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Author Topic: Hamfest Damage Report  (Read 75395 times)

N2SR

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RE: Hamfest Damage Report
« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2017, 01:01:36 PM »

I know exactly where you mean.  My group stays at the U of Dayton dorms most years, and we drive right past there.  It's also just about 10 blocks or so due south of the main hotels in downtown Dayton, though the neighborhood(s) in between aren't exactly the best.

What "main hotels" in downtown Dayton?  There is only one.  The Crowne Plaza.  There are a few others, but they are not considered "main hotels."   Even the Marriott moved out of downtown Dayton.  
 
Maybe not, but most areas of Trotwood, and the offsite parking at Salem Mall wasn't the best neighborhood either.  

I do not know if the indoor facility would be big enough.  And I'm not sure how viable those tents would be for the major vendors; I know that one major vendor that was placed in "Building" 6000 spaces was quite vocally unhappy about it.

Now as I recall, there is also a field/stadium complex adjacent to the U of Dayton stadium that belongs to the public schools.  If both facilities could be used, this might work.  If not, I would not only wonder if the U of Dayton facility would be enough, but what would happen if the public schools decide to use their facilities at the same time?

I'm not saying that it would be large enough.  Remember the indoor facilities at the fairgrounds aren't large enough either, so dara used tents.  Why couldn't tents be used at UD?   There are various quality of tents.  I recall what dara used to use in the early 90s in the flea market area.  That wasn't so good.  

I thought that the track and field (on the left, closer to I-75) was part of UD, and I thought it was their practice field.  I could be wrong.  


I also seem to recall in the past that this was looked into, and at the time, the facility was deemed insufficient -- lack of indoor exhibit space.  Maybe that has changed; I don't know off hand.

Also, considering that I-75 in Dayton has been under reconstruction for the last few years (this year, the ramps to US 35 East were not available... as in, not there & in the process of being replaced), I would think in the short term, the access might not be all that easy.  Once construction is completed, that would be a different story, of course.

That may be the case.  I might have been thinking of the Convention Center downtown, which would not work.  

The first question would be, would the University be amenable to it?  If they are, the second question would be is it cost effective?  

I have no idea.  All I was doing was suggesting a potentially viable alternative.  

It appears that the parking lot is HUGE.  Likely because it's for parking for the indoor arena and the stadium.  

I have no idea.   I'm not sure if UD is a private or public university.  It seemed that the city/county wanted to make sure that dara kept the hamfest in the area, so they seemed they were willing to "bend over backwards" to do it.  Putting pressure on UD might be part of that.  

Again, I have no idea.  Just presenting a potentially viable alternative.   Maybe dara did look at it and deemed it insufficient.  My thought is/was that if it is possible, then the next step would be if UD was amenable to it, but came back with a counter of, "sure, but you cannot interfere with commencement," would dara consider moving the dates back to April, or the first weekend in June ?  

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N2SR

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RE: Hamfest Damage Report
« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2017, 01:09:47 PM »

Based solely on satellite imagery and experience with the UW System here in WI, my comments are as follows:

I don't think there is enough parking area there to house both the huge flea market, tents, and local parking.

If the UD is anything like what I have seen with UW, the athletic fields would be a no go. Reason usually given is the fields must be maintained to the related sports standards of the league they are in.

Both are observations with no knowledge of UD policies and without an accurate survey of potential usable grounds. But that would be for people connected with DARA and UD to determine if the site is even feasible. But just like Xenia, there are always alternatives that could be remedied if in fact it were feasible.

Why?  Didn't the "huge" flea market fit inside the infield of the track?   A football field is smaller than the horse track, but the running track could also be used. 

I'm not saying that everyone could park onsite.  Initially dara said that of the fairgrounds, "everyone could park onsite."  However, that was changed, was it not?   They offered several offsite parking areas.   Why couldn't the same be done here?

Okay, so put tents on the sports fields, and fill out the parking lot with flea market.  Whatever way it's done, it'll never be the same as hara.  As someone said (somewhere), "people were used to walking out of the back of the building and walking into the flea market."  That's not going to happen anymore.  Not unless someone builds upgraded hara arena. 

I'm not saying they should move the venue.  I was just suggesting a potentially viable site.  Maybe dara looked at it, and dismissed it.  I have no idea. 

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W9FIB

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RE: Hamfest Damage Report
« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2017, 01:43:00 PM »

Based solely on satellite imagery and experience with the UW System here in WI, my comments are as follows:

I don't think there is enough parking area there to house both the huge flea market, tents, and local parking.

If the UD is anything like what I have seen with UW, the athletic fields would be a no go. Reason usually given is the fields must be maintained to the related sports standards of the league they are in.

Both are observations with no knowledge of UD policies and without an accurate survey of potential usable grounds. But that would be for people connected with DARA and UD to determine if the site is even feasible. But just like Xenia, there are always alternatives that could be remedied if in fact it were feasible.

Why?  Didn't the "huge" flea market fit inside the infield of the track?   A football field is smaller than the horse track, but the running track could also be used. 

Okay, so put tents on the sports fields, and fill out the parking lot with flea market. 

I have no idea. 



Tents on the sports fields are the worst option. With all those stakes more than likely at least 1 would damage a part of the field drainage system. Think of that heavy rain over the weekend during a football game. The field has little puddling thanks to a well designed and very expensive drainage system.

Like I said my observations are from afar and based on my past experience with a university system. I have no idea either. That's why I said DARA and UD would have to study the feasibility.

Sounds like this is an exercise in futility anyway. Based on other comments Xenia is the permanent home for at least another year. So I will give as much thought as it deserves from here on. None!
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N9FB

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RE: Hamfest Damage Report
« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2017, 02:45:14 PM »

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K9MHZ

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RE: Hamfest Damage Report
« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2017, 05:26:45 PM »

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WB8FOZ

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RE: Hamfest Damage Report
« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2017, 05:48:46 PM »

Sunday afternoon I met the GCFG ~"grounds superintendent" [I don't recall the title he used..] as he and another worker collected trash cans from the far end of the infield. I expressed concern over the damage; but he downplayed it, saying the big roller would get it back to normal soon; the grass would grow back.

He also said they were already discussing improvements for 2018.

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W1PJE

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RE: Hamfest Damage Report
« Reply #81 on: May 24, 2017, 05:50:10 PM »

< snip >
PS you wish I got booted out, I quit long ago because of brain dead politics in group. I never was sheep material.
Whatever.

So you sat at home 20 miles away, but were never actually there.  Yet you are an expert.  Right.

---

And here, gentle readers, is the crux of it.

It is very, very easy to sit back and criticize, using 20/20 hindsight and Monday Morning Quarterbacking, what someone else should have done.  It's an entirely different thing to actually get your proverbial hands dirty -- making the phone calls, visiting the prospective venues and vendors, lining up the supplies and materials, and being on hand to put things together, run the event, and take them apart at the end.

I don't know about anyone else who has been commenting on, or at least reading, this and related threads.  At least I've been involved in multiple hamfests to one degree or another, including helping to run my own club's hamfest for the last 22 years.  Now I'm not going to pretend that this gives me a license to be an expert on everything involved in as big an event as Hamvention is, or anything even close; there's a huge difference of scale between a one day hamfest of ~500 attendees, and an undertaking like a three or four day, 15,000 - 20,000 attendee event like this.  But at least I have an idea of what they are going through, even on a smaller scale.

So W8JX will continue to sit in his easy chair, call everyone names, spew venom at DARA, and generally talk trash about Hamvention.  And every now and then, he may actually manage by accident to make a point.

Just keep in mind that it doesn't mean that he has a clue. 

This is the easy part.  Telling us all what's wrong.  Actually doing something about it?  Well, that's not so easy... that actually requires work, sweat, and commitment. 

And those of us who continue to follow this thread have the same feeling: we're tired of someone who WAS NOT THERE (finally this comes out!) making pronouncements about what happened and disrespecting the hundreds of extremely hard working volunteers and staff that made the experience very positive. 

I was at one of the ARRL booths (HamSCI) that got a lot of foot traffic.  We had a very good sampling of the population as they wandered by.   Everyone seemed to be very happy and having a great time.

By the way, that's my direct observation as to the positive attitude.. because I WAS THERE.
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W3WN

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RE: Hamfest Damage Report
« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2017, 06:05:03 PM »


What's DARA?

73

Kraus
Dayton Amateur Radio Association.  The sponsor of Hamvention.
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W3WN

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RE: Hamfest Damage Report
« Reply #83 on: May 24, 2017, 06:11:53 PM »

I know exactly where you mean.  My group stays at the U of Dayton dorms most years, and we drive right past there.  It's also just about 10 blocks or so due south of the main hotels in downtown Dayton, though the neighborhood(s) in between aren't exactly the best.

What "main hotels" in downtown Dayton?  There is only one.  The Crowne Plaza.  There are a few others, but they are not considered "main hotels."   Even the Marriott moved out of downtown Dayton.  
 
Maybe not, but most areas of Trotwood, and the offsite parking at Salem Mall wasn't the best neighborhood either.  

I do not know if the indoor facility would be big enough.  And I'm not sure how viable those tents would be for the major vendors; I know that one major vendor that was placed in "Building" 6000 spaces was quite vocally unhappy about it.

Now as I recall, there is also a field/stadium complex adjacent to the U of Dayton stadium that belongs to the public schools.  If both facilities could be used, this might work.  If not, I would not only wonder if the U of Dayton facility would be enough, but what would happen if the public schools decide to use their facilities at the same time?

I'm not saying that it would be large enough.  Remember the indoor facilities at the fairgrounds aren't large enough either, so dara used tents.  Why couldn't tents be used at UD?   There are various quality of tents.  I recall what dara used to use in the early 90s in the flea market area.  That wasn't so good.  

I thought that the track and field (on the left, closer to I-75) was part of UD, and I thought it was their practice field.  I could be wrong.  

I also seem to recall in the past that this was looked into, and at the time, the facility was deemed insufficient -- lack of indoor exhibit space.  Maybe that has changed; I don't know off hand.

Also, considering that I-75 in Dayton has been under reconstruction for the last few years (this year, the ramps to US 35 East were not available... as in, not there & in the process of being replaced), I would think in the short term, the access might not be all that easy.  Once construction is completed, that would be a different story, of course.

That may be the case.  I might have been thinking of the Convention Center downtown, which would not work.  

The first question would be, would the University be amenable to it?  If they are, the second question would be is it cost effective?  
< snip >
I didn't know that the Marriott had moved out of downtown.  Yes, I was thinking of that and the Crowne Plaza as the "main" hotels.  Thanks for the correction.

That aside... well, it's fun speculation, but it's a moot point at the moment, since DARA is staying in Xenia for the forseeable future.  Even so, it is a fun though experiment.

As I'm not sure about the available exhibit space, I'm not convinced the U of Dayton would be considered "viable" -- obviously, either DARA didn't think so or for other reasons it couldn't be worked out.  Even so, it could be, or it could do, if necessary.

For the sake of argument, let's say U of Dayton is not available.  What else is there?
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ND8M

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RE: Hamfest Damage Report
« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2017, 06:41:49 PM »

< snip >
PS you wish I got booted out, I quit long ago because of brain dead politics in group. I never was sheep material.
Whatever.

So you sat at home 20 miles away, but were never actually there.  Yet you are an expert.  Right.

---
This.  Mud was a problem, but not an insurmountable one.  I had a great time at my first  Hamvention.   I thought the venue was entirely acceptable, the execution was excellent especially for the first year at a totally new venue.  If work permits I'll be back next year for sure.  
And here, gentle readers, is the crux of it.

It is very, very easy to sit back and criticize, using 20/20 hindsight and Monday Morning Quarterbacking, what someone else should have done.  It's an entirely different thing to actually get your proverbial hands dirty -- making the phone calls, visiting the prospective venues and vendors, lining up the supplies and materials, and being on hand to put things together, run the event, and take them apart at the end.

I don't know about anyone else who has been commenting on, or at least reading, this and related threads.  At least I've been involved in multiple hamfests to one degree or another, including helping to run my own club's hamfest for the last 22 years.  Now I'm not going to pretend that this gives me a license to be an expert on everything involved in as big an event as Hamvention is, or anything even close; there's a huge difference of scale between a one day hamfest of ~500 attendees, and an undertaking like a three or four day, 15,000 - 20,000 attendee event like this.  But at least I have an idea of what they are going through, even on a smaller scale.

So W8JX will continue to sit in his easy chair, call everyone names, spew venom at DARA, and generally talk trash about Hamvention.  And every now and then, he may actually manage by accident to make a point.

Just keep in mind that it doesn't mean that he has a clue.  

This is the easy part.  Telling us all what's wrong.  Actually doing something about it?  Well, that's not so easy... that actually requires work, sweat, and commitment.  

And those of us who continue to follow this thread have the same feeling: we're tired of someone who WAS NOT THERE (finally this comes out!) making pronouncements about what happened and disrespecting the hundreds of extremely hard working volunteers and staff that made the experience very positive.  

I was at one of the ARRL booths (HamSCI) that got a lot of foot traffic.  We had a very good sampling of the population as they wandered by.   Everyone seemed to be very happy and having a great time.

By the way, that's my direct observation as to the positive attitude.. because I WAS THERE.

This.  Mud was a problem, but not an insurmountable one.  I had a great time at my first  Hamvention.   I thought the venue was entirely acceptable, the execution was excellent especially for the first year at a totally new venue.  If work permits I'll be back next year for sure.  
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 07:02:40 PM by ND8M »
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W8FA

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RE: Hamfest Damage Report
« Reply #85 on: May 24, 2017, 07:57:16 PM »

Congratulations to DARA and volunteers for pulling the Hamvention move off in less than a year. I had a good time and am going back next year. I live here and have been attending since the last year it was held at the Biltmore Hotel in Downtown Dayton before it moved to HARA.

I did not talk to anyone who was unhappy. It was a clean venue with good parking, good restrooms inside the buildings, excellent food choices and at a reasonable cost.

I hope the well deserved profit DARA makes from Hamvention will be spent to continue with their upgrade of clubhouse, property, antennas and equipment. I operated their station during contests many times when they only shared space in a back building at the Museum of Natural History in north Dayton in the 1960's. It is impressive how far they have come on the backs of volunteers.
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W3WN

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RE: Hamfest Damage Report
« Reply #86 on: May 25, 2017, 05:30:21 AM »

Interesting comment posted to the CQ Contest reflector this morning... as they say, food for thought...
Quote
< snip >XYL and I stopped at a local restaurant Saturday afternoon and visited with the
manager. We talked about the Hamvention a little.

He indicated a lot of local business were really disappointed in how few hams stopped in their business when the community tried to roll out the red carpet for us.

This particular person use to be manager at some restaurant by Hara and said they were always full of hams during Hamvention so he was surprised to hardly seen any.

I can come up with a couple of reasons for not hitting the local restaurants, such as all the good food
choices at Hamvention and it not being as easy to run out to the local restaurant as it was at Hara. Another is the new location my focus was just learning and figuring out how to get there.
< snip >
Can't speak for anyone else, but now that I know my way around Xenia a little bit, I'm going to make it a point next year to stop for dinner on the way back to the hotel somewhere. 
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N2SR

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RE: Hamfest Damage Report
« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2017, 06:02:05 AM »


I didn't know that the Marriott had moved out of downtown.  Yes, I was thinking of that and the Crowne Plaza as the "main" hotels.  Thanks for the correction.

That aside... well, it's fun speculation, but it's a moot point at the moment, since DARA is staying in Xenia for the forseeable future.  Even so, it is a fun though experiment.

As I'm not sure about the available exhibit space, I'm not convinced the U of Dayton would be considered "viable" -- obviously, either DARA didn't think so or for other reasons it couldn't be worked out.  Even so, it could be, or it could do, if necessary.

For the sake of argument, let's say U of Dayton is not available.  What else is there?


I'm not saying that we are going to convince dara to move the hamfest based on our speculation from several hundred miles away. 

I'm guessing that dara decided on a venue large enough to hold everything, that had the largest amount of buildings already on site. 

As I was mentioning to a friend of mine, hara was "unique" in that had a hockey rink, plus 5-6 other buildings all attached to each other, that you could walk from one to another, yet there were doors to close each on off, and each "separate building" had it's own exterior entrance.   There was ample parking for each "building," around the facility.   The hamfest "grew around"  hara in a kind of symbiotic "relationship."  Most attendees got used to walking out of the back of the building - from any door, and walking into the flea market.   That will likely never happen again.   People need to get used to that. 

It appears that no other place in the Dayton area has something like that, and maybe no other place in the country - and I'm not suggesting that the hamfest be moved to some other part of the country.   

Wherever the hamfest goes, be it Greene County Fairgrounds or UD or wherever, there are going to be come compromises. 

http://www.championscenter.net/

A bit further than Xenia, but it seems to have more covered/indoor buildings. 
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WB8FOZ

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RE: Hamfest Damage Report
« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2017, 06:43:48 AM »

Quote
He indicated a lot of local business were really disappointed in how few hams stopped in their business when the community tried to roll out the red carpet for us.


I'd say one big reason was not knowing where they are. A large sign at the GCFG might help there; maybe a booth with local maps, etc.

Also I would think hotel/restaurant proximity is a big factor in choice. I can't imagine any attendee leaving the grounds for lunch, and I am worn out after the day. We typically regroup after a shower and then go out to eat.
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W3WN

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RE: Hamfest Damage Report
« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2017, 07:00:57 AM »

Quote
He indicated a lot of local business were really disappointed in how few hams stopped in their business when the community tried to roll out the red carpet for us.
I'd say one big reason was not knowing where they are. A large sign at the GCFG might help there; maybe a booth with local maps, etc.

Also I would think hotel/restaurant proximity is a big factor in choice. I can't imagine any attendee leaving the grounds for lunch, and I am worn out after the day. We typically regroup after a shower and then go out to eat.
Agreed.

On Friday, we went back to Dayton the way we came in -- all on the west side of Xenia proper, all residential streets until we hit US 35.  No restaurants or other businesses, no signs for them... it was a gorgeous ride, mind you. 

On Saturday, we took US 35 past Xenia to US 68, then came up 68 to the High School.  Did see places to stop, although we'd already had breakfast in Dayton.  Went home straight from the High School. taking 68 north to I-70; again, we passed a few places, but it was early enough in the afternoon that we didn't need to stop.

But -- now that we know where we're going, and presuming we'd be leaving on Saturday a little later next year, stops can (and will) be planned. 
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