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Author Topic: LDS Emergency Radio "ERC" Nets  (Read 165975 times)

KS4VT

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RE: LDS Emergency Radio "ERC" Nets
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2015, 05:10:57 PM »

I am waiting to have someone tell me what the 'Business' the LDS is conducting. I need detailed descriptions of what exactly is the business is.

Rick  Wn2C

An initial description is right in the first post:

Their primary function is to keep church officials informed, checking on their churches, store houses and church members and then getting and organizing any help needed.

Feel free to read the rest of the posts yourself....
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KF7VXA

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RE: LDS Emergency Radio "ERC" Nets
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2015, 07:29:20 PM »

The other RED FLAG is in the LDS web site.
The LDS Church does not officially endorse the ERC radio network. Yet they are pushing it very hard in my area. They have weekend long training sessions at the LDS collage in Rexberg, ID, have numerous nets on numerous Amateur repeaters, GMRS repeaters and a H.F.net (all repeaters owned by LDS church members).
They take cover from the FCC by having their members conduct the activities, not the church itself.
In all fairness, the nets are run just like any Ares/Races net (at least in my area, we have seen non LDS members be kicked of frequency because they were not LDS in another area). That said, it times of an emergency, the true nature of the nets will come out as outlined in the statements of intent as have been presented in this thread.
Ares/Races nets now conducted on the LDS member owned repeaters may very well not be able to use the repeaters as the LDS ERC nets may or will take precedence.
In my opinion, if the LDS church wants to really do things correctly, they will get Part 90 equipment to handle church business and encourage their members to participate in Ares/Races nets. Ares/Races nets are designed to help everyone equally.
Not that a ERC net will not help the general public, I'm sure they will, but according to their statements, their main goal is the church first.
The Amateur service is to be used by any licensed Amateur for the public good (and many other uses) following the rules as outlined by the FCC. Amateur Radio is not for use of a business or organization for their needs.
It's pretty obvious what the LDS intent is to me.
John
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W8TET

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RE: LDS Emergency Radio "ERC" Nets
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2015, 05:55:06 PM »

John:

Please consider using shorter sentences and smaller paragraphs with an empty line in between the paragraphs to help split up your larger posts.

This makes them easier to read and absorb.

73's

Keith
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W8TET

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RE: LDS Emergency Radio "ERC" Nets
« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2015, 07:14:14 PM »

To All

I came across an older interesting article on the LDS, MARA and the FCC.

"PECUNIARY INTEREST"

Link is attached:

http://www.mara.net/pdf/12052008.pdf

Keith
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KF7VXA

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RE: LDS Emergency Radio "ERC" Nets
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2015, 09:42:38 PM »

This quote from the article says it all.

"Third, the proposal to have certain paid employees of "Facilitator" obtain Novice Class
operator licenses, become members of "Network", and use amateur station transmitters
owned by "Facilitator" for the transmission of messages would, in our judgment, violate
Section 97.113(b) because salaried employees would be receiving material
compensation, that is, a part of their salaries, for the messages transmitted by the
amateur stations."

The Bishop's Storehouses of the LDS church have amateur radio equipment in them.

The LDS Church has tried to distance themselves from the issue by stating that the LDS Church does not "Officially" sanction the ERC nets. They leave their members to act independently in the Church's interest. The Church may not be officially operating Amateur equipment themselves for the most part anyway, but indirectly, they are doing so.
The Bishops have Amateur radio equipment that may or may not have been purchased by the Church for the purpose of checking on church facilities and directing church business during an emergency.

You can put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig. The LDS church in my opinion should follow the letter of the law and get part 90 equipment for Church business and then encourage church members to join Ares/Races.

I doubt you'll see this happen though. In my opinion, the ERC nets do support the intent of the LDS church to use their members and the Amateur Radio Service for their own purposes.

All of this does not mean that the LDS Church will not help the general public; I have no doubt they will. Support for the public can be done through Ares/Races.

As for the one use of radio for Church business and the 99 other uses for Welfare Checks, most of the welfare checks will be checks on LDS Church members. Then there is still the one use of the Amateur radio for Church business that violates the FCC rules. I suspect there would be more than 1 message in a hundred about official Church business.

As to the help the "MARA" nets provided in some emergency's, LDS members could just be encouraged to be a part of the Ares/Races nets and accomplish the same thing and let the LDS church conduct their business on part 90 equipment.

In areas with few repeaters, a problem will arise when a Races net needs to use a repeater for their nets in an emergency
 and are told to get off the repeater by the LDS owner because their repeater is reserved for the ERC net.

In my area, Ares/Races nets and ERC nets are both run at different times on the same LDS member owed repeaters.
This is why our Radio club is putting up our own repeater. It will be used by Ares/Races only during an emergency. This is not to say that we would not pass legitimate traffic if asked to do so by a ERC net, we would.

I am encouraged by the LDS Church wanting it's members to be a part of Emergency or community event communications. I only wish they would do so as I have outlined before.

All of this is just my opinion and wishes. I have no axe to grind with the LDS Church. I do have different religious belief's than the LDS Church, but this has nothing to do with my original post or any other I've made. LDS Church members are and would be welcome to participate in Ares/Races nets once licensed and trained to Ares/Races standards.

Right now, the Incident Management courses I've had to complete;IS100,IS200,IS700 and IS800 are not required to be a part of a ERC net or a member of an ERC net.

If helping others is the real intent, than there is no need for a second net such as the ERC net or any other net by any other business or organization, Ares/Races nets are all that is needed and the support of LDS Church members would be welcomed.
More than one net in the area a repeater covers would just serve to confuse too many things.

John
« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 09:57:50 PM by KF7VXA »
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KS4VT

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RE: LDS Emergency Radio "ERC" Nets
« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2015, 06:57:01 AM »

To All

I came across an older interesting article on the LDS, MARA and the FCC.

"PECUNIARY INTEREST"

Link is attached:

http://www.mara.net/pdf/12052008.pdf

Keith

That is some really good information.  I woud really like to see the whole FCC response on their letterhead.
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KF7VXA

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RE: LDS Emergency Radio "ERC" Nets
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2015, 11:52:45 AM »

W8TET, do you have a copy of the original letter ?
John
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W8TET

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RE: LDS Emergency Radio "ERC" Nets
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2015, 04:44:45 PM »

John

I do not have a copy of the FCC letter.

I just found the PDF article of reference by a simple web search about the Mercury radio network formerly aligned with LDS.

Suggest you message --Dave Christensen, KD7UM  since it was originally posted by him as the PDF.
He is the original source.

He is a member of Eham.net

Keith
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KF7VXA

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RE: LDS Emergency Radio "ERC" Nets
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2015, 10:06:17 PM »

John

I do not have a copy of the FCC letter.

I just found the PDF article of reference by a simple web search about the Mercury radio network formerly aligned with LDS.

Suggest you message --Dave Christensen, KD7UM  since it was originally posted by him as the PDF.
He is the original source.

He is a member of Eham.net

Keith


Thanks, John
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NF7J

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RE: LDS Emergency Radio "ERC" Nets
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2015, 08:34:55 PM »

I believe that I may be able to provide some clarification to this discussion. As a volunteer, I lead the LDS Church’s Emergency Response Communications (ERC)program in the Idaho area. John (KF7VXA) I appreciate your comments that started out this discussion and I hope to offer some additional clarification. There have been some accurate comments about the LDS Church’s Emergency Response Communications program, and there have been some inaccurate assumptions made. Hopefully I can help everyone to understand a little better what this program is and what it isn't.

The ERC Program is an Official Program of the LDS Church
The ERC program is an official program of the Church of Jesus of Latter-Day Saints (LDS). The LDS Church has a very extensive humanitarian effort to provide emergency response to disasters around the world. The ERC is an emergency communications program to support these emergency response efforts.

No Church Business Has or Will Be Conducted Using Amateur Radio
The ERC program does not conduct any Church business using Amateur radio. The Church uses many communication modes for conducting Church business including the Public Switch Telephone Network, satellite communications, commercial radio services, etc. Amateur radio plays no part in any Church business operations or planned operations. The ERC program itself is not directly involved with any Church business or ecclesiastical work. The ERC program is strictly a humanitarian program to provide service and assistance to the communities in which we live. Not only will you never hear any Church business discussed on Amateur radio, you will also never hear any religious topics discussed on ERC radio nets.
 
The LDS Church Works with Many other Relief Organizations
The LDS Church including the ERC program works closely with civil authorities and other Churches through the Voluntary Organizations Active in Disaster (VOAD) organization.  The Southern Baptist Disaster Relief organization (SBDR) is also a great supporter of the VOAD organization and they do a LOT of great work. The LDS Church has Memorandums of Understanding with other relief organizations including the American Red Cross.

The LDS Church Provides Relief Supplies and Assistance around the World
In disasters such as Katrina, emergency relief supplies and food commodities from Church storehouses in the southeastern United States were delivered to Church meetinghouses serving as shelters and relief centers in the disaster area. LDS Church buildings are frequently made available to serve those in need in disasters or other local emergency situations. The ERC may be called upon to provide emergency communications to support such a community need in an emergency.

The American Red Cross and local governments in disaster affected areas frequently request assistance from the LDS Church to provide assistance such as family hygiene kits (soap, toothpaste, toothbrushes, combs, hand towels). In Katrina for example, thousands of families were forced out of their homes by flooding and wind damage. Tens of thousands of hygiene kits were pre-positioned in the Church’s southeast regional storehouses and then delivered immediately after the storm cleared along with other supplies and assistance. The ERC program has provided emergency communications assistance during Katrina and many other disasters.

The LDS ERC Program is Not just for Church Members
The ERC program welcomes everyone. You do not have to be a member of the LDS Church to be involved with the ERC program. We have several people who are very active with ERC nets and training that are not members of the Church. Some of our best ERC net control operators are not members of the Church. We try very hard to make everyone feel welcome and comfortable.  John, or anyone else, you are ALWAYS welcome. Any experience otherwise is contrary to the teachings of the LDS Church and the operations of the ERC program.

The ERC is More than Amateur Radio
The name of the program is the Emergency Response Communications program. The program uses any and all means of communication available including Internet technologies when available. It turns out that Amateur radio is one of our best emergency communications tools, but it is certainly not the only communications tool in our tool belt.

Summary
In summary, there is no Church business conducted by the ERC. Its purpose is to support emergency response efforts and to serve the communities in which we live – we serve everyone whether they are Church members or not, it doesn't matter. We are here to serve all. The LDS Church is very well organized and has a lot to provide in terms of disaster response. We desire to work with our communities, other faith-based organizations, and everyone else who may be involved in an emergency. We are all here to help and support each other.
 
Thanks for taking the time to read,
Kevin (NF7J)
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KF7VXA

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RE: LDS Emergency Radio "ERC" Nets
« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2015, 06:27:06 PM »

Thanks for your reply Keven.

A great deal of what you have posted is true. That said, without extensive part 90 equipment (except on campus), which there is little if any in our area owned and licensed to the LDS Church, amateur radio is it.
I've already said I have not noted any religious content or church business conducted on the ERC net. Without part 90 equipment, I cannot see how business type comms will not be exchanged during an emergency on amateur radio as part 90 equipment is not out in the field, mobile or in church stakes.

Here is a quote from the LDS web site--https://www.lds.org/topics/emergency-preparedness/guidelines-for-emergency-communication?lang=eng. The links that I referred to earlier on the LDS web site about the church not officially endorsing the ERC radio are no longer on the web site. The web site's links has been changed and I can no longer access the official stance on the ERC nets.
You can also note that Amateur nets are being conducted from the store houses which are church property and church business.

I have no doubt that the LDS church has helped many in times of need through amateur radio and will continue to do so. Their help in times of need is a great asset and to be complimented.

The LDS church does not have part 90 equipment in place to any large degree to conduct local church business. At the ERC training in Rexburg, I was told the main reason for the LDS nets was to keep elders informed, which included damage to church facilities and other church business. Emergency messages, needs for supplies and other emergency comms needed and approved for transmission on amateur radio are also included. Damage to a church building is not an emergency. If people are in the building and hurt, then it's an emergency. Reporting on damage to church property is considered to be business related. It was one of the main things that was to be reported.
Note that the equipment included in the emergency equipment of the Baptist Church includes part 90 equipment. I have seen no part 90 equipment available for use that covers the large area in which I live. While the LDS Church mentions things such as cell phones, telephone, the net and sat phones, these will be the first thing to go down except for sat phones in an emergency.

The ERC relies on Amateur radio for comms when other forms of communication are down. Yes they do have satellite coms between major locations, but I'm not sure if they are two way or not.

ERC does not require ICS training as required for Races. Local repeaters are owned by church members. I have yet to hear which repeaters will be designated for ERC nets. Once an emergency presents it's self, it may be too late for the Ares/Races groups who may be counting on those repeaters being available. Right now both ERC and Ares/Races nets are conducted on my local repeater at different times.
If it hits the fan, which group will be on the repeater ?

Lastly, while there is a core group who knows how to conduct emergency communications, the vast majority of LDS church members who have been licensed in my area have little if any real world experience in emergency comms.
Most have just got their Tech or GMRS license and have no training in ICS. With all of the numbers of amateurs trained by the LDS church, only a small percentage participate in Ares/Races. They do conduct some training after their nets, but most is very basic and gives their members no real world training. The Baptist Church net require at least 3 years as an amateur radio operator and uses experienced ham radio operators. Most of the ERC net has no training other than checking into the weekly net.

I got a some what terse E Mail from one of the local leaders of the local ERC group wondering why I would make such a post. The answer is that I see some problems with the way the ERC group operates. My hope is that they might be corrected. I'm glad to see so many who want to get involved in Amateur radio. I'd just like to see to it that part 90 equipment is bought, licensed and deployed for church business, which repeaters are to be used in an emergency for ERC business (something people in other area should be aware of) and that there is proper training including ICS training as all emergency comms are based on the Incident Command System today.

As I told the person who e mailed me, if my church was doing the same as the ERC, I'd have the same issues. It's not an attack on the LDS Church. It's about following FCC rules. So far they have, but I still have doubts in a large emergency due to normal comms being down and amateur radio being the only comms left with the absence of part 90 equipment. Though some might know not to conduct any church business, the vast majority have no idea what the limits are.

I think the people who have volunteered their time and money to be a part of the ERC are a great bunch of people. There are many well trained people and many more who need additional training. I'm glad to see training is on going, but would like to see the ICS training be a requirement. I've expressed my concerns and hope that maybe the LDS Church will get more part 90 equipment as the Red Cross, Baptist Church and other organizations have done.
I know part of checking on church stakes could be for shelter if needed, but members should also be instructed to check on other facilities besides the stakes as just the LDS population in most areas here would overflow most LDS Stakes. If housing people is not a major concern, then just checking for property damage would fall under the guise of business.

I'm glad to see this has not turned into a bashing session as this can apply to any organization doing emergency radio service. I think the intent is good and the LDS church has helped many thousands of people in time of trouble. Maybe just some fine tuning  ;)

John

P.S. I got another E Mail from the same person who has told me I'm still invited to participate in the ERC nets. I appreciate that, and I think he realizes it was nothing against the LDS Church or himself. He was concerned the post might get negative comments against the LDS Church, which to the credit to all who posted, it did not, nor should it have. It's just a few items I have exception with and religion has zero to do with that.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 08:26:05 PM by KF7VXA »
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KQ4YA

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RE: LDS Emergency Radio "ERC" Nets
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2015, 11:24:47 AM »

I read through this long string of postings with fascination. It strikes me that no one doubts that the LDS group is doing good, there's agreement that there's no evangelizing.

If the group is violating any FCC rules then the FCC at least has not acted. And - unlike violations that most of us see each day - there are no charges of anything malicious, anything that is hurting people or other operators.

With so many legitimate problems on the air, seems like this one would be a low priority problem - if it is a problem.

I am not a member of the church, or any other church for that matter. I am not a cheerleader for (or against) that religion. It's just that I can't understand why this particular group, since it does no harm and in fact does good, rises to the top as a problem for so many people.
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N3HFS

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RE: LDS Emergency Radio "ERC" Nets
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2015, 12:43:31 PM »

I, too, have worked my way through this entire thread, and regardless of the business, church, or organization that I plug in to this series of complaints, I come up with the following opinions.  Note that I am not Mormon, nor do I have any family members or friends that I am aware of that are members of that church or faith.
Without part 90 equipment, I cannot see how business type comms will not be exchanged during an emergency on amateur radio as part 90 equipment is not out in the field, mobile or in church stakes.
I see this as a problem for many entities, not just the LDS.  How will any business, church, etc communicate in an emergency when routine methods such as telephone and email are not available?  Procuring Part 90 equipment and licenses solely for emergency use sounds ridiculous to me, and is certainly not good spectrum management.
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You can also note that Amateur nets are being conducted from the store houses which are church property and church business.
Clubs I have belonged to in the past have had stations located in community colleges, a science museum, and a corporate business headquarters.  Is this wrong?
Quote
The LDS church does not have part 90 equipment in place to any large degree to conduct local church business. At the ERC training in Rexburg, I was told the main reason for the LDS nets was to keep elders informed, which included damage to church facilities and other church business. Emergency messages, needs for supplies and other emergency comms needed and approved for transmission on amateur radio are also included. Damage to a church building is not an emergency. If people are in the building and hurt, then it's an emergency. Reporting on damage to church property is considered to be business related. It was one of the main things that was to be reported.
I would argue that reporting on damage to any building during an emergency that caused or contributed to the damage would be acceptable, particularly during an emergency that caused outages for normal communications.  Again, not having Part 90 equipment during an emergency when it's not used or needed during non-emergency times is a lame argument.
Quote
Local repeaters are owned by church members. I have yet to hear which repeaters will be designated for ERC nets. Once an emergency presents it's self, it may be too late for the Ares/Races groups who may be counting on those repeaters being available. Right now both ERC and Ares/Races nets are conducted on my local repeater at different times.
If it hits the fan, which group will be on the repeater ?
This would be where a Memorandum of Understanding or a similar mutually accepted agreement would be useful.  If ARES/RACES can't rely on someone else's repeater during an emergency, it's probably time to get their own repeater or figure out alternative channels (such as simplex).
Quote
Lastly, while there is a core group who knows how to conduct emergency communications, the vast majority of LDS church members who have been licensed in my area have little if any real world experience in emergency comms.
Most have just got their Tech or GMRS license and have no training in ICS. With all of the numbers of amateurs trained by the LDS church, only a small percentage participate in Ares/Races. They do conduct some training after their nets, but most is very basic and gives their members no real world training. The Baptist Church net require at least 3 years as an amateur radio operator and uses experienced ham radio operators. Most of the ERC net has no training other than checking into the weekly net.
Isn't it up to each organization to set standards for its participant?  Having had "little is any real world experience in emergency comms" is exactly what such nets address, isn't it?  Getting such experience through actual emergencies is not the way to start!

To sum this up, unless the LDS is conducting bona-fide, non-Ham-compatible business on the air regularly (including during regular drills where hypothetical reports could be communicated instead), I'm just not seeing a problem here.
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K4PIH

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RE: LDS Emergency Radio "ERC" Nets
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2015, 06:51:38 AM »

Late to the topic. I have no issues with LDS as a church, but if they are using amateur radio to contact storage facilities, counting participation in a radio network of LDS stations, that in itself is conducting church business and they should get a commercial license. If other church organizations do so, so can LDS. They are getting a free ride under the auspices of "community disaster planning". They have non-profit status but are using that status as a shield to conduct church business. I'll bet they list all the radio equipment and supporting infrastructure in their taxes as exempt.

I think think the FCC needs to step in and correct the issue.
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K7KNX

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RE: LDS Emergency Radio "ERC" Nets
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2015, 09:43:36 PM »

Can someone please explain the specific mention of ERC frequencies and repeaters, including Stake houses, Store houses etc? All mentioned in the official Idaho ARES Guidebook? Not to mention use of the official logo of a state agency??


https://www.idahoares.info/_downloads/guides/ARES%20Member%20Guidebook.pdf
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