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Author Topic: In Defense of MARS  (Read 24420 times)

W6EM

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In Defense of MARS
« on: August 28, 2015, 05:53:21 PM »

A couple of weeks ago, an eHam front page link appeared announcing a Rockwell Collins’ proposal to offer an HF for-fee network service to local and state governments.

Virtually the same services that present-day MARS offers to the same clients.  MARS offers HF messaging and linking at no cost to those served.  If the Collins service materializes, it would compete with and perhaps replace MARS.  And, most importantly, it will cost those served probably a great deal for the service.  And, who would ultimately pay for it?  We would, as taxpayers.

While I don’t know the ins and outs of today’s MARS since I’m no longer a member, it sure seems to me a shame if they get away with pushing you all aside.  Perhaps some of you have or will take action in defense of your activities through your hierarchy.  There are important activities such as SHARES that might be compromised if Collins succeeds in setting up such a program.  If nothing else, the likelihood of interference at a time of great need would be much greater since they would be using HF spectrum and perhaps close to MARS allocations.

Eisenhower once said: “Beware of the Military-Industrial Complex.”  In this case Collins may just use its Congressional lobby in Washington to influence the Pentagon to replace you with their service: at a greater cost.  While it’s one thing to compete amongst yourselves, it’s quite another to have a for-profit entity replace you.

If you didn’t see the thread or otherwise hear about it, here is the link to the eHam thread:
http://www.eham.net/articles/35166


 
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W1MSG

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RE: In Defense of MARS
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2015, 10:44:05 AM »

Actually MARS does not provide this service. This is for Civilian / Local Govt entities where as MARS is a Military support entity per their own mission statements. At times they may be requested to help outside of their realm.

This likely will compete with ARES more than MARS. Liability is now the big catch phrase. No one is allowed in our Communication center due to sensitive info that could be viewed on the multitude of computer screens, the EOC operations, when set up, is now in a Conference room to keep any liability issues from occurring. You must either be a dispatcher or LEO to even enter into the main station, with the conference room and lobby being the exception.

I was a member of MARS for a very short period of time and found it really had no purpose where I am located. As far as ARES we don't use them or any other Volunteer programs and have our own back ups.

I am not saying ARES is not needed elsewhere, but in New England more and more Dept's are shying away from Volunteers due to liability issues. 
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N9VMO

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RE: In Defense of MARS
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2015, 11:30:10 AM »

Actually MARS does not provide this service. This is for Civilian / Local Govt entities where as MARS is a Military support entity per their own mission statements. At times they may be requested to help outside of their realm.

This likely will compete with ARES more than MARS. Liability is now the big catch phrase. No one is allowed in our Communication center due to sensitive info that could be viewed on the multitude of computer screens, the EOC operations, when set up, is now in a Conference room to keep any liability issues from occurring. You must either be a dispatcher or LEO to even enter into the main station, with the conference room and lobby being the exception.

I was a member of MARS for a very short period of time and found it really had no purpose where I am located. As far as ARES we don't use them or any other Volunteer programs and have our own back ups.

I am not saying ARES is not needed elsewhere, but in New England more and more Dept's are shying away from Volunteers due to liability issues. 

[rant] And because of the department's concerns over liability issues, when the SHTF, they won't have the volunteers available because the department's have turned their collective backs on them and said "we don't want you".  Then where will they be???  Without comms, that's where.  I'm not saying that all ARES/RACES members will do that, but they won't have as many volunteers as they could have.

How many times in the past during emergencies have we seen public service comms go down or are degraded due to whatever reason and the departments have had to call on ham radio to fill in to either fully support or just to fill communications gaps?  Let's start counting:

  • - 9/11
    - Katrina
    - Sandy
    - ANY major hurricane that has hit our shores for that matter
    - 2014/2015 winter's blizzards

There are just 5 instances and I am still half asleep.  I'm sure that we all can come up with more.

And the idea of backups is all fine and dandy, but how often do the departments practice and exercise those backups?  How often is the equipment checked out to make sure that it still works?  Do the departments have a backup for the backup?
[/rant]
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W6EM

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RE: In Defense of MARS
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2015, 07:58:07 PM »

....There are just 5 instances and I am still half asleep.  I'm sure that we all can come up with more.

Add Hurricane Charley to the list.  The Port Charlotte, FL PD asked hams for help to set up an old UHF system as their main radio system was unuseable.
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ND6M

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RE: In Defense of MARS
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2015, 07:26:28 AM »

....There are just 5 instances and I am still half asleep.  I'm sure that we all can come up with more.

Add Hurricane Charley to the list.  The Port Charlotte, FL PD asked hams for help to set up an old UHF system as their main radio system was unuseable.

err, ya might wanna check your facts.

I live in P.C. we don't even have a police dept. ;)

there were some Satern (salvation Army) comms over the undamaged W4DUX repeater.
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W1MSG

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RE: In Defense of MARS
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2015, 07:30:36 AM »

Well I can only speak but what is happening locally to me or things that I have seen first hand such as Katrina, since I was deployed there to provide additional LEO services.

I will say the HAM radio folks I did see at Katrina did a Great job reporting Shelter levels, but they were using commercial gear on other than the HAM Bands. On my 3rd day there, right after the storm cleared my cell was in fact working in about 80% of area we were clearing and searching houses.
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N1EN

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RE: In Defense of MARS
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2015, 09:19:26 AM »

I will say the HAM radio folks I did see at Katrina did a Great job reporting Shelter levels, but they were using commercial gear on other than the HAM Bands. On my 3rd day there, right after the storm cleared my cell was in fact working in about 80% of area we were clearing and searching houses.

It's probably worth mentioning again that the AUXCOM/AEC model that seems to be slowly rolling out is that volunteer communicators would use Part 95 and/or Part 97 services as sandboxes to learn/practice communications skills and develop other talents that would assist COML/COMT's, but in an actual incident they'd use whatever radio was put in their hand -- probably Part 90, but Part 95/97 if insufficient Part 90 resources are available.

As to where MARS fits in that model...given how concerned the powers that be are with operation and information security these days, isn't it entirely possible that a still-evolving role might actually exist, but just not be widely discussed?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 09:22:10 AM by N1EN »
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W1MSG

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RE: In Defense of MARS
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2015, 05:26:24 PM »

I will say the HAM radio folks I did see at Katrina did a Great job reporting Shelter levels, but they were using commercial gear on other than the HAM Bands. On my 3rd day there, right after the storm cleared my cell was in fact working in about 80% of area we were clearing and searching houses.

It's probably worth mentioning again that the AUXCOM/AEC model that seems to be slowly rolling out is that volunteer communicators would use Part 95 and/or Part 97 services as sandboxes to learn/practice communications skills and develop other talents that would assist COML/COMT's, but in an actual incident they'd use whatever radio was put in their hand -- probably Part 90, but Part 95/97 if insufficient Part 90 resources are available.

As to where MARS fits in that model...given how concerned the powers that be are with operation and information security these days, isn't it entirely possible that a still-evolving role might actually exist, but just not be widely discussed?

Thats pretty doubtful, not sure what evolving roles might be in regards to their primary mission, supporting the Military. Technology the way it is right now its really not needed. Even back in 2007 I could sit in my truck, in Iraq,  and have a text chat with another back in the US.
If you mean the powers that be in the MARS realm, they may be jockeying for position to keep a cushy GS job and any security type stuff requires clearances and that is something Volunteers will never have.

I think MARS shot themselves in the foot when they started making arrangements with civilian entities and civilian Govt agencies. Again just my 2 cents worth. Let it go with Dignity into the Military History Books instead of trying to reinvent it into something it was never meant to be.

Maybe someone should be beating up FEMA to start up a Volunteer Communications group at the Federal Level...

73

Craig 
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N1EN

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RE: In Defense of MARS
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2015, 11:21:19 PM »

As to where MARS fits in that model...given how concerned the powers that be are with operation and information security these days, isn't it entirely possible that a still-evolving role might actually exist, but just not be widely discussed?

Thats pretty doubtful, not sure what evolving roles might be in regards to their primary mission, supporting the Military. Technology the way it is right now its really not needed. Even back in 2007 I could sit in my truck, in Iraq,  and have a text chat with another back in the US.

I don't disagree that advancements in technology leave MARS' prior role of routing MARSgrams and phone patches less needed these days.   But it seems from other public discussion that MARS was bit by the emcomm bug awhile back.

Does the military have any duties in the event of a domestic disaster?  If so, does it have unlimited resources at its disposal to respond?  If the answers are "yes" and "no" respectively, perhaps that opens the door to some kind of possibility for evolution.

Given the nature of military concerns when it comes to capabilities and planning, I wouldn't be surprised if the details of any evolution might not be readily apparent to those of us who are just poking around the interwebs.
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W1MSG

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RE: In Defense of MARS
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2015, 05:54:52 AM »

As to where MARS fits in that model...given how concerned the powers that be are with operation and information security these days, isn't it entirely possible that a still-evolving role might actually exist, but just not be widely discussed?

Thats pretty doubtful, not sure what evolving roles might be in regards to their primary mission, supporting the Military. Technology the way it is right now its really not needed. Even back in 2007 I could sit in my truck, in Iraq,  and have a text chat with another back in the US.

I don't disagree that advancements in technology leave MARS' prior role of routing MARSgrams and phone patches less needed these days.   But it seems from other public discussion that MARS was bit by the emcomm bug awhile back.

Does the military have any duties in the event of a domestic disaster?  If so, does it have unlimited resources at its disposal to respond?  If the answers are "yes" and "no" respectively, perhaps that opens the door to some kind of possibility for evolution.

Given the nature of military concerns when it comes to capabilities and planning, I wouldn't be surprised if the details of any evolution might not be readily apparent to those of us who are just poking around the interwebs.

Not sure how they ever got into the EMCOMM thing as its not part of their Mission. There is one small blurb that says if requested they could help, not go out and issue callsigns to Hospitals (someone posted that in another thread)  and make contracts to serve Agencies outside the military.

The Military ( not National Guard ) has no duty to respond to Domestic Disasters unless activated by the President, as was the case in Katrina. Unlimited resources , well the 82nd Airborne can pack up and be any where in the world in 18 hrs, so Yes .. National Guard can be deployed by the Governor of the state, but have limited resources, again that falls on State Govt outside the Federal Military realm.

I think you are grasping at straws when it comes to evolving, where would they fit in? It won't be in any classified programs for sure. The only actual use I have heard of is the occasional phone patch for Aircrews.

I know I sound like a Negative Nancy but it is what it is. I gave MARS a try before I retired in 2011 did the training and got on a few nets. But in reality I decided it wasn't for me. Procedures were too archaic, monthly participation reports and hours required. Just not worth the effort.

If you are really that passionate about EMCOMM join the local ARES group, they do provide a service, in my area the are used at the Boston Marathon, and numerous other events. Really not EMCOMM but at least they are being used. 
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N1EN

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RE: In Defense of MARS
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2015, 08:11:39 AM »

Not sure how they ever got into the EMCOMM thing as its not part of their Mission. There is one small blurb that says if requested they could help, not go out and issue callsigns to Hospitals (someone posted that in another thread)  and make contracts to serve Agencies outside the military.

So, eHam is a repository of everything there is to possibly know?

I'm sure the forum's sponsors are pleased at the potential to challenge Google and the NSA!

You might find it interesting to poke around in other places to check on the possibility of finding an actual current/recent mission statement.

The Military ( not National Guard ) has no duty to respond to Domestic Disasters unless activated by the President,

So, you agree that sometimes, under extreme conditions, the military can be called on to have a domestic disaster response mission, yes?

Unlimited resources , well the 82nd Airborne can pack up and be any where in the world in 18 hrs, so Yes ..

So, Sequestration didn't have an impact on the military?  DoD planners have no concerns about the impact of changes in future federal budgets?  Active duty troops are never released after injury because the cost of rehabilitation back to active duty capability is too high?

One might wonder whether an entity that has to live within budget constraints might find some potential value in a volunteer resource.

I think you are grasping at straws when it comes to evolving, where would they fit in?

I'm going to leave that as an exercise for the reader.

That being said....look, in my day job, I'm in insurance.  Part of my specialty is working with the insurance needs for government entities. Risk management, disaster planning, and the relationship between professionals and volunteers are of interest to me both professionally and recreationally as a ham.

There can be value in having a group of volunteers available to help out when demand is great and professionals are otherwise committed.  The challenge is in establishing the proper relationship between professionals and volunteers, the two-way communication when it comes to expectations and capabilities, the evolution of that relationship as needs and resources change, etc.

That situation evolves, and it's a big challenge for groups like ARES, RACES, MARS....the whole array of volunteer communications alphabet soup groups. Frankly, its a challenge where it's extremely difficult to succeed over the long term.

Are MARS members and AMARS/AFMARS in general really up for that challenge?  The folks who are in a position to see the big picture probably aren't in a position to say, given the current federal philosophy of not sharing information (even unclassified information) when there is no need to do so.

However, considering the possibilities of what could be possible, and what could make sense is a favorite pastime of mine.  And I'm sure there are some masochists out there who really enjoy trying to make possibilities into reality.   ;D
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W6EM

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RE: In Defense of MARS
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2015, 06:04:41 PM »

....There are just 5 instances and I am still half asleep.  I'm sure that we all can come up with more.

Add Hurricane Charley to the list.  The Port Charlotte, FL PD asked hams for help to set up an old UHF system as their main radio system was unuseable.

err, ya might wanna check your facts.

I live in P.C. we don't even have a police dept. ;)

there were some Satern (salvation Army) comms over the undamaged W4DUX repeater.
Well, I resided in Bradenton at the time, and heard lots of exchanges concerning it over the NI4CE, ex-K4WCF repeater system.  Then, it must have been either North Port or Punta Gorda.  I do recall an officer escorting a ham with a service monitor from the Sunshine Skyway down your way as fast as possible.  A rather significant outage of a trunked system that required re-establishing their old UHF repeater system quickly.
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N2OBM

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RE: In Defense of MARS
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2015, 12:48:10 AM »

OMG....in this day and age no one took any part of this speculation and crunched it in Google?

Please...

The Stafford Act, "re-visited" after Katrina...much better product with supporting doctrine.

Defense Coordination Officers, active duty full birds, have a staff known as the Defense Coordination Element.

NorthCOM and PACOM both have DCO/DCEs. Defense Support to Civilian Authorities(DSCA) should not be confused with Humanitarian Assistance/ Disaster Relief (HADR) which is usually State Department driven to another country.

The Act requires local, county and State governments to mobilize their assets first...then, with coordination of FEMA, they can ask the combatant Commanders for Title 10 (active duty) assistance. Title 10 assets can also be requested when State governments do not organically have solutions for a problem....chemical terrorist attacks...sarin gas...and the like.

MARS, SHARES and a couple other obscure programs COULD be very useful if COMMO planners know how to press them into service.

But...anymore..duplicity, wasteful spending, the size of a Johnson, and chest thumping does not allow the National Response Framework (overall doctrine) to work. Add to this greed by vendors, who are drooling over FirstNet....the whole process needs someone to flush the toilet.

MSG(r) Trent Bronson
Comms Planner/ Spectrum Manager
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 12:54:58 AM by N2OBM »
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