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Author Topic: ICOM IC-7300  (Read 428882 times)

AC7CW

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RE: ICOM IC-7300
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2016, 08:51:33 AM »

The question is: are there proof that you have full computer control? ADC signal to and from computer?  If so, then in a worst case scenario it's a cheap Flex 6K with maestro for 1\3 price. Else, it depends on what it can do.
We know it doesn't have advanced features that cna be found in much more expensive radios, but for the price... It's a far better radio than the competition, even if it doesn't have ADC to\from computer :)

Almost certainly we will be able to tap the output of the ADC and post process it with some inexpensive hardware and open source software, no?
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K6JH

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RE: ICOM IC-7300
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2016, 03:25:53 PM »

The question is: are there proof that you have full computer control? ADC signal to and from computer?  If so, then in a worst case scenario it's a cheap Flex 6K with maestro for 1\3 price. Else, it depends on what it can do.
We know it doesn't have advanced features that cna be found in much more expensive radios, but for the price... It's a far better radio than the competition, even if it doesn't have ADC to\from computer :)

Almost certainly we will be able to tap the output of the ADC and post process it with some inexpensive hardware and open source software, no?

I think that remains to be seen.

ICOM has on-rig dsp. Their manual says you can send RX and TX audio to/from a PC via the USB, for digi modes ala a sound card (i.e. with audio bandwidth).

The have their own RS-BA1 PC remote software which can display the waterfall. But does it spit out the full 1MHz waterfall signal bandwidth being applied to the waterfall, allowing for outboard filtering? Or does it just spit out the processed waterfall display info, which is a function they claim?

I tend to think the 7300 will be somewhat feature neutered in order to allow for a more expensive full featured SDR rig in the future.
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Jim K6JH

ZENKI

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RE: ICOM IC-7300
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2016, 04:00:28 PM »

A crippling  or chopping off at the knees  of what this SDR technology can deliver today, which will  be dripped out in 5 years time as revolutionary.

Icoms first SDR is a disappointment and an opportunity squandered. They should have done the job properly and not released the design so soon. This is really pandering to hams who want something new and thats cheap rather than offering something that is true look into the future of SDR radios with improved specifications.

This radio will always be compared with  the blackbox computer interface SDR's for performance and features. In this regard the Icom IC7300 will always considered a toy because it does not deliver on the true potential of SDR to the masses in a knobbed SDR form factor.

Considering the costs of the parts and whats inside the radio a 1000 dollar price point would be more appropriate for the IC7300 its just so basic. Its really a SDR clone of a basic
radio like the IC718 with added pan adapter and  all its inherited design faults. There is no attempt to demonstrate or to show  how better SDR radios can be and  what the future proofing that this technology can offer. Its also really  a poor exploitation of the power of the  hardware in the IC7300's  design. Bragging about low phase noise with  no meaningful receiver and transmitter data is typical of the Japanese Manufacturers who want to sell hams radios that are pigs with  lipstick on them.

You dont really dont get  direct sampling SDR if you cant deliver a calibrated S-meter on a direct sampling receiver in this day and age. Then lets look at the noise blanker  that wont even offer the performance of  other SDR radios. It will be a button that is pushed and it will do very little. DSP based noise blankers as delivered by other SDR radio makers are very effective because technology allows such good performance to be delivered. We wont get this level of performance in the Icoms implementation of DSP noise blanking

Icom are  using hams as beta testers and as a R&D test platform rather wanting to deliver the best that technology can offer. The real point is that a radio like the IC7300  should have offered better performance and features than a a radio like the IC7850 because thats what the technology is capable of delivering even in the size and price that Icom is offering

Icom will drip feed us the SDR platform and I dont expect much improvement in transmitter and receiver performance.

IC7300
IC7301
IC7310
IC7320

 And the same old broken performance with no real advancement. I wont be holding my breath expecting anything worthwhile like pre-distortion or even something as basic as a calibrated S-meter. Nor would I even expect a SDR radio that  has the best receiver performance and transmitter performance, something that even the cheapest direct sampling transceiver can deliver and is being delivered today.
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N9DG

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RE: ICOM IC-7300
« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2016, 04:24:25 PM »


I think that remains to be seen.

ICOM has on-rig dsp. Their manual says you can send RX and TX audio to/from a PC via the USB, for digi modes ala a sound card (i.e. with audio bandwidth).

The have their own RS-BA1 PC remote software which can display the waterfall. But does it spit out the full 1MHz waterfall signal bandwidth being applied to the waterfall, allowing for outboard filtering? Or does it just spit out the processed waterfall display info, which is a function they claim?

I tend to think the 7300 will be somewhat feature neutered in order to allow for a more expensive full featured SDR rig in the future.

All indications are that there will only be simple single audio signal I/O over the USB. Just like the models with audio on the USB port that proceeded it. They are reusing much of the "proven" DSP IF code from earlier models after all. So no I/Q audio signals to feed things that can use I/Q data streams. So that will preclude adding an external PC based SDR program to get a more detailed panadapter / waterfall. A feature that many people have come to expect that an "SDR" should be capable of.

The RS-BA1 implementation looks to be simply sending the "video" data from the front panel display over the USB port to the RS-BA1 program. And that better be at the level of detail and display quality that you want. Because unlike the analog IF radio models that preceded it, there is no analog IF around 70MHz to tap into to add an external device like a cheap dongle or some other SDR device that can digitize analog IF signals. So it is kind of ironic that the ability, or means to improve the spectrum display of the IC-7300 by using external hardware is actually less that the previous models. Perhaps the only option is to tap into the RF signal path prior to the A to D.

No doubt that there will be higher up models to follow, perhaps even announced at this coming Dayton or Tokyo in early Fall. And I had to guess the next DDC model announced will be in the IC-7600 bracket since that model is long in the tooth.
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NEWESTHAM

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RE: ICOM IC-7300
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2016, 05:41:12 PM »


This video is 4 hrs old :) German speaker but shows a little bit more in terms of it working alongside a computer......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbGtlNbJ2KQ
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K5TED

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RE: ICOM IC-7300
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2016, 07:43:30 PM »

"So that will preclude adding an external PC based SDR program to get a more detailed panadapter / waterfall." is true, if 'detailed' is assumed to denote 'wideband'.

Taking the 455>12kHz IF into a program like HDSDR, Rocky, SDRadio, DReaM, SoDira, etc. is perfectly usable. It has been for years. In fact, for example, for the esoteric MW enthusiast, SoDira is able to decode CQUAM AM Stereo using only an IF tap and 12kHz downconverter (essentially what is provided by the 7300). All modes. All filtering. All the time.

SDR demod, filters, and rig control.. All there. Yes, it is only 12kHz bandwidth, but there is no 'rule' stating that SDR panadaptors having to cover several MHz is the standard. Some hams possibly only are interested in what is going on a few kHz either side, not into the next band segment. Some. Not all.

Here's a comparison between a Icom PCR-100 with 12kHz IF tap and a Flex 3000 I/Q output, split with one receiver on the Left and one on the Right, on a very marginal AM signal. Same antenna. Both decoded with HDSDR. You figure out which is which.

http://k5ted.net/mp3/radioprogreso1620TOHLRA.mp3

 

 
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 07:56:50 PM by K5TED »
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K6JH

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RE: ICOM IC-7300
« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2016, 01:53:27 AM »


Taking the 455>12kHz IF into a program like HDSDR, Rocky, SDRadio, DReaM, SoDira, etc. is perfectly usable.
 


??? What 455>12KHz IF? Did I miss a feature?

I thought the only advertised output available is the demodulated audio sound card compatible USB connection. No I/Q available for HDSDR....

Although ICOM could surprise us and give us I/Q too. Not mentioned in the basic user manual, but maybe there will be a technical supplement manual we haven't seen yet.
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Jim K6JH

9V1YC

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RE: ICOM IC-7300
« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2016, 06:35:40 AM »

With all the misleading information I am reading here I thought it was time to chime in with some real-world, actual field reporting on the 7300.

I picked up one of these cute 7300's in Tokyo in mid-January (¥120,000, approx US$980 at the time).  I just got through using it on a 10-day DXpedition in Timor-Leste as 4W/N1YC. This was a true 'blind-date'.  I wouldn't normally take an untested, 1st production, low-serial number rig on a DXpedition in a less than ideal environment, but I figured here was my chance to put a brand new radio through the paces.  As a seasoned user of many radios (SDR's included) and 250,000 QSO's in the log from my home QTH of 9V1YC,  I feel I'm pretty well qualified to give this a try.  (Certainly more than most of the complainers I am reading on this forum, some of whom haven't even touched a 7300 yet).

NOTE:  The 7300 is also not a contest-grade radio with sub-receivers, external RX antenna inputs and other useful features, so its not fair to measure it against a K3 or other high-end radio. This mini-review is just letting you know how Icom's new SDR performed in a tough DXpedition environment, and how it felt to me.

The setup was as follows:  We had two stations, side-by-side, running full tilt for 10 days. The second station was a K2, and we also had another K2 as a backup rig just in case the 7300 turned out to be a disaster.  Each station had a Tokyo Hy-Power HL-550fx running 500W and a set of Dunestar bandpass filters. Both stations were using Hustler 6BTV's with 60 radials each.   We were at a nice location facing North - about 50m from the high tide mark, and 30m up on a hillside.   (We've used this spot on two previous trips, and clocked up about 35,000 QSOs on 2014 and 2015).

Our shack location was on a covered outdoor deck facing the sea, in a high-humidity, high-dust, high electrical noise area with sea-spray, wind and rain thrown in for good measure.  Just about as tough as it gets.  The previous trips used a K2 and a TS-590, but this time we swapped out the TS-590 for the 7300, and brought an extra K2 as both a backup (and an a A-B comparison).  We knew the K2 could take this nasty environment, but we had no idea how the 7300 would perform.

The 7300 was an immense pleasure to operate.  I mean that in every way. I was expecting the worst but this little radio was a sheer joy to operate.  The receiver was simply beautiful - especially to my ears with are normally used to the sound of a K3, IC-7600 or TS-590 in a contest.  Pileups were smooth and easy to run at high rate.  The 7300 definitely has amazing ears.  On the few times I swapped it out for the K2 as a comparison I noticed that the 7300 was more sensitive than the K2, but nothing that was heard on one radio couldn't be copied on the other. In fact, I felt the 7300 had the edge at times - especially on 10/12 and 15m.  For the record, I do love the my old analog K2, and for extended periods of non-stop pileup shoveling I feel the K2 is probably gentler on the ears.  (Any K2 owner will know what I am talking about).

We did have some inter-station interference from time to time (as we always do on these trips). The first thing we did when that happened was swap out the 7300 to the backup K2, just to make sure it wasn't the 7300 which was dirty.  No major difference was noted on any band, so we concluded the 7300's TX was not the culprit.

The filters were as good or better as anything I've used on other high-end Icoms, and the settings are easy to manage through the touch-screen menus. Any 7600/7700/7800 user will have no trouble using this rig out of the box.  No manual required.  The touch screen was something new to me, but after a while I found myself really enjoying it compared to a regular radio. Especially the Elecraft push-and hold kind of situation which I hate.  

The scope is not something I really use when behind a pileup, but I did play with it every now and then when the rate dropped and I was bored.  Its extremely sharp, but that's to be expected from an SDR.

The real stand-out feature of the 7300 is the noise blanker.  Being in a poor, 3rd-world country with badly maintained vehicles and terrible power distribution means there was noise all over the place.  Really bad, S9 crap almost all the time.  The 7300's noise blanker cut through just about everything that was thrown at it, and I was able to clock over 8000 QSO's in 9 days.  I even managed to run the last few hours of the ARRL DX contest without any problems (which is no small feat from 9000 miles away and a crummy Hustler 6BTV).    I have never heard a noise blanker this good, and on that point it left the K2 in the dust. Literally.  (yes, I know the K2 has a pathetic noise blanker.....)

BTW - I noticed none of the complaints "ZENKI" is talking about on this forum, so perhaps his 7300 is from a different batch?  Not sure where he got his test rig from.  Anyway, for the record I noticed no PA power spikes, no spurs, no ALC overshoots, no IMD problems, and the S-meter was bang on target when compared to my TS-590, IC-7600 and two different K2s back here at home.

The rig was run at 90W all the time, and the PA temperature reading never really moved upward the entire trip.  The heat sink felt cool whenever I touched it. The 7300 was also coated in dust and sea-spray almost non-stop, and had to be wiped down almost every hour.  At times the touch-screen was so coated with crud that I could write my initials on it.   None of these external annoyances interfered with the rig's operation, and it never missed a beat.

Again, this review is not meant to compare the 7300 against the K2 since the two are entirely different radios, and that's an apples and oranges type of situation. This review was also not meant to compare it against a K3, 7600, 590 or any other rig.   This was simply to see how Icom's new SDR would perform under pressure, and how it felt to my own ears.  (Everyone has their favorite radio, and everyone has their own "my rig is better than your rig" story, so lets leave that for another thread, ok?).

There are lots more things I can say here that are technical (like PC interfacing) but I will answer those questions if anyone has them.

Bottom line:  I made a ton of QSO's, had a great time, and simply love this radio. Its a real gem.

Feel free to ask me any questions.  Happy to reply (with what I know so far....).

73  James 9V1YC

p.s. Yes, we even made some QSO's on 6m too.  About 43 JA's.


Then we find Icom breaks the basic SDR direct sampling design.

Un-calibrated  waterfall and S-meter and a transmitter that has all the design failures of the legacy transmitters. ALC  overshoot, a PA with power spikes and poor IMD. Then we have to see if they have a noise transmitter than generates wide band noise and other spurious products. I wont be holding my breath when it comes to a new Icom radio model.


« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 06:51:32 AM by 9V1YC »
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N5PG

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RE: ICOM IC-7300
« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2016, 08:19:46 AM »

A breath of fresh air ;D
Thanks James and tnx for the 4W Q and fast LOTW upload,
73, Paul
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K5TED

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RE: ICOM IC-7300
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2016, 08:57:01 AM »


Taking the 455>12kHz IF into a program like HDSDR, Rocky, SDRadio, DReaM, SoDira, etc. is perfectly usable.
 


??? What 455>12KHz IF? Did I miss a feature?

I thought the only advertised output available is the demodulated audio sound card compatible USB connection. No I/Q available for HDSDR....

Although ICOM could surprise us and give us I/Q too. Not mentioned in the basic user manual, but maybe there will be a technical supplement manual we haven't seen yet.

From page 12-7 of the IC-7300 English manual:

"ACC/USB Output Select (Default: AF) Selects the signal output from [ACC] and [USB]. • AF: AF signal is output. • IF:  A 12 kHz IF signal is output.  You can listen to the Digital Radio Mondiale (DRM) broadcast with the application software receiver that is installed into your PC"


The 12kHz IF described there seems to be analogous to the output from a 455kHz to 12kHz converter as far as HDSDR, DReaM, Sodira, etc. go. Doesn't mean it is necessarily derived from a 455kHz IF stage. It does seem to indicate that while it isn't analog 'sound card' based, it really sort of is just using the radio USB port doing the same thing, that is, providing a 12kHz baseband signal to a SDR receiver application running on the PC.

" the application software receiver that is installed into your PC" leaves it up in the air as to whether the Icom control software will have an actual SDR application included, or if they are referring to the aforementioned freeware apps.

Note: Alinco included a piece of third party freeware, "KG-TRX SDR", a 12kHz SDR receiver, with their DX-SR9 transceiver, taking the audio from the "I/Q" port into a PC sound card.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 11:32:09 AM by K5TED »
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WA2OLZ

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RE: ICOM IC-7300
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2016, 01:36:33 PM »

Thanks, James. It is great to hear how well the 7300 worked for you.

Side note: don't feed the trolls... it just makes them fat and loud  :D
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N1EU

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RE: ICOM IC-7300
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2016, 01:59:25 PM »

thanks for the review James!  Two questions if you have the time:

1.  What do you mean by "Its extremely sharp, but that's to be expected from an SDR" ???

2.  How smooth is the headphone audio during T/R transitions in cw?  Is it smooth like the K3 (swish-swish) or is it a bit harder?  Any audible T/R pops, etc?  Any latency in the sidetone?

73, Barry N1EU
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K7FD

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RE: ICOM IC-7300
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2016, 02:51:23 PM »

HRO Portland is hopeful for delivery by the end of this month. Twenty are coming and as of yesterday I believe he said 14 are spoken for, including mine  ;D

I spent all day reading the 172 page FULL IC-7300 online manual. Seems well written but of course it will make more sense when the radio is in front of me.

I am wondering whether the built-in keyer is iambic...and, if so, mode A, B, or both.

Also, in full break-in, are there any relays clattering?

73 John K7FD
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YO9IRF

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RE: ICOM IC-7300
« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2016, 12:46:55 AM »

Took the IC-7300 for a spin this weekend as well, and wrote an article about it. Includes lots of info:

http://yo9irf.blogspot.com/2016/03/icom-ic-7300-review.html

I totally agree with 9V1YC, it's a pleasure to operate, the interface is very good and performance is excellent.
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CS7AJS

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RE: ICOM IC-7300
« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2016, 04:33:20 AM »

James(9V1YC), would you please be so kind and tell us if one can connect and use the IC7300 with an existing SDR sfotware like HDSDR. SDR#, etc? Maybe if one needs CAT control on one software and SDR "features" on another. 
Can there be Tx audio from computer to radio?

Thank you so much for the info :)

73 de CR7AJS - Sergio Rasteiro
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