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ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana' Remarks:

from The ARRL Letter, Vol 22, No 38 on September 27, 2003
Website: http://www.arrl.org/
View comments about this article!

ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana' Remarks:

The ARRL has strongly objected to FCC Commissioner Kathleen Q. Abernathy's suggestion that Broadband over Power Line (BPL) technology will contribute to what she described as "broadband Nirvana." Addressing the United Powerline Council's annual conference September 22 in Arlington, Virginia, Abernathy expressed unabashed enthusiasm for BPL and recommended a combination of regulatory restraint and the elimination or substantial modification of existing rules as steps along the "path to Enlightenment," as she put it. In a terse response faxed September 25 on behalf of the League's 155,000 members, ARRL Chief Executive Officer David Sumner, K1ZZ, asserted that Abernathy overlooked some significant issues in her Nirvana analogy.

"Nightmare is more like it," Sumner declared. "The technical showings submitted by the ARRL and others in response to the Commission's Notice of Inquiry (NOI) in ET Docket No. 03-104 clearly establish that BPL is a significant source of radio spectrum pollution. It cannot be implemented without causing harmful interference to over-the-air radio services."

Sumner told Abernathy that while BPL industry groups, such as the one she addressed this week, prefer to deny the evidence, the FCC is obliged to work to a higher standard.

In its comments in response to the FCC NOI, the League characterized BPL as "a Pandora's Box of unprecedented proportions" and said the Commission's Part 15 rules "should be modified so as to prevent interference to users of the HF and low VHF spectrum" from the outset.

Abernathy's speech, "Reaching Broadband Nirvana," never broached the topic of BPL's potential to interfere with other radio services. Recently, the National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA) http://www.ntia.doc.gov -- which regulates spectrum allocated to federal government users--expressed "broad concerns" about interference to government users and launched an extensive modeling, analysis and measurement program for BPL. In his letter, Sumner reminded Abernathy that the radio spectrum is a precious natural resource.

"To squander that resource simply to add a redundant, unnecessary, and relatively poorly performing 'last mile' connection for consumers, is unconscionable," he said. Sumner expressed the hope that Abernathy will give the League an early opportunity to explain its BPL concerns to her in person.

In her remarks to the UPLC gathering, Abernathy contended that it's been regulatory restraint rather than heavy-handed regulation that has allowed nascent platforms such as direct broadcast satellite (DBS) to become competitively viable. "When the Commission completes this rulemaking," she said, "I expect that we will eliminate many existing rules and substantially modify others; the central question is the degree of regulation that will remain during the transition to a more robustly competitive market."

Individuals may e-mail Abernathy via her FCC Web site http://www.fcc.gov/commissioners/abernathy/mail.html or directly kabernat@fcc.gov. The text of her prepared remarks also is available on the FCC Web site http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-239079A1.doc.

The League's initial 120-page package of comments and technical exhibits http://www.arrl.org/announce/regulatory/et03-104/ and its reply comments http://www.arrl.org/announce/regulatory/et03-104/reply-comments-index.html are available on the ARRL Web site. Additional information and BPL video clips are on the ARRL "Power Line Communications (PLC) and Amateur Radio" page http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/.

To support the League's efforts in this area, visit the ARRL's secure BPL Web site https://www.arrl.org/forms/development/donations/bpl/.

To date, more than 4600 comments--many from the Amateur Radio community--have been filed in response to the FCC's BPL NOI. They are available for viewing via the FCC's Electronic Comment Filing System (ECFS) http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/ecfs/.

Source:

The ARRL Letter Vol. 22, No. 38 September 26, 2003

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD7EFQ on September 27, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I have an Idea. After the NTIA concludes it's testing of the experimental BPL sites, (so we do not interfere) a large group of mobile QRO (500W+) stations need to gather in the BPL test areas for a weekend and have a QRO mobile QSO party. Primarily, working each other in the respective test areas for 48 hours straight. If the reverse interference theory is true, we should make the BPL uses internet connections go away, and therefore expose a major flaw to the consumer. If the rumor mill works effectively, BPL's reliability will come into question, and maybe give it's marketability
a "Black Eye". Farmers & Truckers protest by flooding Washington with fleets of tractors and trucks, Why don't we do something similar. 73. T
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KG6AMW on September 27, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Apparently Ms. Abarnathy is a well educated attorney with an excellent work resume. Her call to fame is the promotion of “broadband technology” which in itself is not a bad thing. But its discouraging to see a FCC commissioner turn a blind eye to the facts that BPL is nothing more than a broken and polluting second rate Internet access process backed up with slick marketing material and group of corporations who have set out to make money by polluting the environment. Ms. Abarthnathy I understand your zeal and claim to fame but this is not the only broadband game in town. Use that great mind of yours to see the facts and to move on to another broadband project.

KG6AMW
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD7EFQ on September 27, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To KG6AMW:
You hit the key word about the problem with the entire FCC. Ms. Abernathy is an ATTORNEY, not a masters or doctorate in EE. The structure of the FCC is entirely wrong. it should be ENGINEERS, NOT ATTORNEY'S. 73.
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KC6MMI on September 27, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
well if the BPL comes to pass....I hope it does not but if it does, I would hope that every Licensed armature in North America compels the ARRL & FCC to re instate the 5KW power limit as this will be the necessary minimum needed for reliable communication's.
at 1.5 KW we don't stand a reasonable chance.
BTW: YES I have written my Reps and the FCC regarding BPL & MANY other issues as Electronic mail / Filing's mean squat.
if you really want to be heard, hand write then Mail your concerns.
Rich
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by KC6MMI on September 27, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
typO: armature should be Amateur.
Rich
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by KB2PSM on September 27, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
...a large group of mobile QRO (500W+) stations need to gather in the BPL test areas for a weekend and have a QRO mobile QSO party. Primarily, working each other in the respective test areas for 48 hours straight. If the reverse interference theory is true, we should make the BPL uses internet connections go away, and therefore expose a major flaw to the consumer...

Unfortunately, this may not be the answer. The (potential) consumers and providers of BPL would complain loudly. If you recall history, when the analog cell phones came out, the industry touted its secure nature. Anyone with even a small amount of radio technology knowledge knew that this was a lie. Rather than admit the truth and take a hit in sales and reputation, the promise continued while scanners were forced into redesign and in some cases banned. Both the industry and their (duped) consumers pressed hard for change, prevailing over the rights of scanner/ham enthusiasts and the fact that over-the-air analog transmissions could not be cloaked as was claimed.

With the power and money of BPL and the potential loud voices of its consumers, I fret to think about how the Amateur Radio service will be "modified" so that the BPL providers may continue to keep their promise to consumers should Amateur Radio transmissions cause the BPL providers to break their hyped promises.

Just a thought,
Rob KB2PSM
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by KE6I on September 27, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Yeah, the 14.313 mentality just makes us look like a bunch of losers.
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD7EFQ on September 27, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Okay, if there's nothing we can do at all, then I'll work on my export licensing so I can start buying your radios for $00.10 on the dollar once BPL makes them useless here. Maybe I can sell them to South Americans or Indonesians at a reasonable profit. That's the problem these days, too many Americans, including Politicians are SPINELESS! 73.
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD7EFQ on September 27, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Okay, if there's nothing we can do at all, then I'll work on my export licensing so I can start buying your radios for $00.10 on the dollar once BPL makes them useless here. Maybe I can sell them to South Americans or Indonesians at a reasonable profit. That's the problem these days, too many Americans, including Politicians are SPINELESS! 73.
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD7EFQ on September 27, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Okay, if there's nothing we can do at all, then I'll work on my export licensing so I can start buying your radios for $00.10 on the dollar once BPL makes them useless here. Maybe I can sell them to South Americans or Indonesians at a reasonable profit. That's the problem these days, too many Americans, including Politicians are SPINELESS! 73.
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by KE6I on September 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I just believe it's better to be calm about these things. And if people make comments here about how they're going to jam BPL, what might happen is that the BPL companies could take this out of context and use it against us. Better if the hobby appears law-abiding, rather than trying to jam everyone off the air for the coming battles. (And, besides, jamming never works anyway. It never worked for the USSR, and never worked on 14.313, or whatever.)
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by N2MG on September 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Amazing how many times our elected or appointed bureaucrats and average countrymen can fall for this "magic pill" scenario without ever considering the downsides.

We've had various deregulations, the rise and fall of nuclear power (remember when everyone believed it would be our savior, now it's barely tolerated), all kinds of obtrusive laws - many with no longterm benefit, but lots of longterm pain...

This is what happens when you have non-Engineers (or Engineer-types) running things. They have never experienced creating/building anything tangible themselves, and so have never seen the "law of unintended consequences".

The problem with making a bad product like BPL and releasing it, is that once it's "out of the bag" there's little we can do to put it "back in". But by then, all these bureaucrats will be gone and will have already cashed in on the perqs the lobbyists promised them.

Mike N2MG
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by KG6AMW on September 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Mike I hate to give government civil servants a bad name. Most of them do work quite hard and are directed by regulations and budgets. The problem is with a "Appointees". These tend to be people who come from monied/connected backgrounds. They go to good schools and start building resumes via law firm stints, appointee positions within government and lobby work. They associate with one party or the other and pick a particular area of interest. Unfortunately they know little about business and economics (and) have little practical experience in managing programs and people. Even rarer is to have technical knowledge. They are building resumes and hope to one day end up a Commissioner, Senator, etc. I've worked with many appointees and quite frankly, these are the people have little practical experience. It ends being the civil servant who has to remind them that what they are doing may create problems or is just plain illegal.

KG6AMW
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by KG6AMW on September 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Mike, I just saw where you used the term appointed in the your post. Sorry, then my comments are just in addition to yours. Thanks

KG6AMW
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD7EFQ on September 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Pardon me if i seem quite frustrated, but I'm very concerned about this. I just got my reply fom Wyoming Rep. Barbara Cubin, and she says it's too early to tell if BPL will be a viable resource but she will work to see that if it's implemented, it will not interfere with existing services. This is the same Rep. who made some news by sending birthday cakes to fellow female reps with a part of a man's anatomy as decoration on the cake. I dont put much faith in her words. She always has voted for big business interests before. It amazes me that Attorney's, not engineers are FCC commisioners. I just hope I'll still be able to DX on HF 20 yrs from now. 73. T
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by W1RFI on September 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
> You hit the key word about the problem with the
> entire FCC. Ms. Abernathy is an ATTORNEY, not a
> masters or doctorate in EE. The structure of the FCC
> is entirely wrong. it should be ENGINEERS, NOT
> ATTORNEY'S. 73.

The FCC has a competent engineering staff. Although ARRL did offer some "political" comments in the NOI proceeding, the majority of its filings were the technical studies done by the League's engineering staff. Hopefully, science will hold sway.

The most telling of the studies, IMHO, was the one done based on VOACAP. That study literally showed that the world-wide communications reliability of HF is right at the brink with the present levels of man-made noise. An extensive deployment of Part-15 emissions such as would be seen with BPL would literally and truly turn HF from a worldwide band into one with limited regional coverage, at least at amateur power levels. That study was not based on any presumptions about how power lines radiate -- it was based on the 30 uV/m at 30 m from the present FCC rules.

See http://www.arrl.org/~ehare/bpl/hyperlinks.html for links to all of the industry and organizational filed comments.

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD7EFQ on September 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To W1RFI,
Ok Ed, so I guess the bottom line all amateurs want to know is what is the likely timetable we're looking at here. How long before we know if we have done any good at all, or if we will get brushed aside and BPL will get fully underway. Any word? 73 T
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by W1RFI on September 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
> Ok Ed, so I guess the bottom line all amateurs want
> to know is what is the likely timetable we're
> looking at here. How long before we know if we have
> done any good at all, or if we will get brushed
> aside and BPL will get fully underway. Any word?
> 73 T

At a recent industry conference, an FCC representative indicated that they felt they would know what they want to do by early next year.

While it it possible to go to a Report and Order from a Notice of Inquiry, it would be my guess that if the FCC is going to make any rules changes, they will go to a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking and start this whole thing all over again.

The NTIA has been making measurements in three of the trial areas. They had indicated that their results would be released toward the end of the year. I had looked at the test plan they submitted to the FCC and I have a lot of confidence that they will find the same levels of interference that I did in the same areas. At least the industy won't be able to "spin" that as a fund-raising ploy as they are trying to do with ARRL's work. :-)

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI

 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD7EFQ on September 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Ok, Thanks for the info Ed, & the Hard work. I've written or called all of my reps here in WY. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
 
BPL is a farce - more cost effective substitutes e  
by KT8K on September 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I noted that the Dilbert cartoon strip of September 8th (http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20030908.html) proposed a great substitute for BPL, at least in urban areas: providing data service via the sewer lines. Admittedly it doesn't do much for the rural set (and I know that is the target of BPL) but ... couldn't sewer lines be used as waveguides at some frequencies? They're fairly well shielded when below ground.

And what about roads? They go just about everywhere - is there a frequency that will duct through asphalt and concrete pavement? (It had better be measured in gigaHertz or ... there we'd go again.)

Seriously, though, for the truly rural, I can't believe that BPL would be, in total investment, cheaper than the current 2-way satellite-based data service one of my friends employs. The only hardware he has to worry about is from the dish on his garage roof to his computer. Hopefully Ms. Abernathy will soon learn more about the topic and put the assertions of the self-serving and greedy people promoting BPL in proper perspective.
 
RE: BPL is a farce - more cost effective substitut  
by AA4PB on September 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
As a retired Federal employee, I can assure you that the FCC is not alone in having the technical areas managed by non-engineers. Technical decisions are being made by lawers and accountants who have no clue about the engineering facts every day.
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by N3NL on September 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Dear Commissioner Abernathy:

The Broadband over Power Line (BPL) technology is not a "Broadband Nirvana". The BPL technology will cause intense interference with many different users of the radio spectrum.

In this regard, please examine the following issues with BPL in FCC docket 03-104. The commenting parties are listed in parentheses.

- Interference with TV broadcasting on channels 2 through 5 (National Association of Broadcasters)

- Interference with FM radio broadcast reception (National Public Radio)

- Interference with decameter radio astronomy (National Academy of Sciences - Committee on Radio Frequencies)

- Interference with amateur radio communications (American Radio Relay League, Inc., Amherst Alliance, etc.)

- Interference with assistive devices for the deaf and blind (Telecommunications for the Deaf )

- Interference with Citizens Band Class D radio channels (Amherst Alliance and other commentors)

- Interference with Military Affiliate Radio System stations (Amherst Alliance and other commentors)

- Interference with transoceanic aviation communications (ARINC, Inc.)

- Interference with short wave broadcast listening (North American Short-wave Association and others)

- Interference with radio controlled model aircraft and surface vehicles

Thank you for your attention to this important issue of BPL interference with other users of the radio spectrum.

Nickolaus E. Leggett

 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by WB8NUT on September 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
The only reason this is a threat is that too few amateurs are League members. I think we have about 700,000 hams and less than 200,000 are members of the ARRL. Terrible! Too many hams complain about the ARRL as being for CW, or against CW, or say QST is too technical, or not technical enough, or too many ads in QST, or because eQSL was rejected and they like it better than LOTW or complain that LOTW will charge for awards or that the ARRL is nothing more than a printing house. Hams can think of more reasons why they won't join the only organization that fights for our allocations on a daily basis. It's Bul _ _HIT that less than 1/3 of the hams are members paying for the ARRL to defend amateur radio while the other 2/3rds sit back and whine and complain and refuse to join. The do-nothings will really be complaining when we lose our allocations. It's less than $50 a year! - Join and help the ARRL help you. Stop being so darn cheap. Suck it up and join.
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KE4ZHN on September 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
As long as lawyers and money are involved, the amateur community is almost certain to get the shaft with this BPL thing. Big money interests have the power to get what they want by greasing the right palms, and no ARRL or any other political lightweight is going to stop it UNLESS they wield huge sums of money. Money buys everything in this political machine of ours. Right wrong or otherwise, if you got the bucks, you can shaft whoever you want in the USA. The only chance we have of fighting this bpl crap is if OTHER huge money interests and or other government interests stand to lose money, or are threatened by its implementation. While I respect the ARRL for taking on these corporate giants, Im afraid its like pitting a fly against an elephant. Our fight against bpl is very similiar to the gun vs anti gun crowd. The one who tosses the most money at the politicans gets what they want. If the NRA folded tomorrow, you can best believe that all the anti gun whiners would buy off the boys up in Washington to have them pass laws to take away our firearms. The only reason it hasnt yet happened, is because the NRA puts millions in the hands of legislatures to keep them from passing bills to take away the right to bear arms. Its sad to say it, but if you take away the money aspect of this country, the system would fall apart. Why do you think Bill Gates won his battle against uncle sam? Because he has billions to fight with! If he wasnt so powerful financially, he would have been beaten down like a sick dog. Its very sad that a country as great as ours has to hinge its entire political system on how many crooks you can buy up in Washington, but thats the way it is. Lobbying should be outlawed! Its nothing but legalised bribery. Wouldnt it be nice if you could simply hand a cop $20 to forget that traffic ticket? (in some places you can!) He would in most cases take you straight to jail if you tried, but its ok for congressmen and senators to do this on a daily basis with billions of dollars! If our forefathers who wrote the constitution could see whats going on up in Washington today, they would be rolling in their graves. Too many lawyers and crooks (actually one and the same) running the show.
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD5IR on September 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
All this really amounts too is a verification that most of the appointed folks in gov't positions today that were brought in by the Bush adm. are Nothing BUT Paid Lobbyists. They're doing the very same JOB while they're IN government as they were doing ...before being appointed....and as they Will Be doing when they Leave gov't service. They don't give A tinkers damn about Ham radio folks. Part 15 rules are about as useful to them as a role of WET toilet paper to a man in a Pay Crapper. We're going to get screwed folks because MONEY is what counts nowdays and nothing else will receive any significant response. Get out the Vasoline cause we're gonna get the Full Monty before this fight is over......s.kuteman...kd5ir
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KE0XL on September 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Here is a quick summary of what is going to happen:
NTIA report. It will be pro-BPL. The Bush White House will see to that. The NTIA is a re-hash of Nixon's Office of Telecommunications's Policy (OTP).
The NTIA and OTP are proven lapdogs of the White House.
Republicans will stay in control of the Senate and the House. No anti-BPL laws will make it out of
committee.
The Republican majority FCC will crack down on
non-patriot hams who distrupt BPI with RF power.

You could stop all of the above by voting the big "D"
in the next election.

I am a genetic big "D" and proud of it.
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by KE6I on September 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Is there anyone in the US congress, D or R, who has take a position on the BPL issue?
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by FJGH on October 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Unfortunately, no one can stop progress forever. This broadband over power line data network will have far reaching benefits for the general public. Why?? Look at the price for broadband service. It's way too high considering there is a glut of fiber. There is more buried fiber unused than you can count. But most of the network is owned by a small number of owners. They keep the price artificially high. Broadband over powerlines will add a totally new player and force broadband to decrease in price. It will eventually save the public $Billions.

That's why the arrl will not stop it. Hams literally owned it's HF bands for a century, you can't keep it forever.
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD7EFQ on October 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To: FJGH
As K1ZZ stated in his letter to FCC Commisioner Abernathy, BPL is a redundant, poorly performing, last mile service. It is NOT the wonder that the greedy corporations are pushing. And with the next real step in internet access being fiber optic, I think BPL would be a waste.
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD7EFQ on October 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I am also wondering if laws could be passed on the state, county and city / town level to prohibit BPL in individual communities. Many other laws on the state / Local level either stand side by side with federal laws, or the Federal govt. does not get involved (exp: Antenna restrictions & covenants with CC&R's.) If we cannot fight this on a federal level, maybe something can be done on a local level to keep BPL out of communities that vote not to have it. If local communities are educated on the actual ramifications of BPL to other services, it's doubtful everyone would want it in their communities. 73. T
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD7EFQ on October 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I also have another thought on FJGH's post. Since BPL is only a "last mile" service, not a direct link to the internet in itself, then it is not actually a competitive service. BPL will still have to have it's primary access service provided by one of the cable / fiber optic service providers for it's initial link. Therefore all you are really doing is adding another middleman to your internet access. Charges will be based upon the BPL providers costs and additionally, the costs that the Primary access providers charge the BPL companies. If anything, it will be more expensive, not competitively less expensive. 73. T
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by FJGH on October 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
In areas like Wyoming, Nevada, and other large open areas, no broadband company is going to run fiber any time soon. If there are power lines in any of these areas you can count on BPL. Keep in mind if BPL is implemented, it is going to evolve into a better network like any other network topology that has been invented. Others are not blind to this expectation.

Wishfull thinking and threats of disaster by hams isn't going to scare anybody. All these scare tactics are really going to cause those whom you want to listen to ignore you.

All the arguments by hams are obvious self benefiting dialog that everybody can see. Hams need to come up with something better.
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by FJGH on October 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
More info for your consideration are the plans to merge BPL as it is now proposed with microwave and / or satellite. BPL for now is a short run technology but linking BPL with satellite or microwave hubs solves a big problem.

Satellite and microwave technology now requires each individual user to have a dish or receiver which they have to install and maintain. The equipment is really not very good because it is made affordable.

For example, in a small and low populated area, if high quality sat or mw nodes are used with BPL to distribute data to the home, much better service is possible. There are many other designs possible and are being investigated.

I don't think those complaining about BPL know the whole story about what is planned or proposed for the long term. This realization is evidence that the fight now going on is not going to help hams defeat BPL.

The arrl's arguments really are not effective to those who see a bigger longer term picture.
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD5IR on October 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
You've completely missed the Boat FGJH. If there was No interference from BPL being carried on the power lines there would be NO interference from Hams ....about the issue. The fcc HAS to enforce part 15 rules for Hams just like it does for ALL other portions of the Radio Spectrum. Implicit with your comments is the idea that the Market benefit to the general Public of implementation of BPL is Justification for the Fcc completely ignoring the ham community is Assine to say the least. If , you think , we're gonna role over and die you're fulla crap my friend. This issue will unite the Ham community probably like nothing Ever has would be my guess. We will all bleed alot before this fight is over because if we loose we might as well just start sending E_MAILS to each other. s.kuteman , kd5ir
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD7EFQ on October 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To FJGH:
You have also forgotten about the NTIA. They regulate the Govt. HF spectrum and the FCC has to pay attention to them. Ed, W1RFI has looked at the type of testing they're doing, and it should show the same results as Ed's testing. Hopefully the NTIA will help put the kabosh on this. Here in Wyoming, the population isn't large enough to attract BPL marketability. 802.11 wireless is already available here and is more than enough for our modest population. Anyway, I've got a 1.5KW+ amp that I will use when I need to, and any close in BPL users near my QTH will not be online very long when I fire up the pair of 3CX800's. 73. T
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by FJGH on October 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
The people missing the boat are the companies with $billions to make because they don't care about part 15 rules. The fcc will change the rules to accomodate their decisions if needed.

History illustrates all kinds of fights over roads, airports, public education, taxes, power lines over their property, etc, etc,. You know the outcome over these issues.
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD7EFQ on October 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To FJGH:
Also, we already have way more fiber optics in the ground here in Wyoming than our population of <500,000 people will ever fill. New construction is already running bundled cables to new homes being built, with cable, phone, fiber, etc. all in one. Older homes could easily be tied in to nearby junction boxes already in place. There really is no need for BPL. It's being outdated every minute, before it even starts.
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by FJGH on October 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
kd7efq,

I hate to have to tell you this, but if you destroy the picture on your neighbors tv for any length of time with your amp, I assure you that you will eventually loose the right to use your amp.

If BPL is implemented, hams interfering with it will have the same problem. Hams will eventually loose if there is interference to BPL.

 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD7EFQ on October 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To FJGH:
You're assuming BPL is such a great thing (and frankly I wonder just who's side you're on. Do you own stock with the UPLC?)Given a choice between fiber and BPL, fiber wins hands down. If people have the choice, BPL loses. And if something better is available, the Billions to be made by BPL goes away. 73, T
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD7EFQ on October 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To FJGH:
If the Part 15 law stands, it's the LAW. Have you ever read the tag on a part 15 device? it says the device must not cause interference, and must accept any interference including that which may cause undesired operation. Also, I can filter out TVI for the most part, and televisions fall under the same part 15 rules I just mentioned. If a ham has a well engineered installation, and has done everything he can to eliminate interference, then the responsibility falls upon the user of the part 15 device. I do run proper grounding, and lowpass filters. It's licensed Vs. UNlicensed services. All the NTIA has to do is not recommend changes to part 15, and usually the FCC follows their recommendations. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. 73.
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by FJGH on October 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I feel sorry for all who are scared to death of BPL. You guys are arguing this subject as if its going to change the outcome. Nobody wants to loose an activity that they like. I lost interest in ham radio operating long ago.

The arrl has attepted to put the fear of god into you so you will try to fight PBL. Arguing semantics and legal technicalities (as if any of you are lawyers)may make you feel better but it won't change anything.

The fcc has made it clear it likes PBL at least in theory. All the assumptions that hams make about what is legal, what counts, what doesn't is really a big waste of your time, but it probably makes you feel better.

I hate to say it, but as individuals, I don't think you will determine the outcome either way, big money will.
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by KD7EFQ on October 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I'm so glad I dont wake up in the world everyday with such a closed minded, negative attitude. By the way, why is someone without an interest in ham radio even bothering to comment here, especially without signing on with a callsign. Must be a TROLL.
 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by FJGH on October 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Ham radio is filled with name callers that conduct themselves like a child when they can't have their way.
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by KD5IR on October 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
ham radio as a political entity maynot, at this juncture, look like it can find it's collective rearend ...but ultimately a federal judge is going to decide whether or not the FCC can arbitriarly abort part 15 rules and simply issue New reg's that facilitate a full blown entry of BPL into the market place. And, I think you're going to find that there will be very stiff opposition from some Dem. senators and maybe even some members of the house. Also, if a dem wins the prez. race BPL is going to find the political landscape rather Bumpy. This issue is FAR from being a done deal and i don't think that the FCC will beable to allow BPL to get started as the ARRL will surely file a suit in federal court. s.kuteman , kd5ir
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by KG6AMW on October 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Come on guys, all FJGH is doing is waving the stick and yelling go fetch. Don't bother responding to it. It gets its joy tormenting.

KG6AMW
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by AG4RQ on October 4, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
"This issue is FAR from being a done deal and i don't think that the FCC will beable to allow BPL to get started as the ARRL will surely file a suit in federal court."

I guarantee that the ARRL won't be alone. Read what NTIA sent as a comment to FCC's NOI 03-104. Read what some other entities commented to the FCC. There is a long list of links at:
http://www.arrl.org/~ehare/bpl/hyperlinks.html

The ARRL link to Cingular's comment is in error. You can read Cingular's comment at:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6514683408

After you read Cingular's comments, read Sprint's and Verizon's. I see the Cell providers with their vast economic resources blowing BPL out of the water if it ever takes off. Personally, I don't think NTIA will allow BPL in its raw form. Once NTIA's findings are forwarded to the FCC, it will be back to the drawing board for BPL. By the time BPL is refined enough to pass any interference tests, better technology will supercede it, most likely fiber. Even if BPL does pass once it is refined, who would care if there is either no interference or just minimal interference.

I am not worried about BPL. There are too many entities against it because of its potential interference.
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by W1RFI on October 9, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
> In areas like Wyoming, Nevada, and other large open
> areas, no broadband company is going to run fiber
> any time soon. If there are power lines in any of
> these areas you can count on BPL.

Those that have sought regulatory change have almost universally played the "rural" card. When all was done, they did what everyone else has done -- put their systems in place where the population density was high enough to make a buck.

With BPL, one has to either run fiber to the neighborhood, then literally use the power lines for the last mile or they have to install digital repeaters about every 2000 feet or so. I have deen both in the BPL trial areas I have visted. The claim that the infrastructure already exists is not true. The couplers onto the medium voltage lines have to be installed by crews qualified to work on the overhead lines; this will not be done by $10 per hour semi-trained technicians. One BPL manufacturer, on its web site, claimed that the couplers could be installed in 10 minutes. I have never seen a utility crew accomplish ANYTHING in 10 minutes...

> Wishfull thinking and threats of disaster by hams
> isn't going to scare anybody. All these scare
> tactics are really going to cause those whom you
> want to listen to ignore you.

The calculations that are based on electromagnetics and antenna theory predict rather well what signal levels will be heard from "legal" unlicensed systems that operate at FCC Part-15 levels. From a 30 uV/m field (at 30 meters distance), those signals are very strong, and only the strongest of shortwave signals will be stronger. This is not "scare tactics," this is science. ARRL has done these calculations, and followed up with practical measurements in BPL trial areas that confirm the interference levels. This is not "scare tactics" this is reality.

The filing by Aernautical Inc (ARINC) about having to abandon the use of a frequency at one of the facilities used to communicate with aircraft over the ocean was not scare tactics; it happened. And this was from a few Part-15 carrier-current devices that operate on a single frequency in a neighborhood over a mile from that site. Multiply that problem by simultaneous use of all frequencies over several MHz at a time and by building that system as large as an entire community -- or state. Do you think that ARINC made that filing to promote "scare tactics?"

See:

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6514683399

and judge for yourself.

The BBC and others are also showing a growing concern, and they, too, have done the necessary science. For an overview of this, see the ARRL article posted today:

http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2003/10/09/1/?nc=1

In that story, the ARRL points to papers and filings by the BBC, the Australian Communications Authority and others showing the same interference potential as ARRL has been describing. To you think the BBC and ACA wrote those findings to scare you, too?

See:

http://www.aca.gov.au/radcomm/frequency_planning/spps/0311spp.pdf
http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp067.html

> All the arguments by hams are obvious self
> benefiting dialog that everybody can see. Hams need
> to come up with something better.

I hope that everyone can see what hams have come up with. Just from the ARRL filings alone:

From the ARRL page at:

http://www.arrl.org/announce/regulatory/et03-104/reply-comments-index.html, see the description of the test methods ARRL used to generate the video. Read the comparison of the present FCC conducted emissions limits and the signal levels the BPL industry told the FCC that they intended to use, showing that the present implementation of BPL uses signals that have at least 70,000 times more power than the permitted conducted emissions limits for most products (and the BPL industry want to go to a level ten times that!) Look at the ARRL VOACAP propagation study that shows that a mere 10 dB increase in the levels of man-made noise will start to collapse HF from being a unique international resource to a band of limited regional capabiltity. Increasing the levels to Part 15 emissions limits virtually destroy the usefulness of HF as an international communications medium.

The calculations, the propagation programs and practical measurements in the field all reach the same conclusions -- BPL operating at the limits of Part 15 will severely impact all nearby communication on spectrum used by BPL. That is "something better" by my estimation, and that represents just the work of ARRL. Other amateurs and amateur societies have been doing similar good science worldwide.

Can you point to any of the industry studies that show anything better than their canned and unsubstantiated assurances that power lines don't radiate and that BPL signals will not cause interference? If you can, I will add the links to the ARRL BPL resource page:

http://www.arrl.org/bpl

See also http://www.arrl.org/~ehare/bpl/hyperlinks.html for a list of all of the industry, organizational and government filings.

The reports of harmful interference that have been sent to the FCC are documented at:

http://www.arrl.org/~ehare/bpl/hyperlinks.html#reports.

Ed Hare, W1RFI
ARRL Lab


 
ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nirvana  
by FJGH on October 10, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
If the pioneers who developed the forerunner of token ring and ethernet technology in the early 80's had the same mentality of hams with BPL, we would not have 2 Ghz network speed on copper wire that is now possible.

Hams, especially those connected with the ARRL, keep sending nothing but doomsday predictions. If BPL is as bad as you say, where is your alternative, modification to engineering principles, or something to try to accomodate all interests?

If hams do nothing more than use an all or nothing approach to the disaster they predict, you are going to loose everything if you do loose. Hams will not stop BPL if the right people are conviced it will work.

And for all you people who are writing and emailing your politicians, think again. Politicians keep very good records. All they have to do is look up all the people bombing them with correspondence and check their records and see who worked for their election / reelection and who gave $$$. Politicians, everyday, get requests from people who didn't know their name 10 minutes before they tried to contact them with their big problem. Politicians aren't going to jump out of their skin for non supporters.

And there are powerline communication devices already on the market and sold everyday. Hear any big complaints?
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by NI0C on October 10, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To FJGH:
You seem to miss the point. It is not our responsibility as radio amateurs to come up with alternative proposals to BPL or any other communications technology. We depend on the FCC regulations and enforcement of same to prevent interference to our designated frequencies. If the FCC caves in to commercial interests in this, then they will have literally sold us out. The FCC exists to prevent chaos in the electro-magnetic spectrum used for communications, and as such they are accountable to us! The FCC can and should just say no to commercial schemes that have the potential for interference to other services.
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by FJGH on October 10, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Alot of posters on this site sound like they are not far in years which is good for you. But most young people hang on to their noble self delusions concerning how this world works way too long.

The way tough jobs get done is not by telling everyone what their job should be or what is fair (which might benefit you if they did it), but get it done even if you don't think you should be doing it.

Those who want BPL will be doing what you think you shouldn't have to do.

Good Luck!
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by NI0C on October 10, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To suggest that amateurs provide free engineering to the commercial interests promoting BPL so they won't have to destroy our ham bands is ludicrous. It's like offering alternative employment to a burglar so he doesn't need to rob your house. Likewise, for the FCC to endorse BPL is akin to the police forcing you to provide free housing to the burglar.
 
RE: ARRL Rebukes FCC Commissioner's 'Broadband Nir  
by FJGH on October 10, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
N1OC

You are one weird puppy!
 
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