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Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:

Robert Olschwang (K7JQ) on May 8, 2012
View comments about this article!

April 2, 2012, the FCC has issued Public Notice DA-523, Docket #12-91: "FCC Seeks Comment on Emergency Communications by Amateur Radio and Impediments to Amateur Radio Communications".

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/index.do?document=313370

This could be a major step to get the FCC to ban private land use restrictions (CC&R/HOA) on Amateur Radio antennas. We all know that PRB-1 is only effective against government and municipal land restrictions, but the FCC has always steered clear of dealing with private land use contracts (CC&R's) between builders and buyers in master-planned communities and other subdivisions, so prevelent around the Country. This seems to be the first time the FCC is considering addressing these Amateur Radio antenna restrictions, much like they have dealt with satellite dishes and antennas for television reception.

I urge all hams to visit the above website, read the Public Notice, and send your comments and opinions to the FCC. Make sure you address BOTH questions: 1. Emergency Communications, and 2. Impediments to Amateur Radio Communications (namely, antenna restrictions).

If we all ban together and provide thousands of comments, then perhaps they will FINALLY declare, at least, "reasonable accomodation" of our antennas in CC&R/HOA controlled communities.

73,

Bob, K7JQ

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by W9PMZ on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Can someone tell me how having a 35 ft tower in the backyard after a tornado has plowed through is going to facilitate emergency communications? Or for that matter a hurricane?

Hand helds and cell phones are the back bone now. Carriers even have portable cell sites that can be deployed at a moments notice.

This is not to say that hams can't help.

I think that the emcom argument is slim and pretentious from a ham radio perspective. We now have the TSA, the FBI, the CIA, the Homeland Crowd, FEMA, state police, county police, township police, city police, fire departments, ad nauseum! What are we really to do?

The real argument is the basic point that does a HOA over rule Federal interest? I really do not think that there will be a favorable outcome, but there is always hope!

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N4UM on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Just a reminder. You may also sign an online petition to the FCC to void antenna restrictions on the part of developers and HOA's and require them to make "reasonable accomodations" for amateur antennas. As of May 8 at 0800 EDST, 2399 petition signatures have been collected. Signatures will be collected up until May 17, the day the FCC has decided to cut off the receipt of formal comments. Please sign the petition at the link listed below if you have not already done so.

http://www.change.org/petitions/federal-communications-commission-void-antenna-restrictions-by-homeowner-s-associations-and-developers
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AA4PB on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Handhelds and cell phones are worthless if the repeater or cell backbone is knocked out. That guy with the tower just may be able to link up on simplex with portable stations in the shelters and provide needed communications.

I don't have an HOA or restrictions but I still signed the petition because I think that others should have reasonable accomodation for their antennas. I could also be in that situation someday myself when we "downsize".

Having worked with my county on some non-amateur related projects, it is plain to me that the counties are now using the "covenents" as a means to put restrictions in place without having to write and defend laws themselves. They just tell the developers to put this stuff in covenents and make it very uncomfortable for any developer that refuses.
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N4OI on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Beyond point-to-point, local communications using VHF/UHF HTs for LOS connections, is there a valid place for long-distance, HF traffic in an emergency?

Could there ever be a situation where international or coast-to-coast ham radio traffic nets are needed to pass meaningful health and welfare messages?

If so, big antennas on towers would certainly comprise a vital link in the system...

73 ES GOD BLESS U ES URS DE KEN N4OI
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by KX0O on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Could someone post a link to where you go to comment or to sign the petition? I have seen this posted before but it isn't perfectly obvious how to make a comment.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N4UM on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Submit your fillings for proceeding 12-91 at...

http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/upload/display?z=dqofb


Sign the petition at...

http://www.change.org/petitions/federal-communications-commission-void-antenna-restrictions-by-homeowner-s-associations-and-developers

 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by KJ6ETL on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Even if the main antenna in the effected area is knocked out. The operator can still set up an emergency antenna. Having hams with good antenna's outside the disaster zone will help establishing contact with the handicapped stations.

Further its not only natural disasters we need to be prepared for. We need to be prepared for the day that the internet and phone lines have become unavailable due to a cyber attack....


I signed the petition. But I also urge hams to keep their antenna (farm) nice and tidy. To often stations look like junk yard :-(

Sign it!

http://www.change.org/petitions/federal-communications-commission-void-antenna-restrictions-by-homeowner-s-associations-and-developers#
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by KF5PGT on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
After hurricane Katrina, there were many hams that could relay info into and out of the affected area from the outside world. The hams from outside the greater New Orleans area listened into surviving repeaters (there were afew) and relayed info using their towers to people who needed the info to help. If HOA's continue to spread and more and more hams have to resort to neutered, stealth antennas these communications won't be there next time. Now, south Louisiana and Mississippi has way more rural area than HOA ruled land, but the next natural or man made disaster might happen somewhere that the opposite is true.
 
Prevention is better than cure.  
by AI2IA on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
If you are a dedicated and determined amateur radio operator and believe that you must have outdoor ham antennas at your house or condo, then the HOAs don't want you among them.

Why then would you want to go there?

You have the freedom to decide where you want to live.
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by K8AXW on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I hate to come across as a "Grinch" but petitioning the FCC is just another example of asking the federal government to control our private lives.

Government is dictating more and more of our lives seemingly each year. We as Americans covet and want to protect our freedoms but at the same time some want the federal government controlling us.

The answer to this whole thing continues to be our freedom of choice. If you can't deal with HOA/CC&R, don't buy a house or condo there! Simple.

Signing the HOA contract is no different than signing a contract when borrowing money from a bank. You understand the requirements going in and you sign the document when you agree to the requirements.

Whining and crying afterwards ... or worse yet, cry to the government to "do something about this" is wrong.

 
RE: Prevention is better than cure.  
by AA4PB on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"You have the freedom to decide where you want to live"

Really? I want to live in that big house on a 6 acre lot that costs a million dollars. My income won't support the mortgage. Do I really have the freedom to live there?

The point is that there are lots of things that limit where a person can afford to live - like schools, commute distance, cost, distance from family who may require your assistance, etc.
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by K9CTB on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
This is one of the best hot-button issues that gets plenty of mileage whenever it's mentioned. This total crap is not going away until we the people get hold of these ridiculous socialists and force the idea home that we know how to keep our "property values" stable, and we know what's best for ourselves. Somehow, this whole "individuality is bad for my property values" crap got propagated, and nobody stepped in to stop it. Put simply, we know what's best for ourselves. Keep your own yard clean and don't worry about mine - Unless you want to pay my mortgage.

We've GOT to get control of these socialists before they become our ruin. It goes WAY beyond whether a simple dipole is in my back yard has any effect on you at all - and it needs to be fixed, and FAST!

The warning signs are everywhere. Open your eyes!

73,
K9CTB
 
RE: Prevention is better than cure.  
by K7JQ on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
As eham.net is one of the most popular ham radio websites, visited by thousands of hams on a regular basis, I (as the originator of this article) merely intended to make the FCC Public Notice more visible to the ham radio community by posting it on yet another venue. It was not intended to stir up comments, pros or cons, of antenna restricted communities, and why hams are crazy and stupid to move into one. This has been discussed ad nauseum on countless other websites, threads, blogs, articles, etc, designed to stimlate controversy.

For those of you that were not already aware of the Public Notice, hopefully this article has done some good by letting you know of it's existence. Read it, and if you so desire, take action on it. If not, that's OK too. That's what freedom of choice is all about. Also visit N4UM's website posted in an earlier comment and look at his petition.

I don't know what all this will lead to, but at least it is a new step in the right direction to allow at least "reasonable accomodation" for ham antennas in HOA/CC&R communities.

73, Bob, K7JQ
 
RE: Prevention is better than cure.  
by AD6KA on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
KF6PGT:
>"After hurricane Katrina, there were many hams that could relay info into and out of the affected area from the outside world. The hams from outside the greater New Orleans area listened into surviving repeaters (there were afew) and relayed info using their towers to people who needed the info to help.

And WHO exactly WERE helped by "Ham Radio?" during and after Katrina? Tell me, I really want to know.
They certainly were NOT directed to the Superdome,
where even ordinary pickup trucks filled with bottled water would have saved lives.
Ham Radio's "Health and Welfare" traffic?
What a joke!
"Billy Bob got out OK but his porch was flooded?"
Those kind of messages HELP?

Ham Radio didn't help the THOUSANDS of people(where WHITE faces were rare in the tens of thousands of people HEARDED there). People who were TOLD BY "The AUTHORITIES" they would find shelter, food, and water at the Superdome,where there was no water, food or even sanitary facilities for a week.

Certinly not the hundreds, if not **thousands**,of
DEAD AMERICANS, their bodies bloating grotesquely like cattle in the sun after some "Third World" catastrophe. This is a site I thought we would never see in America. I wept.

This came only days after the President publicly congratulated FEMA Director Brown (whose prior job was as the head of the International Arabian Horse Association!) what a great job he & FEMA were doing.

NO, I don't think Ham Radio could have helped this
meltdown of FEMA, if anything could of it would have been good leadership at the top (President).

AS in: Declare Marshal Law and bring in the national Guard.
OH! But Wait!
%60 of Nationl Guard Units had been deployed to
Irag and Afghanistan, wars we really have no dog in.
Isn't the job of the "National Guard"
supposed to guard us at HOME???????
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by K8QV on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
People in America seem downright anxious to give up freedoms, otherwise we wouldn't have widespread homeland "security" abuses, endless sprawling camps of restricted residential properties, and a host of other incursions on freedom. Now we're anxious to have government, of all things, step in on behalf of us who lack the balls to live free or just say "no" to our keepers. I guess the next president will meet little resistance when he finishes the job of bringing "1984" to reality.
 
RE: Prevention is better than cure.  
by KX0O on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
What was so hard to understand?

Remember this report?

WWUS74 KLIX 282139
NPWLIX

URGENT - WEATHER MESSAGE
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NEW ORLEANS LA
413 PM CDT SUN AUG 28 2005

...EXTREMELY DANGEROUS HURRICANE KATRINA CONTINUES TO APPROACH THE
MISSISSIPPI RIVER DELTA...
...DEVASTATING DAMAGE EXPECTED...

MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS...PERHAPS LONGER. AT
LEAST ONE HALF OF WELL CONSTRUCTED HOMES WILL HAVE ROOF AND WALL
FAILURE. ALL GABLED ROOFS WILL FAIL...LEAVING THOSE HOMES SEVERELY
DAMAGED OR DESTROYED.

THE MAJORITY OF INDUSTRIAL BUILDINGS WILL BECOME NON FUNCTIONAL.
PARTIAL TO COMPLETE WALL AND ROOF FAILURE IS EXPECTED. ALL WOOD
FRAMED LOW RISING APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL BE DESTROYED. CONCRETE
BLOCK LOW RISE APARTMENTS WILL SUSTAIN MAJOR DAMAGE...INCLUDING SOME
WALL AND ROOF FAILURE.

HIGH RISE OFFICE AND APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL SWAY DANGEROUSLY...A
FEW TO THE POINT OF TOTAL COLLAPSE. ALL WINDOWS WILL BLOW OUT.

AIRBORNE DEBRIS WILL BE WIDESPREAD...AND MAY INCLUDE HEAVY ITEMS SUCH
AS HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCES AND EVEN LIGHT VEHICLES. SPORT UTILITY
VEHICLES AND LIGHT TRUCKS WILL BE MOVED. THE BLOWN DEBRIS WILL CREATE
ADDITIONAL DESTRUCTION. PERSONS...PETS...AND LIVESTOCK EXPOSED TO THE
WINDS WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH IF STRUCK.

POWER OUTAGES WILL LAST FOR WEEKS...AS MOST POWER POLES WILL BE DOWN
AND TRANSFORMERS DESTROYED. WATER SHORTAGES WILL MAKE HUMAN SUFFERING
INCREDIBLE BY MODERN STANDARDS.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF NATIVE TREES WILL BE SNAPPED OR UPROOTED. ONLY
THE HEARTIEST WILL REMAIN STANDING...BUT BE TOTALLY DEFOLIATED. FEW
CROPS WILL REMAIN. LIVESTOCK LEFT EXPOSED TO THE WINDS WILL BE
KILLED.

AN INLAND HURRICANE WIND WATCH IS ISSUED WHEN SUSTAINED WINDS NEAR
HURRICANE FORCE...OR FREQUENT GUSTS AT OR ABOVE HURRICANE FORCE...ARE
POSSIBLE WITHIN THE NEXT 24 TO 36 HOURS.

 
RE: Prevention is better than cure.  
by K9MHZ on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Oh good, here we go again....worn-out politics from a lefty on the west coast. There's credibility. Maybe he missed his encounter group meeting this week.

Let's back up. EMCOMM is our bread 'n butter. Personally, I can't stand it, but THAT is what's going to keep us allocated with bands. Nobody in the non-ham world cares how well you can bang out CW, how pleasing your AM audio is, or how many SSB contacts you can muster. Many DO care deeply how much bandwidth they can snatch from our clutches for this new wireless doo-dad device or for that BS "emerging technology". And AD6KA...care to guess who would be more than willing to allow it all to happen if the price is right? Your buddy in the White House....eg, Lightsquared would have been an absolute disaster for GPS navigation.

We have very little political clout aside from large numbers and EMCOMM......get over it. Nothing appeals more on the human-interest level than that noble Dudley Doright with a handheld on his belt, at least perceived to be providing EMCOMM for his community. That's about all we have politically, folks.

 
RE: Prevention is better than cure.  
by K9MHZ on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
And AD6KA....remember that Katrina didn't flatten New Orleans. It wiped out the Gulf Coast in eastern Louisiana, Mississippi, and some in Alabama. What destroyed New Orleans was a levee breach and flood. I can distinctly remember seeing people beginning the French Quarter party once again, right after storm passage. Only a short time later did the levee fall and then flood ensued.

AD6KA, if you want to get political here, then ask yourself why we have thrown scads of money at a literal s$!t hole that's below sea level, that's also become a cesspool of every social. But oh, when that eventual Cat 5 bears down on it, and NO plan on the local or state level was ever devised or used for evacuation, it's all Bush's fault.

I think all of that looney California living is frying your DNA. Best move I ever made was getting out of there 20 years ago.
 
Sorry, I forgot!  
by AI2IA on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
When I posted this:
"You have the freedom to decide where you want to live."

I forgot to condition it with the words WITHIN REASON.

So it should have read: You have the freedom within reason to decide where you want to live.

I hope this helps the looney bird who writes that he wants to live in a big fancy house that he cannot afford.

Real men don't adopt the "victim mentality."
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by WA0ZZG on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
OK;
Let's talk about what happens in a disaster. Doesn't matter what kind, they all leave the same problems around.
1. Phones won't work. This has nothing to do about towers, wireless, or even power. Phone systems are dsigned to only have a small percentage of units in operation at any one time. Everyone gets on the phone in an emergency. Radio & TV will be pleading with people to stay off the phones and they won't listen.
2. Power will be off from three days to three weeks depending where you are. Battery systems will last for three hours.
3. Nobody will know what is going on.
4. Local law enforcement will seal off the town including Hams trying to get in and help.
5. Outside emergency agencies will come in to help but their radio won't talk to the locals and their cell phones won't work(see #1). They may grab a ham with a mobile radio because our stuff is still talking.
6. Nobody still knows what is going on because every agency wants to be the one in charge.
7. Nobody gets enough sleep. A shower and clothes change is your most prized posession.

Having fun yet?
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by G3SEA on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!

Worth a try !

Everything helps in a disaster be it cell phones ( IF the system is viable ),Military,State,County Comms,Sat phones and good old Ham Radio in whatever capacity it can serve.

However after the event it's the human side. Folks helping each other( along with the Red Cross,Salvation Army etc ) to get back on their feet with shelter,water,food,sanitation and heaps of compassion and togetherness in a dire situation.

KH6/G3SEA
 
RE: Prevention is better than cure.  
by N4UM on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I direct these comments to my right leaning, well meaning, sanctity of contract worshiping friends who feel HOAs should be permitted to perpetuate their prohibition of amateur antennas because of the nearly sacred nature of contracts.

A disabled and decorated war veteran in Florida wanted to erect a flagpole on his property to fly the flag he had given so much of his life for. He lived in a community where CC&Rs specifically forbade the erection of flagpoles. The veteran sought permission to erect a pole to fly the flag and was denied by the powers-that-be in the community. (Such stupidity surely should be a crime!)

The notoriously socialistic and left-leaning Republican-dominated state legislature of Florida then got into the act and passed a law enabling any Florida homeowner to erect up to a 20 foot flagpole anywhere on his or her property (provided it was not on an easement) without requiring anyone's permission to do so. Moreover the law provided penalties for anyone who interferred with a citizen's right to erect a flagpole in compliance with the statute.

Clearly the socialistic, left-leaning, Republican dominated Florida legislature violated the contract rights of hundreds of thousands of Florida residents. Surprisingly, few Florida residents objected to this blatant government intervention.
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by K2FOX on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for the link. I am happy to sign it if it will help some HAM somewhere to erect an antenna.



 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N2GBT on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I always believed as you do- until years ago- think it was 2004- i was Director of Nursing for a facility that got hit hard by the hurricanes- 24 people in whelchairs - most on vents- our disaster plan- where we were to move to- was destroyed. we lost our electric and phones- and cell phone calls to the county- was a waste of time due to the overwelming call volume they were getting. IF we had a ham operator at both the county facility- and our facility- communications would have been a bit more efficient then trying via cellphone. Its tough finding bodies to do this- and if those available live in an area where antennas are restricted or banned- it makes it even more difficult. You can argue this both ways- but better to have- and not need- then to need- and not have.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by K0HEA on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I hate to bust your TP/GOP tail, but this is one time that the Federal Govt will be GIVING you some freedoms... and not letting a bunch of petty idiots (HOA BOARD MEMBERS) decide what you can and cannot do...

I know how petty they can be, I was a board president for 5 years...
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N7SGM on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
W9PMZ - Carl,

I think you missed the point here. No one is suggesting that HOA/CC&R residents rush right out and erect a huge tower if the FCC allows antennas. What it does suggest is a change in current rules to allow the amateur an antenna.

What is interesting is that many of these developments allow TV dish type antennas on the roof but nothing else. I say what is good for the goose is good for the gander. No dipoles, no TV dish antennas, period. If you want to be an HOA/CC&R antenna NAZI then do your job to the fullest and get rid of all antennas once and for all. If not then shut up and live and let live!!

Haven't we lost enough of our basic freedoms already??
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by WS4E on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Frankly I would have be happy with the same rights that people have to put up their TV Antennas according to PRB-1.

 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by KA5KMS on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I don't think the FCC currently has or will ever be granted any authority to regulate private HOA/CC&R with regard to antenna restrictions. People who purchase private property with antenna restrictions are forever legally bound to the HOA to abide by their agreed to HOA/CC&R rules. A lot depends on how these rules are written into the property description/deed. As usual, the only winners in the end will be the lawyers. If you find yourself in this fight....lawyer up!
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by KJ4NOO on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I prefer to live in the country without restriction but I signed the petition hoping to help another ham have less problems with his antennas.
 
RE: Prevention is better than cure.  
by KF5PGT on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
AD6KA> And WHO exactly WERE helped by "Ham Radio?" during and after Katrina? Tell me, I really want to know.


<a href ="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9228945/ns/technology_and_science-wireless/t/ham-radio-operators-rescue-after-katrina/#.T6nOwxB5mSM">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9228945/ns/technology_and_science-wireless/t/ham-radio-operators-rescue-after-katrina/#.T6nOwxB5mSM</a>


Google is your friend.
 
RE: Prevention is better than cure.  
by KC7MF on May 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Let's see. So far in this thread we have called each other socialists, nazis and all manner of evil. It is idiotic to do that. Many of you are demonstrating what is wrong with politics these days. Name calling children running the show. Nazis? Give me a break.

This is reasonable accommodation, not 80 foot towers. We all are licensed hams. We ought to know how to practice our hobby without annoying our neighbors. For all of you who are whining about socialists and nazis let me remind you that there is some subtle difference between a nice butternut in the back yard and a StepIr at 35 feet.

So I am for reasonable accommodation which should not piss off any of the name calling children. Now play nice or you have to go to bed without your suppers.

We are hams. We are friends. We care for one another. Right?
 
RE: Prevention is better than cure.  
by W9PMZ on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"W9PMZ - Carl,

I think you missed the point here. No one is suggesting that HOA/CC&R residents rush right out and erect a huge tower if the FCC allows antennas. What it does suggest is a change in current rules to allow the amateur an antenna.

What is interesting is that many of these developments allow TV dish type antennas on the roof but nothing else. I say what is good for the goose is good for the gander. No dipoles, no TV dish antennas, period. If you want to be an HOA/CC&R antenna NAZI then do your job to the fullest and get rid of all antennas once and for all. If not then shut up and live and let live!!

Haven't we lost enough of our basic freedoms already??"

Antennas and freedom, while I am very sympathetic to the argument a basic flaw in the logic is continued to be perpetuated in the relationship between a HOA and the Government. The Constitution defines what the Government can and can't do. If you enter into a contract that restricts a portion of your freedoms, you were free to enter into that contract (so long as it is not criminal or specifically prohibited by law).

Here in Ohio, in Lancaster, a county sheriff deputy became unemployed as a result of a post on a news paper site that was critical of the sheriff. Why? His employment contract specifically banned this type of activity. The deputy did not have his rights voided by the governement, he gave them up when he signed the employment contract.

As I said the crux of the arguement will be, does that HOA contract in relationship to antennas be voided by Federal Interest. Frankly, hams are such a small voice and developers are a larger voice seems to me almost a forgone conclusion. The only reason why dishes are allowed again is back to money. What voluminous commercial interests are going to reap money by hams having a tower?

But there is always hope and I did sign the petition.

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by WT3O on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
KA5KMS: "I don't think the FCC currently has or will ever be granted any authority to regulate private HOA/CC&R with regard to antenna restrictions."

OTARD specifically addressed HOAs and CC&Rs. The FCC HAS regulated private HOA CC&Rs.

KA5KMS: "People who purchase private property with antenna restrictions are forever legally bound to the HOA to abide by their agreed to HOA/CC&R rules."

I wouldn't say "forever legally bound" because some CC&Rs have been stricken by the US Supreme Court. CC&Rs have been historically used to prohibit certain races and religions from moving into certain neighborhoods. Also, as seen by the FCC's OTARD, certain provisions in CC&Rs can be declared void as against public policy.

KA5KMS: "As usual, the only winners in the end will be the lawyers. If you find yourself in this fight....lawyer up!"

Not necessarily. I handle some work pro bono - I do it because I really care about the issue.
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by K1CJS on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Sorry, but just as much as I believe that there are too many 'controls' on our lives as to what we can and cannot do, I have no sympathy for those who willingly move into a HOA controlled subdivision and then cry in their corn flakes that they can't pursue their hobby. And I DO NOT buy into the belief that in some places there are no other areas available to purchase a home in. If you're too lazy or not motivated enough to find such a place, that's your problem.

With that said, I do think that reasonable accomodation for antennas and ham radio should be made by any HOA--especially if the antenna can't be seen from the front of the house, or be easily found, such as with stealth antennas. However, 'reasonable accomodation' does not mean anything at all that the homeowner wants to put up. If you want that hundred foot tower with that huge beam hanging over the area, FIND a place that will allow it--don't complain because you can't have it anywhere you want!
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by W4KVU on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Beat this dead horse some more-----
Read before you sign.....
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AA4PB on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
It doesn't matter whether you buy into it or not - THERE ARE becoming more and more areas where you cannot purchase a house without restrictions. You either have to commute long distances or live in an old run-down neighborhood in a high crime area and send the kids to sub-par schools.

Most are not saying that HOAs should permit someone to put a 100-foot tower with a stack of monoband Yagis on the lot. Many HOAs however will prevent you from putting up a simple wire dipole in the back yard. The FCC makes them permit a satellite dish, so why not a dipole?

Then there are those who got into ham radio AFTER they purchased their HOA restricted home. If they've got the money I guess they could move - provide their mortgage isn't upside down.

It amazes me that so many hams (presumably those who are fortunate enough to live in an unresticted area) are so resistant to making accomodation for those who do live in restricted areas.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by K8QV on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Come on, it ain't rocket surgery! You make a CHOICE. Would you rather have a shorter commute to work, better schools, cookie cutter neighborhoods, assurance the 'different' people can't move in, or do you want an antenna farm? I'm sure that people's whose hobby is painting cars or raising goats have to make the same choice. Hey, how about learning to operate a radio in mobile or portable mode?
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N4UM on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
A total of 2501 online petition signatures have been collected as of 0930 EDST 5/9/12. If you'd like to sign the petition check it out at...

http://www.change.org/petitions/federal-communications-commission-void-antenna-restrictions-by-homeowner-s-associations-and-developers



 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N4TOL on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"""It amazes me that so many hams (presumably those who are fortunate enough to live in an unresticted area) are so resistant to making accomodation for those who do live in restricted areas."""

It is not only amazing, it is baffling and inexplicable.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AE6RV on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Beat this dead horse some more-----
Read before you sign..... "

And then find an older neighborhood that doesn't have CC&Rs, because you certainly aren't going to find at newer one that doesn't. CC&Rs are ubiquitous and they all say pretty much the same thing: "We don't want your kind."
 
RE: Sorry, I forgot!  
by AA3NJ on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
You might live in an area of the country that was developed 40 to 60 years ago. There are few HOAs in those areas.

How about the 12 or 13 year old who has a budding interest in ham radio, but who lives in an antenna restricted area. Dad, can we move so that I can put up a dipole? Sure, kid.

This is not just about where an existing ham would like to live. It is about fostering the next generation of ham radio.
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AJ4EM on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I don't want the FCC to have this authority.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AE6RV on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"I don't want the FCC to have this authority. "

And I don't want the HOA to have this authority. If you don't want to live in a 50 year old subdivision, you will have to deal with a CC&R that is anti-ham radio. There is no real choice in the matter.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by KD7YVV on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
To me, it's the FCC's way of telling the HOA people that
they cannot absolutely forbid antennas.
That's why I signed the petition.

Here's my take on the situation:

Attitude, compromise, and common sense.

Let's deal with attitude first.

If you come to my door with a beligerent attitude, and
start telling me what to do in my own home, I'll tell you
where to buy a ticket on a slow boat to hell and not to let
the door hit you in the ass on the way out. You just don't
go to someone's house and disrespect them and their domain.
It's not right, and being from NJ, I have no problem dealing
with attitude. I'm an expert at dealing with a bad attitude.

For instance, if you come to my door telling me to take that
!@#!@# antenna down because I'm interfering with your TV,
that's not the way to gain my cooperation in finding a mutual
solution to your problem.

Now, if you come to my door and introduce yourself, and explain
that you saw my antenna and tell me you think it could be me coming
through your TV, this tells me that there could possibly be something
wrong with my station. I'm not saying crawl over and act like a mewling
puppy, but at least be man enough to shake my hand, treat me, and my
house with the same respect you'd expect to be treated with, and I'll
do what I can to try to help find a solution.

Compromise....

Let me tell you about my neighbor. Because of my neighbor down the road
I have to have a compromise antenna. While it's not the ideal setup, a
dipole below the tree line will have to do. My neighbor happens to be
the Ocean Shores Municipal Airport. As such, the dipole will have to do.
Although I don't own an amplifier, I've found I don't really need one.
Using 100 watts or lower makes the hobby more challenging.
Where's the fun if everyone is 599 solid copy or 40 over S9?


Common sense.....

The one reason I don't have a tower is because of my neighbor.
Even though the airport is a small airport, it does get used.
I think that's why the FCC got involved, because hams were being
told absolutely no without the chance of reasonable accomodation.
Hams are supposed to be ambassadors of goodwill, and if you approach
your HOA with the attitude of "my house, my way etc." then the HOA
will probably vote against you and you won't gain any friends by doing
so. However, opening up a dialogue and explaining your hobby and trying
to find a solution that works for both sides, that's common sense, right?


With housing the way it is, there are many many properties on the market
for sale, just look at my community of Ocean Shores for an example.
You don't HAVE to live in an area with HOA/CCRs, but unfortunately, that's
where most of the modern conveniences are. Ocean Shores is sort of the
boonies, and since I don't drive, if I want to go to a bank branch that
my ATM card is with, I have to ride a bus 2 hours to do so.
I signed the petition because I don't believe an HOA should have the absolute
say on what I can do with the property on which I pay the mortgage.




--KD7YVV, ever the optimist......



 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by WB2WIK on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I don't have any restrictions but signed the petition a long time ago.

Do I get a cookie?

Just researched "new homes for sale" in my area and found several new never-occupied homes in nice neighborhoods and no mention of HOAs, so I had to call the agents one by one to ask them about HOAs and have them send me a copy of CC&Rs if any applied.

Some had deed restrictions and HOAs, some had no recorded restrictions but still had an HOA (!), and some didn't have either one.

The ones having neither were not in "developments," they were built by speculators on lots purchased by those folks and are often "one of a kind," not any sort of tract. They cost just a little bit more than similar tract homes and are unrestricted, just have RA (residential-agricultural) zoning. You could raise farm animals at most of them, right here in the big city.

I kind of like that. But I don't need any farm animals.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by KD7YVV on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
No cookie! Cookies make you fat! :)

There are non HOA/CCR places if one takes the time
to look.

--KD7YVV, too fat for his own good
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by WW0H on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
A few years ago, a fiber optic line was cut that closed down our 911 center, all long distance, and anything out of the local calling area. The only communication we had was with my HF station in touch with a station in Topeka, KS. The "black-out" only lasted a few hours, but if LE or EMS needed any back-up, there was no other way. This part of Nebraska is fairly remote from a larger community. HT's & Cell phones were useless.

My thoughts.

John - WW0H
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AA4PB on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I'll bet that in your part of Kansas you can buy a place without HOA covenants too :)

You never know though. I once lived in a place that was about 90% farmland and the whole county had a 35-foot tower height restriction that nobody enforced.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by WW0H on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
At the moment, I live in Nebraska; the only restriction I have is tower height. A variance might be available, but mine is as high as I care to climb right now. But looking at retirement in Wichita, non-HOA territory is hard to find, unless I want to live in the next county, which would defeat the purpose of moving in the first place.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by W3DBB on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"nobody enforced" is good. I live in a subdivision that will soon be 50 years old. It has CC&Rs in the deeds but no HOA to enforce them. We're not supposed to have sheds or animal pens. There are sheds on just about every property (mine included) and there might be one animal pen on a residential lot in this neighborhhood.

In close to 50 years 3 different developers have come and gone, which may partly explain the lack of a unified command. The original subdivision still has open lots and there is currently no developer active in the area. It's not fancy but much nicer than any "condo-ghetto" (tnx,W2VJZ) I've ever seen.

So theoretically just the existence of these unenforced CC&Rs might violate what some perceive as my Constitutional right to do with my property as I wish. Frogwash. I knew what was in the deed when I signed the purchase agreement.

The lots in the original subdivision (an old farm) vary from about 1/3 to 3/4 of an acre. I have the second largest lot in the subdivision. I don't mess with towers and beam antennas because:
1. I Have little interest in the HF bands above 7.3 mHz.
2. I don't want to spend money on towers and HF beam antennas.
3. They don't fit in with the character of the neighborhood, i.e. 40-50 year old suburban tract homes with sheds and the occasional (hi hi) animal pen.
4. If I manage to live into my 70's or 80's I will be very fortunate indeed to be physically up to climbing towers. Failing that the cost of hiring a commercial tower outfit will be prohibitive, I am sure. It's bad now. End result? A deteriorating tower with the unusable remnants of a once-proud antenna at the top. It's a frequently repeating scenario.

I read the FCC Public Notice pertaining to impediments to amateur emergency communications. At a hamfest I attended this past weekend the SM indicated ARRL requested the Public Notice but other areas of the Commission wanted to get involved with their questions. Now the notice has more questions than a hippie at a Chamber of Commerce meeting. The SM referred to this as having a diluting effect.

I'd respond to the Public Notice but find the barrage of questions rather befuddling. I'll even gladly sign a petition written in "readable English" (the words of a GM I once worked for) that is logically laid out and makes sense.

CCRs and the HOAs that enforce them should be required to accomodate small vertical antennas for 2m and 70cm and unobtrusive wire antennas for the HF bands, with a further stipulation the close-spaced living quarters are not to be inundated with high-power RF. It really just boils down to the exercise of common sense, not easily found these days, and not something that can be legislated or regulated.
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AD7C on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
An amateur operator in Arizona filed a Petition for Rule Making with the FCC in what has become, at least locally here, very interesting. I know him personally, have spoken with him about it, and find the proceedings (articles) he has submitted extremely well researched. He has even requested a ruling from the US State Department on what he calls 'treaty' violations. A little beyond my knowledge but it all makes a great read.

More can be found here:
http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/proceeding/view;jsessionid=m2yGPQshqLqL8QWtr31TpPnQm2DT716vHjwwyTS6fQ1JkhzLvSYh!-321460796!1471562840?name=PRM12WT

A google search for PRM12WT will also return the results.

Rich
AD7C
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by KF4HR on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
A HAM wins HOA battle in court!!!

http://www.news10.net/video/1628000618001/1/Wilbur-the-pig-battle-against-HOA-in-court
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AA4PB on May 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
The problem with unenforced regulations (and CC&Rs too) is that someone can decide to enforce them. You may have a tower up for 10 years with no problem and suddenly a neighbor (especially one well connected) decides he doesn't like it and the county inspector is out there telling you to take it down. "Grandfathering" only applies if you put the tower up BEFORE the regulations were approved. If the regulations said 25-feet max at the time you installed your 50-foot tower then you are likely to have to remove half of it.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by WD4HXG on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Despite agency's efforts to assemble equipment, teams and plans to address disasters the many variables of communications infrastructure make the concept of ONE SIZE FITS ALL response a problematic solution from the start. Limited resources projected into an area do not include technical staff and equipment to quickly solve problems and implement solutions as they occur.

The reason that amateur radio works when others fail is the flexibility of the amateur to implement changes on the fly. Add to that the amateur often has a minimal set of technical skills to include being able to twist two wires together to make a connection. Lets not forget motivation.

In a few words amateurs have the resources, skills, desire, and natural geographic distribution to construct post disaster ad hoc networks of communication while government first responders are bound to the limits of their one size fits all boxes. Amateurs have the option to think outside the box and often do.

Amateur radio is not a solution too every communication failure but time and again it has been able to be first on the air after a disaster, and ready when government leaders were willing to use it.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by K7CB on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
W9PMZ - Who said anything about a tower? Why do so many amateurs assume that when the debate over deed restrictions comes up that the amateurs restricted by them are asking to put up a tower? When I lived in an deed restricted community, all I wanted to do was put up a vertical antenna, whether it be mounted on the roof or in the backyard.
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by WT3O on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
AJ4EM: "I don't want the FCC to have this authority. "

They ALREADY have this authority (see the FCC OTARD Rule). The government in general has ALREADY exercised this authority (see US Supreme Court cases striking down CC&Rs used for racial/religious segregation purposes).

Besides, you don't decide the authority of the FCC, Congress does through the Telecommunications Act of 1934, as amended from time to time.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AA4PB on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
AJ4EM: "I don't want the FCC to have this authority. "

Lets think about this a little instead of just being anti-government. The FCC already has the authority to tell YOU that you have to have a license, to tell YOU what you have to do to get that license, to tell YOU what frequencies you can operate on, and to tell YOU how much power you can run. But you don't want them to have the authority to tell your HOA that they have to provide a reasonable accomodation for an antenna so you can operate YOUR FCC regulated station?????

Can we say "shoot ourselves in the foot"?
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by W3DBB on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
AA4PB: "The problem with unenforced regulations (and CC&Rs too) is that someone can decide to enforce them."

I agree and it is a concern.

The existence of clauses, covenants, & restrictions and an active homeowner's association to enforce them can cut a number of different ways.

My mother lives in an executive enclave that was initially developed after WWII. There are CC&Rs written into all of the deeds. About 10 years ago a group of neighbors the wanted to start a homeowner's association but there wasn't enough interest to make it fly. So there is no HOA in her neighborhood.

A few years back one of the residents decided to subdivide his property, which is explicitly prohibited by deed restriction. There is that temptation since some of these lots are quite large by typical residential standards.

The party divided his property, sold the part with the house on it, built a stable on the other part, and allegedly was boarding horses not belonging to him. BTW, horses and horse stables, subject to deed restrictions, are permitted in this neighborhood, but not on properties without a house and certainly not for loan, trade, or business.

A furor ensued and a meeting was set up with the Township's Board of Supervisors. Oldtime residents were, for the most part, not happy with the course of events.

Bottom line was the Township Solicitor said the deal had been done with nothing to stop it and the Township wasn't going to get involved. If individual neighbors wanted to pursue their own legal avenues that would be up to them. The horses were removed but the half-lot parcel with stable remains.

An active homeowner's association, enforcing the deed restrictions, might have prevented this.

HOAs and CC&Rs are not intrinsically bad. It's the rules in some of these newer neighborhoods which make them a poor value for the money. Rules which evolved over time to become today's boilerplate. Rules which almost have the force of law because local governments didn't want to spend the taxpayer's money to be involved in what goes on in their own jurisdictions. It was cheaper and easier for them to vacate their responsibilities to the HOA. The banks like it too. Banks and land developers are formidable foes.

I do believe in reasonable accomodation for amateur operation in these neighborhoods. Legally defining the reasonable part will be a new, rather small, yet growing area of the legal business.

 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by KT4EP on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Cousin in Ocean Springs, Mississippi after Hurricane Katrina, had to get on his roof and stand just so in a particular spot, to get a marginal cell phone signal. Bet he would have liked some ham radio equipment at that moment.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by K7NNG on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
K1CJS........................
IN IDADO, YOU CANNOT, CANNOT CANNOT PURCHASE YOUR DREAM HOME ANYWHERE IN THE STATE WITHOUT BEING IN A HOA, UNLESS OF COURSE YOU WANT TO LIVE IN THE STICKS.
GET YOUR GOD DAMN FACTS STRAIGHT.
 
RE: Sorry, I forgot!  
by K3LUE on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Isn't it Cali that is predicted to quake and break off the continent and float into the Pacific?
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by K8QV on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
These Nazi encampments only exist because we want them. If people (not just hams) refused to buy a home (that they apparently don't really own) in such over-regulated areas, those ridiculous associations and covenants would disappear. We, as a society, get what we deserve.
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by TTOMAS59 on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I am single and live in a run down trailer park in a run down trailer. As such several lots next to mine are unoccupied. As a result I have installed an ocf dipole for 80 to 6, end fed half waves for each band 40 to 10, and a 135 foot extended doublet. Add to that I lack a hot water heater but I am able to shower where I work.

Everything in life is a compromise so find what works for you but dont expect everything you want.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N1DVJ on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Really? I want to live in that big house on a 6 acre lot that costs a million dollars. My income won't support the mortgage. Do I really have the freedom to live there?

The point is that there are lots of things that limit where a person can afford to live - like schools, commute distance, cost, distance from family who may require your assistance, etc. "

And why should YOU be given the ability to VOID agreements, LEGAL AND BINDING agreements, just because you whine that you can't afford elsewhere? What gives you the right to say they don't apply to you? Give me a freaking break!

If you want to solve the problem, then fine, attack the source. But if you tamper with a HOA where I agreed to a specific set of requirements, prepare to take me on as well as the HOA.

As to the source, yes, go after it.

The problem is the TEMPLATES that organizations use. The same thing is happening in business with these templates the HR departments get for policies. They are NOT designed to be an overall template for a business to enact as policies, but as a source to PICK AND CHOOSE from. That's how some of the assinine policies about things like guns, dress, behavior, whatever, get into manuals. HR departments taking the easy little-work way out and just taking the whole thing.

With a business, employees should complain early and loudly in the selection process, and make sure the rules are selected and decided on intelligently.

How to do this what HOAs? Frankly, I have no idea. Once the first person buys into an HOA with this garbage, then it's locked. But, you have to consider, the people already IN the HOA all have bought in to something that they agreed to, and you don't have the moral and ethical right to change it if even one person stands their ground.

Just my opinion, from someone whose sick of hearing the whining...
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AA4PB on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Contracts are voided all the time because they contain things that are in violation of Federal or state regulations. Why can the guy who wants to put up a satellite dish, even though his CC&R may make ALL antennas illegal, get to do it? If the FCC has the power to void the CC&R for those antennas why can't they also do it for a simple ham antenna?

If I lived in an antenna restricted area I'd put a nice big whip on my car, park it the driveway, run a coax into the house and connect it to a 1500W linear.

But then I've seen CC&Rs that say "no two-way radio operation permitted from anywhere inside the development". Clearly something like that is not even an antenna issue.

 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by KC7MF on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
No two way radio from inside the development?

Just make afew neighbors shut off their home wifi and their cell phones and you will see that rule go away.

Besides. THAT would violate the FCC regulations regarding the right to control the airwaves.
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AJ4EM on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I don't want the FCC to have this authority.

The authority of homeowner's associations is at least local, it's better than the fed gov taking yet another power for itself.

And if it isn't for me to decide what authority the FCC has, then what's the point of this petition?
 
RE: Prevention is better than cure.  
by K7JAN on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I willingly moved to an HOA it was a place I could afford, be debt free and be near my grand children....
I have not slowed my ham activity one bit...have attic antennas, flagpole antenna and no shortage of DX and contesting....
Tower and beam I may never have again and I am sure the guy next door did not sign on for that....My 2 cents.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AE6RV on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"But, you have to consider, the people already IN the HOA all have bought in to something that they agreed to, and you don't have the moral and ethical right to change it if even one person stands their ground. "

Google "the OTARD rule".
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N1DVJ on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I'm aware of "the OTARD rule", and while I would say that from a very technical standpoint it is not moral or ethical either, I do agree with it.

HOWEVER, you can counter it being unethical with the arguement that changing and evolving technologies have forced hands and a rulechange was made desirable, reguardless of circumstances, for the benefit and advancement of ALL.

100 years ago there were rules that people operating motor vehicles in some cities had to have an 'escort' that would walk ahead of the motor vehicle to warn people with horsedrawn carriages to control their horses in case they got spooked. Times changed. In the 1930's it was actually against the law to install rear view mirrors on cars in a number of states. Ever wonder why? Times changed. Or why in a lot of states there's STILL a law on the books about 'coasting' in an automobile. Doesn't seem to apply now, except it is used occasionally against the hypermilers that insist on practicing to the detriment of surrounding traffic. Technology changes, times change. I'm sure I could come up with lots of others...

Yes, these examples aren't directly appropriate, as there weren't people who had 'contracted' into arangements based on the soon-to-be outmoded standards. (Well, maybe the Amish with the horse drawn carriages...)

But... We can hardly claim that the need to overrule contracts that were AGREED TO BY ALL need to be overturned by an 'advance in technology'.

And that's the bottom line. You want to either break a contract that you are in with OTHER PEOPLE regardless of their wishes. Or you want to invalidate a requirement of a contract other people agreed to so that you can join their group without having to adhere to a rule they all agreed to. And in both cases probably AGAINST their wishes.

To me, both choices are immoral and unethical.

If you don't like the rules of the game, either get EVERYONE to agree to a new game or GO SOMEWHERE ELSE and play a different game. Don't be the spoiled little whiney kid that ruins the game for everyone involved.
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by K3LUE on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
A chance to have the FCC go to bat for the ham and there's dissension? Shows us that in this day and age, there are some that will disagree with anything, as long as they think they have "an agenda."
Government control? It started when they wrote the Constitution. If people were really smart enough, the gov wouldn't have to control anything. However, we found that doesn't, hasn't, and won't work..people being smart that is. In fact, that's the exact reason the Founding Fathers wanted the Electoral College....they didn't trust the masses anymore then than we should now. I look at these cult factions of the political system, fanatics on either side (t-party and others maybe fit this) and wonder what their solutions are after all the bluster is done. Easy to criticize, difficult to solve and lead.
Sign the thing, get the FCC and the ARRL on board, pass it, and sort it out later. HOAs are usually those grown up kids that have a bone to pick with everyone, were tossed in their lockers overnight in junior high, and now, they have a chance for power.....and they use it without concern and indiscriminately in too many cases.
Glad the issue is in the forefront. Puzzled by why it isn't embraced.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AC5WO on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Carl wrote: "Can someone tell me how having a 35 ft tower in the backyard after a tornado has plowed through is going to facilitate emergency communications? Or for that matter a hurricane?

Hand helds and cell phones are the back bone now. Carriers even have portable cell sites that can be deployed at a moments notice.

This is not to say that hams can't help."

Amateur radio provides a decentralized wide area communications network that's not dependent on any other infrastructure. A ham with a wire dipole antenna, a HF rig, and a car battery can communicate with other hams even if the power grid is down and cellular networks are not working. Ideally hams would be fairly evenly dispersed in the general population, but boilerplate deed restrictions prohibiting outdoor antennas tend to keep active hams out of the newer neighborhoods. Some amateur radio operators have found creative ways to erect clandestine antennas in areas where they are prohibited, but because the antennas are in violation of the rules, those hams tend to hide their amateur radio capability from their neighbors. It is in the public interest to explicitly allow these stealthy antenna so hams can openly prepare to provide communications capability for their neighbors.

I don't believe that hams need a tower to provide effective communications after a disaster, but hams do need to be able to openly put up thin wire horizontal dipole or inverted V antennas that are effective for 80/60/40 meter regional NVIS communications plus some VHF/UHF antennas at roughly roof height to support local simplex communications for when repeaters are not available.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N4UM on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
.
2600 signatures on the online petition at 5 PM EDST May 10. If you're interested in signing it, check it out at the link below...


http://www.change.org/petitions/federal-communications-commission-void-antenna-restrictions-by-homeowner-s-associations-and-developers

 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AE6RV on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Don't be the spoiled little whiney kid that ruins the game for everyone involved."

Pot. Kettle. Black.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by W9PMZ on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"I don't believe that hams need a tower to provide effective communications after a disaster, but hams do need to be able to openly put up thin wire horizontal dipole or inverted V antennas that are effective for 80/60/40 meter regional NVIS communications plus some VHF/UHF antennas at roughly roof height to support local simplex communications for when repeaters are not available. "

The light has turned on... Remember the biggest argument in favor of HOAs will be Field Day. In other words, the ham community doesn't need home antennas since they are so proficient at setting up in remote locations and practice this every year.

Again, I would like to see HOAs overturned with repect to antennas. But I don't see it happening...

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N1DVJ on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!

"Pot. Kettle. Black."

Sounds to me as if someone has the intelligence level of a pot...

 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by WW0H on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Rocket surgery? I thought it was rocket science.
 
RE: Sorry, I forgot!  
by WW0H on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
My brother lives in CA; he says that when the "big one" hits, everything east of the fault will slide into the Atlantic.
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AB3MO on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
A need for HF communication antennas can still exist. Had not 40m been available, a good deal of the emergency traffic from Japan, for several days, would not have been able to get out of the country following the tsunami. Land and cell phone communication equipment, including wire, microwave, and fiber optic links, were destroyed!
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N4UED on May 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
WE HAVE MANY HURRICANES THAT HAVE CAME THROUGH NC . HAM RADIO HAS PLAYED A LARGE ROLL . SHERIFF'S OFFICE COMMUNCATIONS IS JUST FOR THEM . WITH HAM RADIO I WAS ABLE TO CONTACT THE COAST GUARD TO BRING IN WATER AND MRE'S FOR PEOPLE . I SHOULD KNOW I WAS THEIR . MY RADIO IN MY PATROL CAR WAS USELESS . THE HAM RIG , HOWEVER GOT THROUGH .
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by KG4RUL on May 11, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"HAM RADIO HAS PLAYED A LARGE ROLL" - did that roll have sesame or poppy seeds on it? "I SHOULD KNOW I WAS THEIR" - I was their what?
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by KD4SBY on May 11, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Living in Punta Gorda,FL in 2004 I went through the aftermath of Hurricane Charley. Nothing was working anymore in the area, power failures, downed lines an destroyed towers severly restricted all kinds of communications. Although the Disaster Officials had been prepared for just such an event, they were overwhelmed by the situation, and here the Radio Amateurs were a big help by establishing communications among themselves and relaying information to the authorities. Although I could not help because of the lack of a generator, I know of hams that had one and who were within hours on the air using hastely errected wire antennas or mobile stations to establish communications with the outside world.
You do not need fancy beams, big towers, or high power to get out in those circumstances, everybody is eager to contact you as if you were that rare DX station.
Although things have changed in the field of communications since then, it is hard to imagine the chaotic circumstances a disaster can bring, and the usefullness of having an Amateur Community available to help can not and should not be under estimated.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N4KC on May 11, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
This beaten horse is now beyond glue! But I can't help myself:

Have all of you actually read the petition? Look at the last paragraph:

"We request the Federal Communications Commission to take whatever steps are necessary to immediately void all existing private land use restrictions dealing with antennas used for the transmission or reception of radio signals and to disallow any future creation of such restrictions by private homeowner’s (sic) and property owner’s (sic) associations. We further request that the Federal Communications Commission consider the establishment of reasonable criteria for permitting the erection of antennas in private residential areas."

First, I assume the restrictions mentioned are referring to legal contracts willingly signed by buyers of real estate. The incorrect use of the possessive notwithsatnding, do you really understand what you are asking the FCC to do? You really want them to void all existing contracts that contain any restrictions whatsoever that deal with antennas on private property? And do you truly want the FCC to establish "reasonable criteria," even if that criteria may be more restrictive than what you have now?

Say you have bought your dream home and managed to put up a dipole without incurring the wrath of the Neighborhood Nazis. Suddenly, the restrictions go away with the declaration by the FCC, as you requested when you signed this petition. Your neighbor jumps for joy and immediately erects the ugliest, most obtrusive pile of aluminum, steel, and wire imaginable, all so he can listen to Radio Moscow (it does say "transmission OR reception of radio signals."). That pile of junk casts such a shadow that your roses die. It is so shoddily constructed that it tilts toward your "castle" every time the wind blows.

I still say I hate the mere thought of onerous restrictions on my ability to do what I want to do on my own property...well, mine and the mortgage company's. But the fact remains that 99.9% of your neighbors are perfectly fine with the contract they signed when they bought a home there. The same contract you signed if there are restrictions or covenants in place. It protects their property values as well as their sensibilities. Yours, too. Restrictions increase the value of homes. Many won't buy a house in a neighborhood without them.

I was surprised to learn in these comments that you can't buy a home in Idaho without HOAs. Or that you have to move miles outside a town in most areas of our nation to find non-HOA property. As a former realtor, I saw an increase in such restrictions as the suburbs expanded into previous farm land, sure, but I also could take you to plenty of very nice neighborhoods where reasonable antennas would not be a problem. Starting a hog farm in your backyard would be.

Maybe, considering the price of pork and the need for food during times of disaster, we should petition the Department of Agriculture to "take whatever steps are necessary to immediately void all existing private land use restrictions dealing with the raising of livestock and to disallow any future creation of such restrictions by private homeowners' and property owners' associations."

73,

Don N4KC
www.n4kc.com
www.donkeith.com
http://n4kc.blogspot.com





 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by K1CJS on May 11, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
NY7Q--Two things. First, there is no need to swear. Second, Living in the 'sticks' is preferable to some. Just because you want to live 'fashionably' doesn't mean there aren't places where you can. Get off your rear-end and look, and you'll find some.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by K1CJS on May 11, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Also, pal, compromises have to be made. If you're so set on having your hundred foot tower, it doesn't mean you can't, you just have to find a place where you can. Or are you one of those privileged few that figure that if you're stopped from doing something in the place you want to do it, you can't do it at all? It certainly seems so.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N1DVJ on May 11, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"...surprised to learn in these comments that you can't buy a home in Idaho without HOAs..."

Maybe HE can't...

It can be frustrating finding housing that you both like and can afford. I went though that a few years ago, and at first I was going to declare NO COVENANTS to the realtor. But then when we found an acceptable house, we totally forgot to ask. But know what? There were none!

And later when I divorced, I did remember when I bought a house across town, and there were none.

My ex-inlaws have a covenant on their property. A couple of them. No above ground pools. No campers (unless active registration). There were a couple of others. But know what? NOTHING about antennas.

I have a friend who bought a house with a covenant. No motorcycles. (no off road or ATVs, actually.) Again, nothing about antennas.

When I hear the "you can't ..." I assume that it just means they were lazy and didn't look once they found their target house was 'tainted', and paint a broad stroke with the brush on the whole situation.

I heard that repeatedly when I lived in Ft Worth, and know what? There were NO RESTRICTIONS in my development where I built my house. My friend and neighbor put in a 110' tower at his place two developments away. He eventually took it down though, as insurance was a KILLER if you didn't have the fall zone totally in your own property. Heck, in his case, it could take out 3 houses depending on direction!

I just don't believe these people who say it can't be done. Yes, maybe it can't be done EASILY, but I really doubt it can't be done.

Hey, maybe I can petition to make then sell me a house in Lincoln for a price I can afford!! Now THAT just can't be done!


 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N4UM on May 11, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Maybe, considering the price of pork and the need for food during times of disaster, we should petition the Department of Agriculture to "take whatever steps are necessary to immediately void all existing private land use restrictions dealing with the raising of livestock and to disallow any future creation of such restrictions by private homeowners' and property owners' associations." - N4KC

N4KC - I believe it all started with the Magna Carta which included a statement about the right of citizens to petition the government for grievances. I think our constitution also has words to the same effect. So, feel free to start your own petition if you feel that way about pork - a subject near and dear to the heart of any congressman. If you don't want to sign the FCC petition, don't sign it.

Apparently you would rather beat a dead pig than a dead horse.

But seriously, if you think the FCC should not do what the petition requests, start your own petition to the FCC asking them to do what they've been doing for the past 20 years on this issue - NOTHING!

Tim, N4UM
 
RE: Prevention is better than cure.  
by WB4SLI on May 11, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Well, maybe some cities do not have CC&R's that completely restrict amateur operations. 99% of the property within 25 miles of me has these CC&R's in-place. It has affected where I live. I love it when people try to make one think that there are plenty of subdivisions that do not have CC&R's to the point that you cannot paint your house, put a potted plant on the porch, or do myriad other things without HOA approval. Yes, the tower will come down in 125 mph winds. It may be that my tower is high enough that your location is within my VHF/UHF horizon and is unaffected. It may be that my HF capability is the only means of getting info to the agencies that need it. It may be that the subdivisions with the tight restrictions are the last to receive assistance because of these same restrictions. So be it.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N5ACK on May 11, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I live in an HOA restricted development.
Bought my house knowing I would see what I might be able to put up that would not offend anyone or draw attention.
I have my 2m/440 inside my attic, so no one sees that obviously.
My HF antenna is a Hustler 4BTV, so it's 20' high.
I used to have a 31' vertical and no one said a word about that. Now, I'm sure if I had a 35 foot tower, that would draw attention.
I don't think most HOA's are going to go after someone with a peashooter, they're going to go after the guy with a tower with stacked yagis.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AB4D on May 11, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
by K7JAN on May 10, 2012 "I willingly moved to an HOA it was a place I could afford, be debt free and be near my grand children....

I have not slowed my ham activity one bit...have attic antennas, flagpole antenna and no shortage of DX and contesting....

Tower and beam I may never have again and I am sure the guy next door did not sign on for that....My 2 cents."

I am glad to see, there are at least a few hams that get it. He moved to a HOA controlled community, and complied with the rules, oh the shock and horror.

I don't understand the mentality of hams who AGREE to move to a home that has certain restrictions, and then want to tread on their neighbors rights, and ignore the contract they signed and the rules they agreed to obey. IMO that pretty selfish to want everything their own way.

Regardless, if you want to have big antennas, beams and towers, the solution is simple. Move where they are permitted.

I suspect, at least some of these guys complaining about HOAs, are trapped because their spouse won't agree to let them move the family to purse their hobby.

73
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by KE4KE on May 11, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
One aspect that is often forgotten is that in an area there are a limited number of cell sites with a limited number of people who can repair them and keep them running. The infrastructure is also very limited in how much load (traffic) it can handle at any given time especially after disaster. Compare this to the number amateur radio operators and their equipment sites and it becomes obvious that amateur radio has an advantage to be available when needed most.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by KA5KMS on May 11, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
W3TO: "OTARD specifically addressed HOA's and CCR's. The FCC has regulated private HOA CC&R's."

OTARD addresses minimal necessary means for reception of public radio and TV broadcasts, a much different intent and purpose than the ham radio hobby.

W3TO: "I wouldn't say 'forever legally bound' because some CC&R's have been stricken by the US Supreme Court. CC&R's have been historically used to prohibit certain races and religions from moving into certain neighborhoods. Also, as seen by the FCC's OTARD, certain provision in CC&R's can be declared void as against public policy."

I recently declined relocating my residence to a neighborhood with covenants specifically forbidding erection of 'any' type of outside antenna or wire, with exception to one small satellite TV dish, not to be installed on rooftops and installation location to be inspected and approved by the covenant administrator, who was the attorney for the subdivision CC&R. When you sign a contract containing CC&R's with prior knowledge of what you are signing, you 'are' legally forever bound by that contract until it is changed by the contractee or a higher authority. Normally, this means going to court.

Race-religion restrictions are not applicable, comparable or relative in this matter of antenna restrictive CC&R's. I doubt the US Supreme Court will ever consider antenna restrictive CC&R's. The point is the policy of the HOA - CC&R agreed to by signature of the customer. If it says "No Antennas" that's what it means. If it says you can only have a green car or electic powered vehicle in your driveway, you must abide by it. Public policy can also include the rights of non-hams who don't want antennas in their antenna restricted neighborhoods.

W3TO: "(Lawyer-up) Not necessarily. I handle some work pro bono- I do it because I really care about the issue."

Sounds like you are a lawyer, which I'm not. I have no opinion (pro/con) with this issue, as I chose not to be subjected to antenna restrictive CC&R's. It's a free country - some do and some don't. But I think anyone should be able to foresee the vast array of legal implications arising from the FCC having absolute authority to strike down any-all-or even some HOA CC&R's relative to amateur radio antennas and how complicated this matter would become. What would be the minimal required antenna for a particular area, location, or operation for a ham radio? Would it be a hanging wire (tower supported if no trees)? vertical? tower mounted log periodic beam? CB big gun for ten meters? I can forsee all types of antenna structures being tested to circumvent CC&R's from the very beginning. Then come the lawsuits from neighbors who spent their hard earned money to buy property with restrictive antenna covenants because they desired these covenants. It can become a legal 'free-for-all' with everyone being 'fair-game', even the HOA's and FCC. If the FCC strikes down antenna restrictive CC&R's, lawsuits could be flying in all directions.

 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by WA1RNE on May 12, 2012 Mail this to a friend!

Using the emergency communications argument to circumvent HOA/CC&R's still doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Hams still offer alternative emergency communications capabilities for the public. An amateur station within a local government EOC provides a vital alternative communications capability - but not from a residence.

If this petition even sees the light of day, its merits will be reviewed closely and that means one thing: - proving your argument.

>> Over the last 10 years, can hams demonstrate in significant numbers, the contributions made to emergency communications while operating from their home stations?


The ARES groups will claim they do until you ask them to produce official correspondence from the public safety or government agencies they claim to have served with indispensable communications - which are never available.

Unfortunately for hams who have signed into these agreements, commons sense will prevail and much time and effort will have been wasted.

 
RE: Prevention is better than cure.  
by KC5CQD on May 12, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Really? I want to live in that big house on a 6 acre lot that costs a million dollars. My income won't support the mortgage. Do I really have the freedom to live there? "

Yes, you most certainy do! This is America. If you want to live in that big house that sits on 6 acres.....make more money. It's within your grasp and ability to do so.

When my wife and I were house hunting we had only one hard and fast rule. "No HOAs!!" We refused to live anywhere that our neighbors could tell us what color to paint our front door. We could have saved some money by moving into an HOA community and trading away some of our personal freedom but we opted to spend a bit more and buy in a neighborhood that gave us total freedom over our own property.
 
RE: Prevention is better than cure.  
by K6MA on May 12, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
You are assuming that someone is a ham before purchasing. In my case I lived in this community before I "discovered" ham radio. Now I have a real problem as I do not have an attic and nowhere to put an antenna. HT is the only thing that almost works due to the mountains on 3 sides of my home.
I did write a letter to ARRL for them to forward to the FCC and I did sign the petition.
73 Terry Hall K6MA
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AE6RV on May 12, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"First, I assume the restrictions mentioned are referring to legal contracts willingly signed by buyers of real estate."

Is any contract with a monopoly ever a truly willing contract? Are you a willing participant if you have no other effective choice which is also desirable? And yes, CC&Rs are effectively a distributed monopoly because of the sameness of their contracts. No, it's not one company, but they all have essentially the same rules and restrictions.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AC7DX on May 12, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"by K7JAN on May 10, 2012 "I willingly moved to an HOA it was a place I could afford, be debt free and be near my grand children....

I have not slowed my ham activity one bit...have attic antennas, flagpole antenna and no shortage of DX and contesting....

Tower and beam I may never have again and I am sure the guy next door did not sign on for that....My 2 cents."

I am glad to see, there are at least a few hams that get it. He moved to a HOA controlled community, and complied with the rules, oh the shock and horror.

I don't understand the mentality of hams who AGREE to move to a home that has certain restrictions, and then want to tread on their neighbors rights, and ignore the contract they signed and the rules they agreed to obey. IMO that pretty selfish to want everything their own way.

Regardless, if you want to have big antennas, beams and towers, the solution is simple. Move where they are permitted.

I suspect, at least some of these guys complaining about HOAs, are trapped because their spouse won't agree to let them move the family to purse their hobby."

We have 100s of thousands hams without CC&R's.. to handle all emergencies and thousand upon thousands hand-held's
Dont need no stinking towers in my HOA.....
Why dont the whiners use remotes...or move...they both work
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by KC7MF on May 13, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
It is hard to not simply laugh at posters like some who become overheated by this issue. It is as simple as this. Do we value the Amateur Radio Service or do we not?

I am tired of the absolutely idiotic notion that reasonable accommodation includes towers and other tall antennas. It is equally idiotic to maintain that a discrete vertical antenna or wire between trees should be of concern anyone.

The fact is that increasing antenna restrictions do jeopardize the future of our hobby. The notion that there are plenty of us who are not subject to these restrictions also misses the point. If significant numbers of people choose not to participate because they can't have even a discrete antenna at home then the hobby is already in difficulty. It is in the interest of the country to encourage more hams not fewer.

Of course the federal, state and local governments could always choose to provide the service and capability we provide for free and just tax all of us to pay for it. Then we wouldn't have to worry about those nasty HOAs. Right?

So what part of REASONABLE are you having trouble with?
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N4UM on May 14, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
KE7UXE - Nicely put. The best concise summary of the whole business.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N4UM on May 14, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
BTW, the number of signatures on the online petition reached 2700 this morning at 8:30 AM EDST, May 14. If anyone still wants to sign the petition they can check it out at...

http://www.change.org/petitions/federal-communications-commission-void-antenna-restrictions-by-homeowner-s-associations-and-developers
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by WT3O on May 14, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
KA5KMS: "OTARD addresses minimal necessary means for reception of public radio and TV broadcasts, a much different intent and purpose than the ham radio hobby."

OTARD, however, specifically addresses CC&Rs and declares, as a matter of public policy, any CC&R that prohibits a satellite dish or television reception antenna unenforceable. Therefore, the FCC has, as I have previously stated, regulated private CC&Rs with OTARD.

KA5KMS: "I recently declined relocating my residence to a neighborhood with covenants specifically forbidding erection of 'any' type of outside antenna or wire, with exception to one small satellite TV dish, not to be installed on rooftops and installation location to be inspected and approved by the covenant administrator, who was the attorney for the subdivision CC&R. When you sign a contract containing CC&R's with prior knowledge of what you are signing, you 'are' legally forever bound by that contract until it is changed by the contractee or a higher authority. Normally, this means going to court."

"Race-religion restrictions are not applicable, comparable or relative in this matter of antenna restrictive CC&R's. I doubt the US Supreme Court will ever consider antenna restrictive CC&R's. The point is the policy of the HOA - CC&R agreed to by signature of the customer. If it says "No Antennas" that's what it means. If it says you can only have a green car or electic [sic] powered vehicle in your driveway, you must abide by it. Public policy can also include the rights of non-hams who don't want antennas in their antenna restricted neighborhoods."

A CC&R is a CC&R, regardless of its matter. A CC&R "runs with the land," which means that the land is forever bound by the CC&R. However, as the Supreme Court and state courts have demonstrated, there are certain circumstances where a CC&R will not "run with the land." Technically, it is still a covenant, but it is void as against public policy, so it technically still "runs with the land" but it practically does not "run with the land."

It seems that the crux of your argument is that it is ok to invalidate some CC&Rs, for whatever reason, but it is not ok to invalidate other CC&Rs because that would violate the freedom of contract that we so enjoy. This illogical: you cannot support the invalidation of some CC&Rs and not others. I have personally read CC&Rs in Baltimore that prohibit African-Americans from certain neighborhoods. The parties there had the freedom of contract and some people were simply not welcome in those neighborhoods. The CC&R says "no blacks" and that is what it means. Should we enforce these because of the freedom of contract between private parties? After all, is this not what the grantor intended when declaring the covenant? Using your logic, this is no different than allowing a green, hybrid vehicle on the property: only non-African Americans are able to be on the property. Just change the color from green to blak and the item from a car to a person, the rest of the CC&R is the same. The point is you are saying "we shouldn't have racial CC&Rs because they violate public policy." That public policy is only because the Supreme Court has declared such a public policy.

Lastly, one need not go to court to change these circumstances. There are two ways laws are created: statutes enacted by congress and common law declared by the courts. The Supreme Court need not decide this issue if congress, through the FCC, is willing to tackle this issue - which is the whole point of FCC GN 12-91.

KA5KMS:"Sounds like you are a lawyer, which I'm not. I have no opinion (pro/con) with this issue, as I chose not to be subjected to antenna restrictive CC&R's. It's a free country - some do and some don't. But I think anyone should be able to foresee the vast array of legal implications arising from the FCC having absolute authority to strike down any-all-or even some HOA CC&R's relative to amateur radio antennas and how complicated this matter would become. What would be the minimal required antenna for a particular area, location, or operation for a ham radio? Would it be a hanging wire (tower supported if no trees)? vertical? tower mounted log periodic beam? CB big gun for ten meters? I can foresee all types of antenna structures being tested to circumvent CC&R's from the very beginning. Then come the lawsuits from neighbors who spent their hard earned money to buy property with restrictive antenna covenants because they desired these covenants. It can become a legal 'free-for-all' with everyone being 'fair-game', even the HOA's and FCC. If the FCC strikes down antenna restrictive CC&R's, lawsuits could be flying in all directions."

I am an attorney, yes. I can understand your logic of "if you don't want CC&Rs then don't live there." I would like to point out that it took my wife and I two years of house-searching before finding a property without CC&Rs that was in our price range. We can easily say "just avoid the problem and don't move there," but it is more complex than that. Until the 1960s, interracial marriages were unlawful in Maryland (and much of the south). Your logic would dictate a response of "don't move there if you want to have an interracial marriage." While this is easy to say, it is difficult to implement because of various factors such as employment, financial considerations, family living nearby, etc... Until the Supreme Court stepped in (Loving vs. Virginia).

I have avoided the whole CC&R debacle by living on my acre equidistant from Gettysburg, PA, and Baltimore, MD. However, there are many who are not as fortunate.

Look, I am as conservative as it gets and I don't think we would be giving any additional power to the government.

I am sorry if anyone is offended by this post, but the last time CC&Rs were a hot-button issue was in the 1960s during the civil rights movement.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N1DVJ on May 14, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I agree that while OTARD addressed CC&Rs, it wasn't as cut and dry as you make it sound. I could be argued that the FCC overruling CC&Rs were based on a change of technology that could not be foreseen by the original authors of the CC&Rs. And when the FCC did step into the mess, there were legal arguments that the CC&Rs as enacted were commercial in nature due to cable company influence and should be invalidated.

To imply in the least that CC&Rs of a ham nature is anywhere at all even remotely related to civil rights is just beyond belief. But then stranger things have happened in the courts.

However... I feel that it will be a loosing battle to argue against CC&Rs when even the ham community is divided on their invalidation.

I'm glad you have a property that doesn't have any restrictions. But I just don't see ANY legal justification for invalidating contracts the way this petition wants to do so. In fact, I see this petition as possibly opening up a door for MORE restrictions.

From my experience ham radio operators shoot themselves in the foot on many occasions, and this could be the 12ga magnum shot that really does some damage. Like the guys that try to argue about antenna height for 'public service' when even most hams will agree that's BS speak for 'I want to work DX'. Come on... If you want to argue antenna height, argue that it REDUCES RF interference. The public service angle just doesn't cut it when most of the general population just perceives us as wacker wannabees and glorified CBers. Face facts, some of the public persona of ham radio is just one step above "The people of Walmart" website...

 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by WT3O on May 14, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
N1DVJ,

I know it's a long shot for the FCC to invalidate the CC&Rs that restrict ham antennas, but we're closer now than we ever have been in the past, so why not give it a hard-fought try?

I'm not implying that antenna restrictions are on the same level as civil rights CC&Rs. I'm saying that the logic of not wanting the government to have the power to invalidate ANY CC&R doesn't make sense when applied to the civil rights issues. A CC&R is a CC&R regardless of its content. The government has, in the past, invalidated certain CC&Rs. I know there are some diehards out there that don't want to "give" the government this power. My argument is that the government ALREADY has this power, so we're not giving up anything. The FCC saw the need to invalidate CC&Rs pertaining to television reception antennas and satellite dishes, so maybe they see more potential with amateur radio for emergency communications than we realize.

I know there are guys out there with lightbars on their cars and emergency signage ready to go at a moment's notice, and I don't know what to say about that. Have you ever seen hamsexy.com? It's like People of Walmart, but specifically for ham radio.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by K5END on May 15, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Quote: "Hand helds and cell phones are the back bone now. Carriers even have portable cell sites that can be deployed at a moments notice. "

Response: Hurricane IKE took out the cell towers in Galveston and Bolivar Peninsula. However, the COWs* were not deployed for days because:

1. No road traffic was allowed to cross the causeway bridge into the island for days--until it was deemed structurally safe.
2. Many of the roads along the island were washed away by the storm surge, leaving no path to bring in the COWs.
3. The storm surge left boats, large and small, on the roads, blocking traffic. Moving all those boats took days.

Members of the legislature noticed how Ham radio helped significantly after Hurricane Ike, and this contributed to the activity you are seeing now regarding HOA impediments.

The news media did not give Ike his due representation. Ike was eclipsed by the financial bailouts at the time. Ike was a terrible event. At first, relief (like fresh water) logistics communications were a "cluster _." I'll never forget what we went through, nor how the hams helped out with logistics for the "PODs." Fortunately, a few members of the legislature took notice.

*A portable cell site is called a "COW" (cell on wheels).
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AA4HA on May 15, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
The emcomm thing is a red herring. It is much more rational to argue for an accommodation based upon relatively unobtrusive antenna installations, eg. wires and maybe a ground mounted vertical. Things that do not obliterate the skyline or appear to loom dangerously over your neighbors house.

My father had a 60' Rohn 25 bolted up to the side of the house with a gigantic multi-band beam, topped by a vertical. The beam antenna clearly overhung our neighbors house as there was just enough room between the homes for a single wide driveway. It was intimidating as hell, creaking and groaning in the wind. When his health deteriorated to the point where he could not climb the tower he gave it away to some local amateur who came and took it down. From then on out he would use a ground mounted Cushcraft in the yard.

There were scarier looking antennas in the neighborhood with quad arrays of yagi's, almost a hundred feet in the air. Most of them looked pretty "junked up". It was that type of installation that drew the attention of the CCR crowd. We only have our own past practices to blame for the state that we are in today.

I have always been a wires antenna girl and they have worked great for decades. It takes more effort to put up a good dipole but you can keep below the roof line and in your own back yard, from the street the entire installation is invisible.

I worked EMCOMM from the other side (EMA director) for about 13 years and never had a problem working local operations or even in nearby towns 15-20 miles away. If we had to set up a mobile command post we could fully duplicate the capabilities of the EOC, even using 110 watt 45 MHz radios to light up half of the voting receiver sites back to the state EOC.

I hate to say it but "emergent volunteers" (ham, CB radio operators) were unwelcome. they did not work through our incident command system, did not follow the rules regarding zones of access, evacuation, public information or confidentiality of victim information. They decided to set up their own little systems and gravitate to the television vans where they would editorialize for the 5 pm news about things they had no idea about. I made several good faith efforts to bring them on board, to get them to volunteer and to be trained in ICS. Most tired of that after a few months as it was too much of a commitment. We did not want to string up homebrew antennas on the roof of the EOC. We wanted reliable, predictable and repeatable communications tools. We wanted information in specific formats and prioritized.

Maybe the EMCOMM efforts of recent years will help. It is all for naught if you do not join a local organization and become part of their structure.
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by W6UX on May 15, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
We had a discussion about the ARRL and it's use of regional reps to deal with antenna issues. I brought up the point that unless the ARRL was going to somehow engage the people who write the blanket antenna bans into new housing developments, the ARRL will continue to face a decline in the number of youth that get into ham radio.

Why?

Because kids don't choose where they live, the parents do. And if the parents aren't already involved in Ham radio, they don't care about an antenna ban (or they LIKE the ban). So when little Bobby learns about this cool hobby at school from some grizzled old ham vet, he's SOL if he wants to setup a nice HF station.

It was pointed out by another member of my club that often it is the banks that force developers to put in antenna bans or they won't fund the project.

It's a nice gesture to "study" the effect HOAs and CC&Rs have on Emergency Comms, but i just can see there being enough of a problem to subvert existing HOA contracts. They let us put satellite dishes on HOA homes because just about everyone uses TV.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AE5JU on May 15, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Can someone tell me how having a 35 ft tower in the backyard after a tornado has plowed through is going to facilitate emergency communications? Or for that matter a hurricane?"

My reply - Even if a ham's antenna is destroyed by an event, he can erect another. BUT he must have an antenna of some sort in the first place to develop the on-air skills he'll require.

"Hand helds and cell phones are the back bone now. Carriers even have portable cell sites that can be deployed at a moments notice."

My reply - No, hand helds and cell phones are not the backbone now. After Katrina it was many months, in some cases years before repeaters in the REGION were back on the air. And cell phone towers were damaged. Land lines were out of service, as far as anything out of the local area, for many weeks.

Katrina, Rita, Gustav, Ike, caused regional, not local damage. HF is needed to get communications in/out of a regional disaster.

73,
Paul - AE5JU
 
RE: Prevention is better than cure.  
by N4RRL on May 15, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Now play nice or you have to go to bed without your suppers.

We are hams. We are friends. We care for one another. Right?"

Well, maybe we are friends as long as you don't stand between me and my supper!! ;-)

73,
Joe
 
RE: Prevention is better than cure.  
by AH6WX on May 17, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I see a lot of repetition in this dialogue, some strongly held beliefs, and a decent amount of hot air.

Let me make a few observations, and all of you can challenge/attack my views.

1. The FCC has full control of the air waves. They could, if they desired, invalidate any CC&R anywhere anytime that involves radio waves.

2. Some CC&Rs were written 30-40 years ago, and the authors could not possibly envision 2012. Take for example a CC&R that prohibits transmission of radio waves/electromanetic spectrum energy in a HOA. OK if that is going to be enforced literally, you can't drive a modern vehicle. Shut down your microwave oven and your computer if it uses WiFi. I need not even mention cell phones and other I-devices. In such a case probably 99% of the HOA residents are violating the CC&R before we even touch amateur radio...Now suppose that restriction got challenged in court. It WILL be thrown out.

3. Various HOAs/ AOAOs have differing requirments for changing the CC&R rules all by themselves via homeowner vote. Typically somewhere between a simple majority of owners to 75-80% are required to make a change. Maybe not easy, but possible in theory. The votes needed to change any HOA document are usually spelled out in the ByLaws.

4. Sadly a lot of amateur radio operators buying in to HOAs do not take the time to read the Association documents. That is almost the biggest mistake you can make after failing to check the conditions and documentation on the home you purchase. Here you need to be agressive. Most real estate agents know nothing about amateur radio or are prejudiced against any outside antennas. There is the unproven assertion a radio antenna in a neighborhood will lower property values. And frequently real estate agents do not volunteer Association documents until after a property enters escrow. You should DEMAND to see the documents before you make an offer. Then read them carefully and consider the consequences on your amateur radio activity plus general life style. If you don't understand the documents, spend a few $$ to have an attorney explain them.

5. And not all CC&Rs shut down amateur radio entirely either. Many of those written 30-40 years ago are vague on the subject and badly written. For example in my HOA in Hawaii the relevant CC&R says "no outside antenna EXCEPT by permission of the Committee." Think a minute. That does not say no antennas ever, ever, no matter what. There is a way to work the loophole, and get an outside antenna. And I did just that. I went through a denial by the Committee but won my case on an appeal to the existing Board of Directors.

Do I now have an antenna farm? No. But I do have a TMM433HD tower w/ 3 El. yagi. I believe it is the only tower in NW Hawaii County. So yes you can beat some HOA rules some of the time if you do your research. Be sure to carefully read the Otard rule, legislation about flag poles, and US Public Law 103-408. Good luck!

FYI I am now on the HOA Board and have helped to make our remote Pacific island location a bit more antenna friendly.
 
Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by KG4INK on May 17, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
HAMS are attempting to skirt HOA rules under the false pretense of the what if emergency situations.

Lets just call it what its really about, you want to put up antennas at your home so you can enjoy your hobby.

Because if this was really about emergency comms then you would really only need to argue for putting up antennas in the event of a national declared emergency. And any other time they would be stored safely away on the property.

So this emergency comms argument is really weak and a sorry excuse for people who really just want self serving to be able to put up antennas year around.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N4UM on May 17, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
KG4INK - QUOTE "HAMS are attempting to skirt HOA rules under the false pretense of the what if emergency situations. Lets just call it what its really about, you want to put up antennas at your home so you can enjoy your hobby."

Operating a radio is much like flying an airplane or doing open heart surgery in that the best way to maintain proficiency is to practice the activity on a fairly frequent basis. Being able to operate a radio from one's home facilitates the maintenance of operating proficiency. Sure it's somewhat self-serving but it also has benefits for the community. What's wrong with a little quid pro quo?
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by W6EM on May 17, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
W6UX said:"Because kids don't choose where they live, the parents do. And if the parents aren't already involved in Ham radio, they don't care about an antenna ban (or they LIKE the ban). So when little Bobby learns about this cool hobby at school from some grizzled old ham vet, he's SOL if he wants to setup a nice HF station."

This is the future of ham radio, as it stands now, and it's bleak.

What he said was my story as a HS kid 51 years ago. Saw it and wanted it by virtue of a HS club/station. My father was a farmer, but we lived in town. He didn't own the land he farmed on, so we couldn't live on the farm. If, in the 1960s, there had been antenna restrictions, I'd probably not have pursued a license and would have meant my life taking a different direction because I couldn't have hung a simple 40M dipole.

How many kids across America want to get a license but are "SOL" because of antenna restrictions and bans on transmitters in their subdivisions? Probably thousands. Big loss, America.

Lee
W6EM (My old HS club call)



 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by W6EM on May 19, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Tim, N4UM:

As a suggestion, since the FCC "study" is to be sent to the House Energy and Commerce Committee, there are two hams in Congress (the only ones to my knowledge) and they are both members of that committee.

Greg Walden, WB7OCE and Mike Ross, WD5DVR. Might be a good idea to forward your petition to each of them. So far, the FCC only has 186 comments in its Docket 12-91. And, it is now officially closed for comments.

I can't see how it would hurt. Almost 3,000 signatures is impressive.

73,

Lee
W6EM
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N4UM on May 19, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Lee - W6EM

Thanks for the info. I'll forward them a link to the petition site where they'll also be able to read a number of the additional comments made by petition signers.

Tim - N4UM
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by AF2DX on May 21, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Many of us hams do not want a tower.
All we need is a wire in the roof or going out the window to a tree.
Were not allowed even a window mount antenna.
I live in a HUD apartment and people here just kiss managers A## and tell them I cause TVI.
I had a nice wire antenna for three years then was told to take it down because I was given the wrong information.
I even mailed all the big shot hams who were thanked for their work at the 9-11 site.
I worked there for 2 weeks and when I mailed all the political hams that got their names in the paper,not one ever responded.
The people who own this building are breaking laws and the police do nothing.
They told me because it's private property.
The system just SUCKS
BOB
AF2Q
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by LNXAUTHOR on May 24, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
sorry to read about hams hobbled by HOAs and landlords... i've always figured 'if there's a will, there's a way'...

i live in an HOA but have a great dipole up a tree out back... my solution was 'stealth,' and a good, strong braided wire (Wireman's #532 @ $0.19 a foot)... end-fed dipoles (perhaps such as the Miracle MMD) can also help...

another solution might be to go portable in a park - makes for a fun outing and a little exercise is good... i use a Lakeview hamstick dipole mount w/17M hamsticks on an SD20 pole - works great!

maybe go mobile, set up a rig in the vehicle...

or build a man-pack and take a hike - you'll burn calories and burn up the airwaves, too - just watch that trailing counterpoise!

:-)

how about going bicycle mobile, learn to love spandex, and work on your quads? the XYL will love it!

or use a buddipole, do your operating in the picnic area, then take it down...

get a hardcopy of the rules where you live and then bend them until management screams!
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by N2LRB on May 24, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
During the most recent New York City Blackout the New York Police Department lost their ability to communicate with their officers in cars and via their walkie-talkie because their hand helds ran out of power after their regular charge and they had no way to recharge them. Their repeaters went off line the moment power was lost. All cell phone towers were off the air and only real land lines worked. Some hams had to shadow police in order for the police to communicate. So as you can see, cell towers, police, fire, TV, regular commercial radio and others went off the air when the black out hit. So do not hold out hope that the authorities will be on the air. Seems only us hams were on the air.
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by WD5DNQ on May 27, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks KE7UXE, for this, it's the most sensible thing said yet:

"It is hard to not simply laugh at posters like some who become overheated by this issue. It is as simple as this. Do we value the Amateur Radio Service or do we not?

I am tired of the absolutely idiotic notion that reasonable accommodation includes towers and other tall antennas. It is equally idiotic to maintain that a discrete vertical antenna or wire between trees should be of concern anyone.

The fact is that increasing antenna restrictions do jeopardize the future of our hobby. The notion that there are plenty of us who are not subject to these restrictions also misses the point. If significant numbers of people choose not to participate because they can't have even a discrete antenna at home then the hobby is already in difficulty. It is in the interest of the country to encourage more hams not fewer.

Of course the federal, state and local governments could always choose to provide the service and capability we provide for free and just tax all of us to pay for it. Then we wouldn't have to worry about those nasty HOAs. Right?

So what part of REASONABLE are you having trouble with?"

I can only add that I couldn't believe how a bunch of people found a way to attach this question to their fav. ideology (usually right wing). Not every conflict between groups of people implicates an ideology, or has God on one side or the other of it. Most conflicts between competing interests are solved by A BALANCING OF THOSE INTERESTS. Courts do it all the time.

WD5DNQ
 
RE: Attention: HOA/CC&R Restricted Hams:  
by KB1NXE on May 30, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I think the more vociferous defenders of putting up the 100' tower or two or three in their back yard are more defenders of being able to do with their property what they please than defenders and champions of Ham Radio and all it's flavors.

And in my opinion, that's what it comes down to. I personally think a HOA lowers property values for this reason. As it eliminate one of my fundamental rights. To be able, within reason of safety and health, be able to do almost anything I choose with my property. Regardless if I want to paint my house flat black or gleaming silver. That should be my and only my choice.

AND - there is not even anecdotal evidence that supports property values are lowered because a neighbor has a non-commercial radio antenna supporting tower on their property. Because, if there was, you can bet the courts would be clogged with people challenging their property taxes with virtually every municipality across the country.

So, while I understand the 'don't like it, don't live there' crowd, I also realize there are places in this nation, especially growing places, places with jobs, do not allow any other choice than to live in a HOA controlled and regulated area. Phoenix, Arizona comes immediately to mind. So if your company moves you there, what do you do? I guess your real choice is to give up your job and all the bad that comes along, or give up the hobby. Or commute to work, shuttle the kids back and forth to every little event in their life and travel ice cream melting distances for groceries. Now how's that for the quality of life for the rest of the family just so you can talk on the radio?

Why does someone else - Someone you never met, Why do they have the authority and power to force you into a decision like that? That's the root problem behind a HOA. It strips freedoms and the right to pursue life, liberty and happiness.

Yup, on both sides. But if an area is virtually 100% HOA controlled, then I lose. If it's 50% controlled, and 50% uncontrolled, then everyone can win.

 
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