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Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?

Created by Paul Veal N0AH on 2019-04-04

After two recently failed attempts to activate Bouvet Island with well thought out plans by experienced DXpeditions, isn't it time that the ARRL removes dangerous DXCC's from the current active list?

What if either of these ships perished? At times, it seemed very possible.

There is a moral compass those who that create games stopped at having players risk life and limb.

Why is the ARRL not seeing this?

I'm sure we each can think of at the minimum of three to deactivate, that are very concerning.

Mine include 3Y/B, 3Y/P, and VP8/O.

I am sure deep down inside as DX'ers, you get where I am coming from. Sink in these waters, and you're dead. Land on these islands with the inability to evacuate, you're dead.

What are your top 3 if you were really being honest with yourself, so-as not to sponsor highly likely one-way missions?

LYFAN 2019-05-31
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
I think the OP hasn't really thought it out. Exposure to radiation and possibly lethal electrical wiring is dangerous. There's no reason civilians need it. The ARRL should therefore logically call for a ban on all amateur radio equipment. Which would also save many kilowatts and also help thwart global warming.

Why stop at banning dangerous travel? Let's have that dangerous electrical gear confiscated and safely taken away for recycling, now!

Just put it all out on the curb, we'll come around tonight or tomorrow and take it away for you. And call the utility company to shut that dangerous electricity for the premises also. You have no need for it.
KU2US 2019-05-12
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
It is obvious that some of these DXpeditions are dangerous! AND these folks know it! But who are we or the ARRL to tell these folks they just can't do it? I am all for working a ship, say +/- 5 miles off the coast of a rare DX entity, as long as they can eyeball the land area. This eliminates most, but not all of the danger. You can have it both ways, but to tell someone that they can not do it? NOPE-not a chance. Who told Admiral Byrd He couldn't go to the North Pole? or Emelia Erhardt she couldn't fly the globe? (& she didn't make it). et.et.. Several posters argued the "Nanny State" thing! I agree with that. We don't need Nannies! We do what we want to do, AND we reap the rewards and/or suffer the consequences. That is part of life and/or death.
N2WL 2019-05-08
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
I agree with you. Bouvet should know longer be on the dx list.
Working it proves nothing. The dangers are real. It does not matter that some people are fool enough to go there. The real issue is that at some point someone is going to loose their life playing DX and then there will be recriminations.

I am all for working distant stations. I prefer the rag chew and getting to know them. UR5NN ATNO is not getting to know one.

I love getting on planes to meet my DX friends. The rest of this dxpedition stuff is nonsense. Sure, go to a nice warm island or safari to Africa and bring a radio. Have fun, work some guys, have a vacation.

It's a hobby afer all and working Bouvet is not making us better operators. Once we have a good antenna and amplifier then all this nonsense is just slam bam thank you maam. It's no different.

Now the latest is digital. Set your computer and ping me when you have worked dxcc. Fine with me. Whatever. But Bouvet is a rock. It ain't a country. Start with the Country members of the UN and everything else cancel. North Korea cancel. They don't want to play so why should we want to play with them? My two cents. N2WL
NZ2Z 2019-04-29
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
We all have freedom of choice, otherwise let’s cancel football season as the sport is to risky, close down ski slopes, cancel NASCAR races (gasp!), etc. etc. We want rare DX and someone gives it to us. Those who go on these are modern day explorers. They know the risks. They are not stupid.
SWL377 2019-04-18
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
My view? Leave it up to the participating individuals to assess and assume risk unless their activity seriously endangers the general public. Regulations and rulemaking have been shown to be largely ineffective in controlling or suppressing risky behavior in individuals.

I've been skydiving for 51 years. Thankfully, the government has stepped very lightly on our sport over the past half-century. The FAA requires me to wear a backup reserve chute that is regularly inspected and repacked by a licensed parachute rigger. The rest of the applicable rules and regs are not burdensome at all.

Now, at age 69, I enjoy working HF QRP QSOs from aloft under canopy. It's a bit riskier than ground-based ham ops but there is no need for the FCC, FAA or ARRL to specially regulate this activity as the risks it poses fall almost exclusively on the particpants not the general public.

AF6IM
www.parachutemobile.com
G3RZP 2019-04-17
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
How many hundreds of people have gone on DXpeditions since 1945? How many have been killed - I think it's three. One, a German shot by the Chinese military - with no warning - who were illegally occupying an island in the South China Sea and I think two (one a ZL) lost at sea.

Compare that even with accidents to private aviation let alone the highly dangerous activity of driving a car. More amateurs have been killed putting up antennas than by going on DXpeditions. Should ARRL go for a rule that all amateur antennas must be put by professionals?
KB6QXM 2019-04-17
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
@Straightkey,

I was very young in the 50's, but it was a very nice time in America from what I can see on videos on YouTube. There is a lot to say about the 1950's. Styling of cars, the suburbs and Americana in general.

People worked hard and played hard. No coddling. Amateur radio was from what I have read, was a much better time.

The 60's was an interesting time to grow up in. A lot of achievements and changes in the 60's.

A lot of conflict also. TV was great in the 1960s, Cars were outstanding, music was and is still unequaled.

Different times. I like the 21st century with reservations.

73


STRAIGHTKEY 2019-04-16
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
>Diluting the test, Eliminating the code requirement VECs, Vanity calls. Eliminating the 1-year non-renewable Novice class license. You either upgraded or found another hobby.

Looks like someone really likes the 1950s.

KB6QXM 2019-04-15
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
@N4KC,

Instead of flaming on me, maybe you should ask specific questions to understand my point of view.

1st. I have contributed to amateur radio. I was the AEC that provided health and welfare communications at the EPI center of the 1989 Loma Prieta quake. Going up a heavily destroyed mountain road right after the quake potentially risking my life for community service and in support of ARES.

2nd. Have I given demonstrations. Yes, to both Silicon Valley professionals when they were not working on satellites. Been at booths at events promoting amateur radio to all ages

3rd. Do I belong to a club? Yes, I do, even though I really do not spend much time with them.

4th. Why have I not upgraded to Extra. Simple. Being an Advanced class differentiates me from the pool of Extra class operators that passed 20 WPM, 5 WPM or 0 WPM.

Being an Advanced class ham states that I passed 13 WPM code, know code and passed the same basic theory test that has been transferred to the Extra Class element.

5th. As in my professional life, effort is one thing and results is another. The ARRL may have had a lot of EFFORT, but it is results I am looking for. Not expanding Technician class licensees to have more HF frequencies. The spirit of the Technician class license was for the ham that was interested in frequencies above 50 Mhz.

I personally do not like the direction that the hobby is going. Diluting the test, Eliminating the code requirement VECs, Vanity calls. Eliminating the 1-year non-renewable Novice class license. You either upgraded or found another hobby. No coddling.

I am aware of what the ARRL is doing, I just don't like it.

Don, let's just agree to disagree and be done with this conversation.

Thank you and 73.

N4KC 2019-04-14
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Robert,

Exactly my point! Regardless the field of endeavor, things have to change to keep up with society, its wants and needs. Yes, ham radio experienced solid growth as baby-boomers were impressed with the almost magical ability to communicate worldwide by radio. Gen-Xers and Millennials are not quite so amazed since they have a device on their belts and in their purses that enable them to do that anytime they wish. We do have to show them all the other aspects of our wonderful hobby if we hope to attract their interest and allegiance, and we have to do that in a landscape in which billions of dollars are being spent and the latest technology employed to accomplish that goal for so many other pursuits and products.

The ARRL is clearly working hard to address the needs and wants of all ages of potential hams. Were you a member, you might be more aware of what they are doing, as well as their recent efforts to better learn what would work and how to deliver that experience to those interested in joining us.

You mention a few things you think the League is wrongly doing or not doing to keep the hobby vibrant and relatable. Sponsoring contests? Well, I'd bet the ARRL has nothing to do with 75% of all contesting. But Sweepstakes, the DX contests, VHF/UHF events, and Field Day are among the most popular out there. And if you don't see how radiosport might be a strong draw for generations that grew up on video games, then I'll probably never be able to change your mind anyway. If contests are not popular, they would go away. They don't. They are more popular than ever, based on number of entries.

Try to help hams overcome CCRs/HOAs or all the hands-free-driving legislation? Again, if you were a League member...or bothered to read any of the independent news services that report on amateur radio...you would know about a long, long list of League initiatives as well as a plethora of expensive lobbying and legal maneuvering the ARRL has undertaken in those very areas?

Demonstrate the hobby to young people? Holy cow! Even if your head is stuck in the sand, you have to be aware of the many activities the League sponsors and promotes for youth, including scholarships to college, operating events, and a strong push through affiliated clubs. They are also finally doing research to develop an actionable plan to attract a continuing influx of hams of all ages. And this is at the urging of members, first and foremost, but also to benefit everyone, not just members.

(Loaded question, Robert: What have YOU done to demonstrate the hobby to young people? How have you helped those facing issues with covenants, HOAs, or having a mobile radio? Have you contacted your representatives locally and in Sacramento on these issues? Are you a member of a club out there in The People's Republic of Kalifornia? If not, why not? Have you thought about starting a club that would do outreach to those you believe would make happy, contributing hams? Or urged the club you belong to to do such since you are of the opinion that the hobby dies when we baby-boomers go SK.)

And once again, you cite the old belief that the ARRL's only effort toward growing the hobby is dumbing down the test so my Labrador retriever can become an Extra Class ham. And even that effort is solely to sign up more members, sell more books, and make more money for the fat cats in Connecticut.

To which I say, "Bull feathers!" I maintain the League has done more to build and promote the hobby since I started typing this response than you and other misguided detractors have done...well...ever! Take a minute and visit www.arrl.org. Give it a look. See what is going on. Then tell me the only thing that bunch in Newington does is cash checks and smoke expensive cigars.

I have never maintained the ARRL is perfect, that every action is correct, that it should not be improved. Like you, I am aware of the demographics of our hobby and what the new-licensee numbers are. But so is the League. And if you were willing to keep yourself better informed, you would know what they are proposing to do about it. There are some dedicated folks who do a lot, whether paid or not, to make this hobby better and attract every single soul out there who might have an interest in it. That's why I support them by being a member, by communicating with my Section Manager and Division Director and letting them know what my concerns are. Not by blasting all things ARRL in some chat forum.

You say the League should be doing those things you mention INSTEAD OF pushing contests? Or dumbing down the tests? (Have you taken a General or Extra practice exam lately, Robert? How'd you do? If you aced that Extra one, you may want to go ahead and upgrade from Advanced. There is a ton more of 75 meters you could use if you did.)

Read, listen, and make yourself aware and you will see that not only is it NOT an either/or proposition, but these are things our national organization takes very seriously and is doing every single day...with the guidance of its members...to improve all things for all hams, not just League members. That is, when they take a break from promoting all those contests and coming up with easy exam questions!

Now, excuse me but all this diatribe-swapping is cutting into my on-air time. There may be some contest going on I need to work. Or a new, young ham I would like to welcome to the hobby before curmudgeons like you convince them we're all about to be as rare as sunspots and they'd be better off sticking with their video games and Smartphones.

(I do wonder if Hiram Percy Maxim signed up for the lifetime membership in the League. That would have been a pretty good bargain for him. And for me, too. But alas, I missed the chance for that to math out in my favor when I became a ham 58 years ago!)

73,

Don N4KC
www.donkeith.com
www.n4kc.com
www.facebook.com/donkeith



KB6QXM 2019-04-13
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
@N4KC,

I do not make statements that I am against the ARRL without actions that the ARRL have taken that I do not agree with.

There are many. Call me a traditionalist. I understand that something has to be done to strengthen the hobby, as I firmly believe that in 30 years the hobby will be a shell of what it is now. Once Baby Boomers/Gen X become SKs, I believe that even though the numbers maybe up based on the lowering of the requirements, that there are so many generational forces against the hobby and other factors such as HOAs/CC&Rs.

Instead of pushing contests. How about youth outreach with public demonstrations of the technology? How about fighting the HOAs and CC&Rs to allow the installation of towers and other amateur radio antennas. No antenna, no radio.

I live in the people republic of California. Mobile amateur radio is basically outlawed due to distracted driver laws. This is what I want the ARRL to do to strengthen the hobby, not generate contests every week. Enough already. If you look at the stats of the percentage of amateur radio operators belong to the ARRL, then you will know that I am not the only one with this opinion of the "league". Now if I was alive when Hiram Percy Maxim was alive, then I probably would be a member.

73

N4KC 2019-04-13
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Robert,

Sorry if you thought my response was a "lecture." I did state that everyone is entitled to his point of view--including you--and I was simply expressing mine in reaction to yours. And I don't believe any regular reader of threads here on eHam require your "full disclosure" about your outlook on the ARRL. You have made no effort to hide it.

I am not necessarily pro-ARRL. I am definitely pro any organization that attempts to protect and make our wonderful hobby stronger. One that does what the ARRL's articles of incorporation state the group's purpose to be. I happen to believe the League is our best hope right now. And I am heartened by recent changes in direction. If somebody--you and the other few naysayers here on eHam?--comes up with a better idea and a workable plan, I'm in.

But you have chosen not to participate in making the League better since you say you never have been and never will become a member. "Never" is a heckuva long time! Nor have I seen from you in your many posts any suggestions for accomplishing those worthy goals (surely you agree the stated purposes of ARRL are good ones) other than complaining continually about our current organization.

I suppose you and a few others (W4KVU out here on our side of the nation, for example) are convinced the best way you can make the hobby stronger and better is by incessantly posting your negative, unfounded, and vitriolic opinions here on eHam and NEVER joining the League.

I hope it works. But in the meantime, I'll remain loyal to our current best hope, the ARRL. Hope you fellows don't mind if I wait and see how your methods work before I join your club.

73,

Don N4KC
www.n4kc.com
www.donkeith.com
https://www.facebook.com/donkeith


KB6QXM 2019-04-13
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
@N4KC,

Full disclosure: I am not an ARRL member, never have been and never will be a member of the ARRL.

Thank you for the lecture. Don't you have a book to write?

Just because you are PRO-ARRL, I do not like to be lectured to, I have enough of that in the state that I reside in.

I am entitled to my opinion as you do.

Thank you. End of conversation.
N4KC 2019-04-13
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?

KB6QXM:

I was just mildly curious how you could arrive at that conclusion. Out of scores of comments in this thread, you may have three or four people that have negative views of the League. That's a very small percentage, and not at all a representative sample anyway. They are the usual suspects who, for some reason, see no reason at all for the ARRL's existence. While they are absolutely entitled to their opinions, I don't understand why they would lead you to believe that they represent a sizeable number of hams and their beliefs.

Now, if you had quoted the stats on the number of hams out there vs. the number who decide to join the League, you may have been able to make your point. But the new CEO has announced a bold plan to address that. Let's hope it works.

Our hobby needs a strong, forward-thinking organization to continue to do what the ARRL was formed to do in the first place: the promotion of interest in Amateur Radio communication and experimentation; the establishment of Amateur
Radio networks to provide electronic communications in the event of disasters or other emergencies; the furtherance of the public welfare; the advancement of the radio art; the fostering and promotion of noncommercial intercommunication by electronic means throughout the world; the fostering of education in the field of electronic communication; the promotion and conduct of research and development to further the development of electronic communication; the
dissemination of technical, educational and scientific information relating to electronic
communication; and the printing and publishing of documents, books, magazines, newspapers and
pamphlets necessary or incidental to any of the above purposes.

Anytime you or any of the other complainers want to form an organization that will do these things, please do so. Meanwhile, you might consider joining this one and helping it do an even better job.

73,

Don N4KC
www.n4kc.com
www.donkeith.com


KB6QXM 2019-04-13
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
One thing is perfectly clear from this post. How many amateur radio operators dislike the ARRL.
KA7EKW 2019-04-11
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Perhaps the OP should apply for the the callsign N4NNY.

It's too bad that not only does he not understand the adventure of going on a DXpedition to some remote location, but that he wants to keep others from having that adventure.

K0CBA 2019-04-09
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
The ARRL is a disaster!
VA3VF 2019-04-09
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
With remotes, 'your' radio room can potentially be anywhere on earth, but the DXCC credit will likely be claimed from the home entity (Wink wink, nudge nudge. Say no more, say no more.).

As for preventing a disaster, another idea. An FT8 bot could be deployed on dangerous entities. An entrepreneurial ham could them setup a remote at the nearest 'safe harbor' to help the 'deserving'.
W4AMP 2019-04-09
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Now that you can remote through expensive stations on either coast what difference does it make?
KA2IRQ 2019-04-09
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
People climb Everest because "it's there."

And that has nothing to do with any possible SOTA status!
KA6WKE 2019-04-08
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
I'm sure deaths from tower falls greatly exceeds those dying on a DXpedition. Towers greater than 6' tall must b e banned! :)
VA3VF 2019-04-08
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
>>>Here's an idea for a simple rule change: "When a DXpedition gets within X miles of the shore of an entity, let them operate from the ship and have it count as the entity." Those who want the thrill of risking their lives and putting up with the hardships are free to do so but it won't be required. GPS technology can easily confirm that a DXpedition is within the required distance from an entity.

An idea that deserves some 'air time', as is limiting the distance for DXCC credits to still be valid for the same award issue, when moving QTHs in big geographic entities (Canada, US, China, Russia for example).

The latter can wait for April Fool's day 2020. :^)
VA3VF 2019-04-08
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
>>>When entities are added, motivation to activate them is added with it. When entities are removed, interest drops to zero.

It cannot get any clearer than this. People are still free to go wherever they want.

Mt. Everest is not on the DXCC list, and people still go there. Some, sadly, never to return.

Bouvet, and other places, are not going anywhere, DXCC listed or not. Adventurers can still put together a DXped to visit and operate from the place. Raising the necessary funds may be a little tricky if it's no longer on the DXCC list.

Judging by the group think shown here, the Sentinel natives have to thank both the ARRL and the Indian government for their survival.

If Sentinel makes the DXCC list, and the Indian government issues licenses, the natives are doomed. DXers seem more dangerous than spear throwing natives.

Then, as also mentioned, there is the cost incurred for search and rescue, if things go wrong.

It's not right that I have to share the costs to rescue a group of people that wants to jump from an snow covered peak far away from established trails, as an example, something that has happened and continue to happen.

A bond must be posted for these kind of 'adventures'. If nothing goes wrong, the bond is cheerfully returned, otherwise, the SAR group will look for volunteers (note the volunteer qualifier) to risk their lives to save these 'cool' guys.

Feel free to pursue a 5 Band 'Darwin Award', but don't take others with you, both physically and financially.

Great April Fool's thread, by the way.
WO7R 2019-04-08
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
<<<< How is the ARRL responsible for the welfare of people who sign up (as they certainly must do?) to go on a hazardous DXpedition? >>>>

They/we are not entirely responsible.

But, in publishing the DXCC list (a list which has a lot of arbitrariness about it -- it isn't like the list came from some sacred place or even has much consistency about it), the DXCC program (and its supporters) _invite_ dangerous behavior that they could -- if they chose -- eliminate.

Moreover, we, the DXing community, both cheer lead and supply a not insubstantial part of the money.

This isn't either/or. The DXpeditioners certainly bear their share of the responsibility, indeed, I would argue the bulk of it.

But, to pretend the rest of us have nothing to do with it is beyond disingenuous. The places big time DXpeditioners go -- and do not go -- are determined by the list.

An even casual understanding of how big time DXpeditions work quickly leads one to understand that big time DXpeditioners are not motivated by "simply doing something hard or dangerous". They are motivated by whether something is rare _as defined by DXCC_.

When entities are added, motivation to activate them is added with it. When entities are removed, interest drops to zero.

It's all about the list, in the end.

W8LV 2019-04-08
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Caveat Emptor.
How is the ARRL responsible for the welfare of people who sign up (as they certainly must do?) to go on a hazardous DXpedition?

Setting aside radio completely, a trip to Ducie, Clipperton, or Howland is a relative Maritime Risk. For anyone, anytime. More so than a trip from Sandusky to Pelee Island for certain, but that's also a risk.

That's why the Captain calls it off, sometimes.
Being a Master has its own risks, too! If he places anyone in peril, he has the company to answer to. And they answer to Lloyd's. And then there's the court system.
N0AH 2019-04-08
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
it was a joke post, but keep the comments coming- Good discussion except for the natives throwing spears! Ahhhh! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kf9ZF1NLXQ
WO7R 2019-04-07
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
<<<<
If i want to go somewhere exotic or unique to participate in DX, that’s my choice. If someone or the league wants to remove it from the rolls to protect me, then that tells me they are dictating to me what I can or can’t do and that tells me there is no respect for any of us adults
>>>>

You very offence reveals the weakness of your argument.

Nobody is stopping you from mounting an expedition to all kinds of dangerous places.

There's a lot of stuff that is just as dangerous, if not moreso, for which there are _no DXpeditions_ because they are _not on the list_.

There are places _on the list_ that nobody goes to because they are harder and more dangerous. What do I mean by that? I mean that some islands in various DXCC entities are harder than others. Sometimes, much harder.

AFAICT, all DXpeditions to South Sandwich go to Thule Island. It is forbidding, difficult, and dangerous but _less so_ than other islands in the chain. So, nobody activates the other islands in the chain. Even if I am mistaken about that, there's a lot of islands there that have never been activated and almost certainly never will be. It's a fairly lengthy list if you look it up. But if DXCC had nothing to do with it and it was all about general adventuring, you'd think people would try. But, of course, they do not.

But, go ahead, find the funds and mount the expedition to those other islands. Nobody is stopping you.

There is also a place called Sentinel Island that makes the news now and then because the natives there have a nasty habit of greeting outsiders with spears to the chest (as a missionary recently rediscovered). But, we don't need to activate Sentinel for DXCC purposes (it's part of the Andaman chain), so no DXpeditions go there.

What is stopping you from going to those places? Nothing really. All of these places, on or off the list, harder than the ones actually activated or not, are all there and if you can find the money and the right ship, you can get there and set up a radio. What is actually stopping you is the reality I am talking about. It is _our list_ that motivates all of this activity.

Every. Single. Bit.

So, we bear our share of the responsibility for it and, if we choose, we can have different levels of risk.

But don't blubber in your beer about some perceived offense. The list isn't stopping you a bit.
VE3UUH 2019-04-07
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
I don't care where people go when they make their own choices to do so knowing the risks involved. The bigger question is why do some of the most insane places on earth have call signs! I am thinking Scarborough Reef which will soon be under the ocean, some rock pile off South America etc. Before the flaming arrows get flung I have worked and confirmed everything but get ready 4U1UN NY. Time to look at the DXCC list and maybe make some adjustments?
BURGERLOVER65 2019-04-07
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Craving to talk with someone far away without wires is just another fetish - like the foot fetish. The question is why should any activities make people feel 'high'. Something about the brain or is it spiritual? Getting high is just a form of slavery imho.
KJ4DGE 2019-04-07
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
For an April fool article this is getting a LOT of mileage....
W8RXL 2019-04-07
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
I’m actually offended by this.

I don’t know why, maybe it is the fact I am an adult as are millions of other people and I am capable of making my own decisions,

If i want to go somewhere exotic or unique to participate in DX, that’s my choice. If someone or the league wants to remove it from the rolls to protect me, then that tells me they are dictating to me what I can or can’t do and that tells me there is no respect for any of us adults.
W4KVW 2019-04-06
RE: Huh...?!
by W4KVU on April 6, 2019
The ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
LMAO ---- they are a disaster ----

I said the same thing & my comment was Removed just FYI. Guess I hurt someones feeling who supports that Worthless bunch of Clowns? They can't help themselves except to members dollars & they have ZERO Authority to do anything or anyone. LOL

Clayton
W4KVW
KG0MN 2019-04-06
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Personally I could care less either way, In my view DXpeditions automatically bring out the rudest operators in the hobby, more illegal amplifiers, every lid on the face of the earth. People will also spend more money for an antenna and tower than some people have to live on for a year.

Kevin Elliott - KG0MN
N5PZJ 2019-04-06
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Mickey and Don are on he right tract, I would allow for DXCC credit if the vessel is in the National Waters (12 Mile Boundary) and Anchored with prior notice of the activation to DXCC in concern to designated reefs and islands.

This would minimize:
1. Landing permissions in such places as the Insular Islands such as Navassa, Deseacho, Baker, etc.

2. Places without suitable landing areas such as Rockall, Reefs and outcropping areas.

3. Dangerous and Enviromentally Protected areas such as Bouvet.

There would have to be safeguards in place to prevent bootlegging and sandbagging operations but close involvement of the DXCC Oversight people must authorize it before credit is given.

Martin N5PZJ
W4KVU 2019-04-06
RE: Huh...?!
The ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
LMAO ---- they are a disaster ----
N9AOP 2019-04-06
RE: Huh...?!
N0AH, to be serious, you would have to be prepared to take that kind of risk before you got on the boat. Not only the trip to the site and back but all the hardships that befall a DXpedition.
Art
VE3CUI 2019-04-06
Huh...?!
But if you actually DO manage to work the rare spot like that --- despite risk to life & limb! --- you'll actually get the OK to check-off a "needed" one off of your DXCC list...!

You mean that's NOT worth it...?! :o)
PU2OZT 2019-04-06
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Most freacking sites on Earth, apart from the human factor, remain Fukushima, Tschernobyl... if you can keep ICs from frying!

To T/X onboard ships anchored-off remote islands would only imply to settle back all radio stuff, hiring ROs again et voilà! supplies, fuel, HVAC, everything available, energy is regulated, waste is managed, weather, sea monitored... nothing a crew isn't doing. Even, the whole voyage would be part of the entity and why not, scientific experiment been made at sea to mitigate costs. There could even be DX-Voyages on board passenger-ships or sailing-ships...
I personally wouldn't mind logging a QTH 500-miles off the anchoring Lat/Long. Of course, most hams would favor the QSL with the exact DXCC. A paradigm shift from the present concept, call my fiction movie "The Revenge of the Radio-Officers", co-produced by ham hobbyists.

Oliver
KT0DD 2019-04-06
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
These are grown adult men making a choice and accepting all responsibility for said choice. If they perish, at least they went doing something they loved to do. As Ann Lander's column often said...MYOB.

K5CQB 2019-04-06
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
I could get in a car wreck on the way to work. I guess I'll just stay home from now on since the possibility of danger out in the real world exists. smh
N0AH 2019-04-06
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
So Art, what if either of those ships unfortunately sunk??? On a serious note for a minute......
N0AH 2019-04-06
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?

What are your top 3 if you were really being honest with yourself, so-as not to sponsor highly likely one-way missions?


Desecho Island- Bombs everywhere

North Korea- become a prisoner

Japan - Be driving to the point over the brink with all of the 20 meters JA spots, and getting the same card for a QSO for five years ago via the buro every fricken month
N0AH 2019-04-06
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
yep-
N9AOP 2019-04-06
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
3 people died in the Grand Canyon in the last 8 days and no one died in the two attempts to Bouvet.
Art
N4KC 2019-04-06
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?

Two points:

I'm with Mickey K5ML. Allow ships within a certain distance of a DX entity to count as being on-shore. That makes it much safer and less expensive and would encourage more activations. Also probably result in some new antenna technology to be able to effectively emit RF from aboard a vessel on some of the bands.

Secondly, thanks to many of you for confirming my belief that most readers of eHam.net articles (and most postings on the internet, by the way) only bother to read the headline and maybe the first few sentences. They certainly don't take the time to see what others are saying or to consider their points of view. Or determine that the article was an April Fool's gag in the first place.

73,

Don N4KC
www.n4kc.com
www.donkeith.com
https://www.facebook.com/donkeith
www.wallace-keith.com



K5ML 2019-04-06
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
N0AH: "I'm sure we each can think of at the minimum of three to deactivate, that are very concerning.

Mine include 3Y/B, 3Y/P, and VP8/O."

Paul, I share your concern about people dying on DXpeditions. I've never worked an ATNO worth anyone dying for.

My thinking is that rather deactivating entities, let's come up with a plan to make DXpeditions more comfortable, more frequent and less hazardous. Here's an idea for a simple rule change: "When a DXpedition gets within X miles of the shore of an entity, let them operate from the ship and have it count as the entity." Those who want the thrill of risking their lives and putting up with the hardships are free to do so but it won't be required. GPS technology can easily confirm that a DXpedition is within the required distance from an entity.

That simple rule change or one similar to it would likely encourage more DXpeditions by more hams and greatly reduce risk. Islands that don't allow hams on them could be activated and we would all have more DX to chase.
What's to not like?

As for me, I've never been on a DXpediton. I'm waiting for them to build a Four Seasons at Scarborough Reef. ;)

73,
Mickey, K5ML
W3NUS 2019-04-05
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Tell this to a rock climber, a skier,and a TV host who passed from swimming with Manta rays. Everything in life that has any adventure can be fraught with danger to life and limb. You take the chances and live your life with the chances and rewards
KB6QXM 2019-04-05
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
@N2RRY,

I like the way you think and you live in New York. How does that work? Of course, I live in the bay area, so there you go! LOL!

Wish more hams thought like you. Hard work and discipline usually produces results. Not someone handing you something so you do not have to struggle.

Everything is built on struggle, not the opposite. Nice to make your virtual acquaintance. Hope to see you on the air.

73
N2RRA 2019-04-05
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
KB6QXM Wrote; Isn't that evident ever since the "inclusion" crowd of the ARRL to lower the license standards and the elimination of the code because we want to discriminate against anyone that do not have the ability to learn code or to someone who does not understand all of that electronic theory.

Another example is the ARRL pushing all of these instant gratification and ego-stroking contests with little human interaction etc.

—————————————————————— ————————-
So many talking points indeed. Dabbing into another subject. I believe the “discrimination and ego stroking contests with little human interaction” I assume referring to all the digital communications? Digital modes is and will hinder core principals of ham radio involving human interaction, but is the dumb down mode for the ham ops of past, present and future hams. On that note, all these programs will basically do everything for you so what’s the purpose in needing to learn code, propagation fundamentals, atmospheric evaluations and assessments to DX hunting. The digital modes tell you when, where, how to look and in which directions to look with out needing to do anything let alone THINK for themselves. I believe that’s the dumb down less human interaction opinion you were referring too.

Now the discrimination part. When you have hams today making comments like this poster it’s almost like those crying about why they didn’t become hams cause of the code. Cries out for, when will they get ride of the code so I can get a ham license then make discriminatory allegations and excuses based on the complexity of the material along with code and bleeding hearts fall into this EVERYBODY gotta win mentality and you don’t even have to work for it. So, let’s DUMB DOWN everything to make it fair, just and safe. The work ethic of work hard for what you want is out the window.

Now the topic at hand was about safety and asking ARRL, or someone to intervene cause in their opinion it saves lives and want to impose their ideals so they can say either I told you this was gonna happen, or look at me and what I did for the community. I’m a humanitarian savior. LOL, PLEASE.

People need to stop thinking selfish, think they need to change the world and the wheel, or IMPOSE their belief system as if other way smarter people didn’t think about repercussion in advance in the past. OF COURSE these expeditions are dangerous. Many other locations have been attempted and accomplished in the past that were just as dangerous and yes each one of those hams, organizations and governments assessed and discussed the dangers. They are still went along with it and this guy THINKS HES THE FIRST TO BRING THIS UP AS IF HE WAS THE ONLY ONE TO THINK OF IT? LOL, maybe it’s narcissism. Idk, lol

KB6QXM 2019-04-05
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
N2RRY wrote: YUP!!! Socialism, liberalism, communism and that pesky snow flake safe zone mentality has finally started to set in the ham radio community. News media and politicians are really REALLY doing a great job at brain washing people. I think the community has spoken and this guy is really regretting his post. Lol

Isn't that evident ever since the "inclusion" crowd of the ARRL to lower the license standards and the elimination of the code because we want to discriminate against anyone that do not have the ability to learn code or to someone who does not understand all of that electronic theory.

Another example is the ARRL pushing all of these instant gratification and ego-stroking contests with little human interaction. At the end, you get a lousy piece of paper, if you are lucky to put in your already cluttered ham shack.

What happened to the days of elmering, tower parties, in-person FCC exams, Send and receive CW, draw schematics. No published multiple choice question pool. 1-year CW only, limited power (75 watts DC input) and crystal controlled license. Can we all say Novice class?

Yes, the "inclusion" crowd has taken over the hobby and has for a while.

They have their talking points.

"If we do not get the numbers up then they will take our frequencies." Yes, maybe 70cm and above, but no one wants HF, not even SWL broadcasters.

Has the ARRL helped with HOAs and CC&R laws?
Has there been a community outreach to the younger crowd to get licensed?

The average age of amateur radio operators is going up not down. When the baby boomer crowd dies out, where will the hobby be then?

Again full disclosure" I have never been nor never will become an ARRL member".
AK4YH 2019-04-05
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
So it was four days late... FLOP.

Gil.
K9CTB 2019-04-05
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
I'm not an avid DXer ... but I really am amazed by some guys who are. Having said that, I once saw a photo of a DXpedition where one of the operators was actually sitting on a ROCK in the water. Not an "island" or a "jetty" or anything I'd associate with the usual DXpedition ... there wasn't even room for his Honda generator .... he had that sitting (and running, I assume) on another rock and had strung an extension cord to his transceiver! My first thought was, "How the heck did he get out there?" then, "Did he carry all that gear" followed by "What the heck is his callsign?" and ultimately, "That just ain't worth it!" Now that safety has come to mind for more hams than just me ... I *do* wonder how far it's gonna go before there actually is a disaster. I hope reasonable heads prevail in the DXpedition scene.

73,
K9CTB
N8FNR 2019-04-05
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
I think that hamfests should be banned. What if I am driving to one and get killed in a car accident?

Turns out that "nearly 1.25 million people die in road crashes each year, on average 3,287 deaths a day."
https://www.asirt.org/safe-travel/road-safety-facts/

Zack
N8FNR

N0AH 2019-04-05
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Nanny State....I assume this is from your childhood? As for 400lb beer drinkers, I'll revise that to 100-400lb beer drinkers- hihi I do agree with the first responder notes-
KJ4DGE 2019-04-05
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
N8PVW is spot on

I agree with his statement entirely. Do not do stupid crap and expect someone to come rescue you cause its "Their job". The PD and EMS and search and rescue folks job is to respond and save lives of people put into situations not of their own making. Not I-T-Ten error folks that think its so cool to go swimming with sharks.
If you want to risk your life alone by jumping out of a plane, then fine. Just don't take anyone with you on the way down.
G8ADD 2019-04-05
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
"Yes Al, it was suppose to be published April 1st....but it's been funnier to read the responses of so many macho 400lb beer drinkers"

Hey! I weigh less than half of that, and although I'm 78 I still like to climb mountains, with or without my rig!

I do like beer, though...
ZENKI 2019-04-05
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
The last thing we need is the "nanny state" intervening in the ham radio hobby. Risks can be managed and its something dx'peditions have been doing for decades. Try watching the saga of multiple climbing teams trying to assault Mount Everest, most fail, some lose their lives and and many make it to the top. Ham radio expeditions are no different and sometimes hams do lose their lives like the infamous Spratley expedition.

If you concerned about yourself thats one thing but dont try and force others into a protective bubble with ridiculous laws and restrictions that limits human endeavor. I thought that was the hallmark of a free society and thats why I have always been envious of countries like the USA compared to huge number of nanny state countries like in Europe and in places like Australia. Be bold and be free and you will succeed.
KA4KOE 2019-04-05
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Just be careful whatever you do. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
G3SEA 2019-04-05
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?

There go the much anticipated DXpeditions to the Moon and Mars !

G3SEA/KH6
N0AH 2019-04-05
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Straight key, Bent Mic, Bubu, I want to pass the exam but can't.... whatever, thank you! Just sitting back and riding the wave!
VE7VJ 2019-04-05
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
I see no one has clued into the time of year or read the comments. But the macho RW hand wringers are pouncing full force :)
K6CRC 2019-04-05
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Likely more Hams have died in tower accidents in one year than in all recorded DXpeditions.
Should ARRL ban towers?
N2RRA 2019-04-05
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
YUP!!! Socialism, liberalism, communism and that pesky snow flake safe zone mentality has finally started to set in the ham radio community. News media and politicians are really REALLY doing a great job at brain washing people. I think the community has spoken and this guy is really regretting his post. Lol
STRAIGHTKEY 2019-04-05
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
N0AH, radio amateur, professional troll.
KB6QXM 2019-04-05
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
With the ARRL's track record, I would not expect them to even discuss this subject.

Full disclosure: I have NEVER been nor NEVER will be a member of the ARRL.
N0CEL 2019-04-05
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
I was not aware that the ARRL/FCC had jurisdiction (legal, or otherwise) over DXPeditions...where they operate, when, who is paying for it, y'all get where I am going with this. As a now retired 1st Responder, I can play Devil's Advocate here, also...some of these journey's have been perilous - no denying this. Just my *2 Cents*. Safe Journeys to all who dedicate themselves to certain aspects of this awesome hobby. It's just a hobby, folks...time to just take a breath. 73 and hope to work someone *Rare*! Mr. Carl de NØCEL *dit* *dit*
K6RIM 2019-04-04
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
:)
N0AH 2019-04-04
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Yes Al, it was suppose to be published April 1st....but it's been funnier to read the responses of so many macho 400lb beer drinkers! Hihi. 73
K8QV 2019-04-04
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
I guess everybody needs to stop watching extreme sports. After all, who would take any risks if nobody was watching. Right? There are adrenaline junkies, couch potatoes and lots in between. Let no one tell you what you can or cannot do, m'kay?
KA2DDX 2019-04-04
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
If someone wants to step onto a glacier capped island in the middle of nowhere, with no guarantee of getting off the island, then all I can say is "Dress Warm".

F8WBD 2019-04-04
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Reply
by N8PVW on April 4, 2019
I absolutely agree with what you all are saying up to one point. If you get your butt out there and you get in trouble then get yourself out...........

----------

I agree with N8PVW. Many people engage in activities which put themselves at risk... that's ok. But if things go wrong expect their governments to bail them out. Whether a rescue from a mountain top or a political danger zone. They believe their governments should be prepared to pay a sizable ransom for their release. That is not ok.
AB4KA 2019-04-04
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
I don't see where it's up to the ARRL (or anyone else) to say "Don't go there!". If an individual (or group) makes a decision to do something dangerous, that's on them. No one else is to blame if something goes wrong. If I know something is dangerous, and I decide to do it anyway, how is that anyone else's fault?
N8PVW 2019-04-04
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
I absolutely agree with what you all are saying up to one point. If you get your butt out there and you get in trouble then get yourself out. You do realize that SAR people risk and loose their lives every day trying to save some dumbass that decided to push the envelope as little too far. I know. I was one of those search and rescue persons for many years. Used to love the ice fishing season on lake Erie. Getting woke up at 0 dark 30 and having to risk my life and the life of our crew because some dumbass wanted to cut a hole in the ice and fish for perch. By all means. Do your own thing. But when things go guts up please get your own ass of trouble. And don't even go their with the "you got paid for it BS." We were their to save lives of innocent victims not idiots but we did that anyway. And good men died.
N8AUC 2019-04-04
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Quote:
Arguments claiming collective, as opposed to individual, moral responsibility in human endeavors need to be scrutinized carefully.
End Quote

You not only hit the nail squarely on the head, you drove it clear through the board.

Well said.
NI0C 2019-04-04
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
I made modest donations to both of the recent aborted expeditions to Bouvet, and plan to contribute to future expeditions to rare and difficult DXCC entities.

Bouvet has been on the DXCC list since 1963. It is obviously a difficult place to get to and activate. PA0ABM has a nice website on DXCC history which includes an article summarizing past expeditions to Bouvet, some successful and some not.

Just as success is not guaranteed for activating many of the rarer DXCC entities, there is no guaranteed place on the DXCC Honor Roll for anyone.

Arguments claiming collective, as opposed to individual, moral responsibility in human endeavors need to be scrutinized carefully. A few sentences thrown together in an eHam "article" don't cut it for me.
WO7R 2019-04-04
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Ah, yes, the predictable song of "we had nothing to do with it."

Simple question: If we _did_ take Bouvet off the list, how many DXpeditions would go there?

Answer: None. Only IOTA would care and they can't afford to fund it. So, nobody would go. Risk (from that source) goes to zero.

Now, these DXpeditioners, these adventurers _do_ carry a great fraction of the responsibility. They _are_volunteering to go. That much is true. And yes, you can die putting up a tower on (say) Aruba or something. There is no zero risk DXing. However, that level of risk is nowhere near as grave as going to some of these places.

But these adventurers are _only_ going because the rest of us made places like 3Y/B "valuable" by some arbitrary list we published over the years. We, the DXing community, create 100 per cent of the demand. Heck, in the vast majority of cases we _fund_ a great fraction of the trip.

Honest stay-at-home DXers should own our role in this risk taking. We do not take the risks, but we motivate them 100 per cent.

We can, in fact, remove this particular set of risks if we want to. Apparently, we don't want to and _then_ most of us want to pretend we had nothing to do with it.

The track record for these things is actually fairly good. But, there have been a lot of close calls of late. Two Bouvet DXpeds didn't finish. The VP8/S VP8/G expedition had two opportunities (one on each island) for loss of life, though they managed it.

Maybe that part of the world is getting more dangerous. How many Shackleford type adventures do we want to fund for a DXCC that could instead not have any of this?
K6AER 2019-04-04
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Paul,

When did you first notice your shadow?
KB1GMX 2019-04-04
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Its not ARRLs fault or responsibility.

Life is a dangerous activity and no mater what you still die. Doing it with class, dignity, or just in the pursuit of the difficult or seemingly impossible gives life its substance.

I find I can take the posting seriously as that is an example of nannies wanting to control others and their freedom. Get over yourself, please.

Allison
K6RIM 2019-04-04
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Assume this is meant to be an April Fool post.

73,

Al, K6RIM
K0RO 2019-04-04
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
...oh, and Neil Armstrong, forget the moon. It's just too dangerous...
N8AUC 2019-04-04
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
I could not disagree with the original poster more.

These folks are doing what they want to do, and living their life the way they want to. Telling them they can't do that "for their own safety", is quite simply wrong.

Note that I am not a DXer. I do not go out of my way to chase these guys on the air. It's just not my thing. I do enjoy operating outdoors, and I absolutely love Field Day. It combines two of my favorite things, playing radio and camping out. So what's next? Are you going to try to ban Field Day because someone might get sunburn, or a bug bite? Hint: DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT!

Basically, a DXpedition is like Field Day on steroids. It combines all the aspects of Field Day, with the adventure of travel to far off places. Volcanic islands in the southern ocean are hard to get to, and yes, there is some danger. But, so what? No one forces these people to do what they're doing. They are doing it willingly, of their own desire, and I doubt they'd be doing it if they didn't really enjoy it. What right does ANYONE have to deny these folks what they enjoy doing? Hint: NONE!

All this nanny crap is really getting annoying.
K4PIH 2019-04-04
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
All for some little crappy piece of paper to hang on your love you wall!

The only paper that really matters on your wall is your FCC license.
KE4OH 2019-04-04
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
I don't belong to the ARRL and I don't care if a rare DX location is recognized by the League, or any other body. I'd still work that DX if I could.

I'm tired of somebody trying to regulate every action in the name of safety. If the author is truly concerned about loss of life, go try to stop a war somewhere and leave DXpeditions alone.
W1ITT 2019-04-04
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
Uncle Sam ended the Draft decades ago. Nowadays it's pretty simple. If you don't want to go, don't get on the boat. If you have personal reservations that the guys who actually do spend wads of money and risk life and limb to activate a "dangerous" DX entity, then you can register your vote by refusing to work their station. That'll teach 'em!
K4LSX 2019-04-04
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
What?
The “nanny” has arrived in ham radio!
And I don’t give a hoot about DXpeditions. I was convinced many years ago that one (or two) could put two radios at ANY two locations and communicate between them, no problem. So why the bother and this tremendous risk? As someone long ago said when asked about climbing Everest, “because it is there”.
KJ4DGE 2019-04-04
RE: Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
I agree. What is the the FCC to do about a HAM that spends his own money, flies himself and his radios to some remote island in the middle of nowhere and gets bitten by a sea snake in 3 feet of water and no chance of surviving? Hell yes, ban driving while were at it and save millions of lives from car accidents!

People do risky things. White water rafting comes to mind, lots of fun as long as you don't flip the raft. Ban that also?

Every time you get on a boat you have a chance of drowning. I personally will stay away from certain islands in the Soloman's due to the indigenous giants with six fingers and toes. Those darn giants just don't appreciate having wire strung in their palm trees!
G8ADD 2019-04-04
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
So what is your next crusade? Ban rock climbing and high mountaineering because people die if things go wrong? Ban all adventure sports for that matter. Then there is car and motorcycle racing, obviously dangerous, ban it! How about surfing where there is a risk of encountering sharks? Ban it! How about hunting accidents - ban it! Then there is the death and injury toll on the roads - ban travel. In fact, getting born is dangerous, ban procreation!

DX-peditioning to exotic and difficult to reach places is just as much an adventure sport as climbing Everest, you must leave those who enjoy such adventures to manage the risks themselves, that is their right.
AK4YH 2019-04-04
Time for the ARRL to Prevent Disaster?
They risk life and limb, so what? They do it willingly and knowingly. You can stay in your shack all cozy and warm, grow fat and old, or not... I personally applaud any initiative to get people outside, and if it means answering that call for adventure and accepting a certain level of risk, so be it. Nothing is free in life. Everyone should do something extra-ordinary in their life, at their level, get beyond their comfort level; what's the alternative, really?
We have enough regulations, prohibitions for "our well being..." We don't need any more. Why not promote adventure? The ARRL, while I disagree with lots of their activities, is giving people an excuse to fill a need for personal achievement, I say bravo. Personally I'd rather die trying to reach a distant island than choking on my food at a retirement home... To each his own.
Let's not discourage people from living life.

Gil.