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Author Topic: Navy marine Corp Mars ends September 30 2015  (Read 135509 times)

W6EM

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RE: Navy marine Corp Mars ends September 30 2015
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2015, 04:58:47 PM »

The FCC Katrina Report is a good read, but the serious shortcomings were mainly two: Lack of Interoperability and failure (in concept) of public safety trunked systems.

Where MARS could assist in lack of Interoperability, so too could the average ham.  I went to great lengths to suggest a portion of the VHF spectrum be dedicated for interoperability purposes.  The FCC was already underway with its plans to move public safety out of VHF and UHF into the new 700MHz trunked allocation.  So, it (IMO) purposely suppressed the details of the New Orleans trunked system failure and the vulnerability of the trunking concept to single point failures in the final Katrina report.  And, of course, along with that it wanted no part of a proposal (mine) to create a VHF segment to allow military VHF, public safety, amateur, CAP and utility assets to intercommunicate.  A sort of VHF version of SHARES.

The result is, since Katrina, further migration of public safety from robust conventional or P25 via repeaters to single-point vulnerable trunking.

Perhaps there will be a need for MARS to assist in bridging the lost Internet in the future.  Surely, with the wider implementation of trunked systems, there will be more public safety radio failures following future major disasters.  That lesson was learned from Katrina, but ignored on purpose.
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WD8DBY

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RE: Navy marine Corp Mars ends September 30 2015
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2015, 06:50:14 PM »


[/quote]

And how to we find the net freqs. & times?
[/quote]

If there are other questions that Navy members have about the process or desire to receive info on the Region/state nets and frequencies, they should contact:

Paul English, Army MARS Program Manager, paul.a.english.civ@mail.mil
or
Dave Stapchuk, Chief AF MARS, david.stapchuk2@us.af.mil   
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WA1ANB

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RE: Navy marine Corp Mars ends September 30 2015
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2015, 04:30:37 AM »

I agree with W6EM, the the military should provide modern equipment to MARS members for ALE, Pactor 3 & other advanced data modes, and encryption software.

Bill WA1ANB/NNN0KBO
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W9ADY

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RE: Navy marine Corp Mars ends September 30 2015
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2015, 06:14:07 AM »



And how to we find the net freqs. & times?
[/quote]

If there are other questions that Navy members have about the process or desire to receive info on the Region/state nets and frequencies, they should contact:

Paul English, Army MARS Program Manager, paul.a.english.civ@mail.mil
or
Dave Stapchuk, Chief AF MARS, david.stapchuk2@us.af.mil   
[/quote]

Thank you
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W6EM

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RE: Navy marine Corp Mars ends September 30 2015
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2015, 11:39:57 AM »

For an institution dedicated to communicating, MARS has long suffered from misunderstanding and misinformation. This not only shows in these blogs. I suspect miscommunication goes a long way to explaining the demise of Navy-Marine Corps MARS in the first place.
     There’s no better example of “poor propagation conditions” than the member who quit Army MARS because social chatter was prohibited on the networks.
    He didn’t get the point that military frequencies are designed for war-fighting, not rag-chewing.  But neither did the masters of MARS understand that our nets are the only place where widely-dispersed members can become acquainted and build the relationships so important to smooth operating. Unlike the active army, we don’t have daily meeting places like squad rooms and mess halls and service clubs.
    It seems to me the ill feeling being expressed over the NMCM shutdown needs to be addressed head-on by the two surviving MARS branches. Transparency is particularly in order while Navy MARS members are considering transfer,
     Of course, that’s just my personal opinion. As a former public affairs staffer I’m probably as much to blame as anyone if miscommunications persist. So here is some history on the membership loss mentioned in previous postings—again, personal opinion.
     Hurricane Katrina revealed deficiencies in most areas of response and one result was government-wide adoption of the National Incident Management System.  Reacting, ,ARMARS conducted a mandatory all-members retraining program. It was arduous and some failed to complete it, forfeiting membership.
    Army MARS imposed the requirement for a general class license so applicants wouldn’t have to be trained on HF radio and would he familiar with the equipment. It was as simple as that. There was a drop-off of members unwilling to take the general exam.
        Then came the terrorist and cyber threats and the DoD’s sudden awareness that MARS is the only nationwide communications system not dependent on vulnerable infrastructure.
   Not only did army-style net discipline become essential; to achieve seamless connectivity with the DOD communications system, MARS stations had to adopt an irksome military digital mode PLUS encryption technology).  Extended national communications drills became routine. (At my age, I well understand why a number of members were reluctant to start learning all over again!)
       But the largest drop of all was illusory:  It was discovered that a faulty records system had failed to subtract retired or deceased members from the roster while adding new ones over a period of years. (No, headquarters did not issue a news release on that discovery).
      The point, of course, is that in less than a decade MARS has grown from a diminished remnant of the MARSgram era to a major player in national survival planning. It is indeed more challenging to be a member. Some of us have found it rewarding as never before.

Sorry, Bill, but somehow I can’t believe that 80% of your database is persiflage.  If it was, then Akima contractors maybe didn’t do all they were paid to.  Is the DoD IG aware of the shortcomings of the database and the funds spent to maintain it?

Somehow, I could believe that maybe 10 percent of the database consisted of former member information.  But, 80% (5000 all the way down to 1000) seems unbelievable.

So, a rational conclusion would be not an 80% attrition from Army MARS, but maybe 70% over the near distant past.  You didn’t explain the high attrition of new members-in-training.  What’s that all about?

Sure, I can understand needing some HF knowledge and experience which Techs don’t have.  But, they must not have amounted to all that many.  Of course, then again, they could have practiced with the modes on VHF simplex and repeaters and maybe some higher class licensed members could have spent some time on nets training them.  VHF is an important part of the spectrum.  All of the branches still use it in field communications.  (During Katrina, a ham with a 2 meter HT was able to talk with a Coast Guard helo because his HT was modified to transmit outside the 2 meter band).  Something that was key to my proposal to the FCC for a VHF Interoperability segment.

The idea of forcing MARS members to take (the assumed FEMA Level 1 and up) courses really is pathetic.  How about sending them all to the basic FBI academy for law enforcement certification too?  Geesh.  All of the procedural training you guys had wasn't good enough?

It seems to me that the most important and successful activity MARS has right now is SHARES.  It should be emulated on VHF spectrum as well.  Perhaps MARS can accomplish this in consort with CAP, since both share the same 2 meter-adjacent allocation.  NTIA holds the cards for such spectrum anyway.  If they were to concur with such a use, the FCC would then likely approve it.

73.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 11:46:47 AM by W6EM »
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KT4WO

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RE: Navy marine Corp Mars ends September 30 2015
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2015, 01:17:42 PM »

RE: "It is official"


Wow.... Didn't see this coming...
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N0OFG

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RE: Navy marine Corp Mars ends September 30 2015
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2015, 07:38:13 PM »

FWIW CAP is in a multiyear process of rebuilding its HF (ALE, Hf mail, etc) capabilities not unlike how they did with their NTIA narrowband FM a few years back and are actively looking for folks who want to serve as communicators.

I'm certain that those who don't want to migrate to AF or ARMY MARS can find a home running nets, moving traffic and training other members on how to properly operate within a military radio network. The latter is desperately needed as even most CAP operators aren't familiar with ACP125, which is what we're supposed to be running nets by.
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N3ZH

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RE: Navy marine Corp Mars ends September 30 2015
« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2015, 09:06:03 AM »

It seems strange that CAP volunteers must pay dues.
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W3JKS

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RE: Navy marine Corp Mars ends September 30 2015
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2015, 10:49:01 AM »

It seems strange that CAP volunteers must pay dues.

CAP is actually a non-profit corporation; from their website:

On July 1, 1946, President Harry Truman signed Public Law 476 incorporating Civil Air Patrol as a benevolent, nonprofit organization.  On May 26, 1948, Congress passed Public Law 557 permanently establishing Civil Air Patrol as the auxiliary of the new U.S. Air Force. 

I belonged to the Delaware Wing for a couple of years, but their communications program didn't do anything for me...  Although I was the Wing Communications Engineer for a while, I did no engineering because everything came down from HQ in the form of edicts. 
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N4JQQ

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RE: Navy marine Corp Mars ends September 30 2015
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2015, 05:59:52 PM »

I'm a Navy MARS member in TN.  We have a great organization and a great state director.  I hate to see MARS leave the served agencies hanging.  Their message stated without question that there would be no more served agencies.  I personally think this is a mistake but I'm not in charge.  Many of these agencies have invested money and time in the WL2K infrastructure based on representations that were made to them by the MARS organization.  Just my opinion.  One thing I do find very strange about Army MARS is their penchant for OPSEC yet they ask you to provide permission for your name and photo to be published in social media on their application.  In fact, you would be excoriated on their nets for giving your name or calling someone by their name yet you can go to their FB page and see the same information.  This seems to fly in the face of recent DOD advisories to personnel NOT to identify themselves as being a military member in their social media.  Kind of silly don't you think?

Now, to criticize my own service, it is sad to see that the current generation of Navy leadership seems to have forgotten the countless hours that MARS operators provided for free to provide messages from home, phone patches, etc.  I realize that technology has changed and it is a great thing that serving sailors and marines are able to email home, Skype, etc.  We can't live in the past but I still think the need for HF is there for the Navy.

Finally, the ARRL article that is on-line, which quoted an official who didn't want to be named (read ARMY MARS), that the Army had boots on the ground, etc., Navy MARS was land-locked, etc., makes no sense whatsoever.  A big bunch of hooey, self-serving and insulting.

There is more driving this than just some blue-suiter.  You can take my inference however you choose. 

Steve, N4JQQ/NNN0QCJ
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N4JQQ

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RE: Navy marine Corp Mars ends September 30 2015
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2015, 06:01:13 PM »

Correction:  Their message should refer to Army MARS.
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W6EM

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RE: Navy marine Corp Mars ends September 30 2015
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2015, 07:46:54 PM »

NNN0QCJ/N4JQQ, Steve:

Thank you for your service and comments that tell it like it is.

I’m not a current MARS member, but I was insensed, as you were, by the ARRL Letter announcement.  

Especially by the boastful and factually inaccurate quote from the “unnamed” MARS source.  In fact, so much so that I sat down and wrote a two page letter to the Deputy Secretary of Defense and mailed it on Armed Forces Day, last Saturday.  While I don’t think it would be right to share it here, suffice it to say that I said most of what I have so far in this thread.  I stressed to him that MARS should now be consolidated as one organization to allow NMC MARS and its leadership and hierarchy to be equitably included in a consolidated organization at all levels, including state and regional.

I provided examples of why Army MARS should not become the default lead of any combined program.  And, the ARRL Letter quote was one of them.


« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 07:49:05 PM by W6EM »
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NA4IT

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RE: Navy marine Corp Mars ends September 30 2015
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2015, 07:01:19 AM »

I'm a Navy MARS member in TN.  We have a great organization and a great state director.  I hate to see MARS leave the served agencies hanging.  Their message stated without question that there would be no more served agencies.  I personally think this is a mistake but I'm not in charge.  Many of these agencies have invested money and time in the WL2K infrastructure based on representations that were made to them by the MARS organization.....

Steve, N4JQQ/NNN0QCJ

I was told something would be done so that the served agencies would retain MARS capability. Steve, have you heard different?
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N4JQQ

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RE: Navy marine Corp Mars ends September 30 2015
« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2015, 07:20:41 AM »

Well, Army says they will serve no more civil agencies and it appears that Air Force is going to do exactly what Army plans for them.  Hopefully something will happen to keep all of us from looking like fools to all the various agencies that had representations made to them.  There are a LOT of them here in TN.
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WD8DBY

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RE: Navy marine Corp Mars ends September 30 2015
« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2015, 08:58:56 PM »

Well, Army says they will serve no more civil agencies and it appears that Air Force is going to do exactly what Army plans for them.  Hopefully something will happen to keep all of us from looking like fools to all the various agencies that had representations made to them.  There are a LOT of them here in TN.

The above quotation is not quite accurate.  In attempts to clear the air, I invite you to read the below publicly available document:
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/302518p.pdf

This document defines how the Department of Defense handles civil agency requests for support to civil authorities...otherwise known as Defense Support of Civil Authorities (DSCA).  Contained in this document are very specific procedures that must be followed.

What is not mentioned in this document is MARS...that, however, does not mean that the MARS Services can ignore the DSCA process spelled out in 3025.18.  To bridge this gap, Army MARS wrote a draft civil support plan that attempts to translate DODD 3025.18 requirements into a set of guidelines for how MARS can continue to provide DSCA but that also follows the intent of 3025.18.  This draft document is a work in progress that still requires a full legal review as well as review by the Services and Combatant Commands.

The requirement to follow DSCA procedures defined in 3025.18 is not a requirement that Army MARS is pushing, it is a Department of Defense requirement that both Army and Air Force MARS must follow.

Paul   
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