eHam.net - Amateur Radio (Ham Radio) Community

Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net



[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?

(K4III) on July 6, 2006
View comments about this article!

I read a similar post and it brought to mind a topic I'd like to hear thoughts on...

Future Ham Radio Emergency Communications and the lack of it being used in the public service/emergency/disaster sector.

With emergencies, ham radio and its operators are always able to assist. But how come ham organizations and ham assistance is becoming less needed or requested? Or the role being diminished?

Many posts address the needs/wants and capabilities of hams during disasters and emergencies, many make good points, but none seem to address this point.

Privacy concerns, medical data, patient information, etc...!

With new medical rules that concern the privacy of a patients personal medical data and information as well as other laws and rules concerning the protection of "sensitive information" dealing with individuals, (even sometimes concerning age, build, weight SSN and personal address), can ham radio channels provide or pass emergency traffic effectively through non-encrypted means???

OK. Now many may be confused. Ham radio can be sent using encryption if the encryption is readily available to all. However, isn't this a breach of the privacy rules since others can de-crypt/share this information.

Then again, to confuse things more, emergency groups that have county encrypted frequencies/systems can be un-encrypted with the latest scanners on the market! So the whole of the public can listen to them at the scene.

So back we are at square one. The only channel un-monitored is the cellular service! I Think! Maybe the media has cracked that mystery as well, although if so, done so illegally.

This was an important factor during the shuttle recovery effort, 9/11 incident, and hurricanes I read about where hams were attempting to point out or locate "sensitive" articles / belongings, remains, and other disaster recovery group items during these incidents.

I don't even think certain frequencies or bands, systems, or encryption keys would matter in this case. HF, VHF, UHF, Motorola/Ericson, etc... I can see this as an important factor as to why cellular companies are sent to incidents to erect cellular systems. If they can get the Government to block their frequencies from being monitored/scanned then they can charge the government back for the protected rights for private communications required by Government law!

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this matter? I'm just thinking privacy concerns aren't going to become less or disappear in the near future and I'm wondering whether ham radio can be a source at all for serious emergency communications here in the USA if privacy requirements continue growing?

And, I'm not talking about calling for assistance with a flat tire. But rather a county-wide disaster or larger where concerns are "sensitive" such as incidents with harm done to personal or private property or an event that involves personal injury and lives.

Maybe ham communications is just going to have to change its role to adhere to strict jobs such as food/water supply reporting and inventory supply communications or set up guidelines on how far emergency responders can go in describing a patient, scene or incident.

Lets face it. There isn't going to be any major incident here in the US where the government (FD, PD, SO, EMS, etc) isn't involved on scene right away either on the Local, State, or Federal level.

Just something to ponder on "down the road communications" ... Any thoughts on the matter?

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by AE6RF on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The author, while well-meaning, is poorly informed on the subjects of "encoding" vs "encryption."

APCO-25 is a digital mode, which can be decoded by modern scanners.

Various digital modes may _also_ be encrypted. I am unaware of any scanners which claim to be able to decrypt encrypted signals.

It is legal for hams to "encode" things, for instance the various compression schemes used in packet radio. The intent is to make more efficient use of the bandwidth, NOT to conceal meaning. As long as the specification is public ANYBODY can decode the information.

Encryption, on the other hand, is meant to conceal meaning. Even with the specification and proper software or decrypting techniques, the message cannot be understood without the key(s).

Encryption, to conceal meaning, is illegal on the ham bands.

That said, under dire emergency circumstances with NO other alternatives available, I find it hard to believe that the FCC would pull your license, if you sent a PGP encrypted file under the direction of your served agency, IF you also proactively informed the FCC of that transmission along with the contact information for the third parties that the transmission was for.

Of course, my operation definition of "dire emergency" is one in which you wouldn't mind losing your license for in order to help...

73 de Donald
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by KB9RQZ on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
you point up a valid concern yet another problem

besides Ham egos and such

I suppose in an emergency we could encrpt data after all part say something like nothing in these rules shall prevent any station covered by them form responding to an emergency

at least one place this is brought (i read yesterday over at the Monitoring Times website an article that mentioned this concern
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KD4AC on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Then again, to confuse things more, emergency groups that have county encrypted frequencies/systems can be un-encrypted with the latest scanners on the market!"

They can? Since when? And where can I get one of these scanners? I have a Uniden BC-785D with the digital card that allows me to monitor APCO-25 digital systems, but it won't allow me to listen to encrypted communications. The latest scanner from Uniden, the BC-396, can't even demodulate encrypted signals. Are these export scanners?
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by K4SRQ on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hey Jon! I appreciate your comments. The whole privacy/encryption issue is one of the major componenets that is squeezing out ham radio as a communications tool in emergencies. Please review comments by NA4AR on this issue. It is up on the ARRL site in ref to the digital radio group researching implementation, modes etc. Can't remember the name of them off hand.

The other variable is alternative comms. Nextel and GSM Radios. Nextel is pretty quick with the COWS (Cellular On Wheels) to provide communications at a staging site and over a wider area as the time following the event progresses. Here in your old stomping grounds I was part of a post hurricane task force that went out to assay damage after Charley. We were not needed. The authorities had their own local comms setup with intra-team comms on GSM.
Of course when in the dire straits offered by a critical, wide area event such as Katrina, I am sure they would find a crack to stuff us in to provide some assistance.

One way around all this is to make ourselves a multi-function resource. Familiarizing ourselves with the Incident Command System, SATERN, taking first aid courses, CERT Certification and whatever comes down the pipe to make the Amateur Radio Operator a resource for a variety of needs. Inclusive to those properties of the multi-function resource is the ability to provide radio communications if needed. That and maybe to pilot the Space Shuttle. Is there an online training for that?

73 and miss hearing you on the air down here,
Burt KI4FH
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by N5XM on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hmmm...I worked in the medical field for 32 years, 22 of those years in specialty clinics, and am quite familiar with the so-called "privacy laws". They ARE very silly. On the other hand, in a true emergency, one that threatens the well-being of thousands, all bets on these regulations will be off when and if something like Katrina (or whatever) happens again. Why worry about encryption in these kinds of terrible situations when digital communication is often offline when these things occur? If they want to send me to prison for violating someone's "privacy" in order to save their life, well, I'll be sleepin' with my back against the wall, so to speak.
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by K0RGR on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
There is some disagreement about both the requirements and the required responses.

There is one knowledgeable group that believes that Amateur Communications in an emergency would never actually violate the standards that apply to other services. For one thing, amateur nets don't carry death messages (ARES rules).d As good as the argument may be, however, try explaining that to a Red Cross field official who believes that all communications must be encrypted. If we are going to play in their game, we must play by their rules.

The WINLINK system is not encrypted, but it uses a compression scheme that makes it difficult for someone to intercept and decode the messages. That is, the data is not sent "...in the clear". This should be adequate for most situations.

Amateur groups using 802.11 networks contend that since the common encryption schemes for 802.11 are public domain, all they need to do in order to be compliant is to publish which scheme they are using. So far, there's been no disagreement from FCC on this. Of course, if they are running under Part 15 rules, the encryption is completely legal, anyway. Some groups are set up to allow a mix of Part 97 and Part 15, to accomodate the 'long haul' but also to allow non-licensed users to use the network. This way, encryption can be applied where it is needed, and not where it is not.

I do think that FCC needs to amend its rules to recognize the need for non-routine encryption of certain types of traffic. We should be able to use industry-standard encryption techniques to protect wireless LANs operating on bands we share with other services. But we must be very careful that we don't allow people to use our ham bands as a personal communications system simply by encrypting the data being sent.
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by N0TRK on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
We are very active with hosptials as part of the Metro Medical Response System and are considered their primary communication method. The hospitals all have 800 Mhz and access to encryption. That being said, the hosptials are aware that they can use us for anything that does not kick in HIPAA. 15 patients exhibiting thse symptoms, or 35 available beds at this facility, they understand we aren't secure, but by keeping this type of critical but non-secure data off the 800MHz radios keeps those radios free for comm that needs to address the private details. Locally there is a large investment in ham radios and the hospitals really undersand. We have been involved with MMRS since 1999, and our role has not diminished. In the 15 years, I have been involved in EMCOMM, I was always told, no names, no personal info on ham frequencies. So what has changed guys? HIPPA rules finally caught up with us. It is addressed in training and not one hospital has said, we can't use these guys because of HIPAA.
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by KB4QAA on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Well gents,
It is silly to talk about what people "think" HIPAA says. Go to the official source:

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/KATRINAnHIPAA.pdf

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/EnforcementStatement.pdf

HIPAA specifically states that in an emergency healthcare providers are authorized to disclose information to safe lives.

Non healthcare agencies like the Red Cross are not covered by HIPAA.

73
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by WF7A on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Maybe we should petition the FCC to create a "Good Samaritan"-type amendment to Part 97? I can imagine a scenario where there's a serious (but not immediately life-threatening) medical situation and a patient needs critical information sent to/from a medical facility (by ham radio), but the ham can't for fear of punitive action from the FCC and/or litigation from the private parties involved.

In life-or-death situations, we're free from such retribution; for welfare traffic, though, we'd have to be careful. There always seems to be a gray area. :S

Ciao,
Rich
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by N0AH on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
In Mississippi after Katrina, and after asking, I reported the name, address and medical conditions of poeple who needed immediate medical attention. Volunteer doctors and/or nurses than came out to the rural areas to help. Most knew the people in distress and were all glad we found them. Try being diabetic anf go three days without insulin. So sue me. Red tape can kill people.
 
Simple Ham Radio Emergency Communications  
by AI2IA on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
When taxpayer money is thrown at any program, watch the program grow in complexity and attract numerous opportunists. Emergency communications has grown and is growing into an enormous and enormously expensive complexity.
As long as there are two or more hams who can reach one another via the air waves, ham emergency communication will be possible. In a real down-in-the-dirt emergency, you are not going to be concerned about encrypted medical records and coordination with numerous chains of command. Fooey on all of this stuff. Let FEMA and all the ABC letter agencies do what they think they have to do. If you feel that you must get involved in all that expense and complexity, go ahead. It surely is an evolving communications complexity, but in my humble opinion it definitely is not nor ever will be the real ham radio emergency communications.
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by WB0M on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"But rather a countywide disaster or larger where concerns are "sensitive" such as incidents with harm done to personal or private property or an event that involves personal injury and lives."

Okay, being a member of the media, I've got to comment on a couple of things: first of all, even before HIPPA rules, you should never transmit the names of victims anyway and I'm not really sure why their SS numbers are relevant either. Quite frankly, when reporting casualties and such anyway, a source other that "I heard it on the radio" is more the norm. Yes, there some media outlets that go beyond reason, but an official source is usually preferred. To be honest, we usually know a lot more than the public does anyway and that info never makes into print or on the air for various reasons (NY Times aside). So the concern over "sensitive" areas should not be a major concern for ham radio communications. If a life and death situation does happen where "sensitive" information needs to be passed, I think the last thing someone needs to think about is who is listening. You should be more aware to what is being said that to whom is listening And it's not just the media or bad guys. Even well-meaning people start rumors and disinformation. -- Jeff/wb0m
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by AB7JK on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Good points - you transmit a victim's medical condition and you violate HIPPA. You help save the person's life and he sues you and wins - then the government fines you.

Why bother? You have an accident and more than likely you weren't being careful enough to begin with. Why should I have to pay for saving YOUR rear end?

I work in emergency medical services and when I pass a serious accident I keep driving. I live to put food on the table another day. AB7JK


 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by N5YPJ on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Most federal law enforcement here is digitally encrypted and quiet secure. State has APCO-25. Everyone else uses cell phones for their more sensitive comms and FM open systems for routine matters. We experienced a flood here 8 years ago and for several hours radio was about the only way to communicate. Given no other method of communication and a true medical emergency I'll certainly
take my chances. I've had situations arise where I could have used ham radio to relay request for law enforcement assistance or an ambulance but chose not to because I was able to locate a landline quickly.

I'd like to see more of our sound card modes being used on emergency traffic & nets, definitely more efficient and some degree of security.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by TIMEPILOT84 on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
HIPPA doesn't have any affect whatsoever on Ham Radio, or any emergency response, for that matter. Please read what it is and who it affects before spreading FUD.

http://www.hipaa.org
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by KI1U on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Certain information that most would consider private is routinely exchanged over public safety communciations systems i.e. SSN's, age, addresses, other descriptors, etc. But certain information, that protected by HIPAA, cannot legally be transmitted no matter what.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by ND5Y on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"The other variable is alternative comms. Nextel and GSM Radios."

What the H is a GSM radio? You mean a GSM cell phone?
I thought those weren't supposed to work in an emergency.
Did you really mean GMRS or is this something new like the encryption-decoding scanner?

Tom
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K0XU on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
BTW, the "league" is attempting to get part 97 changed to ALLOW encription in these sorts of settings. I haven't made up my mind about that yet.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC2MJT on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks, finally someone said it.

73 nate
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by AB7JK on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
This country is so litigious you are making a big mistake being involved with the medical profession, the legal profession, volunteer work, the boy scouts - you name it.

If you want to do good, you are still idealistic, or just nieve you are in for a pack of trouble and a rude awakening. Our institutions are disintegrating as is the social fiber that makes us still believe in going to work in the morning. Many of our instututions are corrupt, our leaders have no moral courage, and we harbor millions of people who will turn on us when the time is ripe for them.

We are at a time in our history where we should be responsible only to our families and our selves and we should associate only with like minded people. You can't help those like the so called 'victims' of New Orleans - those who live irresponsibly, unable to heed warnings or be accountable for their own well beings. You can't be friends with foolish neighbors who look for support or sympathy from others while living selfishly.

We have only one or two more Katrinas or terrorist attacks left in us at most then it will become survival of the fittist. Will you make the right choices?
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by KE4DRN on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
hi,

when the paramedics arrive at the scene they
keep the radio transmissions short and to the fact,

male 47 yr old, chest pains, 2 previous heart attacks

female, 78, diabetic, on insulin etc.

insurance coverage, SSN, etc can be
taken down by the medical pros later on.

73 james
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KA6GJN on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Ignoring (for this post) the exceptions and allowances already built into HIPAA, the restrictions imposed by that law have little impact on the vast majority of traffic handled by ham operators in disasters and emergencies.

There is no problem with transmitting general information about a patient, like condition, physical characteristics, etc. There is hardly ever a reason to attach a name or any other identifying data to such info. It is of no interest to the people whose job is to treat patients and keep them alive, at least while the patient is outside a regular treatment facility. Ambulances and hospitals do this thousands of times per day. Check out your local MEDNET frequencies, or whatever systems your EMS people use to communicate with hospitals. I don't doubt that encrypted systems exist, but I've never run across one.

Similarly, there is no problem passing traffic relating to emergency shelters, like the number of people and their conditions, orders for supplies, etc. etc.

Finally, much of the traffic we handle is of the H&W nature. In that case, the information is voluntarily provided by the parties involved. I would recommend reminding people that the system over which the message will be passed is not secure. That should take care of it.

If for some reason you are asked to pass information that includes personal data, I recommend you either decline, or do it in some other fashion. Include in your "go bag" some large manila or kraft envelopes that can be sealed. Some people make document tubes out of PVC pipe. Then use a runner.
KA6GJN
KA6GJN
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by NL7W on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
High-grade encryption capable Project 25 (P25) radios are able to cipher in bit-levels ranging from 128, 192, and 256-bit, and offer the Advanced Encryption Standard (AES) -- the latest NSA approved standard for our Nation. The strength of this standard is high; the two higher bit-levels mentioned above are allowed to can carry SECRET and TOP-SECRET government communications, if other related NSA conditions are met. You cannot and will not break these encryption strengths if the keys are rotated on a monthly basis.

By the way, since when has ham radio emergency communications become mainstay, critical, life and death, public safety communications? Aiding the communications of the Red Cross, Salvation Army, and other non-critical response orgs -- yes. But, it will not become something it is not. Amateur radio doesn't require any form of ciphering. As we know, ciphering on ham radio is illegal today.

I dislike hearing of hams that wish to cipher communications at this point in time. It is not needed on the ham bands for any reason. If a government organization wishes to use hams to operate its own encrypted equipment -- fine. But not on our ham bands please.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K8MHZ on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Amateur radio doesn't require any form of ciphering. As we know, ciphering on ham radio is illegal today.

I dislike hearing of hams that wish to cipher communications at this point in time. It is not needed on the ham bands for any reason. If a government organization wishes to use hams to operate its own encrypted equipment -- fine. But not on our ham bands please."



Thank You!!!
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K8MHZ on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"If for some reason you are asked to pass information that includes personal data, I recommend you either decline, or do it in some other fashion. Include in your "go bag" some large manila or kraft envelopes that can be sealed. Some people make document tubes out of PVC pipe. Then use a runner."

Sensitive information should never be passed on ham radio unless the lack thereof would endanger someone and only if no other timely means were available.

HIPPA is a minimum standard. Most health care facilities have policies much more stringent and will not allow personal info to be transmitted via public airwaves.

Establishing a means, runners being one example, to traffic this info outside transmitting it on amateur frequencies should be a focus of research as it is being questioned more as time goes on.

 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by K1CJS on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The results of some of the past disasters/emergency situations are now being implemented, namely, interagency communications interoperability.

Most of the city and towns around my area are switching to the 400 mhz public safety bands so their agency's communications may be easily combined with neighboring cities or towns when needed. The Mass. State Police and state government are also trying to get on the same page with the 400 mhz systems, switching the old HF and VHF systems to secondary status or getting rid of them altogether.

This is affecting the need of using ham radio for important communications--those communications are done over the interagency systems. The role of ham radio is being lessened, but we are still wanted to do health and welfare messaging and general information exchanging.

I am, however, also seriously considering whether it is worth it to chance doing anything that I would be sued for--as someone else already said, even if your intent was to help, someone may sue you for whatever you may have tried to do to help them. I've worked too long and hard for what I have today just to have it taken from me and my family over a misunderstanding leading to a frivilous lawsuit.

I think I'll just keep involved with Skywarn and with general messaging about conditions--leaving the shelter work and messaging to those who are supposed to be doing it, the police, fire, emergency management and hospital personnel.

To rephrase an old quote-- "I don't need no stinkin' lawsuits!" Peace and 73 to all.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by VE7RS on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Argh! Another Emergency Communications Post!

Well, a "couple" of people have got the right idea here. Hams are NOT usually the mainstay backup for commercial traffic, and its also my belief that hams should stick to helping agencies like the Red Cross, Salvation army, and others who do not have normal communications systems in place, should an emergency arise. The likelyhood of hams taking OVER for Police, Fire, EMS are very slim. In other words, I wouldn't hold my breath. I oversee a large communications network for the Fire Service and we now have so many backup systems, spare radios/repeaters and plans in place that it will be a frosty friday before we ever need to resort to hams doing our jobs (and Ive also been a ham for 25 years). Our Commercial radio systems are far superior to anything that Ive personally ever seen in Amateur radio. This is not the case everywhere, of course. I will admit that NObody should rely on Cel phones; even regular phones; as they're the first to get overloaded and go down. VOIP phones also concern me, as they are dead in the water if the power goes out (if you're on a cable provider). I would advise any ham waiting around to "take over" Commercial communications systems, to see if there are other places to volunteer your time; because otherwise you could be waiting a LONG time, in my opinion. Can you really blame the Emergency Services who turn down your offers to help; when some hams arrive on the scene stating that they are there to "take over"? (and that might be before things even WENT down). Who wouldn't get their back up! Diplomacy can go a long way to getting cooperation. Do I think that hams have a communications role to play here? You bet. They just need to discover who really needs them and then enhance those relationships. ps: I didn't touch on the encryption topic; perhaps another day.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by RobertKoernerExAE7G on July 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
If I was concerned about <Privacy concerns, medical data, patient information, etc...!> I would ask the Emergency Communications organization I worked with.

Or, I would contact local ARES I was going to work with.

What organization do you contact, and what did they tell you about your concerns?

To me this question is like reading a salsa receipt and asking about the theory of dicing onions and Serano Peppers. Make some salsa and see how it tastes.


 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC5FOG on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
As one poster touched on ham radio egos will kill the emergency communications part of ham radio more than any other factor.

I've seen in several metro ares near me have their races and ares groups fall apart because the person at the top wants to run it like its his personal office and play favorites and politics and run off ALLOT of good people who want to volunteer. I know of one ham that almost went to the city council because the ham in charge of the races chapter with the local EOC would not let him and several others join because they were not in his click. The EMCOM part of ham radio is falling apart not because of outside issues but because of infighting and immaturity from the power hungry ham ego.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by N5PVL on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

The alleged logic behind utilizing encryption on the ham bands for ecomms is a paper-thin sham, there to conceal the primary motivation for this assault upon the PART97 protections against commercial and inappropriate content on the ham bands.

The primary motivator behind the ARRL push for encryption on the ham bands is the sociopathic TAPR organization, which could care less about ecomms but does have have a long-standing determination to run Internet trash over the ham bands. - They are the motivating force behind the recent ARRL fascination with making the ham bands over into another Internet resource.

How and why TAPR has been able to manipulate the ARRL into actively working against the best interests of amateurs and amateur radio is a question that we should all be curious about today.

As has been pointed out in an earlier post here, the recent availability of DHS ecomm grant money has brought every kind of nut-case and fascist wanna-be out of the woodwork, all full of plans to re-do amateur radio over into their own, more profitable image. The prevailing thought seems to be that if they can get some of that grant money flowing through their fingers, perhaps some of it will stick there.

TAPR is taking advantage of this ecomm hysteria in order to push ignorant, destructive policies intended to make amateur radio over into a kind of third-rate ISP.

Ignorant, destructive policies like the idea of eliminating PART97 protections against data encryption on the ham bands.

This sociopathic organization has been at war with PART97 for over twenty years now, and their current assault upon those protective regulations is just the latest of many. - They were trying to get data encryption allowed on the ham bands over a decade ago, long before anybody had heard of DHS grant money, long before there was any hysteria over ham radio ecomms.

Some amateurs have fallen for ARRL/TAPR propaganda and believe that they are out to serve humanity by pushing for the repeal of one aspect or another of the PART97 restrictions and protections that prevent the ham bands from being taken over by commercial concerns and being loaded up with inappropriate content. - In fact they are being played as "useful idiots" by a group that sees the use of the ham bands by amateurs as a great waste, when it could be used to move Internet traffic instead.

Intelligent amateurs who would like to see the hobby survive should resist these attacks upon the PART97 protections, no matter what kind of shiney ecomm gloss is put upon them by corrupt ARRL/TAPR goons and the "useful idiots" they have bamboozeled into supporting their destructive aims.

I understand that this will whizz right over the heads of some, and that others will understand perfectly but not care enough to make the matter seriously. Others will utilize it as still another opportunity to troll. - But I am confident that not only the best of those who read but also the great majority of those who do so will immediately see what I am talking about.

Charles Brabham, N5PVL
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC5TTL on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
N5PVL

Dude -- you hit it right on the head.

There were 10's of millions of dollars given out by DHS and FEMA to improve communication capabiltiies within the US. Unfortunately, no one at DHS or FEMA really had a clue as to what a roadmap to success looked like and thus -- most of that money went to people/towns/agencies to purchase anything they wanted. Even ICOM and Kenwood gave out tons of free radios and antennas, etc. My father in law who is a ham and lived in Gulfport MS had little more then a RS HTX and a Discone antenna which he lost in the flooding -- he filled out the paperwork from Kenwood when they were giving out free replacements and now has a Kenwood mobile HF/2/440 rig and a top of the line Comet antenna they simply gave him. (When we were talking to the Kenwood reps they all wondered why more hams in the devasted area did not take advantage of their offer to replace damaged equipment - but anyway)

Its the ham spectrum they want so they can convert some of it to data (Internet traffic). At first they will say its for support to the Global War on Terror -- but soon it will simply be another form of low speed Internet that is robust enough to handle adverse weather and terrorist scenarios...

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC8VWM on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
work in emergency medical services and when I pass a serious accident I keep driving. I live to put food on the table another day. AB7JK

-------------------

...and then the victim dies and you get sued for negligence because you did NOT offer your assistance. KC8VWM


 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC7JDS on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I wonder if this type of situation would be covered under "Good Samaritan" laws? Most areas have some version of this, basically it says that you cannot be criminally or civilly prosecuted if you make a mistake in attempting to save someone's life.

Anyone have more knowledge on this?

B Woodman
kc7jds
 
RE: Use digital modes for sensitive information  
by KE4SKY on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The infomation privacy issue has been addressed successfully in Virginia since 1999 by using an open-source TCP/IP file compression scheme by the Virginia Digital Emergency Network. This has been in continuous use since 9/11 and has been accepted by the State Medical Examiner, Virginia Dept. of Health and hospitals throughout the state which are part of the network. Agency OPSEC requirements mean that amateurs must be flexible and make increasing use of digital modes rather than phone.

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC8VWM on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Good points - you transmit a victim's medical condition and you violate HIPPA.

-----------

Apparently, it's done on a daily basis during any pre hospital care between any typical ER dept. and ambulance in transport.

The information conveyed typically goes along the lines of something like this:

"We are en route with a 37 Y.O. male complaining of lower left quadrant abdominal pain with a history of blah blah blah... fill in the blanks, vital signs to follow."

So, please explain how this information violates any privacy rights of the individual?

After all, practically anyone could be a 37 Y.O. male with a history of .....

73 Charles - KC8VWM
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by WF7A on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
As an aside, it just occurred to me that as hams, in times of emergency we may be more useful in helping established emcomm companies/agencies get _their_ comm systems up and running instead of us striking out on our own with our own equipment; our technical smarts and abilities may be put to better use that way.

Just food for thought.

Ciao,
Rich
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by N4FOZ on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The writer needs to take a trip to the Gulf Coast and get a taste of reality. The law is clear.. in an emergency, just about anything goes... and Ham Radio will be there.

Hams ran police communications in the gulf coast with no problems. Next article, please.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC5TTL on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
...and then the victim dies and you get sued for negligence because you did NOT offer your assistance. KC8VWM

-----

And I bet that this has NEVER happened anywhere .. ever...

and NO WHERE -- does it say that a passing motorist -- trained or not -- has to stop to render aid...

All the law says is that you can't leave the scene of an acident your were INVOLVED in...

But then again -- knowing how KC8VWM thinks - he would have pulled over -- put four or five radios on his belt -- turned on his emergency whoppi lights -- put his EMCOMM badge on -- threw out a dozen flares... donned his orange EMCOMM vest and caused more accidents then if he just had moved along... LOL

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC5TTL on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Apparently, it's done on a daily basis during any pre hospital care between any typical ER dept. and ambulance in transport.
The information conveyed typically goes along the lines of something like this:

"We are en route with a 37 Y.O. male complaining of lower left quadrant abdominal pain with a history of blah blah blah... fill in the blanks, vital signs to follow."

So, please explain how this information violates any privacy rights of the individual?

73 Charles - KC8VWM

----

The above is NOT the type of information they are concerned about ...

its the ones that go like this - "We have a Mary Henderson of 3412 Elm Drive, NYC, phone 512.543.6544, 38 years of age, white female, transported to Lutheran Hospital this morning of a heart attack."

Thast what they are concerned about -- its called Health and Welfare updates -- lets people know where folks are, who is in transport, etc etc -- it is NOT the traffic between EMS and the hospital...
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC8VWM on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
But then again -- knowing how KC8VWM thinks - he would have pulled over -- put four or five radios on his belt -- turned on his emergency whoppi lights -- put his EMCOMM badge on -- threw out a dozen flares... donned his orange EMCOMM vest and caused more accidents then if he just had moved along... LOL

------

Funny dude. Obviously you don't know me very well.

You forgot to mention my AK 47 which I sling over my shoulder and my military helmet I usually wear on my head at the accident scene.

In addition, I usually make it a common practice to tell everyone to stand back because I know CPR. I usually perform field surgery, amputating people's limbs right on the scene so I can move the victims from their vehicles before any EMS vehicles arrive.

They usually thank me for my "heroism" and present me with a ceremonious medal to pin on my chest.

There really is no need to thank me as I suppose I just chalk up my heroic actions as just another day in the life of emcomm communications.



Charles - KC8VWM
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC8VWM on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The above is NOT the type of information they are concerned about ...

its the ones that go like this - "We have a Mary Henderson of 3412 Elm Drive, NYC, phone 512.543.6544, 38 years of age, white female, transported to Lutheran Hospital this morning of a heart attack."

-----

But you see that's the point I am making. It never happens that way in EMS does it...

Perhaps that is useful information for the emcom forum ...no?

KC8VWM

"Not just your average black masked donut stained red caped emcom superhero"
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1CJS on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>>...work in emergency medical services and when I
>> pass a serious accident I keep driving. I live
>> to put food on the table another day. AB7JK

>>-------------------

>>...and then the victim dies and you get sued for
>> negligence because you did NOT offer your
>> assistance. KC8VWM

How do you figure that, Charles? If you see something and just don't stop so to keep traffic flowing, or the emergency responders are behind you, how is anyone to know you personally were there and did not stop?? I have a state ID plate on my car, and I still don't stop. Nobody has ever bothered me about it. If anybody did, I'd tell them I was on the way to somewhere else.

Now, if you said your conscience would bother you, thats another story altogether.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1CJS on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
WF7A, Rich-- You have got a good thought--and the right idea--there. Just like the recent story about an amateur club that loaned their portable tower to a community where the emergency services tower accidently came down. You can be sure the police and fire chiefs in that town will have good feelings about the local club and will certainly turn to them if the need arises in the future.....
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by WA4MJF on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The law does NOT apply to NON-providers
of medical care AND billing. So hams are NOT
covered. This has been mentioned in the
last coupla issues of CQ with quotes of
who is covered by the law, due to a lotta
misunderstanding by hams.

I don't think that it is honored much
by volunteer rescue squads either based on
my monitoring around here. You'll hear a dispatch, for example,
John Doe fell off his porch and thinks he
broke his leg. By and by the squad goes enroute
often saying the address, in case everyone
doesn't know where John Doe's place is.
A little later on the HEAR frequency, you'll hear
we're on the way to the ER, better call
a doctor in. John Doe has a compound
fracture of his femur, followed by vitals.
Now I guess they can do this, as it is a
volunteer outfit providing medical care,
but DOESN'T bill.


73 de Ronnie
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1CJS on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>> Hams ran police communications in the gulf coast
>> with no problems.....

Yes, that has happened many times--even before the gulf coast disaster. Most of the time volunteers staff the communications links in an EOC to free up the personnel who usually man them for other more important work, either out in the field or in other parts of the organization. After all, the communications people who usually man the radios know more about the organization than the volunteers do. Usually........
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC8VWM on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Well Chris, I was thinking more along the lines of being at the scene not necessarily "driving by" a scene.

For example you are in a restaurant and someone is choking. You decide not to assist them because doing so might result in a fractured rib etc.

The person ends up dead because no one assists that individual because of these so called potential liability issues we seems to be prevalent in our society today.

Someone points out to the police investigating the matter the fact that you "could have" helped them out because you had the training to do so, however you decided not to do so because you didn't want to run the risk of being sued in court for possibly injuring that individual in the process of helping them.

So, the whole mess ends up in some courtroom somewhere and a judge decides you acted "negligent" and stood by doing nothing while the victim dies in front of you.

So my question is, are you equally legally liable for your inactions?

Perhaps that clarifies the point a bit?

73 KC8VWM
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KB9CRY on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Boy do you guys get off kilter quick!

To address the poster's original questions:

"With emergencies, ham radio and its operators are always able to assist. But how come ham organizations and ham assistance is becoming less needed or requested? Or the role being diminished?"


Amateur radio operators (I prefer to call us that rather than hams; looks better to the public) are indeed not as needed during most emergencies because there are more and better equipped emergency services than there used to be in days of old.

As far as their role being diminished; no we are trained communicators and that experience can be used when needed. And personally, I don't hop in my car and rush to every disaster to provided assistance. I may do that if I hear that assistance is needed or if I'm in the middle of a disaster. Yes part of our purpose according to the FCC regulations is to help out with emergency communications, that is not our one and only charter. And if we're not needed, I don't feel threatened by that and think that we will be eliminated. There are many other reasons why we have the frequency priveledges that we have.

Phil

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1CJS on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
OK Charles, I'll concede that point--if you were at the incident scene already.

However, on your example, unless you and your expertise were so well known that someone would recognise you at a restaurant, I have to ask again, how would anyone know you were there? Unless the incident happened right next to you and people who know you and your capabilities were right next to you as well, there isn't much of a chance of your being identified as being negligent. As I said, I'd worry more about my conscience. 73!
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by NN7B on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
There is not much 'personal' information that will be conveyed by ham radio during an emergency. The .1% chance that will be needed as ham radio being a "last resort" then whatever it takes to remedy a problem will be done. Routine movement of sensitive personal information or details will most likely never be given to ham radio operators to communicate. ARC has procedures in place for sensitive information covered by HIIPA laws. Besides, packet radio does a fair job of keeping information somewhat encripted on it's own.

There are many comm needs that ham radio operators can handle during an emergency that will not have anything to do with personal information. In my experience working shelter comms, there was never a need to convey personal information beyond a telephone number over the air. There are and will be exceptions but, they are just that rather than the rule.

Paul Cavnar - NN7B
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by WA4MJF on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The law does NOT apply to NON-providers
of medical care AND billing. So hams are NOT
covered. This has been mentioned in the
last coupla issues of CQ with quotes of
who is covered by the law, due to a lotta
misunderstanding by hams.

I don't think that it is honored much
by volunteer rescue squads either based on
my monitoring around here. You'll hear a dispatch, for example,
John Doe fell off his porch and thinks he
broke his leg. By and by the squad goes enroute
often saying the address, in case everyone
doesn't know where John Doe's place is.
A little later on the HEAR frequency, you'll hear
we're on the way to the ER, better call
a doctor in. John Doe has a compound
fracture of his femur, followed by vitals.
Now I guess they can do this, as it is a
volunteer outfit providing medical care,
but DOESN'T bill.


73 de Ronnie
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1CJS on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Not at all, Phil. A little side discussion always seems to happen. To get back to the article though, you said:

"With emergencies, ham radio and its operators are always able to assist. But how come ham organizations and ham assistance is becoming less needed or requested? Or the role being diminished?"

Many have already said (but maybe not as clearly) the ham bands wouldn't be utilized, but the ham and his training would. What is to stop the powers that be from having hams man the communications room in an EOC, frreing up trained personnel for other more important duties?

You could try to read a little deeper into the replies instead of picking up on somebodys little "side discussions". Peace and 73.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by AC3P on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Our RACES group is committed to helping 5 area hospitals. The ham radio equipment consisting of VHF for voice and UHF for data is already installed at each hospital. Everyone knows HIPPA rules apply so no traffic containing HIPPA covered information is to be sent over the ham radio. Only traffic of a logistical nature will be sent between the EOC and the hospitals.

So amateur radio has a role to play in our county and statewide ECOMMS.

Ironically, we were activated during the recent storms and flooding and did not bring up the hospitals. We manned shelters and fire station instead.

73

Frank
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC8VWM on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I have to ask again, how would anyone know you were there?

----

Point taken. They probobly wouldn't know in 75% of these situations however it's always the other 25% that worries me.

Have a great weekend Chris. 73

KC8VWM


 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by K7NNG on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
My brother was a surgical nurse not long ago who assisted with many trauma cases at the local emergency hospital.
One day he stopped at a car accident, helped, comforted, stopped bleeding that was life threatning to the young lady injured.
She died later at the hospital
Guess who was sued by her insurance company.??
Yep, he was and lost about everything he and the wife had worked so hard for.
I have all my life saving instruction cards/authorizations for helping people, but I reserve it for my own immediate family. I would never stop at a accident.
As a ham, I would never get involved in a situation where I would communicate confidential information of a injured person.
Our society is just too sue happy, and for that, people will die needlessly
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC8VWM on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The law does NOT apply to NON-providers
of medical care AND billing. So hams are NOT
covered.

----

Excellent point you make Ronnie, however there seems to be conflicting information floating around about this.

In this particular instance not only are healthcare providers protected by statutory law but the article clearly indicates "volunteers" are also equally protected.

Read it here:

http://medi-smart.com/gslaw.htm

Also for those wondering what this subject might possibly have to do with the idea of "liability" when passing traffic of a personal nature via ham radio during an emergency event, I feel this is precisely where such instance when statutory laws would apply during a volunteer role setting.

Just an opinion and no I am not a lawyer on ATV. :)

73
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by AB7JK on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
It doesn't matter what HIPPA says. You won't find two lawyers who interpret a law the same way depending on their political beliefs and the gleam in their eye.

Read recent legal journals - you've got lawyers suing lawyers for negligence, and lawyers suing those lawyers for suing the lawyers. That issue alone will take years to get to the supreme court.

The system is broke, their are no winners, and it's open season on scapegoats. Still want to be involved in public service? AB7JK
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by KE4ZHN on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
In a dire emergency where lives are at stake you can transmit ANYWHERE and ANYTHING you have to to save lives...period. This is plainly stated in Part 97. Any band, any mode and any power you can muster is perfectly legal in a life threatening emergency. You dont even have to be a licensed amateur to do so! The FCC isnt going to fine you or take legal action against an individual who gets on the HF bands and calls for help. Unless of course it proves to be a hoax.

We are amateur radio operators, this is one of the main purposes of amateur radio. To assist in emergencies. How can you assist if you cant transmit vital information? Besides, in a crisis like a dire medical emergency Im not about to worry about some lawyer suing me for saying a persons name or address or medical condition on the air! Thats ridiculous!
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W9OY on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The FCC isn't HHS. The FCC might not charge you for a HIPPA violation, but the department of Health and Human Services might.

I have a medical office and the regulations are so bad I HAVE to HAVE polarized filters on all my computer monitors in case someone like the mail man comes in to deliver a package and he MIGHT glance at a computer screen and see a name. If you give a patient an antibiotic you have to destroy the bag, just in case the garbage man might see the name on the label. Up to 25,000 fine and up to 10 years in jail.

Turn in your ball caps and vests boys, the show is over.

73 W9OY
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K7NNG on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
ke4zhn, yes you can, but there are twenty lawyers and insurance companies just waiting around the corner for you. the real world is, you can lose everything you own or will own, and to me its not worth the risk to my family.
to me, ham radio is a rag chew(cw) hobby, no more.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by WI7B on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I'm not a lawyer, so I went to the HIPAA website to see how this applies to me, a radio amateur. Here's what their questionaire ask me:

"Do you, or a third party billing company or clearinghouse, conduct any one of the following
business transactions electronically?

Claims or equivalent encounter information
Payment and remittance advice
Claim status inquiry/response
Eligibility inquiry/response
Referral authorization inquiry/response

IF 'NO' YOU ARE MOST LIKELY NOT COVERED BY HIPAA."

I'm pretty confident my answer is a definite 'NO'. I do not conduct ANY business transactions electronically in the Amateur Radio Service.

73,

---* Ken
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC8VWM on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

F.Y.I.,

(From HIPAA)

Start Quote:

"Persons who are displaced and in need of health care as a result of a severe disaster – such as Hurricane Katrina – need ready access to health care and the means of contacting family and caregivers.

We provide this bulletin to emphasize how the HIPAA Privacy Rule allows patient information to be shared to assist in disaster relief efforts, and to assist patients in receiving the care they need.

Providers and health plans covered by the HIPAA Privacy Rule can share patient information in all the following ways:

(Snip)

When a health care provider is sharing information with disaster relief organizations that, like the American Red Cross, are authorized by law or by their charters to assist in disaster relief efforts, it is unnecessary to obtain a patient’s permission to share the information if doing so would interfere with the organization’s ability to respond to the emergency."

End Quote.

Source: http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/KATRINAnHIPAA.pdf


73 Charles - KC8VWM
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W0IPL on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Answer to the question posed by the article title; Yes.

Reason: It is up to the served agency (you know, Red Cross, Salvation Army, EOC, Hospital, etc.) to create the message. If we follow procedure (yes, I understand that is an alien concept to a few of you) we "pass messages exactly as written". The responsibility for content (beyond those items prohibited by Part 97) is up to the served agency.

As long as we do not violate Part 97 regulations we would be no more responsible for the content of a message than we would be if it were written on a piece of paper that we transported from one place to another.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by WF7A on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
That makes the most sense to me, Patrick. Extending it further, say you use Winklink--instead of the radio--to send a sensitive message and somehow it ends up in litigation. Would private parties sue the broadband or dial-up carrier as well as a ham who transmitted and/or retransmitted the message? In theory, both parties are involved in transporting the message, so...?

Makes you want to take up something as litigiously-safe as underwater basketweaving and marble making. :S

Ciao,
Rich
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by WA2JJH on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
All I can say during the WTC holocaust during 9/11, ham radio did play an important role.

Cellphones were overloadED. Seems like the the EMS service was down. Police,fire and EMS had a severe commumications breakdown.

Hams DID provide emergency traffic...period!
Want to use encyption......99.4% of the worlds population DOES NOT KNOW CW!
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by WA2JJH on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The HIPPA act is only to be observed by Pharmacies and other health care workers in NON-EMERGENT SITUATIONS.

HOWEVER DAILY VIOLATIONS DO OCCURE. Insurence companies very often have P.A.'s and nurses asking your pharmacy about info you think is confidential.
Your pharmacy can be fooled all too easy!

It is very hard to prove a HIPPA breach. Neither party will testify.

Same as when you switch DR's. It is a rare DR. that will say the other DR did not do right by you.

Call it HIPPACRACY!

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KI4FJT on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I usually don't post much...but the answer is easy, don't reinvent the wheel....just use CW .... The Ham Radio SECRET CODE!
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by KC0NYK on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Another of those what if scenarios...Let's just cut to the chase...when all the superduper systems with the unbreakable logrithms go south because of the failure of the infastructure required to support them it is doubtful if anyone will be really concered about
thier privacy issues.

Also, if you take a look at good old Parts 95 and 97 it quickly becomes crystal clear that when life is at stake pretty much all the rules go out the window anyhow. Really, if you are about to drown, do you really care who throws the rope?

That's just my view....of course I've seen quite a number of emergencies in my career. Never have had anyone ask me if I were going to keep thier medical information secret while I was stopping the bleeding, doing cpr or delivering a baby on the side of the road.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC0NYK on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
You should consider retiring from the human race. I don't know where you trained, but it was hammered into the heads of our class that you NEVER FAIL TO RENDER AID...on the side of the road off duty you are protected by the Good Samaritan Laws which exist in every state. As long as you do not exceed your training and experience in an emergency you are never liable.

Besides which, there are somethings higher than the possibility of being sued...my honor and duty amoung them.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W6EM on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KI4FH, Burt says:

".......Here in your old stomping grounds I was part of a post hurricane task force that went out to assay damage after Charley. We were not needed. The authorities had their own local comms setup with intra-team comms on GSM.

Of course when in the dire straits offered by a critical, wide area event such as Katrina, I am sure they would find a crack to stuff us in to provide some assistance."........

Hello, Burt. Although I wasn't participating due to health reasons while living in Bradenton, FL, I distinctly remember the call going out on the NI4CE/K4WCF repeater system for a ham with a service monitor to respond to Port Charlotte. One did, with an escort from a Port Charlotte Police Officer (who also was a ham) for 50 miles, Code 3.

Why? The Port Charlotte trunked radio system went bye-bye and an old VHF repeater they were trying to fire up had the duplexers messed up.

Yes, three days later, some Next-*ell types showed up on wheels, I suppose. But, I remember the pleas on the Tampa Bay TV and Radio stations to not use Nextel as the system was overloaded and not working in most areas hit by Charley for the first few days.

Maybe HR wasn't needed 3,4 or 5 days later, but for the first couple of days. We were needed. And, we met that need.

Katrina displayed, once again for all to see, how frail and prone to single point failure that trunked systems can be. And, how a multitude of resources from outside of the immediate area could not communicate with each other.

The only example of true "interoperability" I heard was a ham with an HT talking with a Coast Guard helo, thanks to his HT being modified. Oh, sure, the FCC Katrina report talked about another crude method of passing a message: Dropping a note in a bottle from a helicopter....

What is needed is NOT encryption, or even digital mode common protocols like APCO-25. Simply a preselected high band VHF segment. For example, 148-150MHz, where HR could talk to the Coast Guard, National Guard, and VHF high band public safety units, in the interest of saving lives.

And, not in ANY encrypted or even any digital modes. Just plain old +/-5kHz deviation FM. Either simplex or via a mobile repeater system.

73,

Lee
W6EM
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KE4IOK on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I always enjoy these forums. It's like old Laurel & Hardy movies. I'll be brief: I agree fully with VE7RS, AB7JK, KC5TTL and NY7Q, but W0IPL says it all. I'll volunteer but only to pass messages; let anybody put a condition on my activity and I'm gone. I'm just an unpaid volunteer.
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by NK8X on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Just make friends with you local OEM and do it every week!
See the pictures at http://pictures.kb8sfr.net/LOSTeam

Feel Free to join us Wednesdays at 7pm.

Art Snapper NK8X
EC Kalamazoo Michigan
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by AB7JK on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Look at that poor schmuck Mike Brown - the head of FEMA - and he was hung out to dry. Except for a possible book deal his life would be over.

Do you think he anticipated what would happen to him while Katrina was going on? You think he was messing up knowingly or deliberately? I don't think so. AB7JK
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W6EM on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
AB7JK Says:
"Look at that poor schmuck Mike Brown - the head of FEMA - and he was hung out to dry. Except for a possible book deal his life would be over.

Do you think he anticipated what would happen to him while Katrina was going on? You think he was messing up knowingly or deliberately? I don't think so. AB7JK"

Yes, poor schmuck Mike was scapegoated by Dubyah for Dubyah's failures.

For those who don't remember seeing the video of his pre-storm briefing, Dubyah was warned of the gravity of Katrina via teleconference while relaxing in Crawford. The day it hit, he flew on over to Phoenix for a fundraiser. Then, if that wasn't enough, the next day, he flew on to San Diego, for another fundraiser.

Ah, the third day. Probably after watching CNN coverage, he decided to do a "fly by" and buzzed the city on his way back to DC. He didn't want to land, although he could have at Baton Rouge or several military bases close by.

Mike Brown was to blame. Yep. Now, that's leadership. Real leadership.

Lee
W6EM








 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC8VWM on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Here's something interesting...

Do a Google search for the term "Failure"

Well..., what's the very first hit that comes up?

 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by AB7JK on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
We are all pawns in the 'blame game'. During Hurricane Katrina alot of people made mistakes but none more so than those who stayed behind after they were warned to get out.

Mike Brown was made a scapgoat and the so called 'victims' were rewarded - $2000 in free money, free housing, media sympathy - you think there is justice in the world?

You think just wanting to be a good person and to do right will protect you, will see you through? You think helping unworthy people is noble and honorable? It makes them worse - and you are responsible.

I don't mean to be too philosophical but human pride tries to prove itself right. The act of pride is to always see itself in a good light - to prove it's right, never wrong. The act of trying to do good is a denial of reality. If we are good why do we doubt ourselves? - what is that mask we wear - that never seems to feel right - that we show others for approval and acceptance? Why can't we peel it off? What would happen if we did?

People who are good don't know they are good - those who are brave don't know they are brave. They have no self doubt, and no conflict. If you are good why do you have so many problems? If you are right why do your efforts make things worse? Let go...
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by AB7JK on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I don't care about politics, left, right, or blame. You have to look much deeper - there is a spiritual war going on - and the spirit may be all that's left of most of us in the next few years. Are you going to die in your hate of Bush, hate of liberals, hate of anything?

Think there is no hell? - think hating what you think is wrong makes you right?

Most of the posts on this site are so superficial and shallow; left vs right; license vs no license, code, no code - just to prove you are right or to make others look wrong.

Anyone up for some meaningful discussion besides the same old meaningless arguments?
There's got to be a few of you out there....
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K0JEG on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
NY7Q Wrote: " My brother was a surgical nurse not long ago who assisted with many trauma cases at the local emergency hospital.
One day he stopped at a car accident, helped, comforted, stopped bleeding that was life threatning to the young lady injured.
She died later at the hospital
Guess who was sued by her insurance company.??"

Please provide us with the court case number and state so we can do a search on EDGAR. I call bull**** on this one.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC8VWM on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Guess who was sued by her insurance company.??

------

Keep in mind that it is common practice for most insurance companies to sue anybody either directly or indirectly involved as a matter of protocal and formality.

It is the facts presented that wins the case, not the initial lawsuit presented by the insurance company.

Personally, I don't think they had a single leg to stand on.

They have to prove "negligence" before they are successful in any lawsuit and stopping to help and comfort a person in need of assistance until EMS arrives is not considered negligent activity in the eyes of the law.

73
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC8VWM on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
It is up to the served agency (you know, Red Cross, Salvation Army, EOC, Hospital, etc.) to create the message. If we follow procedure (yes, I understand that is an alien concept to a few of you) we "pass messages exactly as written". The responsibility for content (beyond those items prohibited by Part 97) is up to the served agency.

-----

100% correct.

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KE7CDV on July 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Its the ham spectrum they want so they can convert some of it to data (Internet traffic). At first they will say its for support to the Global War on Terror -- but soon it will simply be another form of low speed Internet that is robust enough to handle adverse weather and terrorist scenarios..."

I don't think anyone is trying to play the "Global War on Terror" card at TAPR. They want nothing more than an updated version of the packet radio system that's been around for *many decades* now... radios talking to computers that themselves are interconnected. The Internet is just a modernized version of the packet networks of 30 years ago, and as I've said before, I find it incredible that people have a problem with people wanting to use amateur radio frequencies to access the Internet if they don't with using them to access packet radio BBSes that relay bulletins, e-mail, etc. amongst themselves.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W4LGH on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I quote "The responsibility for content (beyond those items prohibited by Part 97) is up to the served agency." This is a 100% correct statement!

As the ARES EC for St Johns County Florida, we have pondered this for several years and stand behind this 100%. We have a great releationship with our "served agency" which is the county EOC, which includes the sheriff's office and Fire/Rescue. The county, at their expense, has bought us nice equipment, and setup a complete communications room for us @ the EOC. They have also donated older police radios, which we were able to re'pgm to our freqs. and use them @ the counties setup shelters. We are also setup in the local hospital, and have full packet communication between the hospital, EOC and our special needs shelter, thus allowing us to transfer drug info and special care for these out patients.

There are a lot of political issues that come into play with all of this, if you let it. We try hard not to allow these political issues to become a part of our services. Some political issues you CAN NOT avoid, but most you can simply overlook, and do what you think is right to save human life and property.

I agree our govt is making it harder and harder to do what we've done for years. One of their recient brain farts has been to try and put us all together in one tightly knit group, as they do with their communications ,that fails when disaster hits. What has made Ham radio work, is the fact that we all operate independently, and a lot of the time our EGOs, that was mentioned in an earlier post, drive us to do what we do.

In conclusion, all I can say is do the best you can, do what you feel is right to save life, and hang in there.

73 to all de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by AB2MH on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KC8VWM wrote:
>Here's something interesting...
>
>Do a Google search for the term "Failure"
>
>Well..., what's the very first hit that comes up?

There's a simple explanation for that. It's called Google bomb:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_bomb
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by K2WH on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Kill the lawyers. Thats why we are where we are today, worrying about the sanctity of personal information and privacy issues.

K2WH
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K8MHZ on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The Google bomb entry in Wiki was very enlightening.

At the bottom you will see a fairly lengthy discussion about the company Quixtar attempting to manipulate the Google search engine.

Quixtar, a branch of Alticor (used to be AmWay) is headed by Michigan's gubernatorial hopeful Dick DeVos.

Thanks for pointing me to the site!
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W9OY on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
AB7JK is right

Superman is dead.

It wasn't Lex Luthor or Kryptonite that killed him, it was Lexus and Harvard Law.

It is clear to me the "experts" on this site have never suffered the multi-year pain and expense of being sued for doing the right thing with a bad outcome. Regardless of the ultimate disposition of the lawsuit, the process of being sued is excruciating. You may have been absolutely correct in your judgement and action but it may cost you several hundred thousand dollars to have the privledge of proving you were right.

Do you think your government agency will protect you? Just ask private citizen Scotter Libby how his government agency protected him. Just ask private citizen Michael Brown how his government agency protected him.

There is one rule in this country today. If you whip it out someone will gladly come along and cut it off for you. You will not get kissed or thanked or any anesthesia before the incision.

73 W9OY
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by N6JSX on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Sir, your intentions are admirable but HAMdom has relinquished its EMERGENCY role to Cell phones, CB, & FRS/GMRS CERTs.

I have posted the article below a number of times on eHAM and othere sites since 1997, all it generates is bickering and condemnation of the thought/effort with such lame comments as: why THAT frequency, aren't all HAM frequencies for emergency use, or you should have used a cell phone. The total focus of the article gets trashed by stupid nit-picking. HAMdom (as seen by the comments received on this site) does NOT want to promote our chartered purpose, the users here would rather cut-up a good idea'effort and then cry about the doom of HAMdom - than get off their butts and support it.

Good luck in your effort but unless it is blessed as an original idea from the ARRL it doesn't hold a snowballs chance in hell to get HAMs (on eHAM) to support any noble cause. But you will be drawn and quartered by the self professed know-it-alls of eHAM! Many of the eHAM commentors that live here (shallow life) need to be heard even if they have nothign to offer.

My article:

HAM Radio NEEDS a dedicated NATIONAL EMERGENCY Frequency!
_____________________________________________________________________

Have you ever been traveling and come upon a severe vehicle accident requiring immediate EMERGENCY �life-saving� assistance or an imminent need to report a dangerous road hazard? You begin calling for help on ALL the listed repeaters to discover you can't bring up any of the repeaters. Or no one is monitoring the ONLY repeater that you can key up. Most repeater guides do not annotate THE DOMINATE or wide-area coverage repeaters. Often I found many of the listed repeaters may NOT even be operational and the PL tones are wrong or not listed at all. All of this assumes that you have a repeater guide with you during your travels! I've blindly called on 146.520 MHz simplex (National Calling frequency) for help only to get NO response.
While commuting home from Milwaukee in a winter blizzard making Interstate-43 a single lane snow covered slippery mess, I spotted three occupied vehicles in the ditch. I tried in vain to raise any HAM on many area repeaters. As typical no one was monitoring.

During major holiday weekends I've found the CB REACT groups monitoring channel 9 and 19, but seldom do I find this type of effort on HAM radio except in California. From San Jose, Sacramento, and Fresno to the Bakersfield grade in the San Joaquin Valley, a stretch of hundreds of miles, local HAM�s link many two meter repeaters and run a 24 hour Travelers NET covering most of Interstate-5 and Highway 99. They provide updated weather information, road conditions, and EMERGENCY reporting access to traveling Amateur�s. This is an outstanding service but it is only good if you know the repeater frequencies used in the link.
Part 97.1.a - states that part of Amateur Radio�s CHARTER is "EMERGENCY communications" and yet we have NO special frequency to assist "everyday local EMERGENCIES." Part 97 Rules specifies certain band spectrum for beacons, simplex/QRP, CW, satellite, and repeater operations. But there is NO SPECIFIC EMERGENCY frequency in Part 97.
I propose that 146.550 MHz FM be made the
United States Amateur Radio NATIONAL EMERGENCY (simplex) FREQUENCY!
�EMERGENCY communications� are defined as communications concerning the immanent pearl to human life or loss of personal property. Communications concerning hazards to the public�s safety that may cause a loss of life or property.
Other communications services have a specific EMERGENCY calling frequency or channel. CB has channel nine (27.065 MHz), boaters have Marine VHF channel sixteen (156.800 MHz), the International Maritime Distress frequency is 2182 KHz, and the Aviation EMERGENCY frequency is 121.500/234.000 MHz.
The 146.550 MHz was selected to accommodating most old and new 2 meter transceivers. This frequency is not, typically, a repeater frequency or in the satellite, CW, or beacon operational areas. Local area repeaters (6m, 2m, 220, 440, etc.) could monitor this SINGLE frequency with an auxiliary receiver. When a signal is received on 146.550 MHz, with either the EMERGENCY PL tone (recommended 100.0 Hz) or a DTMF tone of at least three seconds. I.e., LTZ (long-term-zero) the repeater could automatically re-transmit the received audio through a local repeater. This would alert monitoring HAM�s that a need of immediate assistance is being requested on 146.550 MHz.
Amateur�s in rural areas using a scanner or a simple crystal monitoring receiver could detect an EMERGENCY transmission on 146.550 MHz. This rural HAM could then render assistance separate from any repeater service. This frequency gives ALL of Amateur Radio (and SWL�s) a single focal point frequency across the USA to monitor or to use in getting EMERGENCY HELP!
The traveling Amateur would NO longer need repeater guides or repeater PL knowledge to get EMERGENCY �life-saving� assistance. Just a FM transceiver that can transmit on 146.550 MHz .
The 2 meter band is the MOST logical beginning for this, type of dedicated, EMERGENCY frequency as 2 meters is the most commonly used HAM band with nearly all scanners covering this frequency, the most hand-held, and mobile transceivers in Amateur operation.
This single EMERGENCY frequency (with PL tone) could be pre-programmed into one of your transceiver memories allowing easy and quick access. This would also eliminate the dangerous operation of trying multiple repeater frequencies and PL tones while driving down the highway.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1CJS on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Dale,

I've read your article, and however right or wrong you may be there are two things that stand out in the current setup:

1. There is a national calling frequency already. 146.52. It has been and still is--under the amateur radio gentleman's agreement--considered wrong to use that frequency for anything but establishing contact and reporting emergencies. Time and again hams have been asked to move off that frequency when they are simply ragchewing.

You may say sure, that's OK--where that frequency is monitored. And that isn't in too many places according to many hams. There is another protocol involved here, however. That is LiTZ, Long Tone Zero, that is used as an alert tone for emergencies as referenced in the ARRL Repeater Directory. Stations monitoring 146.52 may not pay much attention to the radio unless a LiTZ tone is heard. If that is heard, there is a much better chance someone listening will respond. Along the route 495 corridor in Massachusetts (the northern half) there is a local police department that monitors 146.52 but only responds to a LiTZ signal.

2. Many complain, as I said above, that 146.52 isn't monitored. What makes you think any other designated frequency would be any different, that is to say, would be monitored any more than 146.52?

Please understand, I'm not trying to argue anything here, just to give food for thought. 73.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC5CQD on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"""Yes, poor schmuck Mike was scapegoated by Dubyah for Dubyah's failures.

For those who don't remember seeing the video of his pre-storm briefing, Dubyah was warned of the gravity of Katrina via teleconference while relaxing in Crawford. The day it hit, he flew on over to Phoenix for a fundraiser. Then, if that wasn't enough, the next day, he flew on to San Diego, for another fundraiser.

Ah, the third day. Probably after watching CNN coverage, he decided to do a "fly by" and buzzed the city on his way back to DC. He didn't want to land, although he could have at Baton Rouge or several military bases close by.

Mike Brown was to blame. Yep. Now, that's leadership. Real leadership.

Lee
W6EM"""

*****************

Ahhhh....the old presidential blame game. No matter if the president is democrat or republican, he always has a thankless job.

Look folks; The president of the U.S. isn't a monarch. He doesn't have the power that was wielded by Henry VIII. He's very limited in what he can and can't do to either help or hinder the country. He's probably as in the dark about most issues as we are and depends very much on the people that surround him. Trusting in their advice and opinions. Sometimes he just listens to bad advice! A very human trait, I think.

"I can't get a pay raise....it's the president's fault."

"Interest rates went up half a percent....damn president!"

"No tax refund....friggin' Bush!" (Or Clinton or Reagan, etc., etc......)

FEMA failed for one reason. They're a government entity. Those of you that have served in the military or have worked for the government in any capacity probably already know this. Our government agencies are populated by employees that got their jobs based upon whatever quota needed to be filled by said agency. Most of them are incompetent, at best! And the few that are worth a damn usually have it beat out them within a few years of service and they become just like the rest.

The real shame of Katrina is that it showed me just how many lazy-assed americans sit around and wait for the government to take care of them. Personally, I want a government. Not a "daddy figure". I'll take care of myself, thank you very much.

Stop blaming the presidents and realize that we have a government that has become a big business and big business breeds corruption. On all levels. Not just the executive cabinet.

There was a time when I blamed President Ford for not making my parents buy me a mini-bike. Then I turned eleven and got over it.

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1CJS on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Sorry, I just noticed you do reference LiTZ further in your post. However, you say nothing about its use on 146.52! Have you tried that?

To further explain LiTZ, it is explained as being a simple method to alert others on the frequency you're on that immediate help is required. Below is a LiTZ guideline taken from the ARRL Repeater Directory and conversations with ARRL people whether LiTZ use is appropriate:

Waking (daytime) hours:

Calling CQ or another ham, no
Test of LiTZ, yes
Club message (on club repeater), yes
Driving directions, yes
Reporting drunk driver or road hazard, yes
Breakdown, yes
Safety of life and property, yes

Sleeping (nighttime) hours, the following change to no:

Testing LiTZ, club message, and driving directions.

Again, I just offer food for thought. 73.



 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1CJS on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Look folks; The president of the U.S. isn't a monarch. He doesn't have the power that was wielded by Henry VIII. He's very limited in what he can and can't do to either help or hinder the country. He's probably as in the dark about most issues as we are and depends very much on the people that surround him......."

Not quite true. In emergency situations he can issue directives that are followed, he then has the responcibility to explain his directives after the fact. Bush probably was informed about the Katrina situation and was probably was given misinformation. If he was informed and given correct information (as most sources seem to indicate) then it IS HIS FAULT FOR NOT MOVING QUICKER!

One way or another, this is water under the bridge and already in the middle of the ocean! There isn't a president, alive or dead, who didn't make mistakes. Dubya just seems to have made more than his share--and that isn't just MY opinion.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KB9YZL on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hmmmmm …………Yet another thread filled with hypothetical “legalese”!

The second sentence in the author’s article was:

>>>>”Future Ham Radio Emergency Communications and the lack of it being used in the public service/emergency/disaster sector. “<<<<<

Well, …….If this is truly the concern, then maybe we should look at more basic reasons for the decline in “Ham” usage: …….Like maybe the growing sentiment that; “It’s only a hobby! ……No one can FORCE me to be involved in Public Service!”.

If you feel that “It’s only a Hobby”, then ask yourself this: ……..”What am I doing to merit (or more to the point, EARN) the use of the bandwidth granted to me???”

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC8VWM on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Presidents are like baseball teams.

When they win baseball games - everyone likes them.

When they loose - no one likes them.

So you see, everyone is "programmed" to react in this manner in all facets of our society including:

Our careers
Our education
The cars we drive

...and heck dare I say it, even our license class.

We have turned everything in our lives into one grand competitive sport.

Watching Bush and /or FEMA respond to Katrina from the grand stands is no different. Never mind any "good" anyone has done during the course of thier duties in the past, thats always "dismissed" from our minds.

Our society is in some perpetual state of constantly focusing on "measuring current performace" as if that's all that ever matters.

/rant

73
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC5CQD on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"One way or another, this is water under the bridge and already in the middle of the ocean! There isn't a president, alive or dead, who didn't make mistakes. Dubya just seems to have made more than his share--and that isn't just MY opinion."

********************

No. I'm sure that record is still held by Jimmy Carter. And that's not just MY opinion.

Be that as it may;

I wasn't there and in his shoes. I'm sure that he did the best that he could with what he had. I'm positive that Mr. Carter didn't intend to make us the laughing stock of the entire planet. It just happened.

I'll bet that if any of us could sit in the oval office for a mere week we would all start humming a different tune.

You think it's an easy job? Look at the presidents when they go into office. Then look at them when they leave. Eight years in office ages them 20 years physically.

I may not agree with a president's politics but he always gets my respect for making the hard decisions. Even if I don't much like the decision.

I'm just thankful that I don't have to make those decisions. And for a paltry $250,000.00 per year!!

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC5CQD on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Presidents are like baseball teams.

When they win baseball games - everyone likes them.

When they loose - no one likes them.

So you see, everyone is "programmed" to react in this manner in all facets of our society including:

Our careers
Our education
The cars we drive

...and heck dare I say it, even our license class.

We have turned everything in our lives into one grand competitive sport.

Watching Bush and /or FEMA respond to Katrina from the grand stands is no different. Never mind any "good" anyone has done during the course of thier duties in the past, thats always "dismissed" from our minds.

Our society is in some perpetual state of constantly focusing on "measuring current performace" as if that's all that ever matters.

/rant

73"

********************

KC8VWM......

No truer words have ever been spoken.

We have become a "knee-jerk-reaction" society. We have to blame SOMEONE!!! Someone must be held accountable. Someone must go to jail. SOMEONE MUST BE SUED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess that since the president is so distant and far removed from most of us......he becomes an easy target.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1OU on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Per AB7JK:

"Why bother? You have an accident and more than likely you weren't being careful enough to begin with. Why should I have to pay for saving YOUR rear end?

I work in emergency medical services and when I pass a serious accident I keep driving. I live to put food on the table another day. AB7JK"

Sounds as if you are in the wrong line of work and it is time for you to go.
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by WR1TX on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I also believe that AB7JK needs to go into a different line of work. Almost ANY EMT or other similar personnel would stop to help if he/she saw an accident or the like. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, AB7JK won't do stop and help! Doesn't really seem to me that the man cares about his fellow man.

Every single EMT I know would stop and help...without question. My XYL (a nurse) and I (a health unit coordinator) would as well, working in the medical field as we do. Why? Because we care for our fellow man, bottom line.

Warren, WR1TX
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W6EM on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
N6JSX Says:
"My article:

HAM Radio NEEDS a dedicated NATIONAL EMERGENCY Frequency! ".....

Yes, my friend, not only ham radio, but other services as well.

The difference, for example, in the case of 121.5/243.0 for aviation, and Channel 16 (Calling/Emergency-Only)for marine uses is that each are multi-ply monitored. Guaranteed. 121.5 and perhaps 243 are even monitored by satellites. You are virtually guaranteed that someone will respond. Now, marine Channel 16, grant you, in the middle of the Mojave Desert probably won't receive a response, but, then, who would expect a vessel there to be in distress anyway?

Here's another hypothetical: Based on the lessons learned from Katrina and other disasters, interoperability between emergency responders and others was a problem. So, why not select one or two high-band VHF frequencies for emergency communications?
Both could be just outside the 2M band, say, 149.0MHz, for example. It could be monitored by the military, civilian public safety, coast guard, you name it.
And, with receivers designed to actuate an annunciator if a carrier is detected. That way, busy folks wouldn't have to sit by receivers continuosly listening.

The frequency could be used in larger scale emergencies as part of the interoperability solution. The Amateur Radio Service, the Coast Guard, the military, CAP, and high band VHF equipped public safety agencies could monitor the channel for traffic. Even satellite receivers might be feasible. Annunciator/alarm activation would make it extremely easy to implement.

Why a non-amateur band frequency? Simply because we wouldn't necessarily want to give up part of our 2M band, but, the feds now are assigned 148-150 segment and its sparsely used.

We could still participate, as Part 97 gives us the authority to transmit anywhere, by any means necessary, if lives are at stake.

Call it a National Emergency Frequency.

73,

Lee
W6EM

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC8VWM on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Every single EMT I know would stop and help...without question. My XYL (a nurse) and I (a health unit coordinator) would as well, working in the medical field as we do. Why? Because we care for our fellow man, bottom line.

Warren, WR1TX

----------------

Yup...it's just the right thing to do.

I might even share a few late at night, driving in the middle of nowhere encounters I ran across sometime.

...Screw the lawsuits!!

:)

73 Charles - KC8VWM
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1CJS on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>> "One way or another, this is water under the bridge
>> and already in the middle of the ocean! There isn't
>> a president, alive or dead, who didn't make
>> mistakes. Dubya just seems to have made more than
>> his share--and that isn't just MY opinion."

>> ********************

>> No. I'm sure that record is still held by Jimmy
>> Carter. And that's not just MY opinion.

Hey there, I didn't say Dubya made the most--agree about Carter--I just said he more than his share. Seems that everybody but you and a few others hold that opinion!


 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1CJS on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
To Warren and Charles,

Others care about their fellow man too. The issue that we seem to be talking about here is the mentality of some of those that are our fellow man, and nothing more.

A friend of mine was recently in an auto accident, and he told me that within 3 days of the accident he was visited at his house by both a lawyer and a chiropractor. Imagine, a doctor making a house call, and a lawyer with his 'we can get a lot out of the insurance company" line doing the same.

I have to agree with a previous poster, the system is broke. It isn't going to get any better. And you've got to watch out for you and yours because those 'gentlemen' will slit your throat one way or another.

Reminds me of lines from a movie that goes something like this:

"Within three days of their arrest, the gang was tried and convicted of the crimes they were accused of."

"Three days!?"

"Yep. The justice system moves swiftly now that they've gotten rid of all the lawyers."

Peace, gentlemen and 73. Oh, and remember this joke?

What do you call a busload of lawyers driving off a cliff? A beginning!

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by WF7A on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>>The difference, for example, in the case of 121.5/243.0 for aviation, and Channel 16 (Calling/Emergency-Only)for marine uses is that each are multi-ply monitored. Guaranteed. 121.5 and perhaps 243 are even monitored by satellites. You are virtually guaranteed that someone will respond.<<

Just not immediately in the majority of cases, my friend. Nearly every N-numbered aircraft is equipped with an ELT (Emergency Locator Transmitter) that, when it experiences a good-sized impact, will self-trip and broadcast an emergency signal (usually a warbling tone) on 121.5 MHz. There are two problems:

1) If you're out in the sticks the ELT may not be picked up by anybody (though I've taught my student pilots that they should monitor 121.5 on their cross-country flights just for this reason)...especially if aircraft owners forget to change out the ELT's batteries every two years--per the manufacture's specs and the FARs--so the signal may be weak to nil.

2) Since scores of ELTs are accidentally tripped every day due to rough or bouncy landings, air traffic controllers don't jump out of their seats when they hear one--they'll try to triangulate where the signal's coming from then will contact airborne pilots (if far) or a ground-based crew (if near) to see if they can spot aircraft wreckage. (Ninety-five percent of the time they find the intact airplane safely parked on the ramp with the pilot unaware that that the ELT had tripped.) If the source of the signal isn't easily located within an hour or two, then ATC (or Flight Service) will call the Search & Rescue types to go looking.

So, don't light up a stogie thinking that the S&R cavalry will charge over to the hill to rescue you before your last puff--it could take many hours, if not days in rare cases, for someone to show up.

Ciao,
Rich
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W6EM on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
WF7A, Rich says:
"So, don't light up a stogie thinking that the S&R cavalry will charge over to the hill to rescue you before your last puff--it could take many hours, if not days in rare cases, for someone to show up.

Ciao,
Rich"

Rich: Keep in mind, though, as I'm sure you are, that ELT's are small and only radiate a few milliWatts. And, antennas aren't too effective either, as I recall.
Even for the ones pilots carry in their shirt pockets.

Also, a 25 to 50 Watt VHF FM mobile signal, with a decent antenna, or better yet, atop a hill, would be heard a great deal further than the typical small, warbling peanut-whistle ELTs at ground level.

Even VHF AM aircraft radio transmitters themselves run only a couple of Watts. I guess to limit propagation distance on purpose, for good reason. Not true for HF-SSB over-the-water gear, though.

Since public safety agencies have to communicate in "the sticks", facilities at elevations to cover remote areas already exist. Adding a receiver-transmitter and antenna for 149 MHz to those wouldn't be a big deal and would get the job done. In fact, instead of FEMA/Congress wasting money with the ARRL, it could fund the creation of such sites.

Lee
W6EM



 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W5HTW on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Ahh!! I've been waiting for this! Another "My hero, the ham" thread! Wow. Has anyone ever mentioned before how hams save the world? Wow. I am impressed. Wow. Can't get enough "wow." Hams are heros? Wow. Another wow.

Darn. I can't resist! ANOTHER "WOW"

Ah, that out of the way.. Does anyone remember what amateur radio is? Or has everyone sat at a VE session and been awarded a "I'm a cop, Medic, fire fighter" certificate? Maybe we should get the FCC to stamp right on our licenses, above the words "Amateur Radio License" something like "And World Savior."

Coming down another notch. When we respond, we respond at the BECK AND CALL of certain agencies. We don't invent our own. If we are in ARES, we respond to the beckoning of the Emergency Manager. We can volunteer to respond, but we don't go rushing off to every fire scene and annoucncing, "Stand back, a real HAM is on the scene now. You guys go home."

Anyone remember how ham radio did this before the EMCOM craze that began in the 1990s? Well, I do. And we had done it for years and decades. We helped when we were needed. Then we shut up and went home, and we did not pass TV channels on the way, and we did not collect $200. Or Oscars, or Emmys, or Superhero awards. Why must be suddenly be Mr. and Mrs. EMCOM?

Perhaps I sit on a different side of the fence, for here is my Today's Devil's Advocate stance. We do NOT respond, as hams, to direct traffic, serve food, wash cars, scoop dog mature. We respond because we can supply POSSIBLY needed radio communication. They do not need hams to scoop up dog doo. If they don't need extra communications, they don't need us. They need general volunteers, and we can do that, of course, but leave the radios at home.

OK, back to anti-Superhero mode. Amateur radio does not need encryption. No one here seems to understand what that would mean to this hobby/service. It would make us (my God!! ) responsible creatures who had to abide by extremely strict rules. And none of us want that. Once we become a quasi-government entity, we will get REAL government restrictions, like just how often you can say "10-4" each hour, and that you can never say "you're Q5." We become government radio. And we end amateur radio. We can be one or the other, but we can't be both. If we find ourselves emulating Public Safety too much, we are going to find ourselves with type certified radios, with no front panel or user programming other than a channel selector and volume control. Please, we do not want to go there. If we DO, though, do it as a volunteer with your fire department, or even your sheriff's possee or reserve police officer department. Stop making amateur radio a branch of the army.

Yes, the federal government is indeed building rather massive communications systems. So are state and local governments. And, lordy be, bless the hams, they work. We wish they did not, so we can go play hero. But they DO work. And they work very well. If any of you are really into finding out what your local government actually has for communications (and if they will tell you, as they think you are wannabe cops) you'll find they have voice, data, fax, encryption if necessary, multiple repeaters, backup power, professional operators that do this 8 or 12 hours a day, every day, high quality systems that are NOT user programmable (read: user screwupable) that are not used for chit chat or unnecessary signal reports, and that interface with state, local, county, regional and even national systems.

Yeah, they got 'em. And they work. First response teams will be on scene with portable cell phone systems (COWS) before the hams stop saying, "Yeah, Joe, you have a good signal into the repeater, so are you copying me OK?"


Ham radio is best at what it really does. And that does not mean playing cop. It does mean, though, quick response to situations like tornados, SKYWARN, earthquakes, floods. And then it means getting the ^@%$@* out of the way when the agencies get on scene with their own, commercial, encrypted if necessary, equipment.

We have to know when to start. We have to know even more when to stop. The professional systems DO work, and they have millions of dollars in them, even in local governments. Your $200 HT is not going to be necessary after the first pros arrive on scene.

OK? I speak as DEC of this county, working closely with the Emergency Manager, County Manager, and other authorities. My value to them, my top value to them, is in knowing when to stay out of the way and let them handle it. And being prepared in case they can't but the reality is, as so many emcom-recruits from the 90s say, "this ain't 1950." Yeah, that's right. "It ain't." And those sgencies are not stuck with 1950s technologies either. They are ahead of us, by far.

As these agencies have improved (and Katrina was a major learning point - and lessons WERE learned, indeed) the ham is no longer the asset he was in 1950 when local agencies had a single 45 MHZ radio, no computers, no fax, no internet, no portable radios, no COWS, no satellite phones, no GPS, no cell phones, no on-board computers in their cars.

The ARRL ARES motto is "When all else fails." The problem is, we don't wait for that before rushing in and proclaiming ourselves to be heros. Should be train? Absolutely! But when we arrive on scene with the light bars, uniforms and badges, those authorities turn their heads away, and rightly so.

What we need, I think, is for more people to enjoy ham radio, and be ready to respond to an emergency, than for more people to get into this hobby to be Mighty Mouse, and ignore the other aspects of the hobby - working DX, EME, ragchewing, a dab of CW, some weak signal, experimenting with antennas. I believe most of the EMCOM volunteers with their HTs would actually be far more valuable to the communities they wish to serve, by dropping into their local fire department and volunteering to take part as a volunteer fire fighter.

And those folks don't run to the TV station after every fire either.

Ed
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W6EM on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
W5HTW, Ed, says:

"Yes, the federal government is indeed building rather massive communications systems. So are state and local governments. And, lordy be, bless the hams, they work. We wish they did not, so we can go play hero. But they DO work. And they work very well. If any of you are really into finding out what your local government actually has for communications (and if they will tell you, as they think you are wannabe cops) you'll find they have voice, data, fax, encryption if necessary, multiple repeaters, backup power, professional operators that do this 8 or 12 hours a day, every day, high quality systems that are NOT user programmable (read: user screwupable) that are not used for chit chat or unnecessary signal reports, and that interface with state, local, county, regional and even national systems.

Yeah, they got 'em. And they work. First response teams will be on scene with portable cell phone systems (COWS) before the hams stop saying, "Yeah, Joe, you have a good signal into the repeater, so are you copying me OK?" "

Ed, what a bunch of acrid (beyond sour) grapes.
First off, if you took the time to read, or even observe, you wouldn't be praising the super-duper-trunker-prone-to-single-point-failure (whew) systems that many have now or will have that get sucked into trunked systems as a solution. Yeah, when the sun is shining, no breezes blowing and the earth isn't shaking. Or, some terrorist gang making another cataclysmic mess out of infrastructure.

So, instant half dozen or so portable Cell phone Cells On Wheels, eh? To Blackhawks have them built-in? Nope, and they can't be wheeled in when the roads are out, etc. etc. and Diesel is in scarce supply and getting commandeered to run real emergency generators such as hospital units.

Take the time, Ed, before you spout off another retort, to read the FCC Katrina Committee Report in its entirety. Where trunked systems failed (New Orleans) one interoperability approach was to drop notes from a helicopter in a bottle. Now, wow, those expensive federal, state and municipal systems that we taxpayers footed the bill for really worked well, didn't they? Yeah, they worked well for the big /\/\. Yeah, they and M/A Comm couldn't get there fast enough with some band aids to try and shut up the huge failure story. No, it was absolutely clear. Simple, dependable, simplex or mobile repeaters worked.

Lee
W6EM




 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by GILLIAM_LINEBERRY_EX_N4VOX on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
What are you even talking about. With over 1,000 hams participating in Katrina alone, it is obvious that ARES is working well. In fact, working better than ever before with reimbursement for expenses even offered.

I think some people are afraid to be happy.
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by AB7JK on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
People who's lives are a mess always blame others - the president, their boss, their spouse, the government.

None of those entities are responsible for your happiness
and your blame is just a denial of the part YOU have played.

It's your own ego need or selfishness that led you down that path that didn't lead to the outcome you expected.

Look at yourself instead.

As W.C. Filds said "You can't cheat an honest man".
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by AB7JK on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
RE: You should have an attitude more like John the Bastist since that is the way most of us are going to end up.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by AB7JK on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
pardon my spelling
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC5CQD on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
""Hey there, I didn't say Dubya made the most--agree about Carter--I just said he more than his share. Seems that everybody but you and a few others hold that opinion!""

************************

Oh, I'm certain that Bush isn't perfect. In fact, he has done a few things that I wasn't particularly happy about but.....

I don't know all of the "why's and wherefore's" of certain situations. I'm sure he has more info than I do about most things. And as I said before; presidents listen to their advisors and sometimes they act on bad advice. Hey, it's gonna happen!

My point was that you can't blame everything on the president. It's silly and quite unrealistic. The government as a whole?? Yeah, you can blame them but no one man(woman) in our government has the power to screw up the entire system with a bad decision or two.
 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by N1GXC on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Why don't we just get a federal law passed making amateur radio operators the grand pubah's of emergency communications? Get a grip boy's...Stop dreaming of your own self importance.

Dan.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W6EM on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Why don't we just get a federal law passed making amateur radio operators the grand pubah's of emergency communications? Get a grip boy's...Stop dreaming of your own self importance. "

Not a bad idea. That way, we could trade our propeller hats in for Haliburton-made turbans with gold tassles. We'll even Dub-Yah Dan, the ham-man.

Nah, we aren't important. Especially those of us outspoken few here on eHam. The important ones all wear the uniform: Orange vests and those funny hats. And, dual fanny-packs for extra HT batteries. Visibars, magnetic self-indulging door signs and electronic sirens attached to personal vehicles. And, lets not leave out dual screwdriver antennas with phasing harnesses for a little directivity like they do on 11 Meters.






 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W6EM on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KC5CQD Says:

"And as I said before; presidents listen to their advisors and sometimes they act on bad advice."

Its just when they don't listen, are condescending, and arrogantly charge ahead in spite of good advice that really worries me. For calibration purposes, read about Colin Powell in Woodward's Plan of Attack. A good example of Bush's listening and advice-taking skills.

Former President Carter may have made his share of mistakes, but, he's humble enough to admit them and to blame himself. Even publicly. Something I've never seen Dubyah do in a meaningful, believable way. And, not even in the ballpark for Cheney. Every time I see a close up view of that guy, I wonder how many times his dentist has had to readjust his overbite from clinching his teeth too much.


A Disgruntled Republican,

W6EM




 
Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possible?  
by N1GXC on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
WOW! W6EM is a flaming liberal! I'm amazed at how a liberal can turn a conversation on emergency communications into an attack on the President, vice-president and society in general. He then goes on to kiss Jimmy Carter's a**. Remember, Clinton "did not have sex with that woman".

Lee, write a letter to your local liberal rag and stick to ham radio related issues on e-ham. See what I mean. I now apologize to the code-no code people. At least you stick to ham related issues.

Dan (hi-hi)
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K8MHZ on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Ever wonder why there has never been a President that was a ham?

Is the Tech test REALLY that hard??

:)
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC5CQD on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
""KC5CQD Says:

"And as I said before; presidents listen to their advisors and sometimes they act on bad advice."

Its just when they don't listen, are condescending, and arrogantly charge ahead in spite of good advice that really worries me. For calibration purposes, read about Colin Powell in Woodward's Plan of Attack. A good example of Bush's listening and advice-taking skills.

Former President Carter may have made his share of mistakes, but, he's humble enough to admit them and to blame himself. Even publicly. Something I've never seen Dubyah do in a meaningful, believable way. And, not even in the ballpark for Cheney. Every time I see a close up view of that guy, I wonder how many times his dentist has had to readjust his overbite from clinching his teeth too much.


A Disgruntled Republican,

W6EM""

************************************

That is true, Mr. McVey but as I recall....Mr. Carter only admitted to those mistakes AFTER he left office. Let's give Mr. Bush the chance to leave his post before we start screaming about what he didn't admit to!! I'll guarantee you that in the years following his term, we will hear President Bush admit to many screw-ups. Just like Reagan, Bush Sr. and Clinton.

They're only men. Just like you and me.

You can piss and moan about how "George dubyah" is incompetent till your heart's content but it doesn't change the fact that the president of the United States isn't the cause of society's woes.

You, me and society in general are the cause of the problems we now face. Our president...whomever he(she) may be....spends his career walking a very fine tightrope. Trying at all times to keep everyone happy.

Ultimately.....no matter what decision the president makes, someone's pissed about it.

As I said originally; It's a THANKLESS job.

Look to yourself and the little microcosm in which you dwell to find happiness. Stop blaming the president. It's silly and quite childish.

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by NL7W on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
K8MHZ said:

"Is the Tech test REALLY that hard?? :)"

NL7W says:

"No, it is not!" Just a few days ago I discovered that the new, NCVEC developed, 392 test question & answer pool for the Technician Class license contains no graphics at all now. There is no need to understand schematic symbols or the lesser block diagrams. This is a new question pool development as of July 1st of this year.

Currently, the only written exam that has any electronic graphics whatsoever is the Extra Class exam. Forget the General Class -- graphics don't exist on this test either.

Here's another example of the systematic reduction in knowledge and comprehension of anything radio-electronics technical. The dumbing down continues.

It sure looks like quantity will win out over quality, and emcomm communications will be the new emphasis and reason-for-being at the ARRL.

Oh, brother...
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC5CQD on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
""K8MHZ said:

"Is the Tech test REALLY that hard?? :)"

NL7W says:

"No, it is not!" Just a few days ago I discovered that the new, NCVEC developed, 392 test question & answer pool for the Technician Class license contains no graphics at all now. There is no need to understand schematic symbols or the lesser block diagrams. This is a new question pool development as of July 1st of this year.

Currently, the only written exam that has any electronic graphics whatsoever is the Extra Class exam. Forget the General Class -- graphics don't exist on this test either.

Here's another example of the systematic reduction in knowledge and comprehension of anything radio-electronics technical. The dumbing down continues.

It sure looks like quantity will win out over quality, and emcomm communications will be the new emphasis and reason-for-being at the ARRL.

Oh, brother...""

******************

As I stated here about four months ago;

When I took my test for Extra Class, there were 79 other testers at the test site. I was the ONLY person there that was currently licensed. I was a General Class and everyone else was there to test for their "no code" tech license.

At the table I was seated there was seven besides myself there to take the test. With the exception of one, none of them knew what an Extra Class license was. I'm not kidding. These people didn't even know the progression of license classes.

Then....

Whenever I told the folks at my table that I was an exclusive CW op, I had to explain to them what CW is. Disgusting. One of them actually blurted out to me, "Oh!!! That dot-dash stuff, right?"

Irregardless of the code vs. no-code B.S....

I have certainly witnessed...firsthand...the dumbing down of amateur radio.

We're only about ten years away from filing a form with a fee to the FCC and getting a ham license.

This is where the "know coders" are coming from and I feel their pain.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W6EM on July 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KC5CQD Said:
"You can piss and moan about how "George dubyah" is incompetent till your heart's content but it doesn't change the fact that the president of the United States isn't the cause of society's woes.

You, me and society in general are the cause of the problems we now face. Our president...whomever he(she) may be....spends his career walking a very fine tightrope. Trying at all times to keep everyone happy.

Ultimately.....no matter what decision the president makes, someone's pissed about it.

As I said originally; It's a THANKLESS job.

Look to yourself and the little microcosm in which you dwell to find happiness. Stop blaming the president. It's silly and quite childish."

You and several others apparently choose to turn what was meant to be a somewhat humorous comment into a personal attack.

Oh, well.

Did I say anything about 'societies woes'? Accuse Dubyah of blowing his mind that God, Barbara and George HW gave him with Coke? (No proof there) Nope. Only that I just can't understand how two very intelligent people, (that I still respect and am glad I voted for both times) could have issued such a lacking mindset.

To those who say my comment had *nothing* to do with emergency communications? Well, let's see if I can address that one.

First off, IF Dubyah had the brains to respond properly instead of flying off on two junkets to raise political cash AFTER the storm hit, he could have had more resources on their way to deploy. Including radio gear for interoperability. I watched and listened carefully to the teleconference video at Crawford where he was told of the gravity of the storm well before it hit. (Oops, that was probably Classified, but CNN found it somehow) All he had to do was listen to CNN on the day it hit. I'm sure Air Force One is capable of doing that on the way to Phoenix, even if his TV set in Crawford couldn't.

What other president in recent memory has repeatedly promoted an unlicensed technology (Access BPL) that has demonstrated its ability to render most HF communications useless, including distant HF stations needed to receive emergency communications from a devastated area?

And, to those who have looked up my bio, to find my last name, and goodness knows what else, I'm not a liberal by any definition. More of a Libertarian. But, that's not the point, other than to apparently attempt to focus commentary on me, the messenger.

In life I've found those that can't respond with a reasonable argument to the contrary often resort to attacking the person's position or character. While not appreciated, it does tend to demonstrate the absence of an accurate rebuttal, since if all one has to offer in response are frayed emotions, well, that speaks volumes. Frayed emotions, yes, are somewhat juvenile.

I had quite a few laughs from this thread, or, maybe it was one of the others, thanks to someone's comment about what 'Googling' "Miserable Failure" would yield. Try it and see who comes up first. The best definition, by example, of anything in recent memory.

Lee
W6EM






 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by AC3P on July 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Ever wonder why there has never been a President that was a ham?"

It might have happened in 1964 but too many people were scared K7UGA would push the button so they voted for Johnson and we got Vietnam.

Thanks to the "Daisy Commercial".

Still I remember QST running a picture of a tribander on the White House in anticipation of a Ham-In-Chief.

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W6EM on July 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
AC3P Says:

""Ever wonder why there has never been a President that was a ham?"

It might have happened in 1964 but too many people were scared K7UGA would push the button so they voted for Johnson and we got Vietnam."

Yes, it should have. Barry was a true Patriot and someone that should have been one of our Presidents. I still look to him as an example of the superior ethical and moral standards that our leaders should possess, unlike what we now have.

Having had his strength of character in office would have itself been an effective deterrent for our foes, thus, perhaps, lessening the need for expanded cold war weapons production and maybe even the Vietnam War itself.

K7UGA was a great ham and a great leader.

73,

Lee
W6EM

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1OU on July 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
And K7UGA would probably be tarred and feathered by today's Republicans.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KW5KW on July 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hrmmmph...

if you want to code some transmission simply use CW...
heck... 99% of the population can't read code, AND most of the newer 'no-code' Tech's can't either. AND it's legal on the ham bands.

Russ
kw5kw
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W6EM on July 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KW5KW, Russ Said:

"if you want to code some transmission simply use CW...
heck... 99% of the population can't read code, AND most of the newer 'no-code' Tech's can't either."

Ha. That's a good point. Maybe that's why the ARRL pushed hard for the No Code Tech License in the first place. So they could sell lots more Repeater Directories as the NCT's won't know what all the callsigns are from the CW id's.

Lee
W6EM
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W6EM on July 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
K1OU:

"And K7UGA would probably be tarred and feathered by today's Republicans."

I guess you must mean the Neo-Cons. Yep, General Goldwater would be too much of a liberal for them.

Lee
W6EM

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC8VWM on July 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Maybe that's why the ARRL pushed hard for the No Code Tech License in the first place. So they could sell lots more Repeater Directories as the NCT's won't know what all the callsigns are from the CW id's.

Lee
W6EM

------

Black helicopters obviously have something to do with this. ;)

73
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by AE6RF on July 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
> Ever wonder why there has never been a President that was a ham?

No, but there have been a king or two and plenty of princes...
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W9WHE-II on July 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
There is a long list of well known emergency frequencies. Every ham should memorize them:

2.182 Khz (maritime calling/emergency)

27.065 (CB ch 9. good buddy)

121.5 Mhz (aircraft)

146.52 Mhz (Ham calling/wilderness protocol)

154.265 Mhz (fire mutual aid many places)

155.340 (MERCI & medical aircraf)

155.475 (NLEEF)

156.8 (marine ch 16)

243 Mhz (Aircraft/mil)
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W9WHE-II on July 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Maybe that's why the ARRL pushed hard for the No Code Tech License in the first place. So they could sell lots more Repeater Directories as the NCT's won't know what all the callsigns are from the CW id's"

BING!
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W9WHE-II on July 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"And K7UGA would probably be tarred and feathered by today's Republicans"

Nope!
As a card-carrying member of the vast right-winged conspiracy (I just love that label) I can tell you that Barry Goldwater is still considered a hero by conservatives.

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by NL7W on July 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Don't forget the national public safety channels:

Radio Service Frequency Use or Authority
Any Public Safety, 155.7525 MHz, FCC Part 90.20(c)[80]
Law Enforcement, 158.7375 MHz, FCC Part 90.20(c)[80]
Fire, 154.4525 MHz, FCC Part 90.20(c)[80]
Forestry-Conservation, 159.4725 MHz, FCC Part 90.20(c)[80]
Highway Maintenance, 151.1375 MHz, FCC Part 90.20(c)[80]
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W6EM on July 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Jonathan, W9WHEE_II Said:
""And K7UGA would probably be tarred and feathered by today's Republicans""

"Nope!
As a card-carrying member of the vast right-winged conspiracy (I just love that label) I can tell you that Barry Goldwater is still considered a hero by conservatives."

Things are beginning to look up (morally and ethically) Jonathan, since I see in today's Washington Post that the Army is finally cancelling the no-bid multi-Billion Cheney Fest deal with Halliburton. So, it appears that you may be right. There possibly are yet some conservatives who, like Goldwater would have done, are going to do something to stop it. And, if we're lucky, go after the tooth-knasher that set it all up......

PS. I still dust off my Blue Book every once in a while.

Lee
W6EM



 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W6EM on July 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
NL7W Said:
"Don't forget the national public safety channels:

Radio Service Frequency Use or Authority

Any Public Safety, 155.7525 MHz, FCC Part 90.20(c)[80]
Law Enforcement, 158.7375 MHz, FCC Part 90.20(c)[80]
Fire, 154.4525 MHz, FCC Part 90.20(c)[80]
Forestry-Conservation, 159.4725 MHz, FCC Part 90.20(c)[80]
Highway Maintenance, 151.1375 MHz, FCC Part 90.20(c)[80]"

Gee, if only Motorola had given FEMA about 500 GP-88's all programmed with those frequencies for use by the Katrina responders instead of some fancy new trunked-junk 700MHz stuff that probably just uttered the usual Canadian Honker-like sounds.

Its scary to think that military helo crews actually had to drop notes in glass bottles to communicate with responders on the ground.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1OU on July 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
""And K7UGA would probably be tarred and feathered by today's Republicans"

Nope!
As a card-carrying member of the vast right-winged conspiracy (I just love that label) I can tell you that Barry Goldwater is still considered a hero by conservatives."

And he still lost in 1964.



 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC8VWM on July 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

These U.S. national frequencies don't help much during disasters when the first responder honking sounds go something like this Eh?


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0908-02.htm


 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W9WHE-II on July 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Goldwater lost in 1964, but remained an Icon. On the other hand Al (Alpha male - earth tone) Gore lost in 2000 and now he is a joke!
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1OU on July 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Uh, Alpha male means dominant, and Goldwater STILL lost.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1OU on July 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
And you can look it up!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_male

And doesn't Dubya resemble a chimp?
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1OU on July 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
And Barry Goldwater had the courage to stand up to the Christian Right (which is neither), who have hijacked the Republican party. Last time I checked, it still said "One Nation Under God", not "One Nation Under Jesus Christ".
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W6EM on July 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Well, first, its neo-con politics, then shirt-sleeve religion. What's next, sex?

Meaning, of course, for the WH incumbent.

One of the tabloids recently had something about Laura being 'fed up.' Could be that Jennifer Flowers and Monica Lewinsky still have the phone number (or the keys) to the Oval Office.

Lee
W6EM
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1OU on July 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Lee,

I enjoy your postings, as they are tempered in reality.

And I have a cigar here!
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W9WHE-II on July 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
W6EM writes:


"Yes, it should have. Barry [Goldwater] was a true Patriot and someone that should have been one of our Presidents. I still look to him as an example of the superior ethical and moral standards that our leaders should possess, unlike what we now have. Having had his strength of character in office would have itself been an effective deterrent for our foes, thus, perhaps, lessening the need for expanded cold war weapons production and maybe even the Vietnam War itself"

Instead, we have nutballs suggesting that we need to fight a "more sensitive" war on terror and that we need to give terrorists a "bill of rights", including taxpayer funded lawyers.

Sheesh!
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1OU on July 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Only because the conservative court said so.....

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/07/11/congress.guantanamo.ap/index.html
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W6EM on July 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
W9WHEE-II, Jonathan said:
"Instead, we have nutballs suggesting that we need to fight a "more sensitive" war on terror and that we need to give terrorists a "bill of rights", including taxpayer funded lawyers.

Sheesh!"

I wonder how those 9 fellow Bar members would take such a characterization from an Officer of the Court and Bar patron? Or, maybe you aren't credentialled to practice before them. Sorry, if I made an incorrect assumption.

In any case, Jonathan, you might just have shot your chance to ever become a "taxpayer-funded lawyer."

73,

Lee
W6EM

PS to K1OU: Thanks and I enjoy your postings as well. Always well seated in fact and logic. Be careful if you post over at Q R Zed dot com as the moderators dislike anti-neocon, anti-authoritarian material.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W9DPY on July 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Wow! If many hams feel the way that KI4FH does; on cellular being the most likely post disaster communication mode, I'm afraid we are all in real trouble! I have worked in cellular for 13 years covering AMPS, CDMA, TDMA, GSM and now UMTS. The cellular system is fragile and does not stand up well under stress.

It was mentioned that during Charlie, a COW (Cell On Wheels) was brought in. I worked with many folks on getting basic cellular service to areas hit by Katrina. Complete switches were washed away and full service wasn't restored for over a month in some areas. A COW will handle the minimum amount of service needed, but amateur radio was the predomant communications medium for at least the first 72 hours. Don't stake your life on the cellular system in a real disaster. Even in less than life threatening disasters (the East Coast Black Out a few years ago comes to mind); the cellular system was operational but quickly overloaded.

As to K4III and his original premiss about privacy, in the original post I got a laugh out of one paragraph. Quote: "If they (cellular providers) can get the Government to block their frequencies from being monitored/scanned then they can charge the government back for the protected rights for private communications required by Government law"! No offense, but I have never seen the government pay cellular providers for use of the airwaves.

The governmet charges users. Look at the upcoming Spectrum Auction 66. Originally expected to bring in $15 billion (yes billion) dollars; the government expects it to generate "only" 8 billion. I wouldn't be so dissapointed if some of that went back to addressing emergency communication issues such as upgrading equipment and systems that didn't work during 9/11, etc...But it doesn't. The moral here: Privacy isn't in the hands of cellular companies. It's in the hands of the government; which we are all part of. If we want something done about this it's up to us to fix the problem.

Dave - W9DPY
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W9WHE-II on July 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
W6EM threatens:

"I wonder how those 9 fellow Bar members would take such a characterization from an Officer of the Court and Bar patron?"

Lee, why you think you can intimidate me?
Your veiled threats are as hollow as your reasoning. NEWSFLASH: THE 1ST AMENDMENT APPLIES TO EVERYONE, NOT JUST LIBERALS. You cannot suppress my rights to free speech. I cannot be intimidated or bullied. Why is it whenever liberals loose a debate they resort to personal attacks and threats?



W6EM also proclaims:

"In any case, Jonathan, you might just have shot your chance to ever become a "taxpayer-funded lawyer."

Oh, I see. Express an opinion that liberals don't like and liberals bar you from government jobs? Wow. NEWSFLASH: Political corectness and censorship went out with the democrat majority. Both are history. Haven't you seen the election results?


As for my expression of personal opinions on a political issue, the U.S. constitution guarntees me the right to do so, no matter how much liberals disagree. Liberals can no longer squelch ideas they do not like. Not with political correctness and not with threats. Welcome to the new reality.

W9WHE
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1OU on July 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
W9WHE says:

"As for my expression of personal opinions on a political issue, the U.S. constitution guarntees me the right to do so, no matter how much liberals disagree. Liberals can no longer squelch ideas they do not like. Not with political correctness and not with threats. Welcome to the new reality."

"Guarntees"? Wow, I wonder if he has every season of Hee Haw on DVD!!!!

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1OU on July 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Riddle: When are wonderings and hypotheses construed as threats?

Answer? When somebody is feeling insecure and has a big bag of nothing!
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1OU on July 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Courtesy of dictionary.com

threat---n 1: something that is a source of danger; "earthquakes are a constant threat in Japan" [syn: menace] 2: a warning that something unpleasant is imminent; "they were under threat of arrest" 3: declaration of an intention or a determination to inflict harm on another; "his threat to kill me was quite explicit" 4: a person who inspires fear or dread; "he was the terror of the neighborhood" [syn: terror, scourge]


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/threat

threaten---

v 1: pose a threat to; present a danger to; "The pollution is endangering the crops" [syn: endanger, jeopardize, jeopardise, menace, imperil, peril] 2: to utter intentions of injury or punishment against:"He threatened me when I tried to call the police" 3: to be a menacing indication of something:"The clouds threaten rain"; "Danger threatens"


Ouch, my shoulder! Oh, that's just the sky falling!
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W6EM on July 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
W9WHEEEE-II, Jonathan Said:
"Lee, why you think you can intimidate me?
Your veiled threats are as hollow as your reasoning. NEWSFLASH: THE 1ST AMENDMENT APPLIES TO EVERYONE, NOT JUST LIBERALS. You cannot suppress my rights to free speech. I cannot be intimidated or bullied. Why is it whenever liberals loose a debate they resort to personal attacks and threats?"

Jonathan, I didn't threaten you or personally attack you. It was just a punnish response to your inferring that the Supreme Court is/was a bunch of nutballs. Who could overlook such an opportunity, especially in view of the current lack of political balance to the Court?

You can say what you wish. I'm not your sensor, intimidator, or bully. I'm not a liberal, as I've told you many times before. You just can't accept the fact that an old fiscal conservative here differs with your opinions about a couple of money-squandering, embezzeling politicians. And, I didn't realize that I was even involved in a debate with you. At least now.

73,

Lee
W6EM




 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1OU on July 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hey Lee,

Thanks for your kind words.

I'm quite sure you are aware that there are conservatives who are about fiscal responsibilty and limited government and then there are the true believers who listen to talk radio for directions on what to say and how to think.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K4JF on July 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"K1OU:

"And K7UGA would probably be tarred and feathered by today's Republicans."

I guess you must mean the Neo-Cons. Yep, General Goldwater would be too much of a liberal for them.

Lee
W6EM "

Hardly. Barry was FAR to the right of today's tax-and-spend Republicans.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by NL7W on July 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Yep, Barry would be deeply saddened by the current Republican tax and spend leadership. Bring back the Regan Republicans please!
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1OU on July 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
K4JF says:

"Hardly. Barry was FAR to the right of today's tax-and-spend Republicans."

Tax and spend? Try spend and spend some more.
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC8VWM on July 15, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Welcome to the political debate and discussion thread.

VWM

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC0PET on July 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I shall digress (from the political issue back to the original theme). Some points.

The big talk is "interoperability". Agencies need to talk to each other (and most don't know how). I think hams have a significant advantage here and can be a great help.

Very few public safety radio systems have encryption or any kind of security. Most of them are old and obselete.

I understand the patient confidentiality issue. However, if ham radio is the only thing that works, something is better than nothing. We have worked with a local hospital and they have been receptive to using VHF packet for patient info. when all else fails.

de KC0PET

 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC0PET on July 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Now, on the so called political issue. I recommend that this type of stuff be kept off of these types of forums. It has a tendency to ruin an otherwise good thing. Please exchange personal e-mails and have these discussions somewhere else.

de KC0PET
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W9WHE-II on July 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Political discussion is as much a part of ham radio as it is every other facet of life. If we need to filter anything, its not political speech, but rather the vile, nasty, personal attacks.

W9WHE
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by KC4MEC on July 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Since the beginning of my career in emergency medical services (EMS), I've been told not to discuss private information or even make a "diagnosis" over the air. When talking about a single patient, I've only ever given age, gender, chief complaint, signs & symptoms, treatment the patient has tried, treatment I've rendered, and any other pertinent information. When transmitting information about a group of patients, I usually only refer to the number of "green", "yellow" or "red" that I need to send to a hospital. I've been a paramedic and a ham for about 18 years and that has always worked. I am also a search and rescue (SAR) instructor. During a search, we routinely broadcast the subject's full name, gender, age, and the point last seen. To my knowledge not one provider in our city of almost 500,000 people has ever been sued or even reprimanded for transmitting personal information over the air.

Hams in my city are included in some, not all, disaster drills, and have a station in our mobile command center. There are also ham antenna connections at our local hospital ERs. When I restarted the SAR team, I bought and installed a ham radio in our SAR van. I've never had any takers during a real SAR mission, but I keep hoping. In addition, one rescue squad has a ham station and another has a VHF antenna available for ham use.

We have a great Motorola 800MHz trunked radio system. If you scan it, you hear constant chatter from school buses and public works / utilities people. The garbage trucks also fully utilize their bandwidth. As for EMS, my primary concern, it is just like the older VHF system except with much more expensive radios. So our volunteers, who make up over 90% of our EMS providers, are not able to purchase their own gear. Though a few have plunked down $900-$2000 for a used 800MHz portable. The couple of times our system went down, cellular phones and alpha numeric pagers came in handy until finally everyone got back on the old VHF frequency. Each time it happens we discover more rescue units that don't have VHF radios or have radios that don't work anymore. I'd like to see us use VHF every Tuesday. Also, we should do triage tags on every patient we see on Tuesdays. That would keep our radio skills and MCI skills up to date. It would be cool if we could switch to ham radio one day a month, a quarter or even a year if that's all we could do. If nothing else, it would be a learning experience.

I think ham radio still has a role to fill. I'm not sure it even has to be confined to shelters or logistics. I'm now a special ops captain and I have asked for 5 HF rigs and 5 antennas. I'm certain these will be funded and installed this year. Hopefully I can recruit some other hams to join the rescue squad as admin members to help me test and drill with these radios.

The funny hats, antennas on the car, badges, or even lights on the car don't bother me. It's always an individual's attitude that makes or breaks the relationship.

Great discussion, but you almost lost me when you starting talk about Barry Goldwater.

Take care,

John, KC4MEC
 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by W6EM on July 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KC4MEC, John:

Excellent post. Sorry that one of Barry's Boys, as we used to be called, got carried away with ethical politicians. Hi Hi.

As to your situation with radio systems, trunkers were sold based on the idea that they'd operate more efficiently. As in, use more channels, more of the time. In other words, "if the concept works for telephones, why not radio?"

The problem is, its a gamble. Why? Because there is no immediacy to trunkers. Store and forward, as noted by the delay between what is sent and what is received. So, in a real emergency life-death scenario where a radio is needed to save someone's immediate demise, trunkers aren't there. Now, grant you, the manufacturers are trying to comply with an emergency protocol that is supposed to guarantee capture within a half second of a trunked channel, still not a guarantee. New Orleans system, for example, was supposed to revert to conventional repeater operation. Did it, when its central controller failed? No. Supposedly, all trunkers are supposed to revert to conventional repeater operation on failure of the controller, but it didn't. Who knows how much additional suffering or property damage, or even loss of life occurred because of only simplex 800MHz operation in Katrina's aftermath on three channels.

Great that you keep a secondary VHF radio system, and plan on drills to make sure it and the people who may need it can still use it.

What the fCC needs to do is recognize the need to interoperate between military, coast guard, and public safety. And, in so doing, get off its "700MHz will solve the interoperability problem" kick. It won't, since, no hams near there. No military near there. No Coast Guard near there. Oh yes, the other problem, digital mode, APCO-25. Again, not something anyone but public safety wants. They want cheap clandestinizing of communications to keep the public from hearing them. Sadly, all they've done is dig a deeper interoperability problem hole.

73,

Lee
W6EM







 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K1OU on July 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib Reply
by W9WHE-II on July 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Political discussion is as much a part of ham radio as it is every other facet of life. If we need to filter anything, its not political speech, but rather the vile, nasty, personal attacks.

W9WHE

Exactly, and here's what Jonathan is talking about...

"W9WHE





Group: Ham Members
Posts: 423
Joined: June 2001 Posted: Nov. 30 2004,14:23

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The concept of suing K1MAN is totally laughable. What are you legal scholars thinking? You can’t sue someone for being annoying. Class action??? It’s just daft".


I agree.
Liberals think they can sue everyone, everywhere for everything they don't like. Give it a rest allready! Soon liberals will be filing class-action suits against conservatives for inducing PESD (post-election stress disorder). Come on allready! If you have a legitimate beef with the guy's on-the-air conduct, just file your factually based complaints with the FCC.

W9WHE

http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=fc775278e27b16f5c1d11d6fa9183fe6;act=ST;f=3;t=76790;st=30

Here's another example:

"RE: Revisiting the same old argument
by W9WHE-II on August 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
""....the code/no-code debate is REALLY about the "entitlement" mentality in today's society...."

BINGO!
Thanks to liberals, some people believe that because they want something, it automatically becomes a "right". Since we live in an "entitlement siociety", its somehow the government's responsibillity to give you WHATEVER you call a "right". After all, you have no responsibillity to provide for yourself. You should not be required to work for what you want, the government should just give it to you.

Ever notice that when liberals don't get what they want, they whine until they get it? Hummm....this gives me an idea:

1) I want my own frequency;
2) Since I want it, it MUST be a "right";
3) Since its a "right", the govenment must give it to me.

What? no private frequency for ME?, then I will fall back on liberal tactic No. 2:

WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY


Since I want my own frequency, it must be a right and the government must give it to me. I have no responsibillity to provide for myself. Since the government will not give me my own frequency, I will keep whining until I get it:

WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY


After all, non-stop WHINING seems to be getting HF priveleges for those that REFUSE to learn code, so why shouldn't non-stop whining get me my own frequency?

WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY
WHAAAAA....I WANT MY OWN FREQUENCY

http://www.eham.net/articles/11672

And another:

"RE: Brass Pounding or Table Pounding?
by W9WHE on September 19, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
All social security taxes go into general revenue.There is no seperate "social security fund". That is a Fat lie propigated by Democrats!"

http://www.eham.net/articles/6388

"Mr. Civillity, try reading up. You already asked me that question and already got your answer. But just to aid you older gentlemen that seem to be having difficulties, I'm allways happy to repeat myself or slow down. So, just for you, since you seem to be having problems, I will copy and paste it for you:"

http://www.eham.net/articles/10573

"RE: UCF Hams in a Tizzy
by W9WHE on September 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Universities are bastions of IN-tollerance. If you disagree with ignorant liberal thinking, you are OUT!

What we really need is EDUCATIONAL DIVERSITY wherein people with thinking other than liberal are allowed in!

An educational divversity programs will be popping up everywhere soon. Please take time to support them."

http://www.eham.net/articles/6446


Jonathan is alays very beneficial in helping me prove his points!







 
RE: Ham Radio Emergency Communications Even Possib  
by K6LCS on July 22, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The original post's premise is fatally flawed:

"But how come ham organizations and ham assistance is becoming less needed or requested? Or the role being diminished?"

This is not the case. Amateur radio is involved in more and more regions' disaster plans. The more intelligent a public service department's heads are, the more amateur radio ops are involved in their disaster plans.

Clint Bradford, K6LCS
 
Email Subscription
You are not subscribed to discussions on this article.

Subscribe!
My Subscriptions
Subscriptions Help

Other Recent Articles
Ham Radio Aficionados Reminisce During Hamfest, Discuss Importance:
HR2: Buddipole PowerPlus Demonstration:
'Hams' to Help Emergency Operations During Storm Area 51 Event:
Amateur Radio Open Operating Night:
WIA: Remembrance Day Contest 2019 Results: