on many more channels. Both 11 meter CB users and hams opposed this, for obvious reasons. (The hams didn't want to lose another band while the CB users didn't want to have to replace practically their entire setups, and give up much of the long-distance capabilities of 11 meters). This isn't to say that all CB users were bad evil people. It's just a recounting of the *real* history of that radio service, and how it went downhill because some folks decided the rules didn't apply to them. Like many fads, though, CB eventually lost its fad status and is now much less popular than it once was. Cell phones, the internet, and the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit pretty much ended the CB era. The ironic thing is that, when CB had licenses, there was a minimum-age requirement for the license. 15 years of age, IIRC. You had a cb, didn't you, Len? A miniaturized Johnson, wasn't it? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-10-31 AB7E posted on October 30, 2008: "If 30 years ago you had the choice between a hobby that mostly just allowed you to talk into a mic (or tap out CW) when the band was open (and only to those who had licenses) and required you to have a bunch of different unique hardware (including outdoor antennas that upset the neighbors), versus being able to speak with all of your friends anytime with a cellphone smaller than your wallet or play interactive games online with stunning graphics (on a piece of hardware you already have and complete with free group voice chat) anytime with anyone anywhere in the world ... which would you have chosen?? I sincerely doubt it would have been ham radio." In all honesty I have to agree with that. Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' Before that end-of-the-1950s period the 'radio' interest had been with 'Hi-Fi' and the excellence of recordings on long-play vinyl grooved discs, then stereo tape, and finally, the beginning of widespread stereo FM broadcasting. ............. AB7E: "And of course this has nothing to do with the "laziness" or "immediate gratification" grumpy old men (ham radio is full of them) like to attribute to youngsters. Check out how many retired folks of both sexes are active participants in World of Warcraft or Second Life ... they dwarf late-in-life recruits to ham radio by orders of magnitude." I don't doubt it. Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably. In the next semi-niche hobby, personal computers, the BBS was born in the late 1970s and brought together a way-wider group of social interacters. BBSers who interacted in-person as well as on the phone lines with computer-modems were more homogenous representatives of the population. Few were radio-active but all were eager to try out this brand new medium of communications. In urban areas this kept on expanding until the Internet went public in 1991 and provided the first widespread international communications participation by computer-modem. In the 1980s the computer hobbyist community was rivaling amateur radio numbers, having more special-interest independent computer hobbyist magazines than were published in the USA at the time. By 1990 the cell phone was becoming smaller and less expensive and growing all over the country. In a decade it would become so small and so numerous that one in ten Americans were cell phone subscribers. By 2004 one in three Americans had cell phone subscriptions; teen-agers were able to use them to interact with other teeners and the 'texting' craze had begun. Why not? The price was far lower than portable ham gear, could be carried in a shirt pocket or small purse and used much without racking up a sizeable phone bill. ............ AB7E: "I would gladly try to mentor anyone who showed a budding interest in ham radio, but I don't see the point in trying to be an evangelist for the hobby." I would rather evangelize the electronics industry to younger people. It is far bigger than amateurism in radio and has FAR greater scope and variation on what it can do. It can also provide a very decent wage and be a fun job at the same time. Amateur radio is a niche hobby and the old-timers have managed to both stratify it and mummify it in old standards and practices suitable for long-past times. For younger people, the rationale that a ham license lets you "advance the state of the radio art and talk to foreign folk for 'free' on one's own station" is trite and dated. It might have worked in the 1960s but this is four decades (and two generations) later. For one thing it is definitely NOT 'free' since a decent station for HF is going to cost more than a complete PC set-up. For another, HF is NOT that reliable 24/7 and the average lower-power HF ham bands are at the mercy of the ionosphere. The only 'advancing the art' in HF radio is inside the radios and that technology has almost saturated. .............. AB7E: "Like NN4RH says, kids aren't idiots (or lazy when it comes to interesting things), and if they have any interest in what ham radio has to offer they will find it." Absolutely true. Based on my 'beginner, newbie' life experience over the last 76 years, EVERY old-generation curmudgeon gets all disgusted about the do-nothing younger generation. They just won't recognize that that THEY were once considered 'do-nothing' young wastrels by generation-older curmudgeons of their day. :-) I've read of the same attitudes prevalent in most societies over previous centuries...Pompeii curmudgeons were probably cussing THEIR do-nothing young folks just before Vesuvious blew its top and buried everyone. :-) .............. AB7E: "Most of this talk about enticing young folks into the hobby (and it is just a hobby ... it isn't the path to heaven) simply sounds to me like people in a niche activity looking for validation. Why else would you consider it to be important?" Much of the TALK is simply rationalization. On the other hand, if license numbers start to drop again and newcomers don't replace the usual human-attrition expirations, that WILL be noticed by commercial groups that might want to use ham bands for other purposes. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : AB7E on 2008-10-31 KE7UXE: "Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal." How do you figure? That isn't even remotely true. Not only is global internet voice chat full duplex, FM quality, real time, and free ... people can use it while collaborating in an online game, or while working together on a drawing or file, or while streaming music to each other. None of that is new, either ... it's been available for years from multiple sources. This is exactly what I mean. Hams lament that kids today are too lazy and disconnected with technology to discover ham radio, and the reality is that hams are too disconnected to understand the kinds of alternatives for kids that make ham radio merely a legacy curiosity for them. Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 "ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board." No it isn't...it is giving them friends to text who happen to be in Estonia, Spain and Japan. Sadly, for many the alure of ham radio is the gear. IMO it ought to be the opportunity to talk with a wide variety of people from all over the world. Ham radio is a social activity. That is what kids might like. If later they get interested in the equipment, so be it. Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal. Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| K6LHA | 2008-11-01 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| N4CQR wrote on November 1, 2008: "Whatta post!" True. Looks like Jimmie is carbo-loaded. I've suspected he goes out trick-or-treating on Halloween, probably dressed up in a Hiram Percy Maxim suit. :-) If ya don't give him candy he goes into those accusatory monologues until ya do... Len, AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N4CQR on 2008-11-01 Whatta post! Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS." N2EY replied: "Well, you should know, Len, being a newcomer to ham radio yourself." AF6AY: "trying to diss me as you have for years over on rec.radio.amateur.policy." I'm not trying to "diss" you, Len. I'm simply pointing out a fact: You're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I became a 'newcomer' to HF radio on the first week in February, 1953,.....55 1/2 years ago. There is NOTHING in or about amateur radio that is SO unique that 'all' who enter are 'always beginners.'" Nobody said anyhting like that, Len. What I wrote was the fact that you're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I've legally operated radios in seven other radio services before I got my amateur radio license." Sure - a cb, a cell phone, somebody else's marine radio, somebody else's aircraft radio, and some radios in the military as part of a team of personnel trained for the job. But you're still a newcomer to amateur radio. That's not a "diss", it's just a fact. N2EY: "It's odd, though, that you'd be yelling for newcomers when it was you who asked the FCC to create a minimum-age requirement of 14 years for all amateur radio licenses." AF6AY: "What you are referring to is my Comment on FCC Docket 98-143 that was accepted by them on 13 January 1999, two days before their stated end of all Comments." That was a Reply Comment, Len. AF6AY: "Anyone can access my Reply to Comments via the FCC ECFS." Here's a link: http://tinyurl.com/y6uhr3 AF6AY: "I never 'asked' the FCC specifically for that age limit." Yes, you did, Len. AF6AY: "It was a SUGGESTION based on the cute, cute story in the ARRL Letter showing two six-year-olds who passed (respectively) the Technician and Novice exams." It was a request that the rules be changed to ban anyone under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Why the licensing of six-year-olds bothered you, a non-amateur well past the age of 60 at the time, remains a mystery. This thread is about "bringing youth into amateur radio", and you seem to want to ban a considerable part of the youth of the USA from it. You even accused the ARRL VEs of fraud: http://tinyurl.com/2k5mb5 Say - it was an ARRL VE session where you earned your amateur license, wasn't it? AF6AY: "It is all explained in my Reply to Comments. A SUGGESTION to restore a lower age limit, to stop CHILDREN from being legally able to interfere worldwide on HF all by themselves." Not just HF. Your request was to ban all persons under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Yet you could not cite one case - not one single case! - of interference or other problems caused by the youth of a US amateur radio operator. Not one case. Yet you would ban all under 14 years of age, if you had your way, just because they are children, regardless of the tests they passed. In fact, if one bothers to look at the FCC Enforcement actions, the worst offenders in the realm of interference are people of *your* age group in 1998, Len. One of them, who lived not far from you, was sentenced to seven years in prison for his antics, IIRC. IOW, if age is the issue, it's not the young hams who are the enforcement problem. AF6AY: "Age fourteen was an arbitrary age." Based on nothing but your own personal biases against young people: http://tinyurl.com/2akck9 AF6AY: "YOU perceived a (gasp!) 'personal insult' and you've been trying, trying, trying to gain retribution for that terrible, terrible PERCEIVED personal insult ever since." Nope, not me, Len. I'm just pointing out some facts. AF6AY: "Two children of age six BEAT you by seven years." So what? Nothing new to me; there were younger hams than I back in 1967. Those two children beat *you* to an amateur radio license by 68 years, Len. I beat you by 61 years. Seems to me you're the one with the "perceived personal insult" problem. AF6AY: "you couldn't comment on ANYTHING ELSE I wrote in 13 pages of Reply to Comments on Docket 98-143." I couldn't Reply Comment to your Reply Comment because you mailed them to FCC just before the deadline. Your other comments can be summed up in a single sentence: You wanted the Morse Code test to go away, because you don't like Morse Code. AF6AY: "I've never asked, suggested, or made a big thing out of age requirements to the FCC since." Not the point, Len. You made a big thing out of it in Reply Comments to FCC and in other discussions: http://tinyurl.com/yxq3rr AF6AY: "I've written a lot on the various dockets about radio regulations at the FCC." Yes, you have, and it's been all basically the same stuff. I feel sorry for the folks at FCC who had to read all that verbiage. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST FCC exam in the first week of March, 1956. At age 23." That's nice, Len. I took my first FCC exam when I was 13. Got my Extra at age 16 and my Second Phone at 18. Never went beyond Second Phone because I went into electrical engineering and didn't need it. Got my BSEE at age 22. MSEE took a little longer. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST amateur radio exam at age 74, passed it on the first try, ALMOST on the 51st anniversary of my first FCC test. Just WHAT do you have against that?" Nothing, Len. I'm just pointing out that you're a newcomer to amateur radio, that's all. Why does that bother you so much? It seems to really bother you that I've had almost 40 years' more experience in amateur radio than you, though. AF6AY: "you've kept harping me over the years that I "should" have gotten a ham license "first." [just like YOU did] I 'should" have taken a code test. [just as you did]" I've never said you "should" have done those things, Len. You're either mistaken or lying about that. What I and others have pointed out is that you *could* have done those things, but refused or failed to do them. Yet you want to be revered as The Authority On How Amateur Radio Should Be. COULD, not SHOULD. Big difference there. AF6AY: "WHY 'should' I have done what YOU did?" Well, (and I'm not saying you SHOULD have done what I did, only that you COULD have done something similar), consider this: If you had gotten an amateur radio license when *you* were 13, you'd have had a head start on getting into electronics, electrical engineering, radio, etc. Maybe you'd have gotten a scholarship to a major four-year University, or advanced training in the military based on your knowledge learned as a ham. You'd probably have been able to get that First Phone at 18 instead of 23. Also, if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, your comments to FCC and other hams would have carried more weight and been more convincing because you'd be arguing as someone with personal involvement and experience, not as an outsider. And if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, by now you'd have had over 70 years of enjoying amateur radio, instead of less than 2 years. Most of all, I think that if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13 you'd be a lot happier and more pleasant person today. But that's just my opinion. AF6AY: "You've tried to argue that YOU know more about the US military than I do" Where and when, Len? Do you mean the time when I corrected some of your mistakes about Soviet aircraft? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/a8cdd2dca86c2951?dmode=source my Reply http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/e56247af30b0c9a7?dmode=source Or maybe your classic post "dissing" another US Military Radio Operator's service: http://tinyurl.com/27fbwe which later led to your admission that your account of an artillery barrage was based only on others' experience: http://tinyurl.com/2tpq2l AF6AY: "I just cannot get up the same 'patriotism' for US amateur radio." That's fine, Len. Heck, it's taken you a year and a half just to put up a simple HF vertical, even with the help of contractors. Nobody says your interest must match others'. AF6AY: "It is a HOBBY activity, a recreational pursuit for personal pleasure." For you. Others are more involved, such as those who helped provide communications during natural disasters and the Shuttle debris recovery. AF6AY: "All that is required is to follow lawful regulations. In the current regulations for US amateurs there is NO regulation that mandates OOK CW modes over any other mode." So what? AF6AY: "There is NO regulation in all of Title 47 C.F.R. that states anyone MUST have an amateur radio license first before having any other radio license." And there is NO regulation banning young people from Amateur Radio just because they are young. AF6AY: "Yet you've kept on harping about what I "should" have done." Where? Show me a SPECIFIC example - a direct quote where I said such a thing. I don't think you can. AF6AY: "I got my first amateur radio license at age 74, rather well into retirement. Went for the top class and got it first try." Why did you wait so long, Len? I got the Novice, Technician, Advanced and Extra licenses on my first try, too. The testing for those licenses was somewhat more involved back when I took them, though. And I passed all of them except the Extra before I ever set foot in high school. AF6AY: "That raised a lot of hackles of the entrenched, brainwashed-as-a-teener crowd who said I "should have" come up through the ranks [just like they did]." No, it didn't raise any hackles. It surprised a few folks, and brought you a round of congratulations, but that's all. And it really wasn't much of a surprise, seeing as how you'd told the world you were "going for Extra out of the box" more than 7 years before you actually did: http://tinyurl.com/c5qyv AF6AY: "I'm not going to apologize to anyone." Well, you never let facts get in the way of a good rant, either. AF6AY: "What I did was what ANYONE else could do, either test." It's been possible to go for the top class of US amateur license on the first go for more than 30 years. AF6AY: "HOW I use that amateur license is treated the same way for my commercial license: Follow regulations. I "owe" exactly NOTHING to any group or 'amateur community' nor self-styled 'ham patriots' (and 'radio cops') who demand I do what they say with my amateur license." Nobody has "demanded" that you do anything other than follow the rules and good amateur practice, Len. What some folks wonder is what you've actually done, that's all. You don't talk about what you really do in ham radio, so it's a good bet the answer is "not much". AF6AY: "You live to ARGUE against those who don't side with your opinions." Not me, Len. You're describing yourself. All anyone has to do is to look up your many postings under various screen identities, or your massive verbiage to FCC to see that. AF6AY: "At the same time you hide behind a lot of stock (but empty) phrases of 'civility' and 'good manners' while you 'save' selected message 'examples' for some kind of posterity (as if Google doesn't have any TeraByte servers)." Not true, Len. Unlike you, I don't have to call people insulting names to make a point. Instead, I use facts and sound reasoning. To back up my reasoning, I've simply provided links to some of your past messages, posted in public forums for all to see. That's not wrong, illegal, or "uncivil". Don't you want people to know what you've written in the past? AF6AY: "You only 'saved' them to ressurect at a much later time to 'prove' a point that YOU are the uncivil one." You're saying that it's "uncivil" to point out what another has written in the past. That's simply not true, Len. I post the links to back up my reasoning with facts and actual quotes. If your arguments were valid, you could do the same thing. But you don't post links to things you claim I have written. I suspect that's because you know your claims are false. AF6AY: "Your other questions are just rewritten goads of the past so that you can set up to ARGUE something." Not at all. I just want to know what you, a newcomer, define as "standards and practices of the 1950s". I think the real reason you duck such questions is that they would show that the things you do in amateur radio, such as VHF FM and maybe HF SSB, with manufactured amateur radio equipment, are all right out of those very same "standards and practices of the 1950s" that you denigrate. If you're really proud of what you do in Amateur Radio, Len, why are you so angry, defensive and secretive about it? Can't you tolerate different opinions without calling people names? That's enough for now. The ARRL CW Sweepstakes starts late this afternoon, and I'm going to be in it. A friend has loaned me a nice top-of-the-line solid-state transceiver to check out for him, and maybe I'll use it for Sweepstakes. The 'phone weekend is coming up, too! My first CW Sweepstakes was in 1968 and I've only missed one in all that time. Oh and the Phillies won the World Series. Big celebration in this town of winners! 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dudes, I have an awesome idea, let's take all the post's from the careful how you speak article and make a Ham Spirit Banner Article. Gotta go, I'm making popcorn!! Happy Halloween. PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dag-gummit, I think the Youth is right here on this Site/Hobby. Right before my very own eyes and I didn't even see it! Dag-Gummit! You all are as silly as chrome paint! This hobby has Teen Spirit written all over it!! I don't know how I missed it. Another thing, Super-op is a Japenese Phrase meaning some kind of Japenese meaning OK. Hello? Geez? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| KE4ZHN | 2008-11-01 | |
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| RE: Resistance is futile. | ||
| Alan W4LGH: I couldnt agree with you more about the league. Unfortunately the blind sheep keep sending them money and kissing Sumners backside because too many are incapable of thinking for themselves. Every time I hear one of these blind followers blabbering on about the league being the only voice I just laugh. The only voices in Newington are Sumners and money. As for bringing youth into the hobby, this old saw has been played out a thousand times. If youth want to get into the hobby they will come to it. Theres no point in trying to force it on them because it will only serve to drive them away. Reply to a comment by : W4LGH on 2008-11-01 The Hobby is NOT dying, it is alive and well and doing great. The only problem with the hobby is the ARRL, that "Annoying Rotten Radio League" that is Ham's worst enemy. One day Hams might wake up and realize this. If they would all get together and run that NAZI David Summer out of the league, there might be some hope to rebuild all the damage he has done, and maybe turn it around in time. One should realize that the elected officers of that rotten league, are only figure heads and have no authority at all. The Rotten league is totally run by David Summer, his iron fist, and his hand picked exec. board. All of which are HI PAID employees of it, and only in it for the money...think I am kidding, take their money away and watch them run as fast as they can away from it! The "Annoying Rotten radio League" has been slowing killing Ham radio, for the sake of MONEY and GREED!! 73 de W4LGH Alan http://www.w4lgh.com Reply to a comment by : K0IZ on 2008-11-01 Duncan (new ARRL Youth Editor) is a great choice for this position. He is a member amd VP of our radio club (Johnson County (KS) Amateur Radio Club, WØERH. Since there are unfortunately quite a few hams who think the hobby is dying, it might be of interest to know what members (including Duncan) of our club have been doing. During the past two years, well over 300! have taken club license classes, and have become hams (Technicians). Now classes have started for the next phase, General. At this year's field day, our GOTA station coordinator was 17 yr old Barry, and we have some great pictures of Lucy (age 6) and Barry making contacts. By the Lucy is a ham, one of our 300 new ones. So is the hobby dying? Not in our club! Reply to a comment by : KW4JX on 2008-11-01 You could make the High School Physics experimental and you should run Physics right through the school instead of cramming it into the last year. Young kids love Physics in the European schools, even in Elementary Schools! You could pay Physics teachers more than surplus teachers in other subjects. You should introduce Electronics as a school subject. You should definitely abolish incentive licensing. Other than for electrical safety, there is no place for assessment and tests in a hobby. All hams should be equal. Buffalo Gil W2/G3LBS Reply to a comment by : KC7YCL on 2008-10-31 You will be assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile. Your mothers will beg you to stop eating so many vegetables and to waste some time on computer games for a change. Maybe you will play your games on the internet via a metropolitan wide 802.11 wireless network using commercial off the shelf wi-fi gear modified for use under part 97 in the ham band with ham sized antennas and ham sized power outputs. And maybe a ham sandwich too. Ham sandwiches will also be assimilated. (I really hate star trek by the way, it's about as dorky as this message. Slap some gooey makeup on my forehead and call me a Klingon.) | ||
| N2EY | 2008-11-01 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| I left something out of that response to AF6AY.. AF6AY wrote: "A SUGGESTION to restore a lower age limit, to stop CHILDREN from being legally able to interfere worldwide on HF all by themselves." There has never been a lower age limit for US amateur radio licenses. Not since they were first required way back in 1912. All that has ever been required is to pass the tests. The FCC cannot "restore" what never existed in the first place. If you're going to talk about amateur radio history, Len, at least get your facts straight. In the 96 years of US amateur radio licensing, the federal government has never seen any reason to prevent CHILDREN from being full participants. From the very earliest days, young children under the age of 14 have passed the exams and gone on the air as radio amateurs, without age-related problems. 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-10-31 Posted By N2EY on Halloween (while waiting in the Pumpkin Patch?): AF6AY wrote: "The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS." "Well, you should know, Len, being a newcomer to ham radio yourself." Jimmie, you are becoming a zombie (Halloween being appropriate) for this NON-discussion in trying to diss me as you have for years over on rec.radio.amateur.policy. You should quit trying because you are not trying, just tiring and trite, offering nothing in solutions other than What Is Written by the ARRL long ago. I became a 'newcomer' to HF radio on the first week in February, 1953, as a member of the United States Army and assigned to a military transmitting station serving the Far East Command Headquarters in Tokyo. That was 55 1/2 years ago. There is NOTHING in or about amateur radio that is SO unique that 'all' who enter are 'always beginners.' If you REALLY think that, then you have NO experience in any other radio service. I've legally operated radios in seven other radio services before I got my amateur radio license. ........... N2EY (Boy Wonder): "It's odd, though, that you'd be yelling for newcomers when it was you who asked the FCC to create a minimum-age requirement of 14 years for all amateur radio licenses." Now, now, putting political spin on something is for politicians, not amateurs. We will have quite enough of that for the next half week until Tuesday. What you are (continually through the years) referring to is my Comment on FCC Docket 98-143 that was accepted by them on 13 January 1999, two days before their stated end of all Comments. Anyone can access my Reply to Comments via the FCC ECFS. That Reply to Comments acceptance was OVER 9 1/2 years ago and Docket 98-143 is DEAD, fini, done. I never 'asked' the FCC specifically for that age limit. It was a SUGGESTION based on the cute, cute story in the ARRL Letter showing two six-year-olds who passed (respectively) the Technician and Novice exams. It is all explained in my Reply to Comments. A SUGGESTION to restore a lower age limit, to stop CHILDREN from being legally able to interfere worldwide on HF all by themselves. Age fourteen was an arbitrary age. What I didn't know back in December of 1998 when I wrote that Reply to Comments, was that YOU got your very first license at age 13. YOU perceived a (gasp!) 'personal insult' and you've been trying, trying, trying to gain retribution for that terrible, terrible PERCEIVED personal insult ever since. Poor baby. Two children of age six BEAT you by seven years. Tsk, tsk. You have, ever since, been making a draconian THING out of the (perceived) terrible insult and keep trying to stir your own mental pot and salve your 'wounds' with in-fighting about opinions on AGE...in reference to YOURSELF. Worse yet, you couldn't comment on ANYTHING ELSE I wrote in 13 pages of Reply to Comments on Docket 98-143. Only what was on the last page because YOU felt 'hurt.' Awwww... I've never asked, suggested, or made a big thing out of age requirements to the FCC since. I've written a lot on the various dockets about radio regulations at the FCC. ALL of those are available for access to anyone. Just use the ECFS Search feature and you will find all of them with just my legal name as the search key. But, those dockets have ALREADY been argued, replied to, agreed with, all opinions expressed and are FINISHED. Trying to drag up the old ones does NO good. They will NOT change if you argue against them NOW. I took my FIRST FCC exam in the first week of March, 1956. At age 23. Went for FIRST Class Radiotelephone, passed it on the first try. Kept it renewed even as it was changed to "no class" General Radiotelephone and, eventually, to NO renewals required. Spent a whole half century working IN electronics. Then I took my FIRST amateur radio exam at age 74, passed it on the first try, ALMOST on the 51st anniversary of my first FCC test. Just WHAT do you have against that? Oh, yes, you've kept harping me over the years that I "should" have gotten a ham license "first." [just like YOU did] I 'should" have taken a code test. [just as you did] WHY 'should' I have done what YOU did? Boy Wonder, you are VERY patriotic about amateur radio, especially morse code. So much so that most of your phrasing is right from the good book of Ham Radio As It Should Be Done, written by that group in a suburb of Hartford. To you time is frozen in the OLD ways, of radiotelegraphy being the epitome of all radio communications. [it isn't but you couldn't see anything else over the last decade] I'm a patriot of the United States of America. So much so that, at a time of past war in Asia I was a volunteer for Army service. THAT volunteerism is identified by the prefix on my old Army Serial Number, RA16408336. Back then everyone who went into military service, volunteer or draftee, took a vow to defend the Constitution of the USA. They bet their LIFE on it. No one could bet more. The Cold War was hot then. In the past over on RRAP you've tried to make fun of that, to belittle it as much as you could. Yet YOU NEVER SERVED the USA in ANY way, either in the military nor as a civilian. You've tried to argue that YOU know more about the US military than I do, yet you never served one day in any military. That does not compute. It raises no flags, erects no bunting for you. I just cannot get up the same 'patriotism' for US amateur radio. It is a HOBBY activity, a recreational pursuit for personal pleasure. It is purely voluntary. All that is required is to follow lawful regulations. In the current regulations for US amateurs there is NO regulation that mandates OOK CW modes over any other mode. There is NO regulation in all of Title 47 C.F.R. that states anyone MUST have an amateur radio license first before having any other radio license. Yet you've kept on harping about what I "should" have done. Would you take a vow to defend the ARRL constitution with your LIFE if needs be? I got my first amateur radio license at age 74, rather well into retirement. Went for the top class and got it first try. That raised a lot of hackles of the entrenched, brainwashed-as-a-teener crowd who said I "should have" come up through the ranks [just like they did]. I'm not going to apologize to anyone. What I did was what ANYONE else could do, either test. What I did was quite legal. I owe NO allegiance to any organization in a suburb of Hartford. I'm still a voting member there, but it won't be for too much longer. HOW I use that amateur license is treated the same way for my commercial license: Follow regulations. I "owe" exactly NOTHING to any group or 'amateur community' nor self-styled 'ham patriots' (and 'radio cops') who demand I do what they say with my amateur license. If that still infuriates you (as it has in the past) too bad, Boy Wonder, you just can't dictate the how and why of what I care to do. Based on a decade of comments from you - not really a numerically-accurate 10 years, it only seems an eternity - I'm pretty sure what you will try to argue next. Doesn't matter. Maybe I will reply, maybe I won't and just ignore it. Your so-called 'discussion' messages are generally counterproductive. You live to ARGUE against those who don't side with your opinions. At the same time you hide behind a lot of stock (but empty) phrases of 'civility' and 'good manners' while you 'save' selected message 'examples' for some kind of posterity (as if Google doesn't have any TeraByte servers). You only 'saved' them to ressurect at a much later time to 'prove' a point that YOU are the uncivil one. ............ Your other questions are just rewritten goads of the past so that you can set up to ARGUE something. If I want goads of the past, I'll go re-read Dickens. Len, AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-10-31 AF6AY wrote: "The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS." Well, you should know, Len, being a newcomer to ham radio yourself. It's odd, though, that you'd be yelling for newcomers when it was you who asked the FCC to create a minimum-age requirement of 14 years for all amateur radio licenses. AF6AY: "Idealism in keeping the standards and practices of the 1950s forever isn't going to cut it nor make those idealists more noble than the rest of the population." What "standards and practices of the 1950s" do you mean, Len? The use of SSB? FM? HF? Rigs that are tunable rather than channelized? What are *you* doing in amateur radio that's any different? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-10-30 W3OZ posted on October 30, 2008: "I got into ham radio as a kid. That was then, now is now. There were no computers and little TV." I got into professional HF radio at age 21, courtesy of the US Army. That was a very long ago 'then' with NO satellites of any kind lofted and semi-conductors relegated to just germanium and silicon diodes and stinky selenium rectifier stacks. W3QZ: "Amateur radio WAS the latest and greatest of technology then." In all fairness, I would have to say a definite NO based on what was going on in ALL radio. Moving to southern California aerospace industry in 1956 I became acquainted with more hams in 6-land than I had in my native 9-land. 'Old-timer' hams (relatively speaking) of then were actively rationalizing their hobby by saying "we are advancing the state of the art in radio." Nonsense to me, having worked IN 24/7 HF comms for three years...but I had to be polite to my elders (of then) and had to stop explaining what I'd personally experienced. Most of those hams had no comparable experience other than their own single-operator amateur station, never venturing beyond HF, using technology based on 1930s vacuum tube architecture. I was then working IN aerospace from VHF and up in frequency using technology (most of it still using vacuum tubes) that would have left the average ham baffled in wonderment. ............... W3QZ: "Why the heck are we so concerned with getting young people in the hobby, we have a big pool of folks that are older who we should be marketing into our hobby." Big, big disagreement there. ARRL is finally, after all these many years of general technological stratification (and perhaps mummification), is beginning to see the light in terms of license numbers and How It Looks To Government. They HAVE been, continually, "marketing that older generation." This morning of the 30th of October 2008 the ARRL license stats page shows the following: 661,182 total single-operator licenses still in their 10-year license term. Of those, 309,407 are Technician class or 46.8 percent of the total. The no-code-test Technician class has existed for only 17 years yet it has become, by far, the LARGEST class in US amateur radio. Without any demographic proof whatsoever, it would still be safe to say that the average age of Technician class licensees is UNDER 40. Is it still logical to assume that all of those younger people are 'excited' over continual repetition of operating standards and practices of the 1930s or even 1950s? I don't think so. Think about numbers alone. The Federal government does that and the FCC regulates amateur radio, not a suburb of Hartford, Connecticutt. Had there been NO no-code-test Technician class, the number of amateur radio licensees would be around HALF of what they are today. That's just from normal human attrition of the boomer generation. Before the fateful date of 23 February 2007 the licensee numbers had been SHRINKING at a rate of about 3K per year after the peak on July 2, 2003...even as the Technician class had been actively increasing in numbers all that while. [see also www.hamdata.com for newcomers v. expirations and total licenses granted (including those in grace periods)] In the last two years the NEWCOMERS are just barely keeping the US amateur radio license numbers up by very slightly overcoming the expirations. The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS. Without those newcomers, the US ham numbers will keep on shrinking until the 'amateur community' becomes too small to affect FCC decisions in regards to favoring amateur regulations. Legislators will see that, too. The ARRL needs income to keep itself together. That's why they wisely organized that big PUBLISHING HOUSE they have. It MUST sell those publishing products to stay alive. Membership fees only serve to keep the staff of QST working, pay for printing and mailing costs. Membership numbers are given out to prospective ad space buyers and income from such ad space sales can be considerable. Outside of showing some pictures of (member) offspring or ham scholarship winners, the pages of QST have been largely devoid of information for the Technician class. Even if that class is approaching HALF of all active licensees, the ARRL hasn't really seemed to care about them. That's strange to me. It doesn't make good marketing sense to ignore nearly half of a potential income group. ARRL has a virtual monopoly on publications specifically for the radio amateur. Its only real competition now is CQ and some (few) columns in Popular Communications. The Internet is the biggest competitor for amateur radio information dissemination, in forums such as this and over on QRZ.com and dozens of others. But, all of these websites offer the usual bombardment of advertising that all of us see for everything else in life. It is all well and good to make happy for a niche group of a niche group of radio hobbyists. But, if those niches have fewer and fewer numbers, Legislators and Commissioners just aren't going to listen to their requests. Idealism in keeping the standards and practices of the 1950s forever isn't going to cut it nor make those idealists more noble than the rest of the population. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : W3OZ on 2008-10-30 I got into ham radio as a kid. That was then, now is now. There were no computers and little TV. Amateur radio WAS the latest and greatest of technology then. I don’t want any of my grandkids sitting on their butts doing radio. I want them active in sports, and physical activities. They have enough sedimentary activities they must do like study so they can compete with others in school. When they are old and broken down like me they can have plenty of time for ham radio. Why the heck are we so concerned with getting young people in the hobby, we have a big pool of folks that are older who we should be marketing into our hobby. | ||
| N4CQR | 2008-11-01 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Whatta post! Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-11-01 AF6AY wrote: "The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS." N2EY replied: "Well, you should know, Len, being a newcomer to ham radio yourself." AF6AY: "trying to diss me as you have for years over on rec.radio.amateur.policy." I'm not trying to "diss" you, Len. I'm simply pointing out a fact: You're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I became a 'newcomer' to HF radio on the first week in February, 1953,.....55 1/2 years ago. There is NOTHING in or about amateur radio that is SO unique that 'all' who enter are 'always beginners.'" Nobody said anyhting like that, Len. What I wrote was the fact that you're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I've legally operated radios in seven other radio services before I got my amateur radio license." Sure - a cb, a cell phone, somebody else's marine radio, somebody else's aircraft radio, and some radios in the military as part of a team of personnel trained for the job. But you're still a newcomer to amateur radio. That's not a "diss", it's just a fact. N2EY: "It's odd, though, that you'd be yelling for newcomers when it was you who asked the FCC to create a minimum-age requirement of 14 years for all amateur radio licenses." AF6AY: "What you are referring to is my Comment on FCC Docket 98-143 that was accepted by them on 13 January 1999, two days before their stated end of all Comments." That was a Reply Comment, Len. AF6AY: "Anyone can access my Reply to Comments via the FCC ECFS." Here's a link: http://tinyurl.com/y6uhr3 AF6AY: "I never 'asked' the FCC specifically for that age limit." Yes, you did, Len. AF6AY: "It was a SUGGESTION based on the cute, cute story in the ARRL Letter showing two six-year-olds who passed (respectively) the Technician and Novice exams." It was a request that the rules be changed to ban anyone under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Why the licensing of six-year-olds bothered you, a non-amateur well past the age of 60 at the time, remains a mystery. This thread is about "bringing youth into amateur radio", and you seem to want to ban a considerable part of the youth of the USA from it. You even accused the ARRL VEs of fraud: http://tinyurl.com/2k5mb5 Say - it was an ARRL VE session where you earned your amateur license, wasn't it? AF6AY: "It is all explained in my Reply to Comments. A SUGGESTION to restore a lower age limit, to stop CHILDREN from being legally able to interfere worldwide on HF all by themselves." Not just HF. Your request was to ban all persons under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Yet you could not cite one case - not one single case! - of interference or other problems caused by the youth of a US amateur radio operator. Not one case. Yet you would ban all under 14 years of age, if you had your way, just because they are children, regardless of the tests they passed. In fact, if one bothers to look at the FCC Enforcement actions, the worst offenders in the realm of interference are people of *your* age group in 1998, Len. One of them, who lived not far from you, was sentenced to seven years in prison for his antics, IIRC. IOW, if age is the issue, it's not the young hams who are the enforcement problem. AF6AY: "Age fourteen was an arbitrary age." Based on nothing but your own personal biases against young people: http://tinyurl.com/2akck9 AF6AY: "YOU perceived a (gasp!) 'personal insult' and you've been trying, trying, trying to gain retribution for that terrible, terrible PERCEIVED personal insult ever since." Nope, not me, Len. I'm just pointing out some facts. AF6AY: "Two children of age six BEAT you by seven years." So what? Nothing new to me; there were younger hams than I back in 1967. Those two children beat *you* to an amateur radio license by 68 years, Len. I beat you by 61 years. Seems to me you're the one with the "perceived personal insult" problem. AF6AY: "you couldn't comment on ANYTHING ELSE I wrote in 13 pages of Reply to Comments on Docket 98-143." I couldn't Reply Comment to your Reply Comment because you mailed them to FCC just before the deadline. Your other comments can be summed up in a single sentence: You wanted the Morse Code test to go away, because you don't like Morse Code. AF6AY: "I've never asked, suggested, or made a big thing out of age requirements to the FCC since." Not the point, Len. You made a big thing out of it in Reply Comments to FCC and in other discussions: http://tinyurl.com/yxq3rr AF6AY: "I've written a lot on the various dockets about radio regulations at the FCC." Yes, you have, and it's been all basically the same stuff. I feel sorry for the folks at FCC who had to read all that verbiage. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST FCC exam in the first week of March, 1956. At age 23." That's nice, Len. I took my first FCC exam when I was 13. Got my Extra at age 16 and my Second Phone at 18. Never went beyond Second Phone because I went into electrical engineering and didn't need it. Got my BSEE at age 22. MSEE took a little longer. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST amateur radio exam at age 74, passed it on the first try, ALMOST on the 51st anniversary of my first FCC test. Just WHAT do you have against that?" Nothing, Len. I'm just pointing out that you're a newcomer to amateur radio, that's all. Why does that bother you so much? It seems to really bother you that I've had almost 40 years' more experience in amateur radio than you, though. AF6AY: "you've kept harping me over the years that I "should" have gotten a ham license "first." [just like YOU did] I 'should" have taken a code test. [just as you did]" I've never said you "should" have done those things, Len. You're either mistaken or lying about that. What I and others have pointed out is that you *could* have done those things, but refused or failed to do them. Yet you want to be revered as The Authority On How Amateur Radio Should Be. COULD, not SHOULD. Big difference there. AF6AY: "WHY 'should' I have done what YOU did?" Well, (and I'm not saying you SHOULD have done what I did, only that you COULD have done something similar), consider this: If you had gotten an amateur radio license when *you* were 13, you'd have had a head start on getting into electronics, electrical engineering, radio, etc. Maybe you'd have gotten a scholarship to a major four-year University, or advanced training in the military based on your knowledge learned as a ham. You'd probably have been able to get that First Phone at 18 instead of 23. Also, if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, your comments to FCC and other hams would have carried more weight and been more convincing because you'd be arguing as someone with personal involvement and experience, not as an outsider. And if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, by now you'd have had over 70 years of enjoying amateur radio, instead of less than 2 years. Most of all, I think that if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13 you'd be a lot happier and more pleasant person today. But that's just my opinion. AF6AY: "You've tried to argue that YOU know more about the US military than I do" Where and when, Len? Do you mean the time when I corrected some of your mistakes about Soviet aircraft? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/a8cdd2dca86c2951?dmode=source my Reply http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/e56247af30b0c9a7?dmode=source Or maybe your classic post "dissing" another US Military Radio Operator's service: http://tinyurl.com/27fbwe which later led to your admission that your account of an artillery barrage was based only on others' experience: http://tinyurl.com/2tpq2l AF6AY: "I just cannot get up the same 'patriotism' for US amateur radio." That's fine, Len. Heck, it's taken you a year and a half just to put up a simple HF vertical, even with the help of contractors. Nobody says your interest must match others'. AF6AY: "It is a HOBBY activity, a recreational pursuit for personal pleasure." For you. Others are more involved, such as those who helped provide communications during natural disasters and the Shuttle debris recovery. AF6AY: "All that is required is to follow lawful regulations. In the current regulations for US amateurs there is NO regulation that mandates OOK CW modes over any other mode." So what? AF6AY: "There is NO regulation in all of Title 47 C.F.R. that states anyone MUST have an amateur radio license first before having any other radio license." And there is NO regulation banning young people from Amateur Radio just because they are young. AF6AY: "Yet you've kept on harping about what I "should" have done." Where? Show me a SPECIFIC example - a direct quote where I said such a thing. I don't think you can. AF6AY: "I got my first amateur radio license at age 74, rather well into retirement. Went for the top class and got it first try." Why did you wait so long, Len? I got the Novice, Technician, Advanced and Extra licenses on my first try, too. The testing for those licenses was somewhat more involved back when I took them, though. And I passed all of them except the Extra before I ever set foot in high school. AF6AY: "That raised a lot of hackles of the entrenched, brainwashed-as-a-teener crowd who said I "should have" come up through the ranks [just like they did]." No, it didn't raise any hackles. It surprised a few folks, and brought you a round of congratulations, but that's all. And it really wasn't much of a surprise, seeing as how you'd told the world you were "going for Extra out of the box" more than 7 years before you actually did: http://tinyurl.com/c5qyv AF6AY: "I'm not going to apologize to anyone." Well, you never let facts get in the way of a good rant, either. AF6AY: "What I did was what ANYONE else could do, either test." It's been possible to go for the top class of US amateur license on the first go for more than 30 years. AF6AY: "HOW I use that amateur license is treated the same way for my commercial license: Follow regulations. I "owe" exactly NOTHING to any group or 'amateur community' nor self-styled 'ham patriots' (and 'radio cops') who demand I do what they say with my amateur license." Nobody has "demanded" that you do anything other than follow the rules and good amateur practice, Len. What some folks wonder is what you've actually done, that's all. You don't talk about what you really do in ham radio, so it's a good bet the answer is "not much". AF6AY: "You live to ARGUE against those who don't side with your opinions." Not me, Len. You're describing yourself. All anyone has to do is to look up your many postings under various screen identities, or your massive verbiage to FCC to see that. AF6AY: "At the same time you hide behind a lot of stock (but empty) phrases of 'civility' and 'good manners' while you 'save' selected message 'examples' for some kind of posterity (as if Google doesn't have any TeraByte servers)." Not true, Len. Unlike you, I don't have to call people insulting names to make a point. Instead, I use facts and sound reasoning. To back up my reasoning, I've simply provided links to some of your past messages, posted in public forums for all to see. That's not wrong, illegal, or "uncivil". Don't you want people to know what you've written in the past? AF6AY: "You only 'saved' them to ressurect at a much later time to 'prove' a point that YOU are the uncivil one." You're saying that it's "uncivil" to point out what another has written in the past. That's simply not true, Len. I post the links to back up my reasoning with facts and actual quotes. If your arguments were valid, you could do the same thing. But you don't post links to things you claim I have written. I suspect that's because you know your claims are false. AF6AY: "Your other questions are just rewritten goads of the past so that you can set up to ARGUE something." Not at all. I just want to know what you, a newcomer, define as "standards and practices of the 1950s". I think the real reason you duck such questions is that they would show that the things you do in amateur radio, such as VHF FM and maybe HF SSB, with manufactured amateur radio equipment, are all right out of those very same "standards and practices of the 1950s" that you denigrate. If you're really proud of what you do in Amateur Radio, Len, why are you so angry, defensive and secretive about it? Can't you tolerate different opinions without calling people names? That's enough for now. The ARRL CW Sweepstakes starts late this afternoon, and I'm going to be in it. A friend has loaned me a nice top-of-the-line solid-state transceiver to check out for him, and maybe I'll use it for Sweepstakes. The 'phone weekend is coming up, too! My first CW Sweepstakes was in 1968 and I've only missed one in all that time. Oh and the Phillies won the World Series. Big celebration in this town of winners! 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dudes, I have an awesome idea, let's take all the post's from the careful how you speak article and make a Ham Spirit Banner Article. Gotta go, I'm making popcorn!! Happy Halloween. PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dag-gummit, I think the Youth is right here on this Site/Hobby. Right before my very own eyes and I didn't even see it! Dag-Gummit! You all are as silly as chrome paint! This hobby has Teen Spirit written all over it!! I don't know how I missed it. Another thing, Super-op is a Japenese Phrase meaning some kind of Japenese meaning OK. Hello? Geez? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| N2EY | 2008-11-01 | |
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| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| AF6AY wrote: "The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS." N2EY replied: "Well, you should know, Len, being a newcomer to ham radio yourself." AF6AY: "trying to diss me as you have for years over on rec.radio.amateur.policy." I'm not trying to "diss" you, Len. I'm simply pointing out a fact: You're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I became a 'newcomer' to HF radio on the first week in February, 1953,.....55 1/2 years ago. There is NOTHING in or about amateur radio that is SO unique that 'all' who enter are 'always beginners.'" Nobody said anyhting like that, Len. What I wrote was the fact that you're a newcomer to amateur radio. AF6AY: "I've legally operated radios in seven other radio services before I got my amateur radio license." Sure - a cb, a cell phone, somebody else's marine radio, somebody else's aircraft radio, and some radios in the military as part of a team of personnel trained for the job. But you're still a newcomer to amateur radio. That's not a "diss", it's just a fact. N2EY: "It's odd, though, that you'd be yelling for newcomers when it was you who asked the FCC to create a minimum-age requirement of 14 years for all amateur radio licenses." AF6AY: "What you are referring to is my Comment on FCC Docket 98-143 that was accepted by them on 13 January 1999, two days before their stated end of all Comments." That was a Reply Comment, Len. AF6AY: "Anyone can access my Reply to Comments via the FCC ECFS." Here's a link: http://tinyurl.com/y6uhr3 AF6AY: "I never 'asked' the FCC specifically for that age limit." Yes, you did, Len. AF6AY: "It was a SUGGESTION based on the cute, cute story in the ARRL Letter showing two six-year-olds who passed (respectively) the Technician and Novice exams." It was a request that the rules be changed to ban anyone under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Why the licensing of six-year-olds bothered you, a non-amateur well past the age of 60 at the time, remains a mystery. This thread is about "bringing youth into amateur radio", and you seem to want to ban a considerable part of the youth of the USA from it. You even accused the ARRL VEs of fraud: http://tinyurl.com/2k5mb5 Say - it was an ARRL VE session where you earned your amateur license, wasn't it? AF6AY: "It is all explained in my Reply to Comments. A SUGGESTION to restore a lower age limit, to stop CHILDREN from being legally able to interfere worldwide on HF all by themselves." Not just HF. Your request was to ban all persons under the age of 14 years from US amateur radio. Yet you could not cite one case - not one single case! - of interference or other problems caused by the youth of a US amateur radio operator. Not one case. Yet you would ban all under 14 years of age, if you had your way, just because they are children, regardless of the tests they passed. In fact, if one bothers to look at the FCC Enforcement actions, the worst offenders in the realm of interference are people of *your* age group in 1998, Len. One of them, who lived not far from you, was sentenced to seven years in prison for his antics, IIRC. IOW, if age is the issue, it's not the young hams who are the enforcement problem. AF6AY: "Age fourteen was an arbitrary age." Based on nothing but your own personal biases against young people: http://tinyurl.com/2akck9 AF6AY: "YOU perceived a (gasp!) 'personal insult' and you've been trying, trying, trying to gain retribution for that terrible, terrible PERCEIVED personal insult ever since." Nope, not me, Len. I'm just pointing out some facts. AF6AY: "Two children of age six BEAT you by seven years." So what? Nothing new to me; there were younger hams than I back in 1967. Those two children beat *you* to an amateur radio license by 68 years, Len. I beat you by 61 years. Seems to me you're the one with the "perceived personal insult" problem. AF6AY: "you couldn't comment on ANYTHING ELSE I wrote in 13 pages of Reply to Comments on Docket 98-143." I couldn't Reply Comment to your Reply Comment because you mailed them to FCC just before the deadline. Your other comments can be summed up in a single sentence: You wanted the Morse Code test to go away, because you don't like Morse Code. AF6AY: "I've never asked, suggested, or made a big thing out of age requirements to the FCC since." Not the point, Len. You made a big thing out of it in Reply Comments to FCC and in other discussions: http://tinyurl.com/yxq3rr AF6AY: "I've written a lot on the various dockets about radio regulations at the FCC." Yes, you have, and it's been all basically the same stuff. I feel sorry for the folks at FCC who had to read all that verbiage. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST FCC exam in the first week of March, 1956. At age 23." That's nice, Len. I took my first FCC exam when I was 13. Got my Extra at age 16 and my Second Phone at 18. Never went beyond Second Phone because I went into electrical engineering and didn't need it. Got my BSEE at age 22. MSEE took a little longer. AF6AY: "I took my FIRST amateur radio exam at age 74, passed it on the first try, ALMOST on the 51st anniversary of my first FCC test. Just WHAT do you have against that?" Nothing, Len. I'm just pointing out that you're a newcomer to amateur radio, that's all. Why does that bother you so much? It seems to really bother you that I've had almost 40 years' more experience in amateur radio than you, though. AF6AY: "you've kept harping me over the years that I "should" have gotten a ham license "first." [just like YOU did] I 'should" have taken a code test. [just as you did]" I've never said you "should" have done those things, Len. You're either mistaken or lying about that. What I and others have pointed out is that you *could* have done those things, but refused or failed to do them. Yet you want to be revered as The Authority On How Amateur Radio Should Be. COULD, not SHOULD. Big difference there. AF6AY: "WHY 'should' I have done what YOU did?" Well, (and I'm not saying you SHOULD have done what I did, only that you COULD have done something similar), consider this: If you had gotten an amateur radio license when *you* were 13, you'd have had a head start on getting into electronics, electrical engineering, radio, etc. Maybe you'd have gotten a scholarship to a major four-year University, or advanced training in the military based on your knowledge learned as a ham. You'd probably have been able to get that First Phone at 18 instead of 23. Also, if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, your comments to FCC and other hams would have carried more weight and been more convincing because you'd be arguing as someone with personal involvement and experience, not as an outsider. And if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13, by now you'd have had over 70 years of enjoying amateur radio, instead of less than 2 years. Most of all, I think that if you had gotten an amateur radio license when you were 13 you'd be a lot happier and more pleasant person today. But that's just my opinion. AF6AY: "You've tried to argue that YOU know more about the US military than I do" Where and when, Len? Do you mean the time when I corrected some of your mistakes about Soviet aircraft? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/a8cdd2dca86c2951?dmode=source my Reply http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/e56247af30b0c9a7?dmode=source Or maybe your classic post "dissing" another US Military Radio Operator's service: http://tinyurl.com/27fbwe which later led to your admission that your account of an artillery barrage was based only on others' experience: http://tinyurl.com/2tpq2l AF6AY: "I just cannot get up the same 'patriotism' for US amateur radio." That's fine, Len. Heck, it's taken you a year and a half just to put up a simple HF vertical, even with the help of contractors. Nobody says your interest must match others'. AF6AY: "It is a HOBBY activity, a recreational pursuit for personal pleasure." For you. Others are more involved, such as those who helped provide communications during natural disasters and the Shuttle debris recovery. AF6AY: "All that is required is to follow lawful regulations. In the current regulations for US amateurs there is NO regulation that mandates OOK CW modes over any other mode." So what? AF6AY: "There is NO regulation in all of Title 47 C.F.R. that states anyone MUST have an amateur radio license first before having any other radio license." And there is NO regulation banning young people from Amateur Radio just because they are young. AF6AY: "Yet you've kept on harping about what I "should" have done." Where? Show me a SPECIFIC example - a direct quote where I said such a thing. I don't think you can. AF6AY: "I got my first amateur radio license at age 74, rather well into retirement. Went for the top class and got it first try." Why did you wait so long, Len? I got the Novice, Technician, Advanced and Extra licenses on my first try, too. The testing for those licenses was somewhat more involved back when I took them, though. And I passed all of them except the Extra before I ever set foot in high school. AF6AY: "That raised a lot of hackles of the entrenched, brainwashed-as-a-teener crowd who said I "should have" come up through the ranks [just like they did]." No, it didn't raise any hackles. It surprised a few folks, and brought you a round of congratulations, but that's all. And it really wasn't much of a surprise, seeing as how you'd told the world you were "going for Extra out of the box" more than 7 years before you actually did: http://tinyurl.com/c5qyv AF6AY: "I'm not going to apologize to anyone." Well, you never let facts get in the way of a good rant, either. AF6AY: "What I did was what ANYONE else could do, either test." It's been possible to go for the top class of US amateur license on the first go for more than 30 years. AF6AY: "HOW I use that amateur license is treated the same way for my commercial license: Follow regulations. I "owe" exactly NOTHING to any group or 'amateur community' nor self-styled 'ham patriots' (and 'radio cops') who demand I do what they say with my amateur license." Nobody has "demanded" that you do anything other than follow the rules and good amateur practice, Len. What some folks wonder is what you've actually done, that's all. You don't talk about what you really do in ham radio, so it's a good bet the answer is "not much". AF6AY: "You live to ARGUE against those who don't side with your opinions." Not me, Len. You're describing yourself. All anyone has to do is to look up your many postings under various screen identities, or your massive verbiage to FCC to see that. AF6AY: "At the same time you hide behind a lot of stock (but empty) phrases of 'civility' and 'good manners' while you 'save' selected message 'examples' for some kind of posterity (as if Google doesn't have any TeraByte servers)." Not true, Len. Unlike you, I don't have to call people insulting names to make a point. Instead, I use facts and sound reasoning. To back up my reasoning, I've simply provided links to some of your past messages, posted in public forums for all to see. That's not wrong, illegal, or "uncivil". Don't you want people to know what you've written in the past? AF6AY: "You only 'saved' them to ressurect at a much later time to 'prove' a point that YOU are the uncivil one." You're saying that it's "uncivil" to point out what another has written in the past. That's simply not true, Len. I post the links to back up my reasoning with facts and actual quotes. If your arguments were valid, you could do the same thing. But you don't post links to things you claim I have written. I suspect that's because you know your claims are false. AF6AY: "Your other questions are just rewritten goads of the past so that you can set up to ARGUE something." Not at all. I just want to know what you, a newcomer, define as "standards and practices of the 1950s". I think the real reason you duck such questions is that they would show that the things you do in amateur radio, such as VHF FM and maybe HF SSB, with manufactured amateur radio equipment, are all right out of those very same "standards and practices of the 1950s" that you denigrate. If you're really proud of what you do in Amateur Radio, Len, why are you so angry, defensive and secretive about it? Can't you tolerate different opinions without calling people names? That's enough for now. The ARRL CW Sweepstakes starts late this afternoon, and I'm going to be in it. A friend has loaned me a nice top-of-the-line solid-state transceiver to check out for him, and maybe I'll use it for Sweepstakes. The 'phone weekend is coming up, too! My first CW Sweepstakes was in 1968 and I've only missed one in all that time. Oh and the Phillies won the World Series. Big celebration in this town of winners! 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dudes, I have an awesome idea, let's take all the post's from the careful how you speak article and make a Ham Spirit Banner Article. Gotta go, I'm making popcorn!! Happy Halloween. PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dag-gummit, I think the Youth is right here on this Site/Hobby. Right before my very own eyes and I didn't even see it! Dag-Gummit! You all are as silly as chrome paint! This hobby has Teen Spirit written all over it!! I don't know how I missed it. Another thing, Super-op is a Japenese Phrase meaning some kind of Japenese meaning OK. Hello? Geez? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| W4LGH | 2008-11-01 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Resistance is futile. | ||
| The Hobby is NOT dying, it is alive and well and doing great. The only problem with the hobby is the ARRL, that "Annoying Rotten Radio League" that is Ham's worst enemy. One day Hams might wake up and realize this. If they would all get together and run that NAZI David Summer out of the league, there might be some hope to rebuild all the damage he has done, and maybe turn it around in time. One should realize that the elected officers of that rotten league, are only figure heads and have no authority at all. The Rotten league is totally run by David Summer, his iron fist, and his hand picked exec. board. All of which are HI PAID employees of it, and only in it for the money...think I am kidding, take their money away and watch them run as fast as they can away from it! The "Annoying Rotten radio League" has been slowing killing Ham radio, for the sake of MONEY and GREED!! 73 de W4LGH Alan http://www.w4lgh.com Reply to a comment by : K0IZ on 2008-11-01 Duncan (new ARRL Youth Editor) is a great choice for this position. He is a member amd VP of our radio club (Johnson County (KS) Amateur Radio Club, WØERH. Since there are unfortunately quite a few hams who think the hobby is dying, it might be of interest to know what members (including Duncan) of our club have been doing. During the past two years, well over 300! have taken club license classes, and have become hams (Technicians). Now classes have started for the next phase, General. At this year's field day, our GOTA station coordinator was 17 yr old Barry, and we have some great pictures of Lucy (age 6) and Barry making contacts. By the Lucy is a ham, one of our 300 new ones. So is the hobby dying? Not in our club! Reply to a comment by : KW4JX on 2008-11-01 You could make the High School Physics experimental and you should run Physics right through the school instead of cramming it into the last year. Young kids love Physics in the European schools, even in Elementary Schools! You could pay Physics teachers more than surplus teachers in other subjects. You should introduce Electronics as a school subject. You should definitely abolish incentive licensing. Other than for electrical safety, there is no place for assessment and tests in a hobby. All hams should be equal. Buffalo Gil W2/G3LBS Reply to a comment by : KC7YCL on 2008-10-31 You will be assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile. Your mothers will beg you to stop eating so many vegetables and to waste some time on computer games for a change. Maybe you will play your games on the internet via a metropolitan wide 802.11 wireless network using commercial off the shelf wi-fi gear modified for use under part 97 in the ham band with ham sized antennas and ham sized power outputs. And maybe a ham sandwich too. Ham sandwiches will also be assimilated. (I really hate star trek by the way, it's about as dorky as this message. Slap some gooey makeup on my forehead and call me a Klingon.) | ||
| K0IZ | 2008-11-01 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Resistance is futile. | ||
| Duncan (new ARRL Youth Editor) is a great choice for this position. He is a member amd VP of our radio club (Johnson County (KS) Amateur Radio Club, WØERH. Since there are unfortunately quite a few hams who think the hobby is dying, it might be of interest to know what members (including Duncan) of our club have been doing. During the past two years, well over 300! have taken club license classes, and have become hams (Technicians). Now classes have started for the next phase, General. At this year's field day, our GOTA station coordinator was 17 yr old Barry, and we have some great pictures of Lucy (age 6) and Barry making contacts. By the Lucy is a ham, one of our 300 new ones. So is the hobby dying? Not in our club! Reply to a comment by : KW4JX on 2008-11-01 You could make the High School Physics experimental and you should run Physics right through the school instead of cramming it into the last year. Young kids love Physics in the European schools, even in Elementary Schools! You could pay Physics teachers more than surplus teachers in other subjects. You should introduce Electronics as a school subject. You should definitely abolish incentive licensing. Other than for electrical safety, there is no place for assessment and tests in a hobby. All hams should be equal. Buffalo Gil W2/G3LBS Reply to a comment by : KC7YCL on 2008-10-31 You will be assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile. Your mothers will beg you to stop eating so many vegetables and to waste some time on computer games for a change. Maybe you will play your games on the internet via a metropolitan wide 802.11 wireless network using commercial off the shelf wi-fi gear modified for use under part 97 in the ham band with ham sized antennas and ham sized power outputs. And maybe a ham sandwich too. Ham sandwiches will also be assimilated. (I really hate star trek by the way, it's about as dorky as this message. Slap some gooey makeup on my forehead and call me a Klingon.) | ||
| KW4JX | 2008-11-01 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Resistance is futile. | ||
| You could make the High School Physics experimental and you should run Physics right through the school instead of cramming it into the last year. Young kids love Physics in the European schools, even in Elementary Schools! You could pay Physics teachers more than surplus teachers in other subjects. You should introduce Electronics as a school subject. You should definitely abolish incentive licensing. Other than for electrical safety, there is no place for assessment and tests in a hobby. All hams should be equal. Buffalo Gil W2/G3LBS Reply to a comment by : KC7YCL on 2008-10-31 You will be assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile. Your mothers will beg you to stop eating so many vegetables and to waste some time on computer games for a change. Maybe you will play your games on the internet via a metropolitan wide 802.11 wireless network using commercial off the shelf wi-fi gear modified for use under part 97 in the ham band with ham sized antennas and ham sized power outputs. And maybe a ham sandwich too. Ham sandwiches will also be assimilated. (I really hate star trek by the way, it's about as dorky as this message. Slap some gooey makeup on my forehead and call me a Klingon.) | ||
| KW4JX | 2008-11-01 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Resistance is futile. | ||
| You could make the High School Physics experimental and you should run Physics right through the school instead of cramming it into the last year. Young kids love Physics in the European schools, even in Elementary Schools! You could pay Physics teachers more than surplus teachers in other subjects. You should introduce Electronics as a school subject. You should definitely abolish incentive licensing. Other than for electrical safety, there is no place for assessment and tests in a hobby. All hams should be equal. Buffalo Gil W2/G3LBS Reply to a comment by : KC7YCL on 2008-10-31 You will be assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile. Your mothers will beg you to stop eating so many vegetables and to waste some time on computer games for a change. Maybe you will play your games on the internet via a metropolitan wide 802.11 wireless network using commercial off the shelf wi-fi gear modified for use under part 97 in the ham band with ham sized antennas and ham sized power outputs. And maybe a ham sandwich too. Ham sandwiches will also be assimilated. (I really hate star trek by the way, it's about as dorky as this message. Slap some gooey makeup on my forehead and call me a Klingon.) | ||
| KC7YCL | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| Resistance is futile. | ||
| You will be assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile. Your mothers will beg you to stop eating so many vegetables and to waste some time on computer games for a change. Maybe you will play your games on the internet via a metropolitan wide 802.11 wireless network using commercial off the shelf wi-fi gear modified for use under part 97 in the ham band with ham sized antennas and ham sized power outputs. And maybe a ham sandwich too. Ham sandwiches will also be assimilated. (I really hate star trek by the way, it's about as dorky as this message. Slap some gooey makeup on my forehead and call me a Klingon.) | ||
| PLANKEYE | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Dudes, I have an awesome idea, let's take all the post's from the careful how you speak article and make a Ham Spirit Banner Article. Gotta go, I'm making popcorn!! Happy Halloween. PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-31 Dag-gummit, I think the Youth is right here on this Site/Hobby. Right before my very own eyes and I didn't even see it! Dag-Gummit! You all are as silly as chrome paint! This hobby has Teen Spirit written all over it!! I don't know how I missed it. Another thing, Super-op is a Japenese Phrase meaning some kind of Japenese meaning OK. Hello? Geez? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| K6LHA | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio Cemetary | ||
| Posted By N2EY on Halloween (while waiting in the Pumpkin Patch?): AF6AY wrote: "The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS." "Well, you should know, Len, being a newcomer to ham radio yourself." Jimmie, you are becoming a zombie (Halloween being appropriate) for this NON-discussion in trying to diss me as you have for years over on rec.radio.amateur.policy. You should quit trying because you are not trying, just tiring and trite, offering nothing in solutions other than What Is Written by the ARRL long ago. I became a 'newcomer' to HF radio on the first week in February, 1953, as a member of the United States Army and assigned to a military transmitting station serving the Far East Command Headquarters in Tokyo. That was 55 1/2 years ago. There is NOTHING in or about amateur radio that is SO unique that 'all' who enter are 'always beginners.' If you REALLY think that, then you have NO experience in any other radio service. I've legally operated radios in seven other radio services before I got my amateur radio license. ........... N2EY (Boy Wonder): "It's odd, though, that you'd be yelling for newcomers when it was you who asked the FCC to create a minimum-age requirement of 14 years for all amateur radio licenses." Now, now, putting political spin on something is for politicians, not amateurs. We will have quite enough of that for the next half week until Tuesday. What you are (continually through the years) referring to is my Comment on FCC Docket 98-143 that was accepted by them on 13 January 1999, two days before their stated end of all Comments. Anyone can access my Reply to Comments via the FCC ECFS. That Reply to Comments acceptance was OVER 9 1/2 years ago and Docket 98-143 is DEAD, fini, done. I never 'asked' the FCC specifically for that age limit. It was a SUGGESTION based on the cute, cute story in the ARRL Letter showing two six-year-olds who passed (respectively) the Technician and Novice exams. It is all explained in my Reply to Comments. A SUGGESTION to restore a lower age limit, to stop CHILDREN from being legally able to interfere worldwide on HF all by themselves. Age fourteen was an arbitrary age. What I didn't know back in December of 1998 when I wrote that Reply to Comments, was that YOU got your very first license at age 13. YOU perceived a (gasp!) 'personal insult' and you've been trying, trying, trying to gain retribution for that terrible, terrible PERCEIVED personal insult ever since. Poor baby. Two children of age six BEAT you by seven years. Tsk, tsk. You have, ever since, been making a draconian THING out of the (perceived) terrible insult and keep trying to stir your own mental pot and salve your 'wounds' with in-fighting about opinions on AGE...in reference to YOURSELF. Worse yet, you couldn't comment on ANYTHING ELSE I wrote in 13 pages of Reply to Comments on Docket 98-143. Only what was on the last page because YOU felt 'hurt.' Awwww... I've never asked, suggested, or made a big thing out of age requirements to the FCC since. I've written a lot on the various dockets about radio regulations at the FCC. ALL of those are available for access to anyone. Just use the ECFS Search feature and you will find all of them with just my legal name as the search key. But, those dockets have ALREADY been argued, replied to, agreed with, all opinions expressed and are FINISHED. Trying to drag up the old ones does NO good. They will NOT change if you argue against them NOW. I took my FIRST FCC exam in the first week of March, 1956. At age 23. Went for FIRST Class Radiotelephone, passed it on the first try. Kept it renewed even as it was changed to "no class" General Radiotelephone and, eventually, to NO renewals required. Spent a whole half century working IN electronics. Then I took my FIRST amateur radio exam at age 74, passed it on the first try, ALMOST on the 51st anniversary of my first FCC test. Just WHAT do you have against that? Oh, yes, you've kept harping me over the years that I "should" have gotten a ham license "first." [just like YOU did] I 'should" have taken a code test. [just as you did] WHY 'should' I have done what YOU did? Boy Wonder, you are VERY patriotic about amateur radio, especially morse code. So much so that most of your phrasing is right from the good book of Ham Radio As It Should Be Done, written by that group in a suburb of Hartford. To you time is frozen in the OLD ways, of radiotelegraphy being the epitome of all radio communications. [it isn't but you couldn't see anything else over the last decade] I'm a patriot of the United States of America. So much so that, at a time of past war in Asia I was a volunteer for Army service. THAT volunteerism is identified by the prefix on my old Army Serial Number, RA16408336. Back then everyone who went into military service, volunteer or draftee, took a vow to defend the Constitution of the USA. They bet their LIFE on it. No one could bet more. The Cold War was hot then. In the past over on RRAP you've tried to make fun of that, to belittle it as much as you could. Yet YOU NEVER SERVED the USA in ANY way, either in the military nor as a civilian. You've tried to argue that YOU know more about the US military than I do, yet you never served one day in any military. That does not compute. It raises no flags, erects no bunting for you. I just cannot get up the same 'patriotism' for US amateur radio. It is a HOBBY activity, a recreational pursuit for personal pleasure. It is purely voluntary. All that is required is to follow lawful regulations. In the current regulations for US amateurs there is NO regulation that mandates OOK CW modes over any other mode. There is NO regulation in all of Title 47 C.F.R. that states anyone MUST have an amateur radio license first before having any other radio license. Yet you've kept on harping about what I "should" have done. Would you take a vow to defend the ARRL constitution with your LIFE if needs be? I got my first amateur radio license at age 74, rather well into retirement. Went for the top class and got it first try. That raised a lot of hackles of the entrenched, brainwashed-as-a-teener crowd who said I "should have" come up through the ranks [just like they did]. I'm not going to apologize to anyone. What I did was what ANYONE else could do, either test. What I did was quite legal. I owe NO allegiance to any organization in a suburb of Hartford. I'm still a voting member there, but it won't be for too much longer. HOW I use that amateur license is treated the same way for my commercial license: Follow regulations. I "owe" exactly NOTHING to any group or 'amateur community' nor self-styled 'ham patriots' (and 'radio cops') who demand I do what they say with my amateur license. If that still infuriates you (as it has in the past) too bad, Boy Wonder, you just can't dictate the how and why of what I care to do. Based on a decade of comments from you - not really a numerically-accurate 10 years, it only seems an eternity - I'm pretty sure what you will try to argue next. Doesn't matter. Maybe I will reply, maybe I won't and just ignore it. Your so-called 'discussion' messages are generally counterproductive. You live to ARGUE against those who don't side with your opinions. At the same time you hide behind a lot of stock (but empty) phrases of 'civility' and 'good manners' while you 'save' selected message 'examples' for some kind of posterity (as if Google doesn't have any TeraByte servers). You only 'saved' them to ressurect at a much later time to 'prove' a point that YOU are the uncivil one. ............ Your other questions are just rewritten goads of the past so that you can set up to ARGUE something. If I want goads of the past, I'll go re-read Dickens. Len, AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-10-31 AF6AY wrote: "The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS." Well, you should know, Len, being a newcomer to ham radio yourself. It's odd, though, that you'd be yelling for newcomers when it was you who asked the FCC to create a minimum-age requirement of 14 years for all amateur radio licenses. AF6AY: "Idealism in keeping the standards and practices of the 1950s forever isn't going to cut it nor make those idealists more noble than the rest of the population." What "standards and practices of the 1950s" do you mean, Len? The use of SSB? FM? HF? Rigs that are tunable rather than channelized? What are *you* doing in amateur radio that's any different? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-10-30 W3OZ posted on October 30, 2008: "I got into ham radio as a kid. That was then, now is now. There were no computers and little TV." I got into professional HF radio at age 21, courtesy of the US Army. That was a very long ago 'then' with NO satellites of any kind lofted and semi-conductors relegated to just germanium and silicon diodes and stinky selenium rectifier stacks. W3QZ: "Amateur radio WAS the latest and greatest of technology then." In all fairness, I would have to say a definite NO based on what was going on in ALL radio. Moving to southern California aerospace industry in 1956 I became acquainted with more hams in 6-land than I had in my native 9-land. 'Old-timer' hams (relatively speaking) of then were actively rationalizing their hobby by saying "we are advancing the state of the art in radio." Nonsense to me, having worked IN 24/7 HF comms for three years...but I had to be polite to my elders (of then) and had to stop explaining what I'd personally experienced. Most of those hams had no comparable experience other than their own single-operator amateur station, never venturing beyond HF, using technology based on 1930s vacuum tube architecture. I was then working IN aerospace from VHF and up in frequency using technology (most of it still using vacuum tubes) that would have left the average ham baffled in wonderment. ............... W3QZ: "Why the heck are we so concerned with getting young people in the hobby, we have a big pool of folks that are older who we should be marketing into our hobby." Big, big disagreement there. ARRL is finally, after all these many years of general technological stratification (and perhaps mummification), is beginning to see the light in terms of license numbers and How It Looks To Government. They HAVE been, continually, "marketing that older generation." This morning of the 30th of October 2008 the ARRL license stats page shows the following: 661,182 total single-operator licenses still in their 10-year license term. Of those, 309,407 are Technician class or 46.8 percent of the total. The no-code-test Technician class has existed for only 17 years yet it has become, by far, the LARGEST class in US amateur radio. Without any demographic proof whatsoever, it would still be safe to say that the average age of Technician class licensees is UNDER 40. Is it still logical to assume that all of those younger people are 'excited' over continual repetition of operating standards and practices of the 1930s or even 1950s? I don't think so. Think about numbers alone. The Federal government does that and the FCC regulates amateur radio, not a suburb of Hartford, Connecticutt. Had there been NO no-code-test Technician class, the number of amateur radio licensees would be around HALF of what they are today. That's just from normal human attrition of the boomer generation. Before the fateful date of 23 February 2007 the licensee numbers had been SHRINKING at a rate of about 3K per year after the peak on July 2, 2003...even as the Technician class had been actively increasing in numbers all that while. [see also www.hamdata.com for newcomers v. expirations and total licenses granted (including those in grace periods)] In the last two years the NEWCOMERS are just barely keeping the US amateur radio license numbers up by very slightly overcoming the expirations. The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS. Without those newcomers, the US ham numbers will keep on shrinking until the 'amateur community' becomes too small to affect FCC decisions in regards to favoring amateur regulations. Legislators will see that, too. The ARRL needs income to keep itself together. That's why they wisely organized that big PUBLISHING HOUSE they have. It MUST sell those publishing products to stay alive. Membership fees only serve to keep the staff of QST working, pay for printing and mailing costs. Membership numbers are given out to prospective ad space buyers and income from such ad space sales can be considerable. Outside of showing some pictures of (member) offspring or ham scholarship winners, the pages of QST have been largely devoid of information for the Technician class. Even if that class is approaching HALF of all active licensees, the ARRL hasn't really seemed to care about them. That's strange to me. It doesn't make good marketing sense to ignore nearly half of a potential income group. ARRL has a virtual monopoly on publications specifically for the radio amateur. Its only real competition now is CQ and some (few) columns in Popular Communications. The Internet is the biggest competitor for amateur radio information dissemination, in forums such as this and over on QRZ.com and dozens of others. But, all of these websites offer the usual bombardment of advertising that all of us see for everything else in life. It is all well and good to make happy for a niche group of a niche group of radio hobbyists. But, if those niches have fewer and fewer numbers, Legislators and Commissioners just aren't going to listen to their requests. Idealism in keeping the standards and practices of the 1950s forever isn't going to cut it nor make those idealists more noble than the rest of the population. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : W3OZ on 2008-10-30 I got into ham radio as a kid. That was then, now is now. There were no computers and little TV. Amateur radio WAS the latest and greatest of technology then. I don’t want any of my grandkids sitting on their butts doing radio. I want them active in sports, and physical activities. They have enough sedimentary activities they must do like study so they can compete with others in school. When they are old and broken down like me they can have plenty of time for ham radio. Why the heck are we so concerned with getting young people in the hobby, we have a big pool of folks that are older who we should be marketing into our hobby. | ||
| K6CRC | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| I think many have identified the right path. Make it visible, and those who find it interesting will come. ARRL has programs, and they can help kids who want to enter the hobby. My personal opinion is that Ham Radio is a hobby of a specific set of generations. The technical challenge of a different age, before surface-mount and firmware downloads. That doesn't mean it isn't a good hobby, it is now in two parts, hard core techie, and the communications skills via a purchased radio. The communications part is not too interesting to most kids, in the day of free Skype to anywhere in the world- video and high quality sound. The biggest recruiting issue in my mind is the public face of the hobby. I do not think most hams have realize that when they represent the hobby in public, their dress and manner are what people see, and the view they take away. Teenagers are especially alert. One aborted trip to a local Ham event was all my two teens would take. Not fair, but the way it is sometimes. I enjoy the hobby, and hope that it continue after I am gone. Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| PLANKEYE | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Dag-gummit, I think the Youth is right here on this Site/Hobby. Right before my very own eyes and I didn't even see it! Dag-Gummit! You all are as silly as chrome paint! This hobby has Teen Spirit written all over it!! I don't know how I missed it. Another thing, Super-op is a Japenese Phrase meaning some kind of Japenese meaning OK. Hello? Geez? PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| W7ETA | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Corrections personally for Don Keith! | ||
| Some kids are still amazed by a radio they can build around a Quaker Oatmeal box that receives radio signals, even the boring ones on AM, without a battery. One might have to explain that its like MAGIC, cause radio signals are like TV signals, flying all around us, through houses and even trough people. If they follow the schematic, cut the wire strip the ends, place the components in the right places, and use wire for an antenna, the wire will grab the invisible signals out of the air, and without a battery, the child hears the magic. If one adds the correct symbols to the schematic, the child that makes the crystal radio will at least know a few electronic symbols, know how to use wire strippers, learn how, tighten and loosen a nut on a bolt, get to experience how attaching wire to a radio brings in radio signals, gets to experience how a good earthen ground helps radio signals and more. They may never become interested in ham radio. But, they learned more about RF than most other kids and have been exposed to science and experimenting. It also is a good way to test one's fundamental grasp of simple electronics. Best from warm Tucson--90F its almost antenna season! Bob Reply to a comment by : W4LGH on 2008-10-31 N4KC Don said..."W4LGH says, "Ham radio has always been and will always be an older persons hobby.... Alan, I'm thankful Walt, W4OXU, did not believe that. He took the time to answer a 13-year-old kid's dumb questions and spent many nights (after a long workday and a two-hour-each-way commute) teaching a bunch of us teenagers about resistors, capacitors, tubes and dits and dahs." Well Don, you always have the answers, and thats fine. I have tried to get kids interested in Ham radio for many years, only to see that interest dry up very quickly. I was first licensed @ age 10. But in my day, Ham radio was the HI-TECH hobby! No computers, no video games, no Malls, no cell phones, and many didn't have a landline phone. I also grew up with a dad who was in electronics, so it was an easy progression for me to move into. My cousin and myself WERE the exception to the rule then, when it was the HI-TECH hobby, so to all the youngsters in the hobby today, my hat is off, and they are deffinately the exception to the rule. So once again, since everyone takes everything I say so litteral, Over my 44+ years in the hobby, I have brought many into it, including my wife, which was probably the hardest sale of all. Most of the youngsters who are licensed today, will sway away from the hobby as their hormones intense. Some may come back, but most don't for many a year afterwards. They start families, raise families, both work 50-60 hours a week to make ends meet. At some point in their adult life, they may remember that 1 special contact they made as a kid and say, I think I'd like to do that again. However most don't!! So your comment to my comment really has no basis, and I too am glad that someone took an interest in you and helped you along, but you too, are the exception to the rule. My own cousin, who was licensed at the same time I was let his license expire many many years ago, and has NEVER come back into the hobby, and he has also worked in electronics his entire life. So just for you sir, I will rephrase what I said, and try to be more accurate... Ham radio is 98% an older persons hobby, always has been and more than likely will be. However, there is the 2% chance that there will an exception or 2 to the rule. Geez, peoples skin needs to thicken up some, and learn to read between the lines. Our govt is killing us all with their "Political Correctness BS". 73 de W4LGH - Alan http://www.w4lgh.com PS..I always welcome anyone who wants to come into the hobby, young or old, and will do what I can to help them get a start. And so you don't think I am a complete grumpy old ham radio operator, I have donated equipment to others to help get them on the air, as well as gone out and bought several of the younger generation a used radio to help them. Only to see them drop out of it a year later. (really makes you feel good after spending all that time and several hundred dollars to see it go to waste.) Reply to a comment by : N4KC on 2008-10-31 W4LGH says, "Ham radio has always been and will always be an older persons hobby." Alan, I'm thankful Walt, W4OXU, did not believe that. He took the time to answer a 13-year-old kid's dumb questions and spent many nights (after a long workday and a two-hour-each-way commute) teaching a bunch of us teenagers about resistors, capacitors, tubes and dits and dahs. Had he adopted your attitude, and I had waited until I was 40, I would have missed out on a quarter of a century of this wonderful hobby. And guys, please don't assume everybody under 30 is hypnotized by video games or perfectly content to communicate with cell phones. I suspect there is just as big a percentage of young people out there who would be captivated by our hobby as there was in 1963. Let's make them aware and see who bites. Then let's be nurturing and welcoming and reel them in, along with the older guys. They will be the "great QSOs," the "super ops," the W4RNLs, N0AXs, W8JIs, K0BGs, AC6Vs, W4LGHs...and W4OXUs of tomorrow. Don N4KC www.n4kc.com www.donkeith.com www.n4kc.blogspot.com (A blog dedicated to rapid technological change and its effect on media, society and amateur radio) Reply to a comment by : AI2IA on 2008-10-31 Nothing regarding the FCC allocations in the radio spectrum are so stable that they cannot change due to major shifts in use or in needs. However, one of the strong points for the continued presence of amateur radio is as a resource for emergency communications. All anyone has to do is to glance at 97.1(a) "...particularly with respect to providing emergency communications." There it is right at the beginning of Part 97! This shows its importance to the FCC, to the Government. Our continued recruitment and support of this aspect of amateur radio will help us maintain all the other parts of it that we enjoy such as operating as a hobby or contesting. If every licensed ham who can joins a club, supports recruitment, participates in emcomm, or becomes a VE and helps with testing all with the idea of preserving and enhancing emergency communications first and everthing else next, we will be secure for a long time to come, at least that is how I see it. | ||
| W4LGH | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| Corrections personally for Don Keith! | ||
| N4KC Don said..."W4LGH says, "Ham radio has always been and will always be an older persons hobby.... Alan, I'm thankful Walt, W4OXU, did not believe that. He took the time to answer a 13-year-old kid's dumb questions and spent many nights (after a long workday and a two-hour-each-way commute) teaching a bunch of us teenagers about resistors, capacitors, tubes and dits and dahs." Well Don, you always have the answers, and thats fine. I have tried to get kids interested in Ham radio for many years, only to see that interest dry up very quickly. I was first licensed @ age 10. But in my day, Ham radio was the HI-TECH hobby! No computers, no video games, no Malls, no cell phones, and many didn't have a landline phone. I also grew up with a dad who was in electronics, so it was an easy progression for me to move into. My cousin and myself WERE the exception to the rule then, when it was the HI-TECH hobby, so to all the youngsters in the hobby today, my hat is off, and they are deffinately the exception to the rule. So once again, since everyone takes everything I say so litteral, Over my 44+ years in the hobby, I have brought many into it, including my wife, which was probably the hardest sale of all. Most of the youngsters who are licensed today, will sway away from the hobby as their hormones intense. Some may come back, but most don't for many a year afterwards. They start families, raise families, both work 50-60 hours a week to make ends meet. At some point in their adult life, they may remember that 1 special contact they made as a kid and say, I think I'd like to do that again. However most don't!! So your comment to my comment really has no basis, and I too am glad that someone took an interest in you and helped you along, but you too, are the exception to the rule. My own cousin, who was licensed at the same time I was let his license expire many many years ago, and has NEVER come back into the hobby, and he has also worked in electronics his entire life. So just for you sir, I will rephrase what I said, and try to be more accurate... Ham radio is 98% an older persons hobby, always has been and more than likely will be. However, there is the 2% chance that there will an exception or 2 to the rule. Geez, peoples skin needs to thicken up some, and learn to read between the lines. Our govt is killing us all with their "Political Correctness BS". 73 de W4LGH - Alan http://www.w4lgh.com PS..I always welcome anyone who wants to come into the hobby, young or old, and will do what I can to help them get a start. And so you don't think I am a complete grumpy old ham radio operator, I have donated equipment to others to help get them on the air, as well as gone out and bought several of the younger generation a used radio to help them. Only to see them drop out of it a year later. (really makes you feel good after spending all that time and several hundred dollars to see it go to waste.) Reply to a comment by : N4KC on 2008-10-31 W4LGH says, "Ham radio has always been and will always be an older persons hobby." Alan, I'm thankful Walt, W4OXU, did not believe that. He took the time to answer a 13-year-old kid's dumb questions and spent many nights (after a long workday and a two-hour-each-way commute) teaching a bunch of us teenagers about resistors, capacitors, tubes and dits and dahs. Had he adopted your attitude, and I had waited until I was 40, I would have missed out on a quarter of a century of this wonderful hobby. And guys, please don't assume everybody under 30 is hypnotized by video games or perfectly content to communicate with cell phones. I suspect there is just as big a percentage of young people out there who would be captivated by our hobby as there was in 1963. Let's make them aware and see who bites. Then let's be nurturing and welcoming and reel them in, along with the older guys. They will be the "great QSOs," the "super ops," the W4RNLs, N0AXs, W8JIs, K0BGs, AC6Vs, W4LGHs...and W4OXUs of tomorrow. Don N4KC www.n4kc.com www.donkeith.com www.n4kc.blogspot.com (A blog dedicated to rapid technological change and its effect on media, society and amateur radio) Reply to a comment by : AI2IA on 2008-10-31 Nothing regarding the FCC allocations in the radio spectrum are so stable that they cannot change due to major shifts in use or in needs. However, one of the strong points for the continued presence of amateur radio is as a resource for emergency communications. All anyone has to do is to glance at 97.1(a) "...particularly with respect to providing emergency communications." There it is right at the beginning of Part 97! This shows its importance to the FCC, to the Government. Our continued recruitment and support of this aspect of amateur radio will help us maintain all the other parts of it that we enjoy such as operating as a hobby or contesting. If every licensed ham who can joins a club, supports recruitment, participates in emcomm, or becomes a VE and helps with testing all with the idea of preserving and enhancing emergency communications first and everthing else next, we will be secure for a long time to come, at least that is how I see it. | ||
| N3GTO | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| James, I enjoyed your article, and do agree with your thoughts. My wife Lori (N3HRA) and I were involved in scouting a few years ago as Webelos leaders. During one of our regular meetings, I brought in my practice keyer to let the boys spell their name in code. They had a blast doing it. Their teacher that evening, was my son Jeremy (N3JNA) who was a Webelos himself, and licensed at age 11. I think having Jeremy teach them made it a lot more interesting than if I would have taught them. Jeremy is now 16 years old and has zero interest in amateur radio. My older son Stephen (N3HMV), who is currently 19 years old, still talks about upgrading to general someday. Because of that, I will keep my fingers crossed and renew both of their licenses. Maybe someday too, the Webelos that spelled their name in code will think back and say that was pretty neat, I think I want my amateur license. its' nise two see an artical with no misssspelld words,and proper punkchewashion.if ownlee the comenteers wood just follo yur leed.is my camputter won of the few that has spellchekerr? | ||
| N2EY | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| W4LGH writes: "3 years ago it was, we need MORE people in the hobby, so they dumbed down the tests and we got a bunch of new people, for a while, and then it leveled back off." Three years ago was 2005. What changed? The license tests were pretty much the same from 2000 to the present, with the exception that in Feb 2007 the 5 wpm code test was dropped for General and Extra. W4LGH: "Yall are paying way to much attention to the ARRL (Annoying Rotten Radio League), which has become Ham Radios worst enemy." You're mistaken. ARRL is ham radio's best friend. W4LGH: "Ham radio has always been and will always be an older persons hobby." No, it wasn't. I've been a ham since age 13, an Extra since age 16, and there are plenty of folks like me or younger. W4LGH: "It doe NOT have the "BLING" to attract and hold the younger groups today." Most people have never been interested in "radio for its own sake" anyway. W4LGH: "Now I am NOT saying that if you have someone interested in the hobby, that you shouldn't support them, you should, but trying to go after them is a complete waste of time." That depends on how you go after them. We're not going to get new hams by a hard-sell, that's for sure. But when a considerable number of people don't even know what ham radio is, we're missing a lot of opportunities. W4LGH: "The target group should be people in their late 30's and early 40's. People who have already gotten a handle on their life." NO. The target group is everyone who is interested, old or young. W4LGH: "What we need in this hobby is MORE "GOOD" people, people that will have an honest interest in the hobby and want to see it continue, NOT just shear numbers, that will stay around a year or so and go away." I agree 100%! Now, how do we publicize ham radio to those folks? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : W4LGH on 2008-10-31 Here we go again with "We need to get more youth into the hobby" crap. 3 years ago it was, we need MORE people in the hobby, so they dumbed down the tests and we got a bunch of new people, for a while, and then it leveled back off. Yall are paying way to much attention to the ARRL (Annoying Rotten Radio League), which has become Ham Radios worst enemy. Ham radio has always been and will always be an older persons hobby. It doe NOT have the "BLING" to attract and hold the younger groups today. Now I am NOT saying that if you have someone interested in the hobby, that you shouldn't support them, you should, but trying to go after them is a complete waste of time. The target group should be people in their late 30's and early 40's. People who have already gotten a handle on their life. What we need in this hobby is MORE "GOOD" people, people that will have an honest interest in the hobby and want to see it continue, NOT just shear numbers, that will stay around a year or so and go away. Stop listening to "The Annoying Rotten Radio League", all things have to come to an end sometime, but there are many years left in this hobby. The ARRL only wants more numbers so they can get more MONEY! They care NOT the quality of the operators, or YOU! If everyone went out and recruited 1 person in their age qroup, we would double in numbers. The youth of today will NOT save this fine hobby, YOU will! 73 de W4LGH - Alan http://www.w4lgh.com Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| N2EY | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| AF6AY wrote: "The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS." Well, you should know, Len, being a newcomer to ham radio yourself. It's odd, though, that you'd be yelling for newcomers when it was you who asked the FCC to create a minimum-age requirement of 14 years for all amateur radio licenses. AF6AY: "Idealism in keeping the standards and practices of the 1950s forever isn't going to cut it nor make those idealists more noble than the rest of the population." What "standards and practices of the 1950s" do you mean, Len? The use of SSB? FM? HF? Rigs that are tunable rather than channelized? What are *you* doing in amateur radio that's any different? 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : K6LHA on 2008-10-30 W3OZ posted on October 30, 2008: "I got into ham radio as a kid. That was then, now is now. There were no computers and little TV." I got into professional HF radio at age 21, courtesy of the US Army. That was a very long ago 'then' with NO satellites of any kind lofted and semi-conductors relegated to just germanium and silicon diodes and stinky selenium rectifier stacks. W3QZ: "Amateur radio WAS the latest and greatest of technology then." In all fairness, I would have to say a definite NO based on what was going on in ALL radio. Moving to southern California aerospace industry in 1956 I became acquainted with more hams in 6-land than I had in my native 9-land. 'Old-timer' hams (relatively speaking) of then were actively rationalizing their hobby by saying "we are advancing the state of the art in radio." Nonsense to me, having worked IN 24/7 HF comms for three years...but I had to be polite to my elders (of then) and had to stop explaining what I'd personally experienced. Most of those hams had no comparable experience other than their own single-operator amateur station, never venturing beyond HF, using technology based on 1930s vacuum tube architecture. I was then working IN aerospace from VHF and up in frequency using technology (most of it still using vacuum tubes) that would have left the average ham baffled in wonderment. ............... W3QZ: "Why the heck are we so concerned with getting young people in the hobby, we have a big pool of folks that are older who we should be marketing into our hobby." Big, big disagreement there. ARRL is finally, after all these many years of general technological stratification (and perhaps mummification), is beginning to see the light in terms of license numbers and How It Looks To Government. They HAVE been, continually, "marketing that older generation." This morning of the 30th of October 2008 the ARRL license stats page shows the following: 661,182 total single-operator licenses still in their 10-year license term. Of those, 309,407 are Technician class or 46.8 percent of the total. The no-code-test Technician class has existed for only 17 years yet it has become, by far, the LARGEST class in US amateur radio. Without any demographic proof whatsoever, it would still be safe to say that the average age of Technician class licensees is UNDER 40. Is it still logical to assume that all of those younger people are 'excited' over continual repetition of operating standards and practices of the 1930s or even 1950s? I don't think so. Think about numbers alone. The Federal government does that and the FCC regulates amateur radio, not a suburb of Hartford, Connecticutt. Had there been NO no-code-test Technician class, the number of amateur radio licensees would be around HALF of what they are today. That's just from normal human attrition of the boomer generation. Before the fateful date of 23 February 2007 the licensee numbers had been SHRINKING at a rate of about 3K per year after the peak on July 2, 2003...even as the Technician class had been actively increasing in numbers all that while. [see also www.hamdata.com for newcomers v. expirations and total licenses granted (including those in grace periods)] In the last two years the NEWCOMERS are just barely keeping the US amateur radio license numbers up by very slightly overcoming the expirations. The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS. Without those newcomers, the US ham numbers will keep on shrinking until the 'amateur community' becomes too small to affect FCC decisions in regards to favoring amateur regulations. Legislators will see that, too. The ARRL needs income to keep itself together. That's why they wisely organized that big PUBLISHING HOUSE they have. It MUST sell those publishing products to stay alive. Membership fees only serve to keep the staff of QST working, pay for printing and mailing costs. Membership numbers are given out to prospective ad space buyers and income from such ad space sales can be considerable. Outside of showing some pictures of (member) offspring or ham scholarship winners, the pages of QST have been largely devoid of information for the Technician class. Even if that class is approaching HALF of all active licensees, the ARRL hasn't really seemed to care about them. That's strange to me. It doesn't make good marketing sense to ignore nearly half of a potential income group. ARRL has a virtual monopoly on publications specifically for the radio amateur. Its only real competition now is CQ and some (few) columns in Popular Communications. The Internet is the biggest competitor for amateur radio information dissemination, in forums such as this and over on QRZ.com and dozens of others. But, all of these websites offer the usual bombardment of advertising that all of us see for everything else in life. It is all well and good to make happy for a niche group of a niche group of radio hobbyists. But, if those niches have fewer and fewer numbers, Legislators and Commissioners just aren't going to listen to their requests. Idealism in keeping the standards and practices of the 1950s forever isn't going to cut it nor make those idealists more noble than the rest of the population. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : W3OZ on 2008-10-30 I got into ham radio as a kid. That was then, now is now. There were no computers and little TV. Amateur radio WAS the latest and greatest of technology then. I don’t want any of my grandkids sitting on their butts doing radio. I want them active in sports, and physical activities. They have enough sedimentary activities they must do like study so they can compete with others in school. When they are old and broken down like me they can have plenty of time for ham radio. Why the heck are we so concerned with getting young people in the hobby, we have a big pool of folks that are older who we should be marketing into our hobby. | ||
| KG6WLS | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Fulfill the first mission, the rest will follo | ||
| "They will be the "great QSOs," the "super ops," the W4RNLs, N0AXs, W8JIs, K0BGs, AC6Vs, W4LGHs...and W4OXUs of tomorrow." What? You're kidding, right?? Come on... You mean to tell us that WB2WIK/6 doesn't fall in the same ranks as these? Why...I'm ...I'm just beside myself. :-) Lots of nice comments here, and some that are just stirring the eHam pot once again. Carry on!! 73 de KG6WLS Reply to a comment by : N4KC on 2008-10-31 W4LGH says, "Ham radio has always been and will always be an older persons hobby." Alan, I'm thankful Walt, W4OXU, did not believe that. He took the time to answer a 13-year-old kid's dumb questions and spent many nights (after a long workday and a two-hour-each-way commute) teaching a bunch of us teenagers about resistors, capacitors, tubes and dits and dahs. Had he adopted your attitude, and I had waited until I was 40, I would have missed out on a quarter of a century of this wonderful hobby. And guys, please don't assume everybody under 30 is hypnotized by video games or perfectly content to communicate with cell phones. I suspect there is just as big a percentage of young people out there who would be captivated by our hobby as there was in 1963. Let's make them aware and see who bites. Then let's be nurturing and welcoming and reel them in, along with the older guys. They will be the "great QSOs," the "super ops," the W4RNLs, N0AXs, W8JIs, K0BGs, AC6Vs, W4LGHs...and W4OXUs of tomorrow. Don N4KC www.n4kc.com www.donkeith.com www.n4kc.blogspot.com (A blog dedicated to rapid technological change and its effect on media, society and amateur radio) Reply to a comment by : AI2IA on 2008-10-31 Nothing regarding the FCC allocations in the radio spectrum are so stable that they cannot change due to major shifts in use or in needs. However, one of the strong points for the continued presence of amateur radio is as a resource for emergency communications. All anyone has to do is to glance at 97.1(a) "...particularly with respect to providing emergency communications." There it is right at the beginning of Part 97! This shows its importance to the FCC, to the Government. Our continued recruitment and support of this aspect of amateur radio will help us maintain all the other parts of it that we enjoy such as operating as a hobby or contesting. If every licensed ham who can joins a club, supports recruitment, participates in emcomm, or becomes a VE and helps with testing all with the idea of preserving and enhancing emergency communications first and everthing else next, we will be secure for a long time to come, at least that is how I see it. | ||
| N4KC | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Fulfill the first mission, the rest will follo | ||
| W4LGH says, "Ham radio has always been and will always be an older persons hobby." Alan, I'm thankful Walt, W4OXU, did not believe that. He took the time to answer a 13-year-old kid's dumb questions and spent many nights (after a long workday and a two-hour-each-way commute) teaching a bunch of us teenagers about resistors, capacitors, tubes and dits and dahs. Had he adopted your attitude, and I had waited until I was 40, I would have missed out on a quarter of a century of this wonderful hobby. And guys, please don't assume everybody under 30 is hypnotized by video games or perfectly content to communicate with cell phones. I suspect there is just as big a percentage of young people out there who would be captivated by our hobby as there was in 1963. Let's make them aware and see who bites. Then let's be nurturing and welcoming and reel them in, along with the older guys. They will be the "great QSOs," the "super ops," the W4RNLs, N0AXs, W8JIs, K0BGs, AC6Vs, W4LGHs...and W4OXUs of tomorrow. Don N4KC www.n4kc.com www.donkeith.com www.n4kc.blogspot.com (A blog dedicated to rapid technological change and its effect on media, society and amateur radio) Reply to a comment by : AI2IA on 2008-10-31 Nothing regarding the FCC allocations in the radio spectrum are so stable that they cannot change due to major shifts in use or in needs. However, one of the strong points for the continued presence of amateur radio is as a resource for emergency communications. All anyone has to do is to glance at 97.1(a) "...particularly with respect to providing emergency communications." There it is right at the beginning of Part 97! This shows its importance to the FCC, to the Government. Our continued recruitment and support of this aspect of amateur radio will help us maintain all the other parts of it that we enjoy such as operating as a hobby or contesting. If every licensed ham who can joins a club, supports recruitment, participates in emcomm, or becomes a VE and helps with testing all with the idea of preserving and enhancing emergency communications first and everthing else next, we will be secure for a long time to come, at least that is how I see it. | ||
| AI2IA | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| Fulfill the first mission, the rest will follow. | ||
| Nothing regarding the FCC allocations in the radio spectrum are so stable that they cannot change due to major shifts in use or in needs. However, one of the strong points for the continued presence of amateur radio is as a resource for emergency communications. All anyone has to do is to glance at 97.1(a) "...particularly with respect to providing emergency communications." There it is right at the beginning of Part 97! This shows its importance to the FCC, to the Government. Our continued recruitment and support of this aspect of amateur radio will help us maintain all the other parts of it that we enjoy such as operating as a hobby or contesting. If every licensed ham who can joins a club, supports recruitment, participates in emcomm, or becomes a VE and helps with testing all with the idea of preserving and enhancing emergency communications first and everthing else next, we will be secure for a long time to come, at least that is how I see it. | ||
| K6LHA | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| N4KC posted on October 30, 2008: "As mentioned before, most people from age 35 or so and younger have been sold, sold, sold their entire lives. Sold so often and so forcefully that they can see a pitch coming from a mile away and instantly turn off. They are bombarded by thousands of ad messages a day. Marketing (not just advertising) aimed specifically at them has to be very sophisticated and very well researched or it is likely doomed to fail." Makes sense to me, having been under advertising 'incoming' all my life. "So how do we acquaint them with this wonderful hobby and encourage them to investigate it? I'm in marketing professionally, the bulk of which is aimed at 17-to-30 years old, and it seems to me that:" All of those you listed are good tips. I can add a few things on what NOT to do: 1. Take off the clerical collar and stop the old, trite evangelism kick. As AB7E said, amateur radio is NOT a "pathway to heaven." Having a ham callsign is NOT anointed with holy water. 2. Don't parade around like a field marshal 'leader.' The hobby is not a military unit, never was, and don't expect instant respect just because YOU think you are the greatest radio operator or have some fancy titles and 'decorations' in a hobby. 3. Never act the 'superior' or look down at others asking 'dumb' questions. All who observe such acting instantly perceive it, especially from older folks then themselves. Ignorance about some hobby is just lack of knowledge, not a pejorative about a questioner's mental state. Try to respect the questioner and be polite and true in answering their questions. 4. When talking to folk younger than yourself, try to remember that they do NOT care about YOUR youth or what inspired YOUR decisions at an earlier time. To most younger folk, YOUR youth era is beyond their life experience. To them it is merely just-another-datum from a school history text. [that's awfully tough to realize but it is true] 5. Try to remember the cold, hard facts that amateurs did NOT 'invent radio' and very few did any real pioneering. Younger folk can see and hear all kinds of RADIO all around them all their lives. It has - to them - "always existed."* 6. Quit trying to crib already-done phrases of text, especially in mail-outs and websites. Repetitiousness of phrasing that some may have already seen is usually a turn-off to a reader. * My wife's alma mater, Beloit College (Beloit, WI) put out a short list in the late 1990s intended for faculty. The listing was all about things and happenings that took place BEFORE incoming freshmen were born. It got on the Internet and spread. Probably a bit satirical in its original intent as a reminder to faculty, it is a fun thing to think and talk about among older folk. It makes us 'older' folk realize that what WE have seen and experienced is UNKNOWN to 'younger' folk, was never part of their life experience. In that regard it can be useful in gauging one's approach to prospective newcomers. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : N4KC on 2008-10-30 Spoken like a true curmudgeon, K7FD! As mentioned before, most people from age 35 or so and younger have been sold, sold, sold their entire lives. Sold so often and so forcefully that they can see a pitch coming from a mile away and instantly turn off. They are bombarded by thousands of ad messages a day. Marketing (not just advertising) aimed specifically at them has to be very sophisticated and very well researched or it is likely doomed to fail. So how do we acquaint them with this wonderful hobby and encourage them to investigate it? I'm in marketing professionally, the bulk of which is aimed at 17-to-30 years old, and it seems to me that: -- We should never forcefeed them the "pitch." Expose them subtly to a wide array of what the hobby offers. Let them find on their own what piques their interest. It could as easily be old tube gear as playing video games via Oscar. You never know. Allow them to investigate it all and they'll pursue it...if they are interested. -- Spiff up the club web site, the emergency van, your handouts. Don't try to be "cool" with overdone Flash images or what you think is "hip" language, but make the site attractive, welcoming, and, most importantly, up-to-date...and I'm talking both content and technology. If the headline is a link to Field Day photos from 2003 and the home page has broken links and busted images, it gives the impression that nobody cares. -- Do a one-sheet "brochure" about the club and its activities. Maintain a supply of League brochures. They are well done by professionals. On the web site and in the literature, feature younger hams, females, African-Americans, and others who are under-represented in our hobby. I'm not saying have photos of kids with nose rings and purple hair, but show people who look like the people you want to attract. -- Get outside of the club meeting site and operate! Do a special event station on the flimsiest of excuses, just to get a nice-looking station (no wads of cables and rickety, coffee-stained card tables) in a high-traffic location on a Saturday morning. Have someone there besides the operator who can explain what is going on...when asked...and can offer literature. Someone who shaves and bathes and can speak without the jargon. And for goodness sakes, get your Field Day operation in a public place! -- I know it's difficult enough to come up with club programs that are interesting, but plan a family night, where kids and spouses and the general public are invited to a meeting. Serve refreshments and have demonstrations or PowerPoint presentations on EME, LF, digital modes, DXpeditions, emergency communications and other cool stuff. Invite the public to the open house, and publicize on local TV morning shows and newspapers. Hamfests show our best but they also show our worst sometimes. A club open house can be aimed directly at anyone with a spark of interest. -- But the main thing: be welcoming. Be helpful. Don't sugarcoat or exaggerate. Be honest. But share your experiences if asked. That includes at public events, at work when somebody asks about your HT, or in a parking lot when a passerby is curious about what your license plate means (people stop me all the time and ask who "KC" is and why I have it in for him!). Someone mentioned one in twenty might develop an interest. I doubt it is that many. But if it's one in 10,000, that's 28,000 new hams. I believe we owe it to the hobby that has given us so much to at least be welcoming to others who may want to take a peek. And to make sure they are aware of some of the things the hobby has to offer, just in case they might catch the "fungus" that has grabbed the rest of us. Don N4KC www.n4kc.com www.donkeith.com www.n4kc.blogspot.com (A blog devoted to rapid technological change and its effect on media, society and amateur radio) Reply to a comment by : K7FD on 2008-10-30 Ham Radio has had its hey day. The youth ain't coming to save it. Get over it. 73 John K7FD | ||
| K6LHA | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| AB7E posted on October 30, 2008: "If 30 years ago you had the choice between a hobby that mostly just allowed you to talk into a mic (or tap out CW) when the band was open (and only to those who had licenses) and required you to have a bunch of different unique hardware (including outdoor antennas that upset the neighbors), versus being able to speak with all of your friends anytime with a cellphone smaller than your wallet or play interactive games online with stunning graphics (on a piece of hardware you already have and complete with free group voice chat) anytime with anyone anywhere in the world ... which would you have chosen?? I sincerely doubt it would have been ham radio." In all honesty I have to agree with that. Example: CB, specifically Class D CB on the '11m band.' It was allocated 50 years ago. Half a century ago. Not a biggie as a 'hobby' about radio but it took off enough to have lots of folks get really INTO it between 45 and 50 years ago. Popular in urban areas where the measly 5 W power output could reach enough. Nearly every US communications radio manufacturer had a production model for sale and new companies were formed to exploit that new craze. Social groupings were formed, more liberal than the veddy formalized 'professional' hams thought was 'correct.' Before that end-of-the-1950s period the 'radio' interest had been with 'Hi-Fi' and the excellence of recordings on long-play vinyl grooved discs, then stereo tape, and finally, the beginning of widespread stereo FM broadcasting. ............. AB7E: "And of course this has nothing to do with the "laziness" or "immediate gratification" grumpy old men (ham radio is full of them) like to attribute to youngsters. Check out how many retired folks of both sexes are active participants in World of Warcraft or Second Life ... they dwarf late-in-life recruits to ham radio by orders of magnitude." I don't doubt it. Once the truckers took to CB with the new off-shore-made CB sets, it became too overloaded in the few 23 channels to use comfortably. In the next semi-niche hobby, personal computers, the BBS was born in the late 1970s and brought together a way-wider group of social interacters. BBSers who interacted in-person as well as on the phone lines with computer-modems were more homogenous representatives of the population. Few were radio-active but all were eager to try out this brand new medium of communications. In urban areas this kept on expanding until the Internet went public in 1991 and provided the first widespread international communications participation by computer-modem. In the 1980s the computer hobbyist community was rivaling amateur radio numbers, having more special-interest independent computer hobbyist magazines than were published in the USA at the time. By 1990 the cell phone was becoming smaller and less expensive and growing all over the country. In a decade it would become so small and so numerous that one in ten Americans were cell phone subscribers. By 2004 one in three Americans had cell phone subscriptions; teen-agers were able to use them to interact with other teeners and the 'texting' craze had begun. Why not? The price was far lower than portable ham gear, could be carried in a shirt pocket or small purse and used much without racking up a sizeable phone bill. ............ AB7E: "I would gladly try to mentor anyone who showed a budding interest in ham radio, but I don't see the point in trying to be an evangelist for the hobby." I would rather evangelize the electronics industry to younger people. It is far bigger than amateurism in radio and has FAR greater scope and variation on what it can do. It can also provide a very decent wage and be a fun job at the same time. Amateur radio is a niche hobby and the old-timers have managed to both stratify it and mummify it in old standards and practices suitable for long-past times. For younger people, the rationale that a ham license lets you "advance the state of the radio art and talk to foreign folk for 'free' on one's own station" is trite and dated. It might have worked in the 1960s but this is four decades (and two generations) later. For one thing it is definitely NOT 'free' since a decent station for HF is going to cost more than a complete PC set-up. For another, HF is NOT that reliable 24/7 and the average lower-power HF ham bands are at the mercy of the ionosphere. The only 'advancing the art' in HF radio is inside the radios and that technology has almost saturated. .............. AB7E: "Like NN4RH says, kids aren't idiots (or lazy when it comes to interesting things), and if they have any interest in what ham radio has to offer they will find it." Absolutely true. Based on my 'beginner, newbie' life experience over the last 76 years, EVERY old-generation curmudgeon gets all disgusted about the do-nothing younger generation. They just won't recognize that that THEY were once considered 'do-nothing' young wastrels by generation-older curmudgeons of their day. :-) I've read of the same attitudes prevalent in most societies over previous centuries...Pompeii curmudgeons were probably cussing THEIR do-nothing young folks just before Vesuvious blew its top and buried everyone. :-) .............. AB7E: "Most of this talk about enticing young folks into the hobby (and it is just a hobby ... it isn't the path to heaven) simply sounds to me like people in a niche activity looking for validation. Why else would you consider it to be important?" Much of the TALK is simply rationalization. On the other hand, if license numbers start to drop again and newcomers don't replace the usual human-attrition expirations, that WILL be noticed by commercial groups that might want to use ham bands for other purposes. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : AB7E on 2008-10-31 KE7UXE: "Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal." How do you figure? That isn't even remotely true. Not only is global internet voice chat full duplex, FM quality, real time, and free ... people can use it while collaborating in an online game, or while working together on a drawing or file, or while streaming music to each other. None of that is new, either ... it's been available for years from multiple sources. This is exactly what I mean. Hams lament that kids today are too lazy and disconnected with technology to discover ham radio, and the reality is that hams are too disconnected to understand the kinds of alternatives for kids that make ham radio merely a legacy curiosity for them. Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 "ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board." No it isn't...it is giving them friends to text who happen to be in Estonia, Spain and Japan. Sadly, for many the alure of ham radio is the gear. IMO it ought to be the opportunity to talk with a wide variety of people from all over the world. Ham radio is a social activity. That is what kids might like. If later they get interested in the equipment, so be it. Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal. Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| AB7E | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| KE7UXE: "Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal." How do you figure? That isn't even remotely true. Not only is global internet voice chat full duplex, FM quality, real time, and free ... people can use it while collaborating in an online game, or while working together on a drawing or file, or while streaming music to each other. None of that is new, either ... it's been available for years from multiple sources. This is exactly what I mean. Hams lament that kids today are too lazy and disconnected with technology to discover ham radio, and the reality is that hams are too disconnected to understand the kinds of alternatives for kids that make ham radio merely a legacy curiosity for them. Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 "ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board." No it isn't...it is giving them friends to text who happen to be in Estonia, Spain and Japan. Sadly, for many the alure of ham radio is the gear. IMO it ought to be the opportunity to talk with a wide variety of people from all over the world. Ham radio is a social activity. That is what kids might like. If later they get interested in the equipment, so be it. Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal. Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| K5END | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
"i have never played a video game before in my life." That kid is off to a great start! My compliments to his parents. Reply to a comment by : KI4FZY on 2008-10-31 I am 17 and i really enjoy Amateur Radio. I have had my General class since the age of 12 and the Extra since age 16. Some good points have been made here. Some one my age would rather be playing video games. Why dont I? Well that is simple. The parents say NO, just as simple as that. Other then working and being with friends, what do i do? I hang out on the bottom of the 20,40, and 80 meter bands trying to work DX on CW. It can be very challenging and very rewarding. I cannont speak from experience when i say video games can provide more excitment because i have never played a video game before in my life. I can say that i do not think that i would enjoy it as much as working a new one. 73s, James NN4JM Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| K1BXI | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| I remember an older ham in 2 land in the 50's, in which time frame found many younger people getting a license. He had a rather unique way of calling CQ. "CQ 75.......no kids....no lids...and no space cadets, 1st class operators only" Sad thing was, he really meant it. and I think I hear his echo's in this thread. John Reply to a comment by : KI4FZY on 2008-10-31 I am 17 and i really enjoy Amateur Radio. I have had my General class since the age of 12 and the Extra since age 16. Some good points have been made here. Some one my age would rather be playing video games. Why dont I? Well that is simple. The parents say NO, just as simple as that. Other then working and being with friends, what do i do? I hang out on the bottom of the 20,40, and 80 meter bands trying to work DX on CW. It can be very challenging and very rewarding. I cannont speak from experience when i say video games can provide more excitment because i have never played a video game before in my life. I can say that i do not think that i would enjoy it as much as working a new one. 73s, James NN4JM Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| KC0UZA | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Previous discussions like this one have been done. Amateur radio has only appealed to a small percentage of people anyway. We don't need to expand the number of Hams but we do want to maintain viability of the hobby. Attracting new members has to be done. Obviously some of the attraction that might have been the driving force for the hobby is being taken up by other technologies. I think we simply need to be seen doing what we do and encourage potential Hams to join our ranks without being pushy. We certainly need to be welcoming to young people. They can be easily put off by indifference or hostility. I am an older new ham having first licensed 3 years ago as a technician in August 2005. I'm old enough that if something interests me a little indifference or hostility well generally not put me off. Not necessarily so with young people. I don't believe we have to change the character of Ham radio to appeal to younger people but we must be welcoming and supportive of those that do show an interest. 73 Mike | ||
| KI4FZY | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| I am 17 and i really enjoy Amateur Radio. I have had my General class since the age of 12 and the Extra since age 16. Some good points have been made here. Some one my age would rather be playing video games. Why dont I? Well that is simple. The parents say NO, just as simple as that. Other then working and being with friends, what do i do? I hang out on the bottom of the 20,40, and 80 meter bands trying to work DX on CW. It can be very challenging and very rewarding. I cannont speak from experience when i say video games can provide more excitment because i have never played a video game before in my life. I can say that i do not think that i would enjoy it as much as working a new one. 73s, James NN4JM Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| G3RZP | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| KN4LF, W4LGH, Couldn't agree more. Reply to a comment by : AK2B on 2008-10-31 I can assure you if I were kid growing up in this day and age; if someone sat me before a computer you would have never seen me again until I started noticing that girls were pretty. By that time I would have been full of potato chips, gummy bears and diabetic. Hmm, sounds familiar. Reply to a comment by : WW2JS on 2008-10-31 I could only speak for myself and what I see. I have 2 daughters that are just about teen aged. In case you haven't heard they call them "Tweenies" today. In any case, I usually have 2 to 3 of their friends (both boys and girls)over each week doing whatever they do, play play video games go on the computer. On occassion they do see me on my rig making contacts or fiddling with something. I could count on one hand the times any of them asked me a question about what I was doing. It seems they have zero interest in radio. We listen to radio because when we were growing up radio and TV was all we had. Now the kids have the internet that has "radio" stations. Ipods playing MP3's that could be downloaded from a computer. Games on the internet, communication mediums like Skype, Yahoo messenger and AIM. Not to mention video games like XBox and Wii where you can connect via the internet and play against other kids in Australia on a 47" LCD HDTV. There is so much for them to do these days, way more than I ever had.If you are capable, let's be brutally honest with ourselves,If you were a kid today would you be interested in amateur radio? I'll let you answer that yourself. If kids want to learn about it, they'll find their way. Amateur radio is here to stay and as last weekend could attest, it's not in bad shape either. Joe WW2JS Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-10-31 KE7UXE writes: "What young people most want, and what we geezers forget, it that they want to do adult things. A kid's job is growing up. That is what play is really...learning the job. To attract young people we need to treat them like equals in the hobby." WELL SAID! There's also the fact that we should not presume that a person of a certain age (any age) will or won't like some particular activity. Some will be attracted to the "old" stuff, because it's new to them, some to the "new" stuff, etc. One of the things that has attracted young people since radio began is the fact that, on the air, nobody knows how old you are, only how good an operator you are. KE7UXE: "16 year old general class operator has the same horsepower as any of us ancient generals." I was a 16 year old Extra. The record is something like 7 years old now for an Extra licensee. KE7UXE: "If we want to attract youth to our hobby we need to make room at the table. Let them talk on our radios from CQ to 73 and they will get hooked." *SOME* of them will get hooked. Others just won't be interested. KE7UXE: "Just remember that none of us want to sit behind someone and watch them talk on the radio for very long. If a kid tells me that something I am trying to show him/her is boring it is usually because I am not involving them as equals." Of course they have to be shown how to do it first. But that doesn't take too long, particularly if you are right there if they need a little help. KE7UXE: "I think we need to get them very young and get them talking. Then we help them get their license and loan them that old Marconi model one we have had in the garage since Noah was a seaman and they will be set with a hobby for life." I agree 100%. Middle school or even younger is plenty old enough. No need to wait till high school. 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 What young people most want, and what we geezers forget, it that they want to do adult things. A kid's job is growing up. That is what play is really...learning the job. To attract young people we need to treat them like equals in the hobby. I went to a ham event where young people were encouraged to stand around and watch someone doing code. That is boring to someone who understands code but to someone who doesn't? Its like watching paint dry to watch someone else operating a radio. Hand them the microphone. Let them talk to someone many miles away. States away if possible. Have the other operator ask them about themselves; what their interests are, etc. Let them learn that there is an intersesting person on the other end by talking to them. And if they get a licence they can talk to people all over the world AS EQUALS. When you hear a young person calling talk to him as you would any other ham. Ask them about themselves. Drop by the technician voice frequency once in a while and give someone a shout. You may find some new hams there. A 16 year old general class operator has the same horsepower as any of us ancient generals. That is a very cool to a kid. Make them officers in our clubs. Not just "youth president" but real president. Kids want to do adult stuff. If we treat them as a junior member of our hobby they will ditch us quick. If we want to attract youth to our hobby we need to make room at the table. Let them talk on our radios from CQ to 73 and they will get hooked. Just remember that none of us want to sit behind someone and watch them talk on the radio for very long. If a kid tells me that something I am trying to show him/her is boring it is usually because I am not involving them as equals. Finally they can be adult by participating in emergency drills and organizations. They have the energy and stamina to be very usefull. Finally be careful of what we call youth. A 17 year old is old enough to serve in combat. And many have. I think we need to get them very young and get them talking. Then we help them get their license and loan them that old Marconi model one we have had in the garage since Noah was a seaman and they will be set with a hobby for life. And when we get old and tired, maybe they will deign to talk to us. Reply to a comment by : KB9RQZ on 2008-10-30 what is need is to bring visbility to the hobby as still being around etc I still entouer folks that think we all dieed off or that you have to learn morse code to get any license the arrl and the rest have done a poor job of just puting us out there | ||
| AK2B | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| I can assure you if I were kid growing up in this day and age; if someone sat me before a computer you would have never seen me again until I started noticing that girls were pretty. By that time I would have been full of potato chips, gummy bears and diabetic. Hmm, sounds familiar. Reply to a comment by : WW2JS on 2008-10-31 I could only speak for myself and what I see. I have 2 daughters that are just about teen aged. In case you haven't heard they call them "Tweenies" today. In any case, I usually have 2 to 3 of their friends (both boys and girls)over each week doing whatever they do, play play video games go on the computer. On occassion they do see me on my rig making contacts or fiddling with something. I could count on one hand the times any of them asked me a question about what I was doing. It seems they have zero interest in radio. We listen to radio because when we were growing up radio and TV was all we had. Now the kids have the internet that has "radio" stations. Ipods playing MP3's that could be downloaded from a computer. Games on the internet, communication mediums like Skype, Yahoo messenger and AIM. Not to mention video games like XBox and Wii where you can connect via the internet and play against other kids in Australia on a 47" LCD HDTV. There is so much for them to do these days, way more than I ever had.If you are capable, let's be brutally honest with ourselves,If you were a kid today would you be interested in amateur radio? I'll let you answer that yourself. If kids want to learn about it, they'll find their way. Amateur radio is here to stay and as last weekend could attest, it's not in bad shape either. Joe WW2JS Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-10-31 KE7UXE writes: "What young people most want, and what we geezers forget, it that they want to do adult things. A kid's job is growing up. That is what play is really...learning the job. To attract young people we need to treat them like equals in the hobby." WELL SAID! There's also the fact that we should not presume that a person of a certain age (any age) will or won't like some particular activity. Some will be attracted to the "old" stuff, because it's new to them, some to the "new" stuff, etc. One of the things that has attracted young people since radio began is the fact that, on the air, nobody knows how old you are, only how good an operator you are. KE7UXE: "16 year old general class operator has the same horsepower as any of us ancient generals." I was a 16 year old Extra. The record is something like 7 years old now for an Extra licensee. KE7UXE: "If we want to attract youth to our hobby we need to make room at the table. Let them talk on our radios from CQ to 73 and they will get hooked." *SOME* of them will get hooked. Others just won't be interested. KE7UXE: "Just remember that none of us want to sit behind someone and watch them talk on the radio for very long. If a kid tells me that something I am trying to show him/her is boring it is usually because I am not involving them as equals." Of course they have to be shown how to do it first. But that doesn't take too long, particularly if you are right there if they need a little help. KE7UXE: "I think we need to get them very young and get them talking. Then we help them get their license and loan them that old Marconi model one we have had in the garage since Noah was a seaman and they will be set with a hobby for life." I agree 100%. Middle school or even younger is plenty old enough. No need to wait till high school. 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 What young people most want, and what we geezers forget, it that they want to do adult things. A kid's job is growing up. That is what play is really...learning the job. To attract young people we need to treat them like equals in the hobby. I went to a ham event where young people were encouraged to stand around and watch someone doing code. That is boring to someone who understands code but to someone who doesn't? Its like watching paint dry to watch someone else operating a radio. Hand them the microphone. Let them talk to someone many miles away. States away if possible. Have the other operator ask them about themselves; what their interests are, etc. Let them learn that there is an intersesting person on the other end by talking to them. And if they get a licence they can talk to people all over the world AS EQUALS. When you hear a young person calling talk to him as you would any other ham. Ask them about themselves. Drop by the technician voice frequency once in a while and give someone a shout. You may find some new hams there. A 16 year old general class operator has the same horsepower as any of us ancient generals. That is a very cool to a kid. Make them officers in our clubs. Not just "youth president" but real president. Kids want to do adult stuff. If we treat them as a junior member of our hobby they will ditch us quick. If we want to attract youth to our hobby we need to make room at the table. Let them talk on our radios from CQ to 73 and they will get hooked. Just remember that none of us want to sit behind someone and watch them talk on the radio for very long. If a kid tells me that something I am trying to show him/her is boring it is usually because I am not involving them as equals. Finally they can be adult by participating in emergency drills and organizations. They have the energy and stamina to be very usefull. Finally be careful of what we call youth. A 17 year old is old enough to serve in combat. And many have. I think we need to get them very young and get them talking. Then we help them get their license and loan them that old Marconi model one we have had in the garage since Noah was a seaman and they will be set with a hobby for life. And when we get old and tired, maybe they will deign to talk to us. Reply to a comment by : KB9RQZ on 2008-10-30 what is need is to bring visbility to the hobby as still being around etc I still entouer folks that think we all dieed off or that you have to learn morse code to get any license the arrl and the rest have done a poor job of just puting us out there | ||
| WW2JS | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| I could only speak for myself and what I see. I have 2 daughters that are just about teen aged. In case you haven't heard they call them "Tweenies" today. In any case, I usually have 2 to 3 of their friends (both boys and girls)over each week doing whatever they do, play play video games go on the computer. On occassion they do see me on my rig making contacts or fiddling with something. I could count on one hand the times any of them asked me a question about what I was doing. It seems they have zero interest in radio. We listen to radio because when we were growing up radio and TV was all we had. Now the kids have the internet that has "radio" stations. Ipods playing MP3's that could be downloaded from a computer. Games on the internet, communication mediums like Skype, Yahoo messenger and AIM. Not to mention video games like XBox and Wii where you can connect via the internet and play against other kids in Australia on a 47" LCD HDTV. There is so much for them to do these days, way more than I ever had.If you are capable, let's be brutally honest with ourselves,If you were a kid today would you be interested in amateur radio? I'll let you answer that yourself. If kids want to learn about it, they'll find their way. Amateur radio is here to stay and as last weekend could attest, it's not in bad shape either. Joe WW2JS Reply to a comment by : N2EY on 2008-10-31 KE7UXE writes: "What young people most want, and what we geezers forget, it that they want to do adult things. A kid's job is growing up. That is what play is really...learning the job. To attract young people we need to treat them like equals in the hobby." WELL SAID! There's also the fact that we should not presume that a person of a certain age (any age) will or won't like some particular activity. Some will be attracted to the "old" stuff, because it's new to them, some to the "new" stuff, etc. One of the things that has attracted young people since radio began is the fact that, on the air, nobody knows how old you are, only how good an operator you are. KE7UXE: "16 year old general class operator has the same horsepower as any of us ancient generals." I was a 16 year old Extra. The record is something like 7 years old now for an Extra licensee. KE7UXE: "If we want to attract youth to our hobby we need to make room at the table. Let them talk on our radios from CQ to 73 and they will get hooked." *SOME* of them will get hooked. Others just won't be interested. KE7UXE: "Just remember that none of us want to sit behind someone and watch them talk on the radio for very long. If a kid tells me that something I am trying to show him/her is boring it is usually because I am not involving them as equals." Of course they have to be shown how to do it first. But that doesn't take too long, particularly if you are right there if they need a little help. KE7UXE: "I think we need to get them very young and get them talking. Then we help them get their license and loan them that old Marconi model one we have had in the garage since Noah was a seaman and they will be set with a hobby for life." I agree 100%. Middle school or even younger is plenty old enough. No need to wait till high school. 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 What young people most want, and what we geezers forget, it that they want to do adult things. A kid's job is growing up. That is what play is really...learning the job. To attract young people we need to treat them like equals in the hobby. I went to a ham event where young people were encouraged to stand around and watch someone doing code. That is boring to someone who understands code but to someone who doesn't? Its like watching paint dry to watch someone else operating a radio. Hand them the microphone. Let them talk to someone many miles away. States away if possible. Have the other operator ask them about themselves; what their interests are, etc. Let them learn that there is an intersesting person on the other end by talking to them. And if they get a licence they can talk to people all over the world AS EQUALS. When you hear a young person calling talk to him as you would any other ham. Ask them about themselves. Drop by the technician voice frequency once in a while and give someone a shout. You may find some new hams there. A 16 year old general class operator has the same horsepower as any of us ancient generals. That is a very cool to a kid. Make them officers in our clubs. Not just "youth president" but real president. Kids want to do adult stuff. If we treat them as a junior member of our hobby they will ditch us quick. If we want to attract youth to our hobby we need to make room at the table. Let them talk on our radios from CQ to 73 and they will get hooked. Just remember that none of us want to sit behind someone and watch them talk on the radio for very long. If a kid tells me that something I am trying to show him/her is boring it is usually because I am not involving them as equals. Finally they can be adult by participating in emergency drills and organizations. They have the energy and stamina to be very usefull. Finally be careful of what we call youth. A 17 year old is old enough to serve in combat. And many have. I think we need to get them very young and get them talking. Then we help them get their license and loan them that old Marconi model one we have had in the garage since Noah was a seaman and they will be set with a hobby for life. And when we get old and tired, maybe they will deign to talk to us. Reply to a comment by : KB9RQZ on 2008-10-30 what is need is to bring visbility to the hobby as still being around etc I still entouer folks that think we all dieed off or that you have to learn morse code to get any license the arrl and the rest have done a poor job of just puting us out there | ||
| K1CJS | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Another thing that may be giving ham radio a bad name in the eyes of the youth is the continual insistance that ham radio = emergency communications. Think about it--some kids may be interested because of the excitement of being around where things are happening, but when they find out they're expected to be there to help every time things are happening, the appeal quickly fades. Another thing is the kids today are put off by just about all things 'geeky', and some hams today are hard core geeks. (No offence meant, people.) A hobby is supposed to be for enjoyment and discovery. This hobby has been twisted and turned into something it isn't supposed to be--an emergency communication profession. Part 97 sort of prohibits things like that--but its meaning has been twisted just as much by those 'professional emergency communicators'. Just maybe that is why this 'hobby' is dying--it's no longer a hobby to too many people, and isn't introduced to newcomers by those people as a hobby. | ||
| NV2A | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| N3OX "OMG UR 5NN".........that was a coffee sprayer ! LOL Reply to a comment by : N3OX on 2008-10-30 "When a youth comes to your shack what does he see? There is nothing wrong with antique equipment. And, they don't have to see the latest and greatest. But, is there something in his realm to interest him or her?" I do see the point you're making here, but I don't know that what we need to do is target what we *think* are the interests of "kids today." The thing that got me interested in radio in high school in 1995 was radio. It was the basic physical layer of ham communications that interested me, and it wasn't whether or not the radios on either end were modern or not, and it wasn't the mode that carried the message or the message itself. It was the idea that you could wiggle electrons in an antenna here and they'd make some electrons wiggle in an antenna halfway across the world when conditions were right. There's nothing in between but electromagnetic waves and the ionosphere. It's unpredictable and fascinating. AI2IA hints at the type of kids that are likely to go into ham radio, and I wasn't an exception. I had a curiosity about science and electronics that made ham radio interesting to me. I think you could build a full-fledged HF SMS system so you could text "OMG UR 5NN.. UR PWR 5W? LOL! 73, BFF!" to your DX buddies and I bet you'd still find that interest in ham radio would come mostly from the kids who walk around wondering how their mobile phone manages to stay in contact with the network , and wondering why the dead spots are where they are, that kind of thing. Unreliability and unpredictability are a liability in modern communications systems. They're an asset to ham radio ;-) 73 Dan Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| K7NNG | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| All six of my children are in their mid forties and late 30s. NONE of them ever expressed interest in ham radio. They think it is cool that DAD can "talk" on the radio to faraway folks, with morse code, but that is it. My grandchildren sit and watch me, but dont appear to have interest either. Like many have stated, youth will come to radio if they have a interest. | ||
| N2EY | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| KE7UXE writes: "What young people most want, and what we geezers forget, it that they want to do adult things. A kid's job is growing up. That is what play is really...learning the job. To attract young people we need to treat them like equals in the hobby." WELL SAID! There's also the fact that we should not presume that a person of a certain age (any age) will or won't like some particular activity. Some will be attracted to the "old" stuff, because it's new to them, some to the "new" stuff, etc. One of the things that has attracted young people since radio began is the fact that, on the air, nobody knows how old you are, only how good an operator you are. KE7UXE: "16 year old general class operator has the same horsepower as any of us ancient generals." I was a 16 year old Extra. The record is something like 7 years old now for an Extra licensee. KE7UXE: "If we want to attract youth to our hobby we need to make room at the table. Let them talk on our radios from CQ to 73 and they will get hooked." *SOME* of them will get hooked. Others just won't be interested. KE7UXE: "Just remember that none of us want to sit behind someone and watch them talk on the radio for very long. If a kid tells me that something I am trying to show him/her is boring it is usually because I am not involving them as equals." Of course they have to be shown how to do it first. But that doesn't take too long, particularly if you are right there if they need a little help. KE7UXE: "I think we need to get them very young and get them talking. Then we help them get their license and loan them that old Marconi model one we have had in the garage since Noah was a seaman and they will be set with a hobby for life." I agree 100%. Middle school or even younger is plenty old enough. No need to wait till high school. 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : KC7MF on 2008-10-31 What young people most want, and what we geezers forget, it that they want to do adult things. A kid's job is growing up. That is what play is really...learning the job. To attract young people we need to treat them like equals in the hobby. I went to a ham event where young people were encouraged to stand around and watch someone doing code. That is boring to someone who understands code but to someone who doesn't? Its like watching paint dry to watch someone else operating a radio. Hand them the microphone. Let them talk to someone many miles away. States away if possible. Have the other operator ask them about themselves; what their interests are, etc. Let them learn that there is an intersesting person on the other end by talking to them. And if they get a licence they can talk to people all over the world AS EQUALS. When you hear a young person calling talk to him as you would any other ham. Ask them about themselves. Drop by the technician voice frequency once in a while and give someone a shout. You may find some new hams there. A 16 year old general class operator has the same horsepower as any of us ancient generals. That is a very cool to a kid. Make them officers in our clubs. Not just "youth president" but real president. Kids want to do adult stuff. If we treat them as a junior member of our hobby they will ditch us quick. If we want to attract youth to our hobby we need to make room at the table. Let them talk on our radios from CQ to 73 and they will get hooked. Just remember that none of us want to sit behind someone and watch them talk on the radio for very long. If a kid tells me that something I am trying to show him/her is boring it is usually because I am not involving them as equals. Finally they can be adult by participating in emergency drills and organizations. They have the energy and stamina to be very usefull. Finally be careful of what we call youth. A 17 year old is old enough to serve in combat. And many have. I think we need to get them very young and get them talking. Then we help them get their license and loan them that old Marconi model one we have had in the garage since Noah was a seaman and they will be set with a hobby for life. And when we get old and tired, maybe they will deign to talk to us. Reply to a comment by : KB9RQZ on 2008-10-30 what is need is to bring visbility to the hobby as still being around etc I still entouer folks that think we all dieed off or that you have to learn morse code to get any license the arrl and the rest have done a poor job of just puting us out there | ||
| KC7MF | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| "ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board." No it isn't...it is giving them friends to text who happen to be in Estonia, Spain and Japan. Sadly, for many the alure of ham radio is the gear. IMO it ought to be the opportunity to talk with a wide variety of people from all over the world. Ham radio is a social activity. That is what kids might like. If later they get interested in the equipment, so be it. Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal. Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| KC7MF | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| "ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board." No it isn't...it is giving them friends to text who happen to be in Estonia, Spain and Japan. Sadly, for many the alure of ham radio is the gear. IMO it ought to be the opportunity to talk with a wide variety of people from all over the world. Ham radio is a social activity. That is what kids might like. If later they get interested in the equipment, so be it. Kids are already using technology to talk to their friends but this communication lacks the intimacy of actually talking with someone in real time. They can do some of this on the internet but radio is a better method. More personal. Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| W4LGH | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Here we go again with "We need to get more youth into the hobby" crap. 3 years ago it was, we need MORE people in the hobby, so they dumbed down the tests and we got a bunch of new people, for a while, and then it leveled back off. Yall are paying way to much attention to the ARRL (Annoying Rotten Radio League), which has become Ham Radios worst enemy. Ham radio has always been and will always be an older persons hobby. It doe NOT have the "BLING" to attract and hold the younger groups today. Now I am NOT saying that if you have someone interested in the hobby, that you shouldn't support them, you should, but trying to go after them is a complete waste of time. The target group should be people in their late 30's and early 40's. People who have already gotten a handle on their life. What we need in this hobby is MORE "GOOD" people, people that will have an honest interest in the hobby and want to see it continue, NOT just shear numbers, that will stay around a year or so and go away. Stop listening to "The Annoying Rotten Radio League", all things have to come to an end sometime, but there are many years left in this hobby. The ARRL only wants more numbers so they can get more MONEY! They care NOT the quality of the operators, or YOU! If everyone went out and recruited 1 person in their age qroup, we would double in numbers. The youth of today will NOT save this fine hobby, YOU will! 73 de W4LGH - Alan http://www.w4lgh.com Reply to a comment by : N5ZTPN5ZTP on 2008-10-31 todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| N5ZTPN5ZTP | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| todays youth are much smarter than we ever give them credit for. if exposed to amateur radio, some will develope an attraction. but reading the comments on eham or listing to hams complain for hours at time on the bands is not the proper exposure. i have been a ham since 1992,and only once seen anyone try to send code and they really did not know how.once i saw a packet system set up at field day, all they did was look up call signs.i am sure other areas of the country my be differrent, but listening to hams talk about 100ft towers $4000 radios and 5kw amps, gets old.and i know some will say GET OUT, well i am, a few pieces at a time. back to the point, the youth, the way that amateur radio is being presented has got to change, because what they have access to now is far more exciting than what hams have to offer.the article talked about giving colors and a coloring book to kids with xboxs and commputers at home. ham radio is giving them chalk and a slate board. | ||
| KC7MF | 2008-10-31 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| What young people most want, and what we geezers forget, it that they want to do adult things. A kid's job is growing up. That is what play is really...learning the job. To attract young people we need to treat them like equals in the hobby. I went to a ham event where young people were encouraged to stand around and watch someone doing code. That is boring to someone who understands code but to someone who doesn't? Its like watching paint dry to watch someone else operating a radio. Hand them the microphone. Let them talk to someone many miles away. States away if possible. Have the other operator ask them about themselves; what their interests are, etc. Let them learn that there is an intersesting person on the other end by talking to them. And if they get a licence they can talk to people all over the world AS EQUALS. When you hear a young person calling talk to him as you would any other ham. Ask them about themselves. Drop by the technician voice frequency once in a while and give someone a shout. You may find some new hams there. A 16 year old general class operator has the same horsepower as any of us ancient generals. That is a very cool to a kid. Make them officers in our clubs. Not just "youth president" but real president. Kids want to do adult stuff. If we treat them as a junior member of our hobby they will ditch us quick. If we want to attract youth to our hobby we need to make room at the table. Let them talk on our radios from CQ to 73 and they will get hooked. Just remember that none of us want to sit behind someone and watch them talk on the radio for very long. If a kid tells me that something I am trying to show him/her is boring it is usually because I am not involving them as equals. Finally they can be adult by participating in emergency drills and organizations. They have the energy and stamina to be very usefull. Finally be careful of what we call youth. A 17 year old is old enough to serve in combat. And many have. I think we need to get them very young and get them talking. Then we help them get their license and loan them that old Marconi model one we have had in the garage since Noah was a seaman and they will be set with a hobby for life. And when we get old and tired, maybe they will deign to talk to us. Reply to a comment by : KB9RQZ on 2008-10-30 what is need is to bring visbility to the hobby as still being around etc I still entouer folks that think we all dieed off or that you have to learn morse code to get any license the arrl and the rest have done a poor job of just puting us out there | ||
| KB9RQZ | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| what is need is to bring visbility to the hobby as still being around etc I still entouer folks that think we all dieed off or that you have to learn morse code to get any license the arrl and the rest have done a poor job of just puting us out there | ||
| KI4WFM | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| "Ham Radio has had its hey day. The youth ain't coming to save it. Get over it" Oh you are so wrong....My local club has had several visit and join recently. On out VHF net tonight there was a young lady who just put up her first antenna and checked into a net for the first time. The trick is....stop treating them like kids. They have the same interest you did 43 year ago. The question is, how to you capture, nurse, and grow that interest? Get them on the air.....let them chat with people, not just DX but true ragchew also. Let them run a little slow scan or maybe a satellite QSO. One moon bounce and you have them. My teenager is not interested at all but my 10 year old is all excited. The question is,,,will I stop making random contacts and let her get on the air...You bet. Other than saying the kid's are a lost cause, reach out and give them the opportunity to do more than listen to a few dit-dah's. Let them get into it an have some fun. And don't ever give up on them. I wanted my license for 40 years before I got it. I just couldn't find the HAM that would take the time to work with "a kid". 73. Allen, KI4WFM Reply to a comment by : K7FD on 2008-10-30 Ham Radio has had its hey day. The youth ain't coming to save it. Get over it. 73 John K7FD | ||
| KD4LLA | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| We are up against demographics, there are just less kids nowadays. The kids find out early if they have special talent (of any sort) and their parents then provide for every whim and wish. Face it, radio just is not exiting anymore for kids who can text and video at a moments notice. I became a ham just before the Internet. It was exiting (at age 40) to be involved with two different radio clubs. One club for sure does not exist anymore and the other may not either. While we hams were dealing with packet and code/no code (in the 1990's), internet technology passed us by. Now we hams are trying to re-invent ourselves in the name of emergency comms. Digital capable radios (P-25)and on-the-fly linking are now going to technologically pass us again. | ||
| AB7E | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| KB2DHG: "It is so unfortunate that the youth of today are not concerned or interested in Science and Technology." Agreed, but ham radio is no longer the path for that. To be interesting, it has to offer something that other activities can't do, and it needs to be relevant to modern society (entertainment, job functions, etc). Ham radio is neither. KB2DHG: "I also find that these kids don't want to work for anything... They are not up to a challenge. They all want it now and with no hassles." Bull crap. Today's kids will spend hundreds of hours learning how to play a video game, become good on a skateboard, operate a web site, play a guitar in a band, be able to dance, operate a computer, etc. Just because you don't value those activities doesn't make them useless or wrong. I mean, I can't think of anything more useless to a youngster today than learning how to build and put up an antenna (even though it it is one of MY favorite aspects of the hobby). KB2DHG: "I can't tell you how many times when I have a visitor over to my home and they see my shack, that they never even heard of ham radio! YOUNG AND OLD ALIKE!" Yeah, and that ought to calibrate you on how relevant ham radio is anymore to anyone other than those of us who got interested back when it was relevant, and maybe a small handful of new recruits that find it interesting as a quirky diversion. Ham radio isn't mainstream anything anymore ... not communications, not entertainment, not a path into a modern job. All this nonsense about making a special effort to draw newcomers, young or old, into ham radio is simply the result of hams being worried about being marginalized, and that my friends is inevitable. 73, Dave AB7E Reply to a comment by : KB2DHG on 2008-10-30 It is so unfortunate that the youth of today are not concerned or interested in Science and Technology. When I try to intice a younger person to get interested in Amateur Radio I get the same responce... What is so cool about that? I can talk to people all over the world too on my cell phone or computer. They are not interested in the physics of it, the science and tecnical aspect of how we acheive our communication around the world. The real problem is contained right here in the United States. I am finding many young foreign hams. Other countries instill the importance of the arts and sceiences. We don't I also find that these kids don't want to work for anything... They are not up to a challenge. They all want it now and with no hassels. WHAT tell them thay have to study for a test? Tell them they have to try to errect an antenna? I am a VE and give the exam once a month. Most of the new commers to this hobby are on an avarage of 40 years old. THE VERY FEW children that come in to take the test are either children of a HAM or a kid from a non American background. We need to show how much fun and rewarding this hobby is by getting out in the public eye and getting as much media exposure as possable. People like riding band wagons....SHOW HAM RADIO IN TV PROGRAMS AND MOVIES! I can't tell you how many times when I have a visitor over to my home and they see my shack, that they never even heard of ham radio! YOUNG AND OLD ALIKE! We are just not out there and that my friends is why I think that this hobby (AND I HOPE I AM DEAD WRONG) will die with us! | ||
| WA0LYK | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| K1BXI You don't suppose it's because of a lack of interest in the sciences in todays educational system. Unless one is interested in the science of why radio works there seems little reason for a young person to pursue this hobby I believe. To them, there are many better ways to communicate if communicating is the only reason we give for obtaining an amateur license. I'm not sure how we instill that urge to explore the reasons of how and why things work in this universe, perhaps your born with it. But there seems to be less of it (at least in the US) at a time when the means of exploring are more than ever. There's a lot of exploring left to do and radio will be a part of it. John ========================================================= Bingo! Everywhere you turn these days is information that the US is not graduating science and engineering students in the numbers required. I was watching one of the cspan channels and someone postulated that we will be losing 1/2 of the nations engineers in the next 20 years with no chance of replacing them with graduates from US universities. Their postulate was that this wasn't a good sign for the upcoming energy independence project. As has been stated, communications is NOT going to be the magic bullet that interests young folks in ham radio. I got my novice license when I was 13 and while dx was certainly interesting, the key was learning about the electronics. Voltage, current, components, etc. Its no different today. Those that want to learn how things work will be interested, those that don't simply have too many other things to occupy their time and interest (most importantly girls). If the arrl is really interested they need to find a way into the education establishment and assist in finding a way to interest more kids in math and science. Otherwise, we will become a nation of ignoramuses when it comes to electronic fundamentals. We will end up being as dependent on other nations for our engineering as we are today for oil. In fact, we are already far along this curve today and I have seen nothing from our politicians or educators that it is even on the radar. Jim WA0LYK Reply to a comment by : K6JPA on 2008-10-30 My personal interest in amateur radio came from the experimental kits that Radio Shack used to sell (remember the "build your own electronic project" boards with the spring connectors at each resistor, etc.?) Each Holiday season, I wanted a bigger and better kit. I learned basic electronic theory from these, and they eventially sparked an interest in communications equipment. Having a neighbor slightly older than me that was into SWL set the hook. From that point, two-way communications naturally followed. It's a shame that there are such few advertising pitches showing the wonders of basic electronics and the magic of listening to foreign broadcasts and amateur bands targeted at our youth. Sometimes, when that spark of curiousity is fueled in a young mind, it can kindle a life-long interest. | ||
| K1RON | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: RESPECT | ||
| I had an interesting experience at a recent statewide Boy Scout Jamboree here in 1-land. One of the Venture Crews at the Jambo had set up a shack, and it was full of boys all weekend talking around the globe, using all modes, and just making it seem interesting and fun to other boys. They had told all the adult leaders for the Jamboree that they'd be on the air for the weekend in advance. Many of us who were licensed brought an HT, to check in on the simplex 2M net they had going during the weekend in addition to the HF work they were doing. There were over 6000 youth and maybe 1000 adults camping at this event for the Columbus Day weekend, many of them who were able to have a quick QSO with the folks in the shack from somewhere else on the compound, and then stop in later in the day to pick up a QSL card from the special event station. The adults in the crew, and the boys, were talking to Scouts all weekend. No pressure, just letting them know what they were up to, and giving them a chance to sit in. One thing they all seemed to notice was unlike phone conversations, everyone on net was able to be part of the conversation. Several of them commented on how it was cool that all of them were in on the same discussions. Imagine my surprise, when at our next Scout meeting, a couple of the boys in my troop ask if they can work on their Radio Merit Badge, and maybe try to get licensed! I'm going to try to partner with the local ARRL sponsored Ham group that also runs our local repeater to get the boys into the clubhouse, and work with some of the younger members of the club, in addition to myself and one of my other adult leaders. We're also going to take some portable gear with us when we do our White Mountains hike this spring. I think operating from 6288 ft (Mt Washington in NH) will give us decent coverage! The boys will hike up, but, we can drive a vehicle up to the weather station parking lot near the top, and hopefully operate from there. If I had suggested this to the boys before that Jambo, I don't think any of them would have been interested. Somehow, seeing so many other teens having fun operating in many different modes to places from within the compound to around the world was enough to spark something. We'll see how it goes. 73 - Ron, N1GFS Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-30 You know what the young potentional new Ham Operator is doing right now? They are reading what I just typed. If you care, be careful what you say. If you don't care, I guess it doesn't matter. Either way, most all of the Youth of Amateur Radio is seeing it. It's about respect for one another, either you have it or you don't. How do you guys ever think those new Hams will ever SEE your old antique Rigs, if you spit in their face at the door? That's what your doing right here on this website fellas. Some of you guys here care about YOU not the Youth or the Hobby. If i'm wrong PROVE IT! If you want Young and New involvement in this Hobby, give them a REASON to involve themselves!! Good Article Scott!! Best 73 ES God Bless!! PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| W5HTW | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: RESPECT | ||
| Every child at the age of four should be required to get an Extra Class ham license or he doesn't get into kindergarten. And he gets no allowance, either! By age six he must be issued his badge and light bars (for his tricycle) and be required to sign up for ARES. Meanwhile every kid with a cell phone must be issued a call sign. Yep, we can do it, America. Just takes effort Ed Reply to a comment by : PLANKEYE on 2008-10-30 You know what the young potentional new Ham Operator is doing right now? They are reading what I just typed. If you care, be careful what you say. If you don't care, I guess it doesn't matter. Either way, most all of the Youth of Amateur Radio is seeing it. It's about respect for one another, either you have it or you don't. How do you guys ever think those new Hams will ever SEE your old antique Rigs, if you spit in their face at the door? That's what your doing right here on this website fellas. Some of you guys here care about YOU not the Youth or the Hobby. If i'm wrong PROVE IT! If you want Young and New involvement in this Hobby, give them a REASON to involve themselves!! Good Article Scott!! Best 73 ES God Bless!! PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| PLANKEYE | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: RESPECT | ||
| You know what the young potentional new Ham Operator is doing right now? They are reading what I just typed. If you care, be careful what you say. If you don't care, I guess it doesn't matter. Either way, most all of the Youth of Amateur Radio is seeing it. It's about respect for one another, either you have it or you don't. How do you guys ever think those new Hams will ever SEE your old antique Rigs, if you spit in their face at the door? That's what your doing right here on this website fellas. Some of you guys here care about YOU not the Youth or the Hobby. If i'm wrong PROVE IT! If you want Young and New involvement in this Hobby, give them a REASON to involve themselves!! Good Article Scott!! Best 73 ES God Bless!! PLANKEYE Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| K5END | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| "The funny thing is that not everyone agreeing with this statement has the same result in mind as they agree with it ;-)" Yes, this I know, and is why I felt it was OK to post it without choosing a side. :-) Reply to a comment by : N3OX on 2008-10-30 "Depending on what happens next Tuesday on the ballot, this may come sooner than we imagine. " The funny thing is that not everyone agreeing with this statement has the same result in mind as they agree with it ;-) Reply to a comment by : W5ROY on 2008-10-30 WOW!!!! Last weekend at at Bluegrass festival, I ran into some friends that play in a band (Triple L,Portales NM.). Dad and the three boys had just recently passed and received their license (Tech), and after congratulating them, I asked what about upgrading? HMMM they had not thought about that, as they were not told about the world of HF. I promptly went to the mobile, and showed them HF, and APRS. Boy did that spark some enthusiasm!! Just think, our friends can follow our bus around the country as we travel to other festivals. The lack of promoting other interests in amateur radio is an ever growing problem. I have now offered the general study guide to them at no cost, and they are fired up and ready to go. Soon we will have a few more generals on the air, and with a little elmering, they will be an asset to the amateur radio community. Find that new Tech. and inspire him or her to go farther and higher, and experience the world at their fingertips. I personally have brought in a half dozen or so, and help them at every chance I am given. If inspired, they will in turn bring others into the hobby. The secret is to make it fun and challenging at the same time. Good luck on your recruiting. 73 de W5ROY Roy Reply to a comment by : AC7ZL on 2008-10-30 K5END, you make some excellent points, though let me take your argument one step further. You talk about the value of ham radio as a hedge against the potential loss of the infrastructure that supports other communications (like cell phones, the internet, etc). There are plenty of Pollyannas out there who will tell you that this could never happen. However, I would point out that such a loss would not necessarily have to be physical in nature. It doesn't have to result from damage or destruction caused by warfare, EMP, or a hurricane. The loss may easily occur as the result of politics and legislation. Read this article: "Australia To Implement Mandatory Internet Censorship" http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24568137-2862,00.html If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere. There may come a time when the only free thoughts to be heard will be found on the ham bands. I only hope that hams will respect, honor, and appreciate what a gift that is, and use it accordingly. Pete AC7ZL ===================================== K5END said: >I'm not aware of any "inter-campus" network game that >does not depend on the civilian telecom >infrastructure. > >Lose your ISP or cell phone service, and you're out >of the game. > >If the world's telephone and internet services >stopped working (which could happen more easily than >you might think) I'd still be able to talk to someone >thousands of miles away, in real time. > >That sets amateur radio apart from anything else >available to civilians, and may be an attractive >feature to new amateurs in this age of information >technology. Reply to a comment by : K5END on 2008-10-30 I'm not aware of any "inter-campus" network game that does not depend on the civilian telecom infrastructure. Lose your ISP or cell phone service, and you're out of the game. If the world's telephone and internet services stopped working (which could happen more easily than you might think) I'd still be able to talk to someone thousands of miles away, in real time. That sets amateur radio apart from anything else available to civilians, and may be an attractive feature to new amateurs in this age of information technology. Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-10-30 How about we query teenagers and younger people and find out why they are not interested in ham radio. Ask a teenage ham what interested them. There is your answer. Get it from the horses's mouth. Reply to a comment by : KB1QXR on 2008-10-30 A simple suggestion to attract youth- FIX YOUR CLUB'S WEBSITE. To today's youth (and by youth I'm counting anybody under 23), if something doesn't have a website it doesn't exist. If the website shows an 'upcoming event' that happened last month, that means nobody cares about it so no reason to bother. If the website is written in 1990s-era HTML and shows it, that means the club is a bunch of dumb kids or stupid old farts with no idea what they're doing. I'm not saying any of the above is true. I'm saying that after visiting the ARRL or other national site, a prospective ham is probably going to check out their local club for a VE test. And THAT is the real first impression the hobby needs to make. If that first impression suggests a good group of helpful people that aren't all 80 years old, you've hooked the prospective ham. If the first impression suggests a bunch of old geezers that either don't care or can't update their website, you've lost him. If the only pictures on the website are of 60+yr old people wearing those (lets be honest) dorky salvation army vests during an ARES test, you've lost pretty much everybody under 40 that will see it. If your club has ANY younger members (or even kids of members), use them in pictures as much as you can. It will greatly increase younger membership if they think other people their age (or even somewhat close) are hams. Web forums are better than email 'reflectors' because the archived conversations are easily available. Let anyone register an account but make sure the forum doesn't get spammed, a healthy forum is ALWAYS a sign of a healthy community. And there's nothing wrong with reaching out (as long as it's not pushing)-- public field day tents are great, as long as they have plenty of brochures and info. This works 10x better if the people manning the tent are within 10 age years of the visitor-- a 25 yr old will relate better to a 35 year old than he will to a 65 yr old. So if your club has young members, get them out on field day! And speaking of age, equipment matters too. A modern youth (again speaking 25 and under) is going to be far more impressed by a modern radio (ie Icom IC-7x00) than he will be with old vacuum tube gear. In short: old hams running old gear = old hobby. Young hams running modern gear = modern hobby. I'm again not saying this is true, but I am saying that it's the impression someone who just sees the tent (without talking or taking brocures) will get. Lastly (and most important)- when recruiting, you must abandon any notions of what ham radio 'should' be. If you think CW is the only real way to go, stay home. The beauty of this hobby is the wide variety of interests it can support, that includes everything from Extra-class homebrew CW users running QRP into long wire antennas, to Tech 'appliance operators' running HTs on the local repeater. Both are hams, and both earned their license. You want people to aspire to a higher license / learning more, not shove it down their throat saying they're a bad ham because they aren't interested in going farther. /rant | ||
| K5END | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
"potential loss of the infrastructure that supports other communications (like cell phones, the internet, etc). There are plenty of Pollyannas out there who will tell you that this could never happen." It happens in Houston to some extent every time we have a hurricane or tropical storm. The worst I've seen was during Allison, and she wasn't even a full hurricane. Funny, but the national news didn't cover it much at all. And Ike was worse than Katrina in many ways, but the news media focused on the financial activity, as if "white collar crooks" are something new and interesting. Of course, when Katrina hit N'Awlins, it was non-stop news for several days--and not hard to figure out why... ok, stepping down off soap box now. During these storms, the cell phone system is first compromised, and then overloaded. Then the LEC C.O.s often get submerged and can take days or weeks to repair. Visit Galveston right now and tell me what you see, and smell. I can tell you from personal experience that it is a very, very, very disquieting feeling to have 2 landlines, 2 cell phones and an ISP, and have all of them stop working within a few hours. You are isolated with no way to travel--short of an amphibian vehicle--and no way to call for help. Unless you are a ham. Reply to a comment by : AC7ZL on 2008-10-30 K5END, you make some excellent points, though let me take your argument one step further. You talk about the value of ham radio as a hedge against the potential loss of the infrastructure that supports other communications (like cell phones, the internet, etc). There are plenty of Pollyannas out there who will tell you that this could never happen. However, I would point out that such a loss would not necessarily have to be physical in nature. It doesn't have to result from damage or destruction caused by warfare, EMP, or a hurricane. The loss may easily occur as the result of politics and legislation. Read this article: "Australia To Implement Mandatory Internet Censorship" http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24568137-2862,00.html If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere. There may come a time when the only free thoughts to be heard will be found on the ham bands. I only hope that hams will respect, honor, and appreciate what a gift that is, and use it accordingly. Pete AC7ZL ===================================== K5END said: >I'm not aware of any "inter-campus" network game that >does not depend on the civilian telecom >infrastructure. > >Lose your ISP or cell phone service, and you're out >of the game. > >If the world's telephone and internet services >stopped working (which could happen more easily than >you might think) I'd still be able to talk to someone >thousands of miles away, in real time. > >That sets amateur radio apart from anything else >available to civilians, and may be an attractive >feature to new amateurs in this age of information >technology. Reply to a comment by : K5END on 2008-10-30 I'm not aware of any "inter-campus" network game that does not depend on the civilian telecom infrastructure. Lose your ISP or cell phone service, and you're out of the game. If the world's telephone and internet services stopped working (which could happen more easily than you might think) I'd still be able to talk to someone thousands of miles away, in real time. That sets amateur radio apart from anything else available to civilians, and may be an attractive feature to new amateurs in this age of information technology. Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-10-30 How about we query teenagers and younger people and find out why they are not interested in ham radio. Ask a teenage ham what interested them. There is your answer. Get it from the horses's mouth. Reply to a comment by : KB1QXR on 2008-10-30 A simple suggestion to attract youth- FIX YOUR CLUB'S WEBSITE. To today's youth (and by youth I'm counting anybody under 23), if something doesn't have a website it doesn't exist. If the website shows an 'upcoming event' that happened last month, that means nobody cares about it so no reason to bother. If the website is written in 1990s-era HTML and shows it, that means the club is a bunch of dumb kids or stupid old farts with no idea what they're doing. I'm not saying any of the above is true. I'm saying that after visiting the ARRL or other national site, a prospective ham is probably going to check out their local club for a VE test. And THAT is the real first impression the hobby needs to make. If that first impression suggests a good group of helpful people that aren't all 80 years old, you've hooked the prospective ham. If the first impression suggests a bunch of old geezers that either don't care or can't update their website, you've lost him. If the only pictures on the website are of 60+yr old people wearing those (lets be honest) dorky salvation army vests during an ARES test, you've lost pretty much everybody under 40 that will see it. If your club has ANY younger members (or even kids of members), use them in pictures as much as you can. It will greatly increase younger membership if they think other people their age (or even somewhat close) are hams. Web forums are better than email 'reflectors' because the archived conversations are easily available. Let anyone register an account but make sure the forum doesn't get spammed, a healthy forum is ALWAYS a sign of a healthy community. And there's nothing wrong with reaching out (as long as it's not pushing)-- public field day tents are great, as long as they have plenty of brochures and info. This works 10x better if the people manning the tent are within 10 age years of the visitor-- a 25 yr old will relate better to a 35 year old than he will to a 65 yr old. So if your club has young members, get them out on field day! And speaking of age, equipment matters too. A modern youth (again speaking 25 and under) is going to be far more impressed by a modern radio (ie Icom IC-7x00) than he will be with old vacuum tube gear. In short: old hams running old gear = old hobby. Young hams running modern gear = modern hobby. I'm again not saying this is true, but I am saying that it's the impression someone who just sees the tent (without talking or taking brocures) will get. Lastly (and most important)- when recruiting, you must abandon any notions of what ham radio 'should' be. If you think CW is the only real way to go, stay home. The beauty of this hobby is the wide variety of interests it can support, that includes everything from Extra-class homebrew CW users running QRP into long wire antennas, to Tech 'appliance operators' running HTs on the local repeater. Both are hams, and both earned their license. You want people to aspire to a higher license / learning more, not shove it down their throat saying they're a bad ham because they aren't interested in going farther. /rant | ||
| N3OX | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| "Depending on what happens next Tuesday on the ballot, this may come sooner than we imagine. " The funny thing is that not everyone agreeing with this statement has the same result in mind as they agree with it ;-) Reply to a comment by : W5ROY on 2008-10-30 WOW!!!! Last weekend at at Bluegrass festival, I ran into some friends that play in a band (Triple L,Portales NM.). Dad and the three boys had just recently passed and received their license (Tech), and after congratulating them, I asked what about upgrading? HMMM they had not thought about that, as they were not told about the world of HF. I promptly went to the mobile, and showed them HF, and APRS. Boy did that spark some enthusiasm!! Just think, our friends can follow our bus around the country as we travel to other festivals. The lack of promoting other interests in amateur radio is an ever growing problem. I have now offered the general study guide to them at no cost, and they are fired up and ready to go. Soon we will have a few more generals on the air, and with a little elmering, they will be an asset to the amateur radio community. Find that new Tech. and inspire him or her to go farther and higher, and experience the world at their fingertips. I personally have brought in a half dozen or so, and help them at every chance I am given. If inspired, they will in turn bring others into the hobby. The secret is to make it fun and challenging at the same time. Good luck on your recruiting. 73 de W5ROY Roy Reply to a comment by : AC7ZL on 2008-10-30 K5END, you make some excellent points, though let me take your argument one step further. You talk about the value of ham radio as a hedge against the potential loss of the infrastructure that supports other communications (like cell phones, the internet, etc). There are plenty of Pollyannas out there who will tell you that this could never happen. However, I would point out that such a loss would not necessarily have to be physical in nature. It doesn't have to result from damage or destruction caused by warfare, EMP, or a hurricane. The loss may easily occur as the result of politics and legislation. Read this article: "Australia To Implement Mandatory Internet Censorship" http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24568137-2862,00.html If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere. There may come a time when the only free thoughts to be heard will be found on the ham bands. I only hope that hams will respect, honor, and appreciate what a gift that is, and use it accordingly. Pete AC7ZL ===================================== K5END said: >I'm not aware of any "inter-campus" network game that >does not depend on the civilian telecom >infrastructure. > >Lose your ISP or cell phone service, and you're out >of the game. > >If the world's telephone and internet services >stopped working (which could happen more easily than >you might think) I'd still be able to talk to someone >thousands of miles away, in real time. > >That sets amateur radio apart from anything else >available to civilians, and may be an attractive >feature to new amateurs in this age of information >technology. Reply to a comment by : K5END on 2008-10-30 I'm not aware of any "inter-campus" network game that does not depend on the civilian telecom infrastructure. Lose your ISP or cell phone service, and you're out of the game. If the world's telephone and internet services stopped working (which could happen more easily than you might think) I'd still be able to talk to someone thousands of miles away, in real time. That sets amateur radio apart from anything else available to civilians, and may be an attractive feature to new amateurs in this age of information technology. Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-10-30 How about we query teenagers and younger people and find out why they are not interested in ham radio. Ask a teenage ham what interested them. There is your answer. Get it from the horses's mouth. Reply to a comment by : KB1QXR on 2008-10-30 A simple suggestion to attract youth- FIX YOUR CLUB'S WEBSITE. To today's youth (and by youth I'm counting anybody under 23), if something doesn't have a website it doesn't exist. If the website shows an 'upcoming event' that happened last month, that means nobody cares about it so no reason to bother. If the website is written in 1990s-era HTML and shows it, that means the club is a bunch of dumb kids or stupid old farts with no idea what they're doing. I'm not saying any of the above is true. I'm saying that after visiting the ARRL or other national site, a prospective ham is probably going to check out their local club for a VE test. And THAT is the real first impression the hobby needs to make. If that first impression suggests a good group of helpful people that aren't all 80 years old, you've hooked the prospective ham. If the first impression suggests a bunch of old geezers that either don't care or can't update their website, you've lost him. If the only pictures on the website are of 60+yr old people wearing those (lets be honest) dorky salvation army vests during an ARES test, you've lost pretty much everybody under 40 that will see it. If your club has ANY younger members (or even kids of members), use them in pictures as much as you can. It will greatly increase younger membership if they think other people their age (or even somewhat close) are hams. Web forums are better than email 'reflectors' because the archived conversations are easily available. Let anyone register an account but make sure the forum doesn't get spammed, a healthy forum is ALWAYS a sign of a healthy community. And there's nothing wrong with reaching out (as long as it's not pushing)-- public field day tents are great, as long as they have plenty of brochures and info. This works 10x better if the people manning the tent are within 10 age years of the visitor-- a 25 yr old will relate better to a 35 year old than he will to a 65 yr old. So if your club has young members, get them out on field day! And speaking of age, equipment matters too. A modern youth (again speaking 25 and under) is going to be far more impressed by a modern radio (ie Icom IC-7x00) than he will be with old vacuum tube gear. In short: old hams running old gear = old hobby. Young hams running modern gear = modern hobby. I'm again not saying this is true, but I am saying that it's the impression someone who just sees the tent (without talking or taking brocures) will get. Lastly (and most important)- when recruiting, you must abandon any notions of what ham radio 'should' be. If you think CW is the only real way to go, stay home. The beauty of this hobby is the wide variety of interests it can support, that includes everything from Extra-class homebrew CW users running QRP into long wire antennas, to Tech 'appliance operators' running HTs on the local repeater. Both are hams, and both earned their license. You want people to aspire to a higher license / learning more, not shove it down their throat saying they're a bad ham because they aren't interested in going farther. /rant | ||
| W5ROY | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| WOW!!!! Last weekend at at Bluegrass festival, I ran into some friends that play in a band (Triple L,Portales NM.). Dad and the three boys had just recently passed and received their license (Tech), and after congratulating them, I asked what about upgrading? HMMM they had not thought about that, as they were not told about the world of HF. I promptly went to the mobile, and showed them HF, and APRS. Boy did that spark some enthusiasm!! Just think, our friends can follow our bus around the country as we travel to other festivals. The lack of promoting other interests in amateur radio is an ever growing problem. I have now offered the general study guide to them at no cost, and they are fired up and ready to go. Soon we will have a few more generals on the air, and with a little elmering, they will be an asset to the amateur radio community. Find that new Tech. and inspire him or her to go farther and higher, and experience the world at their fingertips. I personally have brought in a half dozen or so, and help them at every chance I am given. If inspired, they will in turn bring others into the hobby. The secret is to make it fun and challenging at the same time. Good luck on your recruiting. 73 de W5ROY Roy Reply to a comment by : AC7ZL on 2008-10-30 K5END, you make some excellent points, though let me take your argument one step further. You talk about the value of ham radio as a hedge against the potential loss of the infrastructure that supports other communications (like cell phones, the internet, etc). There are plenty of Pollyannas out there who will tell you that this could never happen. However, I would point out that such a loss would not necessarily have to be physical in nature. It doesn't have to result from damage or destruction caused by warfare, EMP, or a hurricane. The loss may easily occur as the result of politics and legislation. Read this article: "Australia To Implement Mandatory Internet Censorship" http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24568137-2862,00.html If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere. There may come a time when the only free thoughts to be heard will be found on the ham bands. I only hope that hams will respect, honor, and appreciate what a gift that is, and use it accordingly. Pete AC7ZL ===================================== K5END said: >I'm not aware of any "inter-campus" network game that >does not depend on the civilian telecom >infrastructure. > >Lose your ISP or cell phone service, and you're out >of the game. > >If the world's telephone and internet services >stopped working (which could happen more easily than >you might think) I'd still be able to talk to someone >thousands of miles away, in real time. > >That sets amateur radio apart from anything else >available to civilians, and may be an attractive >feature to new amateurs in this age of information >technology. Reply to a comment by : K5END on 2008-10-30 I'm not aware of any "inter-campus" network game that does not depend on the civilian telecom infrastructure. Lose your ISP or cell phone service, and you're out of the game. If the world's telephone and internet services stopped working (which could happen more easily than you might think) I'd still be able to talk to someone thousands of miles away, in real time. That sets amateur radio apart from anything else available to civilians, and may be an attractive feature to new amateurs in this age of information technology. Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-10-30 How about we query teenagers and younger people and find out why they are not interested in ham radio. Ask a teenage ham what interested them. There is your answer. Get it from the horses's mouth. Reply to a comment by : KB1QXR on 2008-10-30 A simple suggestion to attract youth- FIX YOUR CLUB'S WEBSITE. To today's youth (and by youth I'm counting anybody under 23), if something doesn't have a website it doesn't exist. If the website shows an 'upcoming event' that happened last month, that means nobody cares about it so no reason to bother. If the website is written in 1990s-era HTML and shows it, that means the club is a bunch of dumb kids or stupid old farts with no idea what they're doing. I'm not saying any of the above is true. I'm saying that after visiting the ARRL or other national site, a prospective ham is probably going to check out their local club for a VE test. And THAT is the real first impression the hobby needs to make. If that first impression suggests a good group of helpful people that aren't all 80 years old, you've hooked the prospective ham. If the first impression suggests a bunch of old geezers that either don't care or can't update their website, you've lost him. If the only pictures on the website are of 60+yr old people wearing those (lets be honest) dorky salvation army vests during an ARES test, you've lost pretty much everybody under 40 that will see it. If your club has ANY younger members (or even kids of members), use them in pictures as much as you can. It will greatly increase younger membership if they think other people their age (or even somewhat close) are hams. Web forums are better than email 'reflectors' because the archived conversations are easily available. Let anyone register an account but make sure the forum doesn't get spammed, a healthy forum is ALWAYS a sign of a healthy community. And there's nothing wrong with reaching out (as long as it's not pushing)-- public field day tents are great, as long as they have plenty of brochures and info. This works 10x better if the people manning the tent are within 10 age years of the visitor-- a 25 yr old will relate better to a 35 year old than he will to a 65 yr old. So if your club has young members, get them out on field day! And speaking of age, equipment matters too. A modern youth (again speaking 25 and under) is going to be far more impressed by a modern radio (ie Icom IC-7x00) than he will be with old vacuum tube gear. In short: old hams running old gear = old hobby. Young hams running modern gear = modern hobby. I'm again not saying this is true, but I am saying that it's the impression someone who just sees the tent (without talking or taking brocures) will get. Lastly (and most important)- when recruiting, you must abandon any notions of what ham radio 'should' be. If you think CW is the only real way to go, stay home. The beauty of this hobby is the wide variety of interests it can support, that includes everything from Extra-class homebrew CW users running QRP into long wire antennas, to Tech 'appliance operators' running HTs on the local repeater. Both are hams, and both earned their license. You want people to aspire to a higher license / learning more, not shove it down their throat saying they're a bad ham because they aren't interested in going farther. /rant | ||
| K5END | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
"The loss may easily occur as the result of politics and legislation. There may come a time when the only free thoughts to be heard will be found on the ham bands" I agree. Depending on what happens next Tuesday on the ballot, this may come sooner than we imagine. Reply to a comment by : AC7ZL on 2008-10-30 K5END, you make some excellent points, though let me take your argument one step further. You talk about the value of ham radio as a hedge against the potential loss of the infrastructure that supports other communications (like cell phones, the internet, etc). There are plenty of Pollyannas out there who will tell you that this could never happen. However, I would point out that such a loss would not necessarily have to be physical in nature. It doesn't have to result from damage or destruction caused by warfare, EMP, or a hurricane. The loss may easily occur as the result of politics and legislation. Read this article: "Australia To Implement Mandatory Internet Censorship" http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24568137-2862,00.html If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere. There may come a time when the only free thoughts to be heard will be found on the ham bands. I only hope that hams will respect, honor, and appreciate what a gift that is, and use it accordingly. Pete AC7ZL ===================================== K5END said: >I'm not aware of any "inter-campus" network game that >does not depend on the civilian telecom >infrastructure. > >Lose your ISP or cell phone service, and you're out >of the game. > >If the world's telephone and internet services >stopped working (which could happen more easily than >you might think) I'd still be able to talk to someone >thousands of miles away, in real time. > >That sets amateur radio apart from anything else >available to civilians, and may be an attractive >feature to new amateurs in this age of information >technology. Reply to a comment by : K5END on 2008-10-30 I'm not aware of any "inter-campus" network game that does not depend on the civilian telecom infrastructure. Lose your ISP or cell phone service, and you're out of the game. If the world's telephone and internet services stopped working (which could happen more easily than you might think) I'd still be able to talk to someone thousands of miles away, in real time. That sets amateur radio apart from anything else available to civilians, and may be an attractive feature to new amateurs in this age of information technology. Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-10-30 How about we query teenagers and younger people and find out why they are not interested in ham radio. Ask a teenage ham what interested them. There is your answer. Get it from the horses's mouth. Reply to a comment by : KB1QXR on 2008-10-30 A simple suggestion to attract youth- FIX YOUR CLUB'S WEBSITE. To today's youth (and by youth I'm counting anybody under 23), if something doesn't have a website it doesn't exist. If the website shows an 'upcoming event' that happened last month, that means nobody cares about it so no reason to bother. If the website is written in 1990s-era HTML and shows it, that means the club is a bunch of dumb kids or stupid old farts with no idea what they're doing. I'm not saying any of the above is true. I'm saying that after visiting the ARRL or other national site, a prospective ham is probably going to check out their local club for a VE test. And THAT is the real first impression the hobby needs to make. If that first impression suggests a good group of helpful people that aren't all 80 years old, you've hooked the prospective ham. If the first impression suggests a bunch of old geezers that either don't care or can't update their website, you've lost him. If the only pictures on the website are of 60+yr old people wearing those (lets be honest) dorky salvation army vests during an ARES test, you've lost pretty much everybody under 40 that will see it. If your club has ANY younger members (or even kids of members), use them in pictures as much as you can. It will greatly increase younger membership if they think other people their age (or even somewhat close) are hams. Web forums are better than email 'reflectors' because the archived conversations are easily available. Let anyone register an account but make sure the forum doesn't get spammed, a healthy forum is ALWAYS a sign of a healthy community. And there's nothing wrong with reaching out (as long as it's not pushing)-- public field day tents are great, as long as they have plenty of brochures and info. This works 10x better if the people manning the tent are within 10 age years of the visitor-- a 25 yr old will relate better to a 35 year old than he will to a 65 yr old. So if your club has young members, get them out on field day! And speaking of age, equipment matters too. A modern youth (again speaking 25 and under) is going to be far more impressed by a modern radio (ie Icom IC-7x00) than he will be with old vacuum tube gear. In short: old hams running old gear = old hobby. Young hams running modern gear = modern hobby. I'm again not saying this is true, but I am saying that it's the impression someone who just sees the tent (without talking or taking brocures) will get. Lastly (and most important)- when recruiting, you must abandon any notions of what ham radio 'should' be. If you think CW is the only real way to go, stay home. The beauty of this hobby is the wide variety of interests it can support, that includes everything from Extra-class homebrew CW users running QRP into long wire antennas, to Tech 'appliance operators' running HTs on the local repeater. Both are hams, and both earned their license. You want people to aspire to a higher license / learning more, not shove it down their throat saying they're a bad ham because they aren't interested in going farther. /rant | ||
| AC7ZL | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
K5END, you make some excellent points, though let me take your argument one step further. You talk about the value of ham radio as a hedge against the potential loss of the infrastructure that supports other communications (like cell phones, the internet, etc). There are plenty of Pollyannas out there who will tell you that this could never happen. However, I would point out that such a loss would not necessarily have to be physical in nature. It doesn't have to result from damage or destruction caused by warfare, EMP, or a hurricane. The loss may easily occur as the result of politics and legislation. Read this article: "Australia To Implement Mandatory Internet Censorship" http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24568137-2862,00.html If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere. There may come a time when the only free thoughts to be heard will be found on the ham bands. I only hope that hams will respect, honor, and appreciate what a gift that is, and use it accordingly. Pete AC7ZL ===================================== K5END said: >I'm not aware of any "inter-campus" network game that >does not depend on the civilian telecom >infrastructure. > >Lose your ISP or cell phone service, and you're out >of the game. > >If the world's telephone and internet services >stopped working (which could happen more easily than >you might think) I'd still be able to talk to someone >thousands of miles away, in real time. > >That sets amateur radio apart from anything else >available to civilians, and may be an attractive >feature to new amateurs in this age of information >technology. Reply to a comment by : K5END on 2008-10-30 I'm not aware of any "inter-campus" network game that does not depend on the civilian telecom infrastructure. Lose your ISP or cell phone service, and you're out of the game. If the world's telephone and internet services stopped working (which could happen more easily than you might think) I'd still be able to talk to someone thousands of miles away, in real time. That sets amateur radio apart from anything else available to civilians, and may be an attractive feature to new amateurs in this age of information technology. Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-10-30 How about we query teenagers and younger people and find out why they are not interested in ham radio. Ask a teenage ham what interested them. There is your answer. Get it from the horses's mouth. Reply to a comment by : KB1QXR on 2008-10-30 A simple suggestion to attract youth- FIX YOUR CLUB'S WEBSITE. To today's youth (and by youth I'm counting anybody under 23), if something doesn't have a website it doesn't exist. If the website shows an 'upcoming event' that happened last month, that means nobody cares about it so no reason to bother. If the website is written in 1990s-era HTML and shows it, that means the club is a bunch of dumb kids or stupid old farts with no idea what they're doing. I'm not saying any of the above is true. I'm saying that after visiting the ARRL or other national site, a prospective ham is probably going to check out their local club for a VE test. And THAT is the real first impression the hobby needs to make. If that first impression suggests a good group of helpful people that aren't all 80 years old, you've hooked the prospective ham. If the first impression suggests a bunch of old geezers that either don't care or can't update their website, you've lost him. If the only pictures on the website are of 60+yr old people wearing those (lets be honest) dorky salvation army vests during an ARES test, you've lost pretty much everybody under 40 that will see it. If your club has ANY younger members (or even kids of members), use them in pictures as much as you can. It will greatly increase younger membership if they think other people their age (or even somewhat close) are hams. Web forums are better than email 'reflectors' because the archived conversations are easily available. Let anyone register an account but make sure the forum doesn't get spammed, a healthy forum is ALWAYS a sign of a healthy community. And there's nothing wrong with reaching out (as long as it's not pushing)-- public field day tents are great, as long as they have plenty of brochures and info. This works 10x better if the people manning the tent are within 10 age years of the visitor-- a 25 yr old will relate better to a 35 year old than he will to a 65 yr old. So if your club has young members, get them out on field day! And speaking of age, equipment matters too. A modern youth (again speaking 25 and under) is going to be far more impressed by a modern radio (ie Icom IC-7x00) than he will be with old vacuum tube gear. In short: old hams running old gear = old hobby. Young hams running modern gear = modern hobby. I'm again not saying this is true, but I am saying that it's the impression someone who just sees the tent (without talking or taking brocures) will get. Lastly (and most important)- when recruiting, you must abandon any notions of what ham radio 'should' be. If you think CW is the only real way to go, stay home. The beauty of this hobby is the wide variety of interests it can support, that includes everything from Extra-class homebrew CW users running QRP into long wire antennas, to Tech 'appliance operators' running HTs on the local repeater. Both are hams, and both earned their license. You want people to aspire to a higher license / learning more, not shove it down their throat saying they're a bad ham because they aren't interested in going farther. /rant | ||
| K0RGR | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| I think we have a lot of 'recruitment' functions underway, and they are all good. But I think there is only a small, fixed percentage of people who "get it" where radio is concerned. People who are fascinated enough by radio to want to 'play' with it are rare. We need to focus on finding them, and retaining them once we get them in the hobby. We need to ensure that ham radio is prominently featured in the places where 'radio nerds' might hang out. This includes places where sci fi is big. Once we have interest, we need to be sure that newbies get on the air, preferably on HF. | ||
| K4LD | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| The DXing and Contesting aspect is what brought me into it. I've never found the words to get other people interested in Amateur Radio. Michael Almeter W4MJA 16 years old Know code CW op! Reply to a comment by : K6JPA on 2008-10-30 My personal interest in amateur radio came from the experimental kits that Radio Shack used to sell (remember the "build your own electronic project" boards with the spring connectors at each resistor, etc.?) Each Holiday season, I wanted a bigger and better kit. I learned basic electronic theory from these, and they eventially sparked an interest in communications equipment. Having a neighbor slightly older than me that was into SWL set the hook. From that point, two-way communications naturally followed. It's a shame that there are such few advertising pitches showing the wonders of basic electronics and the magic of listening to foreign broadcasts and amateur bands targeted at our youth. Sometimes, when that spark of curiousity is fueled in a young mind, it can kindle a life-long interest. | ||
| N6AJR | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Get them startd by loaning them Tom Swift books to read, then they can get their imaginations working and find interests in ham radio to support that. ( weird idea??? its what got me started back in 1961) so yea, they do have to have an interest in since type stuff and this will fit in. Reply to a comment by : K3NRX on 2008-10-30 Ya know, I am getting real tired of articles like this. If a kid is interested in ham radio, that interest will come from within. If not, then LET IT GO! Some of you guys need to get over the fact that this is pretty much an adult hobby. That's NOT to say that young people shouldn't get into it, but the average age of the average ham is 55 years old. So what? Honestly. Ham Radio, the only hobby on the face of the earth that has been on life support for 85 friggin years. Got to attract youth. Got to get the kids involved or we're gonna die! Gloom and doom! Yet the bloody bands are always friggin crowded every weekend with contesters, and DX Pile Ups are more ferocious then ever. Yeah, the hobby is really dying. You guys really need to find some other material to write about. and STOP WITH THE GLOOM AND DOOM!!!! Vince P KA3NRX P.S. I got my license when I was 19 back in 1985. My friend Seth got his license back in 1978 when he 13. Guys like us are rare. WHO CARES??? Reply to a comment by : K8QV on 2008-10-30 The way to interest youth in radio is to make it "not" radio. This generation wants, and is used to, instant, cheap, reliable communication via cell phone and Internet. They are not experimenters or scientifically curious, or awed in the least that you can send dits and dahs to another country. They already have video chats around the globe. They text message while watching an HDTV or playing a world-wide interactive video game with lifelike graphics. Ham radio holds no interest for the majority of the current generation. They already have better toys. We might as well try to interest them in the fine art of making buggy whips. Reply to a comment by : KF4HR on 2008-10-30 Well, as the old song goes, "Times they are a changin'". Unfortunately, at least in my opinion, amateur radio isn't keeping up. I was first licensed in 1967; the days before computers, cell phones, and the internet. For me, having the ability to build an amateur station that could communicate across short or long distances (even in CW) was one of the main driving forces behind obtaining my license. Now-a-days, for the young, that same driving force isn't there. Internet and cell phone technology have taken care of that. And while PSK, RTTY, Hell, WSJT, and other digital modes are interesting to some, let's face it, there's nothing earth shaking about current communications modes that would grab the attention of the young. Hell, most kids can text-message anyone in the country in seconds. Or for that matter, just place a call. Yep, the Plug & Play, easy communications era has arrived, and its here to stay. So as the author mentioned, what does amateur radio have to offer the young? Or maybe a better question might be, what can we do in this hobby to grab the attention of the young? (Or for that matter, the not so young.) First of all, I believe amateur radio is never going to capture the vast majority young people. It didn't happen when I was a kid, and it certainly isn't going to happen today, and it's easy to prove. Just compare the membership numbers of any high school amateur radio club with overall population of the school and you'll see that the amateur radio curious, are very much in the minority. Then throw in the fact that the young would need to face another "test" to get their ham license (another test is probably one of the last things a school kid wants to hear), and most young kids will instantly wonder why they should pursue getting an amateur license. And it's a good question. But on the flip side of the coin, I think it's safe to assume there will always be a smaller number of young kids that are technically curious and will enjoy the challenges that this hobby can bring. Personally I think there are (at least) two amateur avenues that have the ability to capture the minds of the young (and old), and promote the hobby. The first is improved state-to-state and country-to-country linking of higher frequency communications. VHF/UHF communications is by far one of the most popular means of communications among most hams. Nearly 100% of the new hams buy this type of equipment as soon as they become licensed. We have thousands of FM repeaters across the country, each with its own little capture area, but that's it. Long distance linking of repeaters has been accomplished partially through Echo-Link and D-Star but this technology needs to be vastly improved and expanded. State-to-state or country-to-country communications needs to become as commonplace and as straight forward as internet communications is today, and graphic technology via GPS needs to be rolled into the mix as well. Second; Satellite communications. Space communications has the ability to fascinate the young and old alike. Many of us that have been around for awhile remember the days of the long range satellites; AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. These birds, while not perfect, were all a great step in technology and provided some great long range communications. Unfortunately these long range birds are all gone now. Yes, there's long range satellite projects on the drawing board, (for example the Eagle project), but for the time being, I think it's safe to say the long range satellite continuity ball has been dropped. What is needed is a long range, high powered satellite, with wide passbands so many can participate at the same time. Or better yet - multiple strategically placed satellites with long range capability which can provide 24/7 communications, and designed around off-the-shelf communications equipment that the average ham can afford to purchase. This could easily fascinate and energize a new wave of amateurs, young and old alike, into our hobby, and create more financial support for future satellite programs. Unfortunately satellite communications rely exclusively on donations and the entire process of getting birds into space is a very slow, expensive process. To make matters worse, bickering and auguing amongst the AMSAT key players doesn't help the cause either. In any case, I would encourage any of you that have an interest in amateur satellite communications, and/or have supported AMSAT in the past, to continue to do so. I think our amateur community has the will, knowledge, technology, and tools to make this hobby exciting to the young, but it'll take a lot of planning and work to make it happen. My .02, KF4HR Reply to a comment by : N0BOF on 2008-10-30 Thanks for the article. I don't post much here but do alot of reading. I have gotten so much great advice and answers from you fellow hams and I'm in awe of the skills that some of you have. I would give my right arm (ok maybe pinky)to be as technically minded, cw skilled ect. as alot of you here. I do feel I have alot to offer on this subject being a school Police Officer and Juvenile Officer for the last 15 years. I talk with all types everyday, the smart kids, the gang members, the jocks, no different than when we were young. What teacher do you remember most? The one who made learning fun and exciting. That is what I have been trying to do with radio and wireless technology in general. As stated earlier, I have received much help from you guys here as well as my local hams, some of the equipment vendors, and the ARRL. I was lucky enough to attend the Teachers Institute this summer and have a head full of fun activities to implement. I have teamed up with our school science club, our alternative school, even our juvenile probation officers are on board. The key is to make it FUN and keep their attention. My goal is to get kids licensed if thats what they want but first show them what radio all has to offer. One more kid in the classroom behind the radio means one less kid I'm chasing out on the street. I do have some success stories, but thats for another day. Thanks for reading and thanks for all the help. Flame away. Bob | ||
| K6JPA | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| My personal interest in amateur radio came from the experimental kits that Radio Shack used to sell (remember the "build your own electronic project" boards with the spring connectors at each resistor, etc.?) Each Holiday season, I wanted a bigger and better kit. I learned basic electronic theory from these, and they eventially sparked an interest in communications equipment. Having a neighbor slightly older than me that was into SWL set the hook. From that point, two-way communications naturally followed. It's a shame that there are such few advertising pitches showing the wonders of basic electronics and the magic of listening to foreign broadcasts and amateur bands targeted at our youth. Sometimes, when that spark of curiousity is fueled in a young mind, it can kindle a life-long interest. | ||
| KJ4AGA | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Well truthfully if it wasn't for joining the volunteer fire department where I live I wouldn't have had the little push I needed to get into ham radio. I joined and there was maybe ten guys that were hams and after being in it for just a short time I was hooked. I even took years of electronics classes in high school, trade school, and college but never was ham radio talked about. We should push for at least it being mentioned in electronics classes. Reply to a comment by : K9AP on 2008-10-30 My 16 yr old son has absolutly no interest in ham radio. His free time is spent on his X Box playing video games. Most of them are military style games in an interactive team mode. He can use his voice headset to communicate with team members, who could be located anywhere. When he's not on the Xbox, he's out with friends paintballing. I persuaded him to attend a ham fest with me. He agreed so he could get the driving hours he needs for his permit/license requirements. I asked him how he liked it. He said some of the people there looked like "serial killers" (maybe that puts me in that category, too?)and was anxious to leave. Reply to a comment by : NN4RH on 2008-10-30 << Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. >> Maybe the video game World of Warcraft could introduce some ARES ham characters with HTs to provide emergency communications as the flesh-eating zombie plague ( http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,444505,00.html )takes over everything. Maybe that would entice teenagers to Google "ham radio" and that will take them to the ARRL's "We Do That" web site, THEN they'll be so excited that they'll drop everything else, get a ham license, put up a G5RV and buy an FT-857, and beg us to "Elmer" them. Or not. Reply to a comment by : NV2A on 2008-10-30 We offer comradeship with other people of a similar interest. When I was first licensed in 1964, that same topic was the big question at the Hayward Amateur Radio Club meetings in California when I was WV6ZXU. They all thought ham radio was on it's last legs.....and then this damn SSB mode was invading it at the same time! Some day we might see kids playing video-games over UHF radio. | ||
| KB2DHG | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| It is so unfortunate that the youth of today are not concerned or interested in Science and Technology. When I try to intice a younger person to get interested in Amateur Radio I get the same responce... What is so cool about that? I can talk to people all over the world too on my cell phone or computer. They are not interested in the physics of it, the science and tecnical aspect of how we acheive our communication around the world. The real problem is contained right here in the United States. I am finding many young foreign hams. Other countries instill the importance of the arts and sceiences. We don't I also find that these kids don't want to work for anything... They are not up to a challenge. They all want it now and with no hassels. WHAT tell them thay have to study for a test? Tell them they have to try to errect an antenna? I am a VE and give the exam once a month. Most of the new commers to this hobby are on an avarage of 40 years old. THE VERY FEW children that come in to take the test are either children of a HAM or a kid from a non American background. We need to show how much fun and rewarding this hobby is by getting out in the public eye and getting as much media exposure as possable. People like riding band wagons....SHOW HAM RADIO IN TV PROGRAMS AND MOVIES! I can't tell you how many times when I have a visitor over to my home and they see my shack, that they never even heard of ham radio! YOUNG AND OLD ALIKE! We are just not out there and that my friends is why I think that this hobby (AND I HOPE I AM DEAD WRONG) will die with us! | ||
| K1BXI | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Norm........do we have some sort of ESP between us! Looks like we were thinking the same thing at the same time. Reply to a comment by : K1BXI on 2008-10-30 You don't suppose it's because of a lack of interest in the sciences in todays educational system. Unless one is interested in the science of why radio works there seems little reason for a young person to pursue this hobby I believe. To them, there are many better ways to communicate if communicating is the only reason we give for obtaining an amateur license. I'm not sure how we instill that urge to explore the reasons of how and why things work in this universe, perhaps your born with it. But there seems to be less of it (at least in the US) at a time when the means of exploring are more than ever. There's a lot of exploring left to do and radio will be a part of it. John Reply to a comment by : K5END on 2008-10-30 Meant to include... On the other hand, based on what I see in most kids today, I'd prefer to not have them messing up the bands. Be careful what you ask for. Reply to a comment by : K5END on 2008-10-30 I'm not aware of any "inter-campus" network game that does not depend on the civilian telecom infrastructure. Lose your ISP or cell phone service, and you're out of the game. If the world's telephone and internet services stopped working (which could happen more easily than you might think) I'd still be able to talk to someone thousands of miles away, in real time. That sets amateur radio apart from anything else available to civilians, and may be an attractive feature to new amateurs in this age of information technology. Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-10-30 How about we query teenagers and younger people and find out why they are not interested in ham radio. Ask a teenage ham what interested them. There is your answer. Get it from the horses's mouth. Reply to a comment by : KB1QXR on 2008-10-30 A simple suggestion to attract youth- FIX YOUR CLUB'S WEBSITE. To today's youth (and by youth I'm counting anybody under 23), if something doesn't have a website it doesn't exist. If the website shows an 'upcoming event' that happened last month, that means nobody cares about it so no reason to bother. If the website is written in 1990s-era HTML and shows it, that means the club is a bunch of dumb kids or stupid old farts with no idea what they're doing. I'm not saying any of the above is true. I'm saying that after visiting the ARRL or other national site, a prospective ham is probably going to check out their local club for a VE test. And THAT is the real first impression the hobby needs to make. If that first impression suggests a good group of helpful people that aren't all 80 years old, you've hooked the prospective ham. If the first impression suggests a bunch of old geezers that either don't care or can't update their website, you've lost him. If the only pictures on the website are of 60+yr old people wearing those (lets be honest) dorky salvation army vests during an ARES test, you've lost pretty much everybody under 40 that will see it. If your club has ANY younger members (or even kids of members), use them in pictures as much as you can. It will greatly increase younger membership if they think other people their age (or even somewhat close) are hams. Web forums are better than email 'reflectors' because the archived conversations are easily available. Let anyone register an account but make sure the forum doesn't get spammed, a healthy forum is ALWAYS a sign of a healthy community. And there's nothing wrong with reaching out (as long as it's not pushing)-- public field day tents are great, as long as they have plenty of brochures and info. This works 10x better if the people manning the tent are within 10 age years of the visitor-- a 25 yr old will relate better to a 35 year old than he will to a 65 yr old. So if your club has young members, get them out on field day! And speaking of age, equipment matters too. A modern youth (again speaking 25 and under) is going to be far more impressed by a modern radio (ie Icom IC-7x00) than he will be with old vacuum tube gear. In short: old hams running old gear = old hobby. Young hams running modern gear = modern hobby. I'm again not saying this is true, but I am saying that it's the impression someone who just sees the tent (without talking or taking brocures) will get. Lastly (and most important)- when recruiting, you must abandon any notions of what ham radio 'should' be. If you think CW is the only real way to go, stay home. The beauty of this hobby is the wide variety of interests it can support, that includes everything from Extra-class homebrew CW users running QRP into long wire antennas, to Tech 'appliance operators' running HTs on the local repeater. Both are hams, and both earned their license. You want people to aspire to a higher license / learning more, not shove it down their throat saying they're a bad ham because they aren't interested in going farther. /rant | ||
| K1BXI | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| You don't suppose it's because of a lack of interest in the sciences in todays educational system. Unless one is interested in the science of why radio works there seems little reason for a young person to pursue this hobby I believe. To them, there are many better ways to communicate if communicating is the only reason we give for obtaining an amateur license. I'm not sure how we instill that urge to explore the reasons of how and why things work in this universe, perhaps your born with it. But there seems to be less of it (at least in the US) at a time when the means of exploring are more than ever. There's a lot of exploring left to do and radio will be a part of it. John Reply to a comment by : K5END on 2008-10-30 Meant to include... On the other hand, based on what I see in most kids today, I'd prefer to not have them messing up the bands. Be careful what you ask for. Reply to a comment by : K5END on 2008-10-30 I'm not aware of any "inter-campus" network game that does not depend on the civilian telecom infrastructure. Lose your ISP or cell phone service, and you're out of the game. If the world's telephone and internet services stopped working (which could happen more easily than you might think) I'd still be able to talk to someone thousands of miles away, in real time. That sets amateur radio apart from anything else available to civilians, and may be an attractive feature to new amateurs in this age of information technology. Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-10-30 How about we query teenagers and younger people and find out why they are not interested in ham radio. Ask a teenage ham what interested them. There is your answer. Get it from the horses's mouth. Reply to a comment by : KB1QXR on 2008-10-30 A simple suggestion to attract youth- FIX YOUR CLUB'S WEBSITE. To today's youth (and by youth I'm counting anybody under 23), if something doesn't have a website it doesn't exist. If the website shows an 'upcoming event' that happened last month, that means nobody cares about it so no reason to bother. If the website is written in 1990s-era HTML and shows it, that means the club is a bunch of dumb kids or stupid old farts with no idea what they're doing. I'm not saying any of the above is true. I'm saying that after visiting the ARRL or other national site, a prospective ham is probably going to check out their local club for a VE test. And THAT is the real first impression the hobby needs to make. If that first impression suggests a good group of helpful people that aren't all 80 years old, you've hooked the prospective ham. If the first impression suggests a bunch of old geezers that either don't care or can't update their website, you've lost him. If the only pictures on the website are of 60+yr old people wearing those (lets be honest) dorky salvation army vests during an ARES test, you've lost pretty much everybody under 40 that will see it. If your club has ANY younger members (or even kids of members), use them in pictures as much as you can. It will greatly increase younger membership if they think other people their age (or even somewhat close) are hams. Web forums are better than email 'reflectors' because the archived conversations are easily available. Let anyone register an account but make sure the forum doesn't get spammed, a healthy forum is ALWAYS a sign of a healthy community. And there's nothing wrong with reaching out (as long as it's not pushing)-- public field day tents are great, as long as they have plenty of brochures and info. This works 10x better if the people manning the tent are within 10 age years of the visitor-- a 25 yr old will relate better to a 35 year old than he will to a 65 yr old. So if your club has young members, get them out on field day! And speaking of age, equipment matters too. A modern youth (again speaking 25 and under) is going to be far more impressed by a modern radio (ie Icom IC-7x00) than he will be with old vacuum tube gear. In short: old hams running old gear = old hobby. Young hams running modern gear = modern hobby. I'm again not saying this is true, but I am saying that it's the impression someone who just sees the tent (without talking or taking brocures) will get. Lastly (and most important)- when recruiting, you must abandon any notions of what ham radio 'should' be. If you think CW is the only real way to go, stay home. The beauty of this hobby is the wide variety of interests it can support, that includes everything from Extra-class homebrew CW users running QRP into long wire antennas, to Tech 'appliance operators' running HTs on the local repeater. Both are hams, and both earned their license. You want people to aspire to a higher license / learning more, not shove it down their throat saying they're a bad ham because they aren't interested in going farther. /rant | ||
| W1ITT | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Forty years ago I was the only Amateur in my high school, and at the University there might have been ten of us on campus. I got interested because I was interested in many things scientific, and amateur radio just struck a chord for me. And while it does no harm to expose young people to amateur radio (and many other subjects that may lead them to further education) I doubt that drafting kids into the hobby is the solution. The baby boomers are pretty much done having their families, and countless thousands of sons and daughters have been exposed to ham radio right at home, yet few have followed in (mostly) Dad's footsteps and bitten the hook. And I suspect that many of those few who took a license exam to please the old man may have lost interest as time and other demands took them away. It's unfortunate that so few of the latest generation of kids have developed interest and knowledge in things electromagnetic. I suspect the next generation of wireless connectivity will be conceived not in Silicon Valley, but somewhere in India or China. The few young squirts in the States who know their way around rf will not want for employment. | ||
| KN4LF | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| I have always felt it a mistake to put such an emphasis on bringing youth into the hobby. We should be looking for middle aged and older people that have recently retired and have some $$$ to burn. My two sons are 30 and 25 and I introduced them to ham radio when they were in their teens. After lot's of listening and making a few QSO's their impression of the hobby was that of a group of grouchy, dysfunctional, sociopaths. They said that they got see people like that every day in school and at the local burger joint. What could I say to that?! 73, Thomas F. Giella www.kn4lf.com | ||
| K6LHA | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| W3OZ posted on October 30, 2008: "I got into ham radio as a kid. That was then, now is now. There were no computers and little TV." I got into professional HF radio at age 21, courtesy of the US Army. That was a very long ago 'then' with NO satellites of any kind lofted and semi-conductors relegated to just germanium and silicon diodes and stinky selenium rectifier stacks. W3QZ: "Amateur radio WAS the latest and greatest of technology then." In all fairness, I would have to say a definite NO based on what was going on in ALL radio. Moving to southern California aerospace industry in 1956 I became acquainted with more hams in 6-land than I had in my native 9-land. 'Old-timer' hams (relatively speaking) of then were actively rationalizing their hobby by saying "we are advancing the state of the art in radio." Nonsense to me, having worked IN 24/7 HF comms for three years...but I had to be polite to my elders (of then) and had to stop explaining what I'd personally experienced. Most of those hams had no comparable experience other than their own single-operator amateur station, never venturing beyond HF, using technology based on 1930s vacuum tube architecture. I was then working IN aerospace from VHF and up in frequency using technology (most of it still using vacuum tubes) that would have left the average ham baffled in wonderment. ............... W3QZ: "Why the heck are we so concerned with getting young people in the hobby, we have a big pool of folks that are older who we should be marketing into our hobby." Big, big disagreement there. ARRL is finally, after all these many years of general technological stratification (and perhaps mummification), is beginning to see the light in terms of license numbers and How It Looks To Government. They HAVE been, continually, "marketing that older generation." This morning of the 30th of October 2008 the ARRL license stats page shows the following: 661,182 total single-operator licenses still in their 10-year license term. Of those, 309,407 are Technician class or 46.8 percent of the total. The no-code-test Technician class has existed for only 17 years yet it has become, by far, the LARGEST class in US amateur radio. Without any demographic proof whatsoever, it would still be safe to say that the average age of Technician class licensees is UNDER 40. Is it still logical to assume that all of those younger people are 'excited' over continual repetition of operating standards and practices of the 1930s or even 1950s? I don't think so. Think about numbers alone. The Federal government does that and the FCC regulates amateur radio, not a suburb of Hartford, Connecticutt. Had there been NO no-code-test Technician class, the number of amateur radio licensees would be around HALF of what they are today. That's just from normal human attrition of the boomer generation. Before the fateful date of 23 February 2007 the licensee numbers had been SHRINKING at a rate of about 3K per year after the peak on July 2, 2003...even as the Technician class had been actively increasing in numbers all that while. [see also www.hamdata.com for newcomers v. expirations and total licenses granted (including those in grace periods)] In the last two years the NEWCOMERS are just barely keeping the US amateur radio license numbers up by very slightly overcoming the expirations. The 'amateur community' (whatever that is) NEEDS MORE NEWCOMERS. Without those newcomers, the US ham numbers will keep on shrinking until the 'amateur community' becomes too small to affect FCC decisions in regards to favoring amateur regulations. Legislators will see that, too. The ARRL needs income to keep itself together. That's why they wisely organized that big PUBLISHING HOUSE they have. It MUST sell those publishing products to stay alive. Membership fees only serve to keep the staff of QST working, pay for printing and mailing costs. Membership numbers are given out to prospective ad space buyers and income from such ad space sales can be considerable. Outside of showing some pictures of (member) offspring or ham scholarship winners, the pages of QST have been largely devoid of information for the Technician class. Even if that class is approaching HALF of all active licensees, the ARRL hasn't really seemed to care about them. That's strange to me. It doesn't make good marketing sense to ignore nearly half of a potential income group. ARRL has a virtual monopoly on publications specifically for the radio amateur. Its only real competition now is CQ and some (few) columns in Popular Communications. The Internet is the biggest competitor for amateur radio information dissemination, in forums such as this and over on QRZ.com and dozens of others. But, all of these websites offer the usual bombardment of advertising that all of us see for everything else in life. It is all well and good to make happy for a niche group of a niche group of radio hobbyists. But, if those niches have fewer and fewer numbers, Legislators and Commissioners just aren't going to listen to their requests. Idealism in keeping the standards and practices of the 1950s forever isn't going to cut it nor make those idealists more noble than the rest of the population. 73, Len AF6AY Reply to a comment by : W3OZ on 2008-10-30 I got into ham radio as a kid. That was then, now is now. There were no computers and little TV. Amateur radio WAS the latest and greatest of technology then. I don’t want any of my grandkids sitting on their butts doing radio. I want them active in sports, and physical activities. They have enough sedimentary activities they must do like study so they can compete with others in school. When they are old and broken down like me they can have plenty of time for ham radio. Why the heck are we so concerned with getting young people in the hobby, we have a big pool of folks that are older who we should be marketing into our hobby. | ||
| K5END | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| Meant to include... On the other hand, based on what I see in most kids today, I'd prefer to not have them messing up the bands. Be careful what you ask for. Reply to a comment by : K5END on 2008-10-30 I'm not aware of any "inter-campus" network game that does not depend on the civilian telecom infrastructure. Lose your ISP or cell phone service, and you're out of the game. If the world's telephone and internet services stopped working (which could happen more easily than you might think) I'd still be able to talk to someone thousands of miles away, in real time. That sets amateur radio apart from anything else available to civilians, and may be an attractive feature to new amateurs in this age of information technology. Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-10-30 How about we query teenagers and younger people and find out why they are not interested in ham radio. Ask a teenage ham what interested them. There is your answer. Get it from the horses's mouth. Reply to a comment by : KB1QXR on 2008-10-30 A simple suggestion to attract youth- FIX YOUR CLUB'S WEBSITE. To today's youth (and by youth I'm counting anybody under 23), if something doesn't have a website it doesn't exist. If the website shows an 'upcoming event' that happened last month, that means nobody cares about it so no reason to bother. If the website is written in 1990s-era HTML and shows it, that means the club is a bunch of dumb kids or stupid old farts with no idea what they're doing. I'm not saying any of the above is true. I'm saying that after visiting the ARRL or other national site, a prospective ham is probably going to check out their local club for a VE test. And THAT is the real first impression the hobby needs to make. If that first impression suggests a good group of helpful people that aren't all 80 years old, you've hooked the prospective ham. If the first impression suggests a bunch of old geezers that either don't care or can't update their website, you've lost him. If the only pictures on the website are of 60+yr old people wearing those (lets be honest) dorky salvation army vests during an ARES test, you've lost pretty much everybody under 40 that will see it. If your club has ANY younger members (or even kids of members), use them in pictures as much as you can. It will greatly increase younger membership if they think other people their age (or even somewhat close) are hams. Web forums are better than email 'reflectors' because the archived conversations are easily available. Let anyone register an account but make sure the forum doesn't get spammed, a healthy forum is ALWAYS a sign of a healthy community. And there's nothing wrong with reaching out (as long as it's not pushing)-- public field day tents are great, as long as they have plenty of brochures and info. This works 10x better if the people manning the tent are within 10 age years of the visitor-- a 25 yr old will relate better to a 35 year old than he will to a 65 yr old. So if your club has young members, get them out on field day! And speaking of age, equipment matters too. A modern youth (again speaking 25 and under) is going to be far more impressed by a modern radio (ie Icom IC-7x00) than he will be with old vacuum tube gear. In short: old hams running old gear = old hobby. Young hams running modern gear = modern hobby. I'm again not saying this is true, but I am saying that it's the impression someone who just sees the tent (without talking or taking brocures) will get. Lastly (and most important)- when recruiting, you must abandon any notions of what ham radio 'should' be. If you think CW is the only real way to go, stay home. The beauty of this hobby is the wide variety of interests it can support, that includes everything from Extra-class homebrew CW users running QRP into long wire antennas, to Tech 'appliance operators' running HTs on the local repeater. Both are hams, and both earned their license. You want people to aspire to a higher license / learning more, not shove it down their throat saying they're a bad ham because they aren't interested in going farther. /rant | ||
| K5END | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| I'm not aware of any "inter-campus" network game that does not depend on the civilian telecom infrastructure. Lose your ISP or cell phone service, and you're out of the game. If the world's telephone and internet services stopped working (which could happen more easily than you might think) I'd still be able to talk to someone thousands of miles away, in real time. That sets amateur radio apart from anything else available to civilians, and may be an attractive feature to new amateurs in this age of information technology. Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-10-30 How about we query teenagers and younger people and find out why they are not interested in ham radio. Ask a teenage ham what interested them. There is your answer. Get it from the horses's mouth. Reply to a comment by : KB1QXR on 2008-10-30 A simple suggestion to attract youth- FIX YOUR CLUB'S WEBSITE. To today's youth (and by youth I'm counting anybody under 23), if something doesn't have a website it doesn't exist. If the website shows an 'upcoming event' that happened last month, that means nobody cares about it so no reason to bother. If the website is written in 1990s-era HTML and shows it, that means the club is a bunch of dumb kids or stupid old farts with no idea what they're doing. I'm not saying any of the above is true. I'm saying that after visiting the ARRL or other national site, a prospective ham is probably going to check out their local club for a VE test. And THAT is the real first impression the hobby needs to make. If that first impression suggests a good group of helpful people that aren't all 80 years old, you've hooked the prospective ham. If the first impression suggests a bunch of old geezers that either don't care or can't update their website, you've lost him. If the only pictures on the website are of 60+yr old people wearing those (lets be honest) dorky salvation army vests during an ARES test, you've lost pretty much everybody under 40 that will see it. If your club has ANY younger members (or even kids of members), use them in pictures as much as you can. It will greatly increase younger membership if they think other people their age (or even somewhat close) are hams. Web forums are better than email 'reflectors' because the archived conversations are easily available. Let anyone register an account but make sure the forum doesn't get spammed, a healthy forum is ALWAYS a sign of a healthy community. And there's nothing wrong with reaching out (as long as it's not pushing)-- public field day tents are great, as long as they have plenty of brochures and info. This works 10x better if the people manning the tent are within 10 age years of the visitor-- a 25 yr old will relate better to a 35 year old than he will to a 65 yr old. So if your club has young members, get them out on field day! And speaking of age, equipment matters too. A modern youth (again speaking 25 and under) is going to be far more impressed by a modern radio (ie Icom IC-7x00) than he will be with old vacuum tube gear. In short: old hams running old gear = old hobby. Young hams running modern gear = modern hobby. I'm again not saying this is true, but I am saying that it's the impression someone who just sees the tent (without talking or taking brocures) will get. Lastly (and most important)- when recruiting, you must abandon any notions of what ham radio 'should' be. If you think CW is the only real way to go, stay home. The beauty of this hobby is the wide variety of interests it can support, that includes everything from Extra-class homebrew CW users running QRP into long wire antennas, to Tech 'appliance operators' running HTs on the local repeater. Both are hams, and both earned their license. You want people to aspire to a higher license / learning more, not shove it down their throat saying they're a bad ham because they aren't interested in going farther. /rant | ||
| N2EY | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| It's really simple. First off, you have to remember that ham radio is all about "radio for its own sake". The medium rather than the message. What's important is the unique nature of ham radio, not that it "competes" with other modes. Second, most people will not be interested. Not because of today's world, but because most people aren't interested in "radio for its own sake". That was true 40-50 years ago as well as today, regardless of license requirements, equipment, etc. So what has to be done is to expose everyone to ham radio to get the few who will be interested. Third, a soft sell is the way, not a hard sell. Fourth, do not assume what people will and won't like. A lot of young folks who have always had video games cell phones and the internet are absolutely fascinated by Morse Code, of all things, because it's unique and a challenge. It may be old but it's new to them. So the trick is to show them as much as possible and let them decide. Fifth and most important is to be friendly and well-mannered, on and off the air. 73 de Jim, N2EY Reply to a comment by : KB6QXM on 2008-10-30 How about we query teenagers and younger people and find out why they are not interested in ham radio. Ask a teenage ham what interested them. There is your answer. Get it from the horses's mouth. Reply to a comment by : KB1QXR on 2008-10-30 A simple suggestion to attract youth- FIX YOUR CLUB'S WEBSITE. To today's youth (and by youth I'm counting anybody under 23), if something doesn't have a website it doesn't exist. If the website shows an 'upcoming event' that happened last month, that means nobody cares about it so no reason to bother. If the website is written in 1990s-era HTML and shows it, that means the club is a bunch of dumb kids or stupid old farts with no idea what they're doing. I'm not saying any of the above is true. I'm saying that after visiting the ARRL or other national site, a prospective ham is probably going to check out their local club for a VE test. And THAT is the real first impression the hobby needs to make. If that first impression suggests a good group of helpful people that aren't all 80 years old, you've hooked the prospective ham. If the first impression suggests a bunch of old geezers that either don't care or can't update their website, you've lost him. If the only pictures on the website are of 60+yr old people wearing those (lets be honest) dorky salvation army vests during an ARES test, you've lost pretty much everybody under 40 that will see it. If your club has ANY younger members (or even kids of members), use them in pictures as much as you can. It will greatly increase younger membership if they think other people their age (or even somewhat close) are hams. Web forums are better than email 'reflectors' because the archived conversations are easily available. Let anyone register an account but make sure the forum doesn't get spammed, a healthy forum is ALWAYS a sign of a healthy community. And there's nothing wrong with reaching out (as long as it's not pushing)-- public field day tents are great, as long as they have plenty of brochures and info. This works 10x better if the people manning the tent are within 10 age years of the visitor-- a 25 yr old will relate better to a 35 year old than he will to a 65 yr old. So if your club has young members, get them out on field day! And speaking of age, equipment matters too. A modern youth (again speaking 25 and under) is going to be far more impressed by a modern radio (ie Icom IC-7x00) than he will be with old vacuum tube gear. In short: old hams running old gear = old hobby. Young hams running modern gear = modern hobby. I'm again not saying this is true, but I am saying that it's the impression someone who just sees the tent (without talking or taking brocures) will get. Lastly (and most important)- when recruiting, you must abandon any notions of what ham radio 'should' be. If you think CW is the only real way to go, stay home. The beauty of this hobby is the wide variety of interests it can support, that includes everything from Extra-class homebrew CW users running QRP into long wire antennas, to Tech 'appliance operators' running HTs on the local repeater. Both are hams, and both earned their license. You want people to aspire to a higher license / learning more, not shove it down their throat saying they're a bad ham because they aren't interested in going farther. /rant | ||
| KB6QXM | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| How about we query teenagers and younger people and find out why they are not interested in ham radio. Ask a teenage ham what interested them. There is your answer. Get it from the horses's mouth. Reply to a comment by : KB1QXR on 2008-10-30 A simple suggestion to attract youth- FIX YOUR CLUB'S WEBSITE. To today's youth (and by youth I'm counting anybody under 23), if something doesn't have a website it doesn't exist. If the website shows an 'upcoming event' that happened last month, that means nobody cares about it so no reason to bother. If the website is written in 1990s-era HTML and shows it, that means the club is a bunch of dumb kids or stupid old farts with no idea what they're doing. I'm not saying any of the above is true. I'm saying that after visiting the ARRL or other national site, a prospective ham is probably going to check out their local club for a VE test. And THAT is the real first impression the hobby needs to make. If that first impression suggests a good group of helpful people that aren't all 80 years old, you've hooked the prospective ham. If the first impression suggests a bunch of old geezers that either don't care or can't update their website, you've lost him. If the only pictures on the website are of 60+yr old people wearing those (lets be honest) dorky salvation army vests during an ARES test, you've lost pretty much everybody under 40 that will see it. If your club has ANY younger members (or even kids of members), use them in pictures as much as you can. It will greatly increase younger membership if they think other people their age (or even somewhat close) are hams. Web forums are better than email 'reflectors' because the archived conversations are easily available. Let anyone register an account but make sure the forum doesn't get spammed, a healthy forum is ALWAYS a sign of a healthy community. And there's nothing wrong with reaching out (as long as it's not pushing)-- public field day tents are great, as long as they have plenty of brochures and info. This works 10x better if the people manning the tent are within 10 age years of the visitor-- a 25 yr old will relate better to a 35 year old than he will to a 65 yr old. So if your club has young members, get them out on field day! And speaking of age, equipment matters too. A modern youth (again speaking 25 and under) is going to be far more impressed by a modern radio (ie Icom IC-7x00) than he will be with old vacuum tube gear. In short: old hams running old gear = old hobby. Young hams running modern gear = modern hobby. I'm again not saying this is true, but I am saying that it's the impression someone who just sees the tent (without talking or taking brocures) will get. Lastly (and most important)- when recruiting, you must abandon any notions of what ham radio 'should' be. If you think CW is the only real way to go, stay home. The beauty of this hobby is the wide variety of interests it can support, that includes everything from Extra-class homebrew CW users running QRP into long wire antennas, to Tech 'appliance operators' running HTs on the local repeater. Both are hams, and both earned their license. You want people to aspire to a higher license / learning more, not shove it down their throat saying they're a bad ham because they aren't interested in going farther. /rant | ||
| KB1QXR | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| A simple suggestion to attract youth- FIX YOUR CLUB'S WEBSITE. To today's youth (and by youth I'm counting anybody under 23), if something doesn't have a website it doesn't exist. If the website shows an 'upcoming event' that happened last month, that means nobody cares about it so no reason to bother. If the website is written in 1990s-era HTML and shows it, that means the club is a bunch of dumb kids or stupid old farts with no idea what they're doing. I'm not saying any of the above is true. I'm saying that after visiting the ARRL or other national site, a prospective ham is probably going to check out their local club for a VE test. And THAT is the real first impression the hobby needs to make. If that first impression suggests a good group of helpful people that aren't all 80 years old, you've hooked the prospective ham. If the first impression suggests a bunch of old geezers that either don't care or can't update their website, you've lost him. If the only pictures on the website are of 60+yr old people wearing those (lets be honest) dorky salvation army vests during an ARES test, you've lost pretty much everybody under 40 that will see it. If your club has ANY younger members (or even kids of members), use them in pictures as much as you can. It will greatly increase younger membership if they think other people their age (or even somewhat close) are hams. Web forums are better than email 'reflectors' because the archived conversations are easily available. Let anyone register an account but make sure the forum doesn't get spammed, a healthy forum is ALWAYS a sign of a healthy community. And there's nothing wrong with reaching out (as long as it's not pushing)-- public field day tents are great, as long as they have plenty of brochures and info. This works 10x better if the people manning the tent are within 10 age years of the visitor-- a 25 yr old will relate better to a 35 year old than he will to a 65 yr old. So if your club has young members, get them out on field day! And speaking of age, equipment matters too. A modern youth (again speaking 25 and under) is going to be far more impressed by a modern radio (ie Icom IC-7x00) than he will be with old vacuum tube gear. In short: old hams running old gear = old hobby. Young hams running modern gear = modern hobby. I'm again not saying this is true, but I am saying that it's the impression someone who just sees the tent (without talking or taking brocures) will get. Lastly (and most important)- when recruiting, you must abandon any notions of what ham radio 'should' be. If you think CW is the only real way to go, stay home. The beauty of this hobby is the wide variety of interests it can support, that includes everything from Extra-class homebrew CW users running QRP into long wire antennas, to Tech 'appliance operators' running HTs on the local repeater. Both are hams, and both earned their license. You want people to aspire to a higher license / learning more, not shove it down their throat saying they're a bad ham because they aren't interested in going farther. /rant | ||
| AI2IA | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| K1CJS just can't put it down. | ||
| To the social reformer, nanny controller K1CJS and his fellow "tell us how to write and speak" freaks: Strain as much as you can, you will not depict inconsistency in my posts. On the "Careful How You Speak" thread I pointed out that freedom of expression is an essential part of our Freedom Heritage. So, if my purpose is to get my point across in discussion, I will use any and every literary tool with the exception of profane and obscene words. If I want to speak like a gentleman, I will. If I want to shock into attention, I will. On the other hand, you who want to force your brand of "manners" on thread responders, should contain yourself to the other article, "Careful How You Speak." Here we are discussing helping those who are self-motivated in looking into amateur radio. While I am at it, moron, I did not drag your past comments into this thread, so buzz off, creep. Does that get your attention? Show the good manners you want everone else to show on eHam.net. There are more crass writers here than little old me. Go practice on them. Go read my last post under "Careful How You Speak." Also, let others post here without trying to turn this into a you versus me thread. I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person such as yourself. End of message. Get back on topic. | ||
| KB6QXM | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| I look at it this way(from a selfish standpoint) If you cannot bring a large amount new people into the hobby by everything that the ARRL has pushed for (lowering license technical standards, no code), then what is the next step-no testing. That is what is probably happen next. Complete deregulation. Then ham radio will become as it is slowly becoming another CB radio. CB radio required call signs and licenses initially. If ham radio is around for my retirement, then that is great. If the dumbed down new generation of Americans do not want to get into ham radio, then there is not much we can do. We have already lowered the bar, eliminated the code. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make the horse drink. If ham radio works for the older generation, Great. Less people is not a bad thing. Think about it, Less QRM, less pile-ups. Less ham radio population is not a bad thing, until we start to loose spectrum. If the value system of American parents was education as is most other intellectual countries (India, China) then we would have more youth in our ranks. When was the last time you heard a teenager state that he/she wanted to be the next Einstein? No, they want to be the next Joe Montana. That is a systemic problem with the American society. Reply to a comment by : N9GXA on 2008-10-30 It is how they perceive the hobby. If they see a group of "older" gentlemen doing their thing, it might not be appealing. If a few young ones become amateurs, they, themselves, can draw in friend, peers, etc... And then you have those that are drawn in that way, but find out the hobby isn't for them and the hobby starts having a larger turn-over. That isn't all bad because of the ones that try it and like it. I, too, think it will take a major change of some type that renders cell phones, Internet connections, etc. unreliable to stand much of a chance. Although I don't see that happening soon, I am attempting to prepare myself for such an event which may drawn in a few curious people as I play/plan ahead. 73 Reply to a comment by : K9FON on 2008-10-30 What do we have to offer? Grumpy old crusty men that do nothing but complain about the dumbing down of ham radio. Sorry fellas but a bunch of grouchy old guys pissing and moaning about the state of ham radio sure as heck will keep any newcomers at bay!! Reply to a comment by : W5ESE on 2008-10-30 It's a mistake to generalize about younger people, just like it is about older ones. I was licensed as a teenager 32 years ago. I was the only ham in a high school class of about 200. Ham radio has always been a niche thing, and it still is. The type of young people that would be interested in amateur astronomy or similar subjects are the most likely types that would find amateur radio attractive. I don't think younger hams would be more or less less likely to be interested in Sats or HSMM than they would in F layer, auroral, or chordal hops. Neither am I a believer in pimping the hobby. It's good enough to be visible and helpful IF someone asks about it. 73 Scott W5ESE Reply to a comment by : W4VR on 2008-10-30 They probably hired the youth editor because of declining membership and the need to bring young people into the hobby. There's a lot that ham radio has to offer to the young person, as you point out; however, the average age of the ham radio operator in this country is at the point where elmering a young person is next to impossible...too much of a generation gap and not in tune with the latest technology that a younger person would be interested in. | ||
| N8NSN | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| Same it is ...as it was | ||
| I remember when I was a kid (Grade school through Jr. High) I was always fascinated with what I later learned was propagation. Science and art were the interests I clung to with SWLing and playing with those old walki-talkies. I got involved in many other things as a kid. Music and some sports etc. All my friends, with the exception of one or two, thought the whole radio thing I was interested in was, simply put, BORING. There were no PCs in the house. Limited video games were around and cost a quarter to play. Cable TV was only just breaking ground. We had no cell phones. We had to create our fun. That is not so much how it is today. Then as a young adult I got married, had kids and other responsibilities that held my licensing as an amateur radio op for a good many years. None the less; I returned to the hobby because of the initial interests in "how it all works". To this day I am what could be considered a "casual operator". No doubt, I love the hobby and wish to keep involved in it, in any context, as long as I am physically and mentally capable. All that being said... I agree with all the posts that say, in so many words; Only when a person who is interested in the hobby, before any one "lures them in", will find the hobby interesting enough to pursue it. Same as me with video games. Never did like them much and still don't. Even though now, video games are a HUGE part of daily life for a good number of people (young and old) and could even be called a hobby. Having four children, ranging in age from 21 to three; I can safely say none of them has ever expressed any interest in the hobby. One of my girls finds it very interesting and exciting, but, that excitement is more relative to experiencing "Dad having fun". The kids of today have too many options IMO. Try explaining to a child that the cell phone they are using is actually a radio... Have a look at the blind stare you get in return and the "OK, whatever... I need to call Jenny" you receive in return. The kids... Man oh man, what I would have done if I had the technology at my disposal when I was a kid... Will Amateur Radio survive? Who knows. Unfortunately we are seeming to live in a societal structure that "follows the herd" in what is popular or generates the most economical merit being the most promoted. I hope it never happens, but, I could imagine the amateur bands eventually being sold off to commercial interests. :-( | ||
| N9GXA | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| It is how they perceive the hobby. If they see a group of "older" gentlemen doing their thing, it might not be appealing. If a few young ones become amateurs, they, themselves, can draw in friend, peers, etc... And then you have those that are drawn in that way, but find out the hobby isn't for them and the hobby starts having a larger turn-over. That isn't all bad because of the ones that try it and like it. I, too, think it will take a major change of some type that renders cell phones, Internet connections, etc. unreliable to stand much of a chance. Although I don't see that happening soon, I am attempting to prepare myself for such an event which may drawn in a few curious people as I play/plan ahead. 73 Reply to a comment by : K9FON on 2008-10-30 What do we have to offer? Grumpy old crusty men that do nothing but complain about the dumbing down of ham radio. Sorry fellas but a bunch of grouchy old guys pissing and moaning about the state of ham radio sure as heck will keep any newcomers at bay!! Reply to a comment by : W5ESE on 2008-10-30 It's a mistake to generalize about younger people, just like it is about older ones. I was licensed as a teenager 32 years ago. I was the only ham in a high school class of about 200. Ham radio has always been a niche thing, and it still is. The type of young people that would be interested in amateur astronomy or similar subjects are the most likely types that would find amateur radio attractive. I don't think younger hams would be more or less less likely to be interested in Sats or HSMM than they would in F layer, auroral, or chordal hops. Neither am I a believer in pimping the hobby. It's good enough to be visible and helpful IF someone asks about it. 73 Scott W5ESE Reply to a comment by : W4VR on 2008-10-30 They probably hired the youth editor because of declining membership and the need to bring young people into the hobby. There's a lot that ham radio has to offer to the young person, as you point out; however, the average age of the ham radio operator in this country is at the point where elmering a young person is next to impossible...too much of a generation gap and not in tune with the latest technology that a younger person would be interested in. | ||
| AC7ZL | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| I think you intended your question with respect to the physical hardware in the shack, but I choose to interpret the question in a different sense. When someone comes into my shack, as expected, they will see radios, scopes, test equipment, computers, wires, and tools and electronic parts all over the place. None of this, however, really matters. What is important is that they also see an operator who is very passionate about science, electronics, and radio. They see a person with an enthusiasm for learning, and with a preference for learning through hands-on activity. Ultimately, they see a person who is equally enthusiastic about sharing what he knows with others. When someone asks what I do with my radio equipment, I tend to shy away from demonstrations of 2 meters or similar "CB-like" equipment. Instead, I demonstrate Morse. I explain the physics behind an "obsolete" mode that allows me to contact someone in Japan using less energy than a nightlight consumes. I show them waterfall displays and how the little "railroad tracks" can be decoded into messages. I show how I can capture digital signals elsewhere in the HF bands to receive coded weather broadcasts and weather maps. I play recordings I've made of voice traffic from the ISS, and HAARP signals that have gone all the way to the moon and bounced back. I try to demonstrate aspects of radio that will fire the imagination. If ham radio is about no more than rag-chewing, why bother with a license? That objective can be accomplished far more easily with a cell phone or an internet chat room. If ham radio is about the science, and about the joy of learning, then there is good reason to tinker and experiment. This *will* attract bright young minds. Just my $0.02 worth... 73 Pete AC7ZL ------------------------------ NA4IT said: When a youth comes to your shack what does he see? | ||
| TECHROD | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Tell a kid to do it and he won't. | ||
| Maybe after you have convinced them there is no future in cell phones and video games then amatuer radio will spark an interest .. leave a stack of old ham magazines out in plain sight and see if they pick one up? KD8JGM. Reply to a comment by : K1CJS on 2008-10-30 AI2IA, in this thread said: >>>What do we have to offer? The best thing we have to offer is the non-aggressive example of our day to day ham activities. If we get pushy, if we get preachy, if we swamp them with stuff, they will go away. It is like feeding birds and squirrels - let them come to you.<<< He further said: >>>If you get pushy, they will go away.<<< But in the article "Careful how you speak" on Oct. 26th, he said: >>>If the ham who posted this censorship article doesn't care about the comments, then why did he post the article? Look, as long as you are a ham and you feel like you have something relevant to post, go ahead and post it. Leave the self-esteem stuff to schoolmarms (educators), and speak your mind. Even though I criticise them, I would rather have the ARRL bashers, the gloom and doom hams, the snobs, the good old boys, and the Morse Code - No Morse Code warriors than some finger wagging censorship advocate. The worst cases that appear on here are the social reformers and the anonymous freaks. Yeah, I said it all and I'm glad I did.<<< Well, I'm not complaining, I think it's funny. Here he wants to be polite and courteous to attract youth into the hobby, but on the other thread he was ready to rip peoples heads off because others advocated watching how you speak on this site--in other words, try to speak politely and be somewhat courteous. "Non aggressive example" is the words that made me laugh. Ray, you're one of the most aggressive people on this site! Now, according to your stated principles on the other thread, that is MY thought--and I'm speaking MY mind. MY conclusion about your tirades is this: You're a hypocrite because you want to treat people differently according to your whims. Either that--or have you had a check-up for Altzheimers disease lately? Reply to a comment by : AI2IA on 2008-10-30 We don't bring youth into Amateur Radio. HEY, DAD! BUZZ OFF! Youth bring themselves into amateur radio. Those young persons WHO FIRST OF ALL HAVE THEIR OWN SPARK OF INTEREST IN THINGS OF A SCIENTIFIC NATURE will read and learn about radio propagation and radio communication and radio physics. Once having done that, they will come across amateur radio, and with THEIR OWN DRIVE AND MOTIVATION they will inquire, and study, and experience, and pass the tests, and become hams. By being what we are, by doing what we do, by helping IF WE ARE ASKED BY THEM, by keeping ham literature in the schools and libraries, we give the most important thing - the EXPOSURE TO THE OPPORTUNITY. If you get pushy, they will go away. I have thirteen children. One became a ham at age twelve. The others are only now getting interested in amateur radio when they are in their twenties and thirties. Slowly but surely they are coming aboard. It is like growing a forest. You wait years for your return on the lumber, but it's there. | ||
| K9FON | 2008-10-30 | |
|---|---|---|
| RE: Bringing Youth into Amateur Radio | ||
| What do we have to offer? Grumpy old crusty men that do nothing but complain about the dumbing down of ham radio. Sorry fellas but a bunch of grouchy old guys pissing and moaning about the state of ham radio sure as heck will keep any newcomers at bay!! Reply to a comment by : W5ESE on 2008-10-30 It's a mistake | ||