Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 ... 9   Go Down

Author Topic: Bad CW  (Read 34847 times)

N4OI

  • Member
  • Posts: 434
RE: Bad CW
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2017, 08:19:11 PM »

OK, I'll bite. But I have to say, I have already had some wine tonight!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxmkXsHvZF8

paul

Sounds FB to me... getting complaints about that?  Fogettaboutit!!!

73  ::)
Logged

K8AXW

  • Posts: 7391
    • HomeURL
RE: Bad CW
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2017, 10:04:37 PM »

Anyone who has trouble copying that bug needs to learn code or maybe just up their copy speed ability.  Sounds great to me! 
Logged
A Pessimist is Never Disappointed!

W6MK

  • Posts: 4095
    • HomeURL
RE: Bad CW
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2017, 10:20:24 PM »

Perfectly fine sending but also not perfect.

Small timing errors are not significant for understanding and the overall rhythm is very easy on the ears.

Nice work!

I am also confident that bug-sent code of that quality can be read by code-reader programs.
Logged

VK5EEE

  • Member
  • Posts: 1215
RE: Bad CW
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2017, 10:27:16 PM »

Here is my entry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjqT8PSqG_w but I can hear with my own ears where it isn't 100%.
In any case, as I've said many times before, I know, I exercise and I enjoy my raht to pleh ma music how me laak it.
As to John 9V1VV I have had many QSO with him and he is an excellent bug operator, a former professional CW operator, and his CW is superb. He has even sent half hour long broadcast messages faultless with easy copy at around 25WPM.
But to your original post John, and it's the important thing for me, and I've raised this many times: it IS a growing problem, and it is called DCW -- officially Digital CW, but could be Dunce CW, Drongo CW, Delusional CW -- it's the use of a DECODER -- NOT a keyboard (which can be used correctly on CW) and it BELONGS IN THE DIGITAL CW sub bands and NOT in the CW exclusive bands. It has invaded our exclusive CW bands and causes torture, insults and havoc -- also for our good friends the cheating CON - TESTERS who have to repeat things for those DCW users who wrongly entered the CW part of a Con Test and the DX Tourorists who have to endlessly repeat the DCW callsign and 5 Nothing Nothing resulting in hold up for others.
But whenever I raise the subject of DCW, as a visionary who sees ahead many years, few understand what I'm talking about.
http://www.vkcw.net/cwtoday will be of interest to many, and when the time is right this subject of DCW, CON TESTERS and DX TOURORISM and even DX Terrorism, will need to be addressed along with the band plans. Or we can return to the Maritime CW bands which are now generally vacant and we can relaunch the original Amateur Radio from its foundations and abandon the licenses we currently have and stop paying the government to do nothing for us. But that time hasn't yet arrived, we can first try educating CW ops to their rights and to get together to defend them. IARU served this purpose for a long time regarding amateur radio in general, but lost its way. The CW Clubs are not doing this, though they do create more activity and friendships, but ignore some of the elephants in the room. Yes it's just a hobby eh, and we enjoy it, but we ALSO have to do something little toward having that rat in the future as it is being fast eroded at many levels. Otherwise those of us who are younger we can retire in future and not enjoy the hobby at all if current trends continue.
Logged
Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,

DU7DVE

  • Member
  • Posts: 334
RE: Bad CW
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2017, 10:56:14 PM »

Here is my entry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjqT8PSqG_w but I can hear with my own ears where it isn't 100%.
In any case, as I've said many times before, I know, I exercise and I enjoy my raht to pleh ma music how me laak it.
As to John 9V1VV I have had many QSO with him and he is an excellent bug operator, a former professional CW operator, and his CW is superb. He has even sent half hour long broadcast messages faultless with easy copy at around 25WPM.
But to your original post John, and it's the important thing for me, and I've raised this many times: it IS a growing problem, and it is called DCW -- officially Digital CW, but could be Dunce CW, Drongo CW, Delusional CW -- it's the use of a DECODER -- NOT a keyboard (which can be used correctly on CW) and it BELONGS IN THE DIGITAL CW sub bands and NOT in the CW exclusive bands. It has invaded our exclusive CW bands and causes torture, insults and havoc -- also for our good friends the cheating CON - TESTERS who have to repeat things for those DCW users who wrongly entered the CW part of a Con Test and the DX Tourorists who have to endlessly repeat the DCW callsign and 5 Nothing Nothing resulting in hold up for others.
But whenever I raise the subject of DCW, as a visionary who sees ahead many years, few understand what I'm talking about.
http://www.vkcw.net/cwtoday will be of interest to many, and when the time is right this subject of DCW, CON TESTERS and DX TOURORISM and even DX Terrorism, will need to be addressed along with the band plans. Or we can return to the Maritime CW bands which are now generally vacant and we can relaunch the original Amateur Radio from its foundations and abandon the licenses we currently have and stop paying the government to do nothing for us. But that time hasn't yet arrived, we can first try educating CW ops to their rights and to get together to defend them. IARU served this purpose for a long time regarding amateur radio in general, but lost its way. The CW Clubs are not doing this, though they do create more activity and friendships, but ignore some of the elephants in the room. Yes it's just a hobby eh, and we enjoy it, but we ALSO have to do something little toward having that rat in the future as it is being fast eroded at many levels. Otherwise those of us who are younger we can retire in future and not enjoy the hobby at all if current trends continue.

Hey OM Lou. Bad condx lately. How are you?
Logged

VK5EEE

  • Member
  • Posts: 1215
RE: Bad CW
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2017, 12:05:28 AM »

Thanks Chuck OM I'm fine, I saw your nice post, glad that the hand key and bug users with our various styles are helping to learn the accents of CW :-)

Yes conditions have been rather poor, though at times OK, last night USA was coming in strong on 40m, and at times 20m was alive. But we've had zero sun spots (now just two!) for quite some time, so the ionosphere isn't heavily ionized.

I'm having fun experimenting with a 40m elevated vertical that is just 3m long and outperforms my double zepp, and performs better at 1/3 the physical length than a full length vertical due to the feedpoint + radial(s) being elevated.

Hopefully catch you on air again very soon!
Logged
Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,

N4OI

  • Member
  • Posts: 434
RE: Bad CW
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2017, 04:37:45 AM »

Here is my entry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjqT8PSqG_w but I can hear with my own ears where it isn't 100%.
[...]

Played this at breakfast while only half watching and was in awe at the sending consistency between types of keys!  (I am also set up to switch between paddle, bug and key -- but alas, the output is in different worlds..)  Then I watched a little closer and almost choked on my Cheerios...   You got me...  very good one!!! 

73  ;D
Logged

VK5EEE

  • Member
  • Posts: 1215
RE: Bad CW
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2017, 05:00:33 AM »

Here is my entry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjqT8PSqG_w but I can hear with my own ears where it isn't 100%.
[...]

Played this at breakfast while only half watching and was in awe at the sending consistency between types of keys!  (I am also set up to switch between paddle, bug and key -- but alas, the output is in different worlds..)  Then I watched a little closer and almost choked on my Cheerios...   You got me...  very good one!!! 

73  ;D
Hi OM, why did you almost choke and "got me" -- there was no trick in this. I think I was keying both rigs too, so it has a nice sound of two side tones beating against each other. I often used to key two TX on different bands and antennas. I was deliberately trying to make them all as close as possible to "perfect CW" which I can do at this moderate speed, but it gets mighty difficult and then impossible at higher speeds. But in daily usage I don't use the bug that way, I deliberately change my sending style to a more traditional "bug" swing. With straight key depends on my mood but more often I do send "perfect" CW on it. With keyer, we have no option: especially with keyer I feel one SHOULD send "perfect" CW because to do anything else on a keyer, REDUCES intelligibility, while on a bug and straight key, variations can IMPROVE intelligibility. Professional OPs who had to pass traffic in marginal conditions will know what I mean by this. E.g. one can space the internal character gaps increasing them, and send some letters a different way with e.g. elongated dah.
Logged
Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,

N4OI

  • Member
  • Posts: 434
RE: Bad CW
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2017, 05:45:00 AM »


Hi OM, why did you almost choke and "got me" -- there was no trick in this. [...]
[/quote]

I went and watched again... (I need better priorities...)  I was convinced you were playing a DCW track to your choreography...  but all I can say is "WOW!"  I am truly humbled and now realize the never-ending levels of skill, expertise and art there are to this CW mode...  Congratulations and thanks for sharing!

73  ;D
Logged

VK5EEE

  • Member
  • Posts: 1215
RE: Bad CW
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2017, 05:56:09 AM »

Ahh, OK! No most definitely not DCW -- just a nice "modulated CW" sound which comes when I key both HF rigs, which have different side tones. I can't remember if I did this live on the air, or off air... was a while back now. Yes, CW is about timing, I guess those of us who can QRQ since we have split second timing and reflexes, but also there is recognition of rhythm. Pure "perfect" CW does have a special timing to it, and you will hear it on good DCW programs indeed, but we also used to hear it from Coastal Stations doing weather reports and traffic lists, which used not a computer but a punched tape. Once you listen to that a lot you get an exact feel for the timing. In fact if you listen for hours on end, it really starts to send you to sleep. I used to copy down bulletins and have micronaps while writing then wake up split second later. I also could sleep fully, leaving the RX on and awake if I heard my callsign, just as you may wake when someone calls your name. I guess not when in the deep sleep period though. Yes in this repetitive CQ I got into that rhythm of "perfect CW" and it's hardest on the bug, but really easy on the straight key, and of course a cinch on the paddle. But I was trying to show off in jumping between the various keys in mid flight, and this was the hardest thing, and you can see I slipped up several times because each key has a different keying technique of course. I should re attempt this with the side swiper, that will be really difficult as I'm new to that key, and I haven't yet tried "perfect CW" on it, preferring to use smaller internal gaps, as is the norm on side swipers, though one can overcome this by giving the hand a wider swing and not using it close up. 73 OM
Logged
Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,

VK5EEE

  • Member
  • Posts: 1215
RE: Bad CW
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2017, 06:04:15 AM »

Ha, I just listened to it again, I had sent some times X instead of V on the straight key due to the confusion of suddenly moving from horizontal keying to vertical keying, some kind of trick is played on the brain! The main objective of this video was to jump quickly between keys, and this upset the rhythm, but it does serve to show a bug can be keyed "perfectly" though to be honest, we rarely want to do that nor is there any need to do so. Going back to the commercial coastal stations, officially many of them weren't allowed to use bugs, especially for the traffic lists, yet, I'm told of an OP at VIS Sydney Radio (Greek guy?) who ignored the boss and would send the traffic lists with his bug, and did not slip up :-)
Logged
Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,

W6MK

  • Posts: 4095
    • HomeURL
RE: Bad CW
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2017, 10:03:09 AM »

Here is my entry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjqT8PSqG_w but I can hear with my own ears where it isn't 100%.

I think that the code requirement for licensing should be reinstated in the U.S. with the proviso that the sender has to perform using three different kinds of keys like VK5EEE does. That should clear up much of the sloppy sending we hear now.  ;D

Not only is he not using any robotic gear, he obviously is sticking out his tongue at those who think that a key or paddle needs to cost at least $300 and look like jewelry to produce good code.

 ;D
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 10:06:20 AM by KE6EE »
Logged

ZL1BBW

  • Member
  • Posts: 1914
RE: Bad CW
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2017, 01:11:51 PM »

Ha, I just listened to it again, I had sent some times X instead of V on the straight key due to the confusion of suddenly moving from horizontal keying to vertical keying, some kind of trick is played on the brain! The main objective of this video was to jump quickly between keys, and this upset the rhythm, but it does serve to show a bug can be keyed "perfectly" though to be honest, we rarely want to do that nor is there any need to do so. Going back to the commercial coastal stations, officially many of them weren't allowed to use bugs, especially for the traffic lists, yet, I'm told of an OP at VIS Sydney Radio (Greek guy?) who ignored the boss and would send the traffic lists with his bug, and did not slip up :-)

We could use any key we wanted to, but, had to prove our ability to use it.

The tape for the T/lists was a nightmare, I hated that job, would sit there with a Creed teleprinter and you had to type each callsign twice, plus QRJ or whatever needed to with that call, as well make sure that no clumsy sod got the tape round their feet.

The problem was that there were at least 4 others all accessing the carousel at the same time, putting tfc in pulling it out, and you had to keep going typing the damn list up.

That is why 'Inky' used to his tl's live with a bug at Christmas.
Logged
ex MN Radio Officer, Portishead Radio GKA, BT Radio Amateur Morse Tester.  Licensed as G3YCP ZL1DAB, now taken over my father (sk) call as ZL1BBW.

W6MK

  • Posts: 4095
    • HomeURL
RE: Bad CW
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2017, 01:23:34 PM »


We could use any key we wanted to, but, had to prove our ability to use it.


I think in some branches of the U.S. military, radiotelegraphers could use straight keys or keyers but there was a separate
qualifying test to use a bug.
Logged

AC2EU

  • Member
  • Posts: 2793
    • McVey Electronics
RE: Bad CW
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2017, 01:51:45 PM »

I would do two things:

1 - I would have someone who isn't afraid to speak the truth evaluate my sending.  This might be harder that you think but I would do it somehow.  As I mentioned in another thread here on the CW Forum when someone suggested making a recording and sending it to the QLF operator, "he will listen to it and think it is good sending."

I also said something to the effect that "bug operators were the worst offenders for bad keying because they have a tendency to send the dits at 20WPM and the dahs at 13-15WPM."  Be sure you're not one of these.

2 - After determining that my sending was indeed good enough to copy (Note that I didn't say perfect!) I would ignore the VU  LID.

I agree with the rest who expressed their opinions that the VU was using a CW reader, which requires almost perfect CW without QRN/M. 

Personally, I feel that someone who needs a reader to copy CW is not a CW operator. 

Amen !

As a relative newcomer to CW , The bug ops are the most difficult because of the reason stated. You give them the benefit of the doubt saying dits at 20, some are more like 30 or so and the dahs at 15. Crazy! There are folks who know how to use them and you can't tell that it's a bug. There are far too many that are obvious. No can do! Spin the knob.

Then there are the ops that don't space the words, sothemessageisonecontuniousstringofletters!

I think everyone should test themselves WITH a CW reader, just to be sure that we are sending copy-able CW. 
The reader doesn't lie or worry about hurting our feelings!

I used to run a reader occasionally as a "backup" for my lack of confidence, but I find that I can make sense of many fists when the reader is putting out gibberish. 
I guess that means I can copy CW!



Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 ... 9   Go Up