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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?

John Dvoracek (KE5C) on September 16, 2005
View comments about this article!

This past weekend, "9-11" 2005, several of us in the central Texas area heard unusual pulsing or popping signals on the bands, especially on 7 MHz. I had a QSO with a Oklahoma station on 7 MHz Sunday evening who had just talked to a Florida station about the same thing, and both had also heard such signals.

The fellow in Oklahoma thought it sounded a lot like the old Russian woodpecker (over-the-horizon radar). If I hear it again, I will try to record it, but it did sound at least similar to the old woodpecker.

At first I think we all worried that BPL was revenging us already, but could we have heard The Relocatable Over-The-Horizon Radar (ROTHR) for Homeland Security described in this Raytheon pdf brochure?

The AN/TPS-71 ROTHR is also discussed on the Federation of American Scientists' web site.

Did anyone else hear anything unusual on 7 MHz recently?

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by ZS1DX on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
It causes QRM here in ZS1 too. In a recent ARRL Contest Rate Sheet:

"New sea-surface radars operating in the HF amateur bands are cropping
up around the world. A particularly obnoxious intruder is found at
the lower end of 40 meters, wiping out ham signals as high as 7.100
MHz around Asia."
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by KC0BUS on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Someone at our club meeting last night said he heard it. However, I have not.
 
Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by K0FNI on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
The spectrum analysis as displayed on the HAARP web page shows a very strong signal around 7 Mhz. There are also strong signals on other portions of the Bands. I don't think this is HAARP but just a recieved signal through their massive antenna system.
Dan K0FNI
 
Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by KE5C on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
when present, this qrn has been s9 and really trashes 40 meters. aa5tb has a webpage with audio (sorry, you'll have to cut and paste into your browser since eham does not enable html on replies):

http://webpages.charter.net/aa5tb/sig14.html

an excerpt of my first experience with this qrn: "(snip) last night just outside of gatesville [texas] i was on nu5d's station. sometime before the start of the sprint we heard something like that on 40 meters - we looked at each other like, what???. i don't know how long it lasted. we went to 80, then to 20 to tune his amp for the sprint, but didn't listen closely other than to be sure we weren't right on top of anyone. by the time we got back to 40 it was gone.

i just (0320 z) qso'ed k5gr in oklahoma after i heard him talking to a florida station (who i couldn't copy) on 7027. they both heard strange noises tonight on 40. k5gr described it like the old russian woodpecker, and what i heard last night did sound reminiscent but not perfectly like that. f3nb called me right afterwards, and i tried to ask him if he was hearing any different noise on 40, and he said just a lot of qrn, but i don't know how good he is with english. (snip)"

73, ke5c
 
Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by KO4NX on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Hello All:

If it is the AN/TPS-71, I am afraid there is not much that can be done about it. I know for a fact there are a few of these systems in operating in South America and placed there by American defense contractors. If you search in monster.com, or Washingtonjobs.com you will find that Raytheon and BAE are recruiting American personal to deploy to these sites in South America to man this very system.

There are many reasons why you would want to operate these systems in remote locations in South America, but I think one of the main reasons this location is desirable is due to the fact rules governing the operation of such a system in the host country are not as stringent as the ones found here in the United States. Typically the host nation enjoys some additional benefits to having such a system located in their country. First and foremost, they probably receive a ton of money from our government to have the system in their country. I would also wager that some of the data being collected from these systems is being shared with the host nation at little or no cost.

This may explain why most of the complaints of this type of interference are coming from the Southern States.



73


Rich, AJ3G
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by KT8K on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Seems like I remember, back in the Russian woodpecker days, talking with other hams who had synchronized their keyers with the woodpecker while sending continuous strings of dits (testing their full break-in transceivers, of course) and found that the woodpecker operators would change frequency and move out of the ham band, apparently seeing the interference on their screens.
Hmmmmm ...
Good reception & 73 to all de kt8k - Tim
 
Does it sound like an old rotary phone dialing?  
by KF6IIU on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Does this sound sort-of like what you used to hear when someone picked up a rotary phone and started dialing while you were on the line? I hear that all the time on 20, 15, and 10. I think it's more of a local signal though.

If it's the woodpecker-like sound on the low end of 40, yes, it's those pesky sea-scanning radars. A couple of years ago they tracked one down to Central or South America (?) where is was being run by a US contractor, and it got fixed. I think that one was running on a higher frequency.
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W9WHE-II on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Well, given the realities of the dangerious world we live in (North Korea, Syria, Iran announcing that it will share nuke technology with other islamic nations) I think we need to accept interference caused by OTH radar to Ham radio. The former is essential, the latter is not. So, if it is OTH Radar....I can accept it.

W9WHE
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by WA9SVD on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
by W9WHE-II on September 16, 2005 Well, given the realities of the dangerious world we live in (North Korea, Syria, Iran announcing that it will share nuke technology with other islamic nations) I think we need to accept interference caused by OTH radar to Ham radio. The former is essential, the latter is not. So, if it is OTH Radar....I can accept it.

W9WHE
=================

I'm afraid I must humbly disagree. While I'm all for "Homeland Security," there should be some limits. Not to get into the politics too much, if OTH RADAR is the cause, there ARE plenty of frequencies the Government could legitimately use without using the narrow slices of HF spectrum allotted to Amateurs. And while "Homeland Security" considerations are important, so are International Treaties governing frequency allocations for Amateurs and others; if OUR government violates those treaties (either inside or outside our borders) then why should any other country not feel free to violate the same?
I'm sorry, but I can't accept it. It does NOT belong on Amateur frequencies, as many of them ARE International allocations, not just for use by the U.S. but world-wide. The excuse of anything or everything the government wants to do in the name of "Homeland Security" is wearing thin. While worrying about terrorists with nukes coming across the border from Mexico, they let New Orleans and the other Gulf Coast areas languish in misery, chaos and death. But THAT is now under the auspices of "Homeland Security."
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by X-WB1AUW on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I haven't heard it.

My guess is that it is normal strange noises rather than Russian woodpecker.

I pulled this from a new article (on eHam):
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/15sep_solarminexplodes.htm?list68614

Would guess what you heard is from the sun.

73
bob
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6TH on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
.

Let me explain how this Woody Wood Pecker works.

These are very high powered transmitters in and around 1 million watts output using a pulse rate of about 10.

It is similiar to low frequency radar and sends out a big signal and is looking for any type of missle that is launched. When the missile is launched this signal "echo" is reflected back to a receiver and is recorded. The signal coming back is looking for a :Salient" (projecting, protruding) echo.

When a missile is launched, the heat and gasses cause a ionization of the ionosphere (A region of the earth's atmosphere where ionization caused by incoming solar radiation affects the transmission of radio waves. It extends from a height of 70 kilometers (43 miles) to 400 kilometers (250 miles) above the surface.(The formation of or separation into ions by heat, electrical discharge, radiation, or chemical reaction).

Seeing this on a scope and then recorded, there has been positive proof of a launching of a missile of a sort.

You may even call this a early warning system, but missiles travel so fast, it may be over before one can notify another. At the least, one can see one has been aloft.

.;
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W4VR on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I've been hearing the woodpecker between 7130 and 7190 kHz every night for the past several weeks. It's roughly 60 kHz wide and very disruptive to amateur communications in that band segment. Last night I had one ham in Michigan with a rotatable 3-element yagi DF it to somewhere in SE USA; also had a ham in Arkansas with a 4-square antenna DF it to SE USA...possible Caribbean area too. I've complained about it to FCC and ARRL; ARRL responded with a question mark and have not heard back from FCC. The ARRL seemed to think it was coming from ITU Region 3, but that is definitely not the case. This woodpecker turns on and off several times every evening. Hopefully someone will track it down and identify it and take appropriate action.
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6EM on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Since you've DF'ed it to be in the SE US, it might be this:

The FCC issued a Spectial Temporaty Authorization to Time Domain Systems, of Huntsville to use their Ultra-Wideband Radar in conjunction with Katrina search and rescue. It normally, of course, is not permitted to operate in the US. Only in DOD systems outside the country.

Lee
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6TH on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
.
Hopefully someone will track it down and identify it and take appropriate action.
=======================================================


For the good of all, I suggest leaving it alone and don't bug the FCC. They have enought to do without more added.

Just forget that it exists. Take heed.

Listen to and consider good for all.

.:
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6TH on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
.
by W6EM
Since you've DF'ed it to be in the SE US, it might be this:

W6EM you are guessing, stop stiring unknown knowledge.

Find the real facts and then tell us all about it.

.:
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6EM on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
W6TH Says:

"W6EM you are guessing, stop stiring unknown knowledge.

Find the real facts and then tell us all about it."

Hey, Vito:

It was just a hypothesis. Remember what those are/were? Or, has it been too long? Since I see you live in Rosamond, maybe the Mojave heat helped you forget.

I thought that perhaps those who have heard the interference could possibly ask Time Domain Systems to help them identify it. Since it supposedly has been DF'ed to the SE US.

Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL.

 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by G3SEA on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!

It's been very strong in Hawaii even on an indoor antenna.

Here in the Pacific 40m has many odd signals, codes,fishing boat nets etc :O

KH6/G3SEA
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by AA5TB on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
The Ultra-Wideband Radars that I've studied typically have many GHz bandwidth, not 60 kHz, and are of short range. They do have unique abilities however, like imaging through brick walls, mine detection, etc..

The present 60 kHz emission under discussion has been reported with strong signal levels in other parts of the world.

Steve - AA5TB


http://webpages.charter.net/aa5tb/sig14.html
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by N0TONE on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
From the west coast, there has been an impulse interference (much faster rep rate than the audio sample reference above) audible from about 7030 to 7090 kHz every night. The signal has exixted for more than one year, and DFing places it somewhere in Asia.

This is not news - and there is no need to attempt to stir up a hornet's nest about "Homeland Security". We on the west coast tolerate it, as it seems to originate from a region where that frequency is not exclusively amateur.

AM
 
Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by NT4XT on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
It's been strong in metro Atlanta. Seems like I recall hearing it on numerous different evenings much before Katrina, though.
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by KE5C on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
> This is not news - and there is no need to attempt to stir up a hornet's nest about "Homeland Security". We on the west coast tolerate it, as it seems to originate from a region where that frequency is not exclusively amateur.

first, it is news here in 5-land. second, i'm happy for you that you can tolerate it. clearly you are not a cw operator nor are you are not running ares winlink traffic in and out of lousianna. third, the sacred words "homeland security" do not justify operating practices over and above the law of the land, that is, current fcc regulations and iaru agreements. btw, who are you? why do you identify with some anonymous signature "notone"?
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6EM on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Steve, AA5TB Says:

"The Ultra-Wideband Radars that I've studied typically have many GHz bandwidth, not 60 kHz, and are of short range. They do have unique abilities however, like imaging through brick walls, mine detection, etc..

The present 60 kHz emission under discussion has been reported with strong signal levels in other parts of the world."

TNX. If their UWB is continuous, and not segmented or notched across its wide bandwidth, then its not their stuff I guess. Interesting topic. I'll just watch from afar.

73,

Lee
W6EM


 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6TH on September 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
.

This is not news - and there is no need to attempt to stir up a hornet's nest about "Homeland Security". We on the west coast tolerate it, as it seems to originate from a region where that frequency is not exclusively amateur.
=======================================================
You "got" that right. What is more important to me is to find out why those with power can't seem to find a proper way to use it.
=====================================================

For you my friennd Lee W6EM, it wasn't the heat from Rosamond, Ca that fits my personallty, though our personalities differed, we got along as friends. but what
I picked up when living in Orlando, Fla. You should have witnessed that of the Florida past. You would have liked me to the extent that you would welcome me by kissing me on all four cheeks.

73 my friend, W6TH
.:
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6EM on September 17, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
W6TH, Vito, Said:
=======================================================
You "got" that right. What is more important to me is to find out why those with power can't seem to find a proper way to use it.
=====================================================

For you my friennd Lee W6EM, it wasn't the heat from Rosamond, Ca that fits my personallty, though our personalities differed, we got along as friends. but what
I picked up when living in Orlando, Fla. You should have witnessed that of the Florida past. You would have liked me to the extent that you would welcome me by kissing me on all four cheeks."

Vito: With all due respect, why would someone with the solid RF background like you heve not want to determine the source of the interference and have it stopped?

Unlike the "NOTONE" poster, you certainly must remember that the only part of 40M that is not part of all other IARU countries is above 7.150. So, even outside the US, experimentation in that segment by non amateurs is contrary to international treaty and the laws of most all countries including ours.

You aren't couching for your DOD contractor neighbors at China Lake and Edwards are you?

All I do for Tropicana here in Bradenton is to call the place "Tropicanaville" once in a while.

Lee
W6EM

 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6EM on September 17, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Oops. That didn't sound quite right. I meant to say that non-amateur operation in the 40M segment below 7.150, namely 7.0-7.150 would be unlawful.
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W4VR on September 17, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
...more on the woodpecker on 40. It can't be coming from Region 3...the California stations hear it loudest coming from the East with their beams...and it's not long-path at that time of the night. It's too narrow in bandwidth to be an ultra-wideband radar or spread spectrum device. It looks more like a radiolocation/navigation device on the spectrum scope. It was there long before Katrina. It may be experimental...and the reason why the FCC is non-responsive when a complaint is filed. But, why they would allow such a device in the amateur band is beyond me....maybe the regulators are testing us in preparation for BPL QRM.
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6TH on September 17, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
.
Vito: With all due respect, why would someone with the solid RF background like you heve not want to determine the source of the interference and have it stopped?
=====================================================

Simply, it is not our business to interfere with those we have been paying taxes to do the work for us. I can assure you that the FCC is well versed and informed on what is happening on these frequencies, then why should we as hams get involved.

The FCC does have sophisticated equipment to cover these grounds, far superior to what we as hams have; plus they have greater authority; the power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine, or judge.

What has security to do with a RF engineer, when our own congress is having the problem, we are not the cause, but we are the effect.

I am sure you as a engineer can fully understand.

73 my friend, W6TH.

.:
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6EM on September 17, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
W6TH, Vito Says:
"Simply, it is not our business to interfere with those we have been paying taxes to do the work for us. I can assure you that the FCC is well versed and informed on what is happening on these frequencies, then why should we as hams get involved.

The FCC does have sophisticated equipment to cover these grounds, far superior to what we as hams have; plus they have greater authority; the power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine, or judge."

I think you are old enough to recognize our responsibilities as citizens. It IS our business to get involved when our government does not properly act as it should. That includes obediance of its laws, and proper law enforcement. Would this thread even exist IF the FCC had been aware of this interference and taken steps to stop it? Probably not.

You should read more federal law. Government telecommunications are coordinated by the National Telecommunications and Information Agency, which is part of the Department of Commerce. Even the NTIA has no right, under law, to assign amateur frequencies to DoD contractor experimenters. Frankly, I doubt that they did.

Raytheon, if that's who it is causing this, needs to be told to cease and desist. At least on the amateur bands.

NTIA could suggest some new frequencies for Raytheon, perhaps. How about a piece of 5.5 to 5.7 MHz? That way, they might interfere with HF aircraft communications by the FAA. That would make the newspapers, I'm sure......

DoD contractors aren't above the law, Vito. Even if you seem to think so.

Lee
W6EM




 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6TH on September 17, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
.

W6EM says:
I think you are old enough to recognize our responsibilities as citizens. It IS our business to get involved when our government does not properly act as it should.
=======================================================
I think you are old enough to recognize our responsibilities as citizens. Why do you keep putting the same ones back into office? The best and easiest way is to vote them out. If you as citizens don't like what, how this country is controlled, you have the right to form another form of union as you so desire. Read your Constitution and the Bill of rights.

All that I may add Lee W6EM is live free, yes, live free or die.

.:
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W5HTW on September 17, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
<< by X-WB1AUW on September 16, 2005
I haven't heard it.

My guess is that it is normal strange noises rather than Russian woodpecker.

I pulled this from a new article (on eHam):
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/15sep_solarminexplodes.htm?list68614

Would guess what you heard is from the sun.

73
bob>>

Me, too. The noises appear to be cosmic. I am not sure what political leanings the sun, El So, has, so I don't know if this is anti-extablishment or not. But it is coupled to sunspot activity. The "ignition" type of popping is radiation from the Sun.

Various squeaks, squawks, squeals, also are from the sun. As the activity decreases, so will these noises.

This same type of noise can also be heard coming from Jupiter, but as a much, much lower level.

The "bad guys" are The Solar Banditos.

Ed
 
Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W4JLE on September 17, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I note that like the old woodpecker, a long call for H5HHH at 20 wpm causes it to qrt.
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by AH6RR on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Noise from the sun??? not at 20 over s9 like it is here in Hawaii OM. Every morning when I turm on my rig on 40 in our sub-band of 7.075-7.100 its' 20 over at my QTH makes grayline in the morning stink. This is man made not cosmic debris'

Roland AH6RR
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by AH6RR on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Oh yea It has been going on for over 6 months now.
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6EM on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
W6TH Says:
"Why do you keep putting the same ones back into office? The best and easiest way is to vote them out. If you as citizens don't like what, how this country is controlled, you have the right to form another form of union as you so desire. Read your Constitution and the Bill of rights.

All that I may add Lee W6EM is live free, yes, live free or die."

Vito: I'm not from New Hampshire (their motto), but I agree. However, finding candidates to vote for that aren't apparatchiks is quite a challenge, what with the likes of Halliburton, Raytheon, Boeing, etc.

Our country is supposed to operate within the confines of its laws and rules. Not according to the whims of politicians or profit motivations of defense contractors.

The ROTHR PDF is quite descriptive.

73,

Lee
W6EM
 
Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by WA3IRJ on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I have been hearing it on 40 meters. I am near a Naval air station..maybe that has some bearing? Because it is a short duration..very loud signal. It seems to scan through the band, rather than on one frequency. I have noticed it for a few months.
73
JohnB
KB3LXY
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6TH on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
.
W6EM says:
Our country is supposed to operate within the confines of its laws and rules. Not according to the whims of politicians or profit motivations of defense contractors.
=======================================================
This I agree. That is why we have the Constitution for all to abide by, yet the voters continue to put the evil ones in office. Lets face the facts that the whole of congress are a pack of thieves and is well known as the den of thieves.

As an example: Bush has mentioned 32 times the wording of freedom in one of his speeches and yet signed and put into law The Patriot Act. Looks like the teachers of law schools are not telling their students what the wording of freedom means.

The Constitution mentions to form a more perfect union and explains there is really no need for a government. I don't know what our forefathers were thinking of going back to British control, but with the American way.

All in all, the American people can make a change with peaceful ways and yet continue to let the powers, that control, do not know how to put their power to good and continue to make enemies around the world.

Freedom is the peoples choice and the way to bring back freedom is entirely up to the people of These United States and not our den of thieves in congress.

Voting is one peaceful way, by cleaning house. That will be a very good start to get rid of this high class government welfare we have running our country.

Live free or die or continue to live on our death bed.

.:
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by WA3IRJ on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
...might be surface scanning radar. As I know we have an increased interest in it. As the "older" Diesel/electric subs that are part of certain navies...are a bear to hear by our modern tech sub hunters.So it would be a value to see the surface a bit more. If that it what it is...I can live with it.
73
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6TH on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
.
ROTHR..... Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?

After reading the ROTHR and Raytheon, I find it much needed, although I believe it concerns more than just the war on drugs. As I see it , it is a war on the world, but more on the prevention of such towards the US of A.

Should it stop a nuclear coming from Iran or China or such, I certainly am all for it at any cost. All this cost only increases our deficit and nothing more.
If we burn all of our paper money and none remains, so will our deficit and that would be zero No paper money, no deficit.

.:
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6EM on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
W6TN, Vito Says:
"Voting is one peaceful way, by cleaning house. That will be a very good start to get rid of this high class government welfare we have running our country."

Vito: In total agreement here. Preserve our freedoms and stop the waste that benefits their hip pockets.

Lee

 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6TH on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
.

Here is a sample of how "sneakey" our power leaders work:

Hey boys, lets increase the minimum wage for the low paying folks. All in favor say "eye". its done fellow congress men and now we have more tax money for ourseles. Wage increases , increases the income taxes.

WOW!!! says the business folks, now we have to layoff some workers as we can't afford to pay that increase.

Time to think and do something about the Den of Thieves.

Wake up America.

.:
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W9WHE-II on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
W6TH writes:

"Bush has mentioned 32 times the wording of freedom in one of his speeches and yet signed and put into law The Patriot Act. Looks like the teachers of law schools are not telling their students what the wording of freedom means"

What "freedoms" do you think the Patriot Act takes? Did you know that just about EVERYTHING the Patriot Act authorizes, is already law in the criminal arena? And that includes the issuance of Administrative Subpeoneas? (So the feds can see what you checked out in the library)

The REAL problem, is that the propigandists from Pravda lost their jobs when the Soviet Union collapsed. Unfortunately, they took jobs with the far-left websites like Move-on.org and Democratic underground. They now propigate hate, fear mongering and intollerance that uninformed readers now mindlessly repeat.
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6TH on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
.
W9WHE-II
I won't go into too much detail, but then you agree that one can be locked up and put in jail without a subpoena,a writ requiring appearance in court to give testimony. a proper cause, and held without a trial, whether guilty or not.

I can go on with more, but guess it better for you to read the Patriotic Act, or better yet, have some one read it to you. as it may be over your head for the understanding of the Patriotic Act.

I went to the airport for a flight by plane and showed both my drivers license and my ID card, had to strip to almost naked and even show my private parts, before I was allowed to enter the aircraft.

How is that for freedom?

You are the type that the Federal Government is never wrong and that is why our country is in the state of afairs that it is in today.

.:
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6EM on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
W6TH Says:
"I can go on with more, but guess it better for you to read the Patriotic Act, or better yet, have some one read it to you. as it may be over your head for the understanding of the Patriotic Act."

Vito: Jonathan KNOWS ALL about the law. Just like Ashgraft who HAD to have the Patriot Act to invade our privacy. He says that rights to invade our privacy already existed. Only if a judge reviewed the request of the agency to snoop. That it had probable cause. The Patriot Act took that away. Although, a recent decision in favor of the ACLU at least upholds a librarian's right to keep borrower and book loan information from them.



"You are the type that the Federal Government is never wrong and that is why our country is in the state of afairs that it is in today."


Exactly. He stumps for the Halliburton pair and thinks he's getting less government. Wow, is he mistaken. WHE-EEE's sitting back applauding the theft of our freedoms and our economy stuffed into their deferred compensation fund. (HAL in 2000 at 15. Now in the mid 60's)

Sadly, the media and pundits he shouts about are at least gutsy enough to criticize the crooks. I may not always agree with what the alternative media has to say, but thank God they're there.

Besides, Jonathan, we need to employ more ex-Soviet figures. Why? Well, I'll let you figure that one out.

Lee
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W9WHE-II on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
OK, WE NEED TO SEPERATE FACT FROM FICTION, ONE AT A TIME:

1) "You agree that one can be locked up and put in jail without a subpoena". I assume you mean "without a warrant". NO WARRANT WAS EVER NEEDED TO BEGIN WITH. ANY cop can arrest you, ANY time, with just probable cause to believe that a crime was committed. NEVER NEEDED ARREST WARRANTS TO ARREST YOU.


2" [no] writ requiring appearance in court to give testimony".
I assume you mean a writ of Habeas Corpus. Or do you mean the right to subpeonea witnesses to testify in your defense? My friend, the Patriot Act does not suspend the writ of Habeas Corpus or the right to subpeonea witnesses. If you are a US citizen, arrested in the USA, for any crime except terrorism, you still have the writ and subpeonea. However, if you are a non-citizen, captured on foregin soil, fighting the US millitary, you do not get US constitutional rights.


3)"and held without a trial".
ONLY if you are accused of terrorism and/or helping terrorists kill Americans. But then again, you might be part of the Ward Churchill crowd that thinks "we deserve it".

4) "I can go on with more, but guess it better for you to read the Patriotic Act, or better yet, have some one read it to you. as it may be over your head for the understanding of the Patriotic Act"
Yes, of course. You are a Liberal and I am just a lawyer. Of course you know more and are smarter then I am! After-all, anyone that disagrees with you is, as Teerrraza Hines-kerry put it, "stupid".

5) "I went to the airport for a flight by plane and showed both my drivers license and my ID card, had to strip to almost naked and even show my private parts, before I was allowed to enter the aircraft. How is that for freedom?"
And what freedom did you loose? The freedom to carry a weapon on board? the freedom to travel? Oh yes, much better that that terrorists got weapons on board or blew up the plane with you on it, because people like you are upset at being searched. SHEEESH! If the plane did get blown up, people like you would be the first to blame the feds for not doing enough!

6) "You are the type that the Federal Government is never wrong and that is why our country is in the state of afairs that it is in today"
No sir, Terrorists like Osama Bin Laden, backed by un-informed people like you and the anti-american ACLU are to blame for that!

W9WHE

 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W9WHE-II on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Ok so some homeland security radar interfers with your $1.10/yr hobby. Better we dump the radar? Better we take an incomming missle? Better we let Terrorists kill Americans?

What is wrong with people like you? You demand that the federal government protect you from everything, terrorists, hurricaines, poverty, illness, homelessness, but INSIST on tying the goverment's hands. Hello?

W9WHE
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6TH on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
.

W9WHE

If our Congress had abided by the Constitution and the Bill or Rights and used their power for the good of the American people, we would not have had any problem whatsoever with terror.

The power of Congress brought on this killing of our American people and not the people. Bush and Congress also made it more difficult for the American people by invading Iraq and having our military slaughtered by these savages.

The Bush says that the Katrina was the biggest disaster we had in America, in my opinion Bush is the biggest disaster we have in America.

You mention that you are a lawyer, well from what I gather, you also are a member of the Den of Thieves.

.:
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W9WHE-II on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
W6TH writes:

"The power of Congress brought on this killing of our American people and not the people'

Just as I suspected. You fall into the Ward Churchill crowd that believes that "we deserve 9/11. We brought it on ourselves". We are too powerful. Its not fair that we are the world's lone superpower".

Well, you America-hating cooks just amaze me. I thought all of you promised to move to Canada when Bush was elected. What is the matter, can't find Canada? Hint: North.


"You mention that you are a lawyer, well from what I gather, you also are a member of the Den of Thieves"

Typical Liberal intollerance. Anybody that disagrees with you is "stupid" or a "crook". Sir, your arrogance is only exceeded by your ignorance. On behalf of the American people...I invite you to move to Canada. Please.
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W9WHE-II on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Here is a quote from W6TH's website:

"For Those That Fought For It, Freedom Has A Taste And A Meaning, The Protected Will Never Know"

Pity that in your advanced age, you have forgotten what that means. While I thank you for your service to your country (the one you now hate) I pity you for loss of direction.

 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6TH on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
.
W9WHE says
Pity that in your advanced age, you have forgotten what that means. While I thank you for your service to your country (the one you now hate) I pity you for loss of direction.
===================================================
I love my country, just that our power force is getting us folks into a mess that makes enemies of the world.

I fought for freedom with World War 2 and we as our powers say, we are still fighting for freedom. Seems an never ending core.

You as a lawyer have forgotten the word Liberty so I am sending you an expanaition of what Liberty amounts to:

LIBERTY:

1. The condition of being free from restriction or control.
2. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
3. The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor.

Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.

I just love this part:

Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
The liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.

God Bless America, the land of the brave and the free. The land of Liberty.

In God We Trust.

W6TH
.:

.:
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W9WHE-II on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
W6TH writes:

"You as a lawyer have forgotten the word Liberty so I am sending you an expanaition of what Liberty amounts to:

LIBERTY:

1. The condition of being free from restriction or control.

TOTAL RESTRICTION FROM ALL CONTROL IS CALLED ANARCHY, JUNGLE RULE AND TOTAL CHAOS. YOU MUST BE RESTRICTED FROM YELLING "FIRE" IN A THEATER, FROM DRIVING 160 MPH AND FROM ACCOSTING CHILDREN. TO BE A CIVILIZED SIOCIETY, WE MUST HAVE LIMITS AND RESTRICTIONS, OR WE HAVE NOTHING. AS A MAN THAT FOUGHT HITLER, PITY YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT.

2. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
THAT'S FREEDOM OF SPEECH. YOU WILL NOTICE THAT NO GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL HAS SANCTIONED YOU FOR YOUR REMARKS HERE.

3. Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control. JUST WHO CONTROLS YOU? YES, WE KNOW, YOU THINK IT IS "UNJUST" THAT THE GOVERNMENT CONDUCTS SEARCHES TO PREVENT TERRORISTS FROM GETTING WEAPONS ON PLANES.



Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
The liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.

OK, SO CAN YOU PLEASE IDENTIFY THE FREEDOM CONTAINED IN THE BILL OF RIGHTS THAT YOU THINK THE PATRIOT ACT TOOK FROM YOU (WHICH, BY THE WAY, YOUR OWN SENATORS AND REPRESENTIVVES VOTED FOR)????



 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6TH on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
.

W9WHE, be a winner and;

Put your trust in God and your faith is well founded.

73 my friend, W6TH
.:
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W9WHE-II on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Oh, wait, now I get it........

Bush and Ashcroft have denied you your freedom, through the Patriot act, by allowing OTH radar to operate, thereby infringing on your $1/yr hobby.

NOW I GET IT!
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6TH on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
.

Bush and ashcraft? I hope they can read this:

AMENDMENT XIV
Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Read your Bill of Rights. Know more about Your rights.

.:
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W6TH on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
.
During the debates on the adoption of the Constitution, its opponents repeatedly charged that the Constitution as drafted would open the way to tyranny by the central government. Fresh in their minds was the memory of the British violation of civil rights before and during the Revolution. They demanded a "bill of rights" that would spell out the immunities of individual citizens. Several state conventions in their formal ratification of the Constitution asked for such amendments; others ratified the Constitution with the understanding that the amendments would be offered.

On September 25, 1789, the First Congress of the United States therefore proposed to the state legislatures 12 amendments to the Constitution that met arguments most frequently advanced against it. The first two proposed amendments, which concerned the number of constituents for each Representative and the compensation of Congressmen, were not ratified. Articles 3 to 12, however, ratified by three-fourths of the state legislatures, constitute the first 10 amendments of the Constitution, known as the Bill of Rights.

 
Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by KG4OOA on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
OTHR is missile detection and tracking radar using disturbances to the ionsphere caused by missles or space vehicles passing through that layer . I'm an old timer in the radar business. Try:

http://www.radomes.org/museum/

All sorts of information. In fact you might find some reasons wht it may act the way it acts.

73,
Bob
KG4OOA
Fertile 80
 
Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by KILOWATT on September 22, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Yes, I've heard it too.

I think it all has something to do with Stonehenge and the crop circles.

Kilowatt

P.S. One conspiracy theory is as good as the next, I always say.
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by K8MHZ on September 25, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Ask a librarian about the Patriot Act.

The Act also allows for 'sneak and peeks'. Now tell me that is Constitutional.
 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by W9WHE-II on September 26, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
All you whiney liberals have a choice:

a) Accept some minor infringement on your personal perception of your liberty; or

b) Tie the government's hands, make it tougher to protect you and more likely that you will get blown up.

The choice is yours.

As for me, if its a choice between the government knowing what books I check out of the PUBLIC library, (where PUBLIC funds are used) and letting bad guys check out books on BOMB MAKING in secret, its an easy choice.

Liberals want government to protect them from everything, terrorists, hurricaines, poverty, & sickness, but refuse to provide the tools. WHEN will you people set aside your bittnerness over loosing an election and get a grip on reality?

W9WHE

 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by KI5WC on September 29, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I might suggest checking out the locations of the aerostats (ballons if you will) operated by the USAF for the Border Patrol, ICE et al. I have reliable info from a source who worked on some of the technology that the aerostats have capabilities that few are aware of.
 
Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by KC7CM on September 30, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
There are other HF radars used for ocean monitoring for wave motion and direction.

http://www.codaros.com

There are a number of these already licensed by the FCC and allowed broad freq. ranges. In other countries, they may be allowed even more freq. availability that gets into our allocations.

Maybe the ham vendors need to up the R & D work for DSP in our radios to reduce this stuff in the IF circuit. I am sure it will continue to get worse, not better.

Walt




 
RE: Does Homeland Security OTHR Affect HF?  
by VR2BG on December 2, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
The 40 & 75/80m OTHRs being discussed here are most likely operated by China's PLA. Back in June the source had been narrowed down to Hainan thanks to help from hams in W7, JA3, DU, HS, VK, etc.

Another has been found on 10m & the likely location of Xisha suggested from HS.

There is also a CODAR (sea surface radar) NE of here that often wipes out all of 12m.

And there is also the mess on 160m, which has been recently publicized by major country IARU member-societies.

With the exception of 160m (in Region 3 at least), all of these intruders are in violation of the ITU-RR.

Please complain about these to your respective telecommunications authorities & IARU member-societies - otherwise these Chinese intruders will remain with us forever - just like the Pluto II system the UK is constantly firing up on the amateur bands from ZC4 (I hear this one almost daily anywhere from 10m down to 30m).

Nobody's "homeland security" should become electromagnetic terrorism to someone else & that is exactly what firing up a radiolocation service contrary to what these countries signed up to by participating in ITU.

Due to lack of action on formal complaints about all of these intruders, the matter has been referred to HK Government's Ombudsman. One person can only do so much - please, before carrying on in typical eHam.net fashion, complain to your telecommunications authorties & IARU member-societies.

Causing harmful interference to properly licensed stations is simply not on - we might expect such behavior of China, but from UK it is despicable. And the likes of the Chinas of the world can simply point to the UKs & say "why can't we if you are already doing the same?".

73, VR2BrettGraham
 
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