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Author Topic: "Best" Sub $1000 HF Rig, New or Used?  (Read 55058 times)

W8JX

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RE: "Best" Sub $1000 HF Rig, New or Used?
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2017, 06:49:12 PM »

We often hear that the FT450 uses old or low level DSP.  What we don't hear is how that manifests itself in everyday operating.  What does low level DSP do or not do that the other radios with higher level DSP do? 

It is interesting that in so many years with so many radios that you cannot quickly see the short comings of a 450. Selectivity is marginal at best on SSB, shape factor on CW is a wide 4 to 1 (even a old school analog 480 was a shape factor of less than 2 to 1 on cw with option analog filter) As I said earlier 7200 has much better performance. 450 also gets AGC thumped easily. Noise blanker are marginal too. As far as looking like a CB it does with cheap front panel design and display that is not good in bright light either. And list goes on.....

I guess no one should pay 2 or 3 grand of even more for a good IF DSP because you think that 450 is as good as them dah....
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N0YXB

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RE: "Best" Sub $1000 HF Rig, New or Used?
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2017, 08:03:18 PM »

We often hear that the FT450 uses old or low level DSP.  What we don't hear is how that manifests itself in everyday operating.  What does low level DSP do or not do that the other radios with higher level DSP do?

It is interesting that in so many years with so many radios that you cannot quickly see the short comings of a 450. Selectivity is marginal at best on SSB, shape factor on CW is a wide 4 to 1 (even a old school analog 480 was a shape factor of less than 2 to 1 on cw with option analog filter) As I said earlier 7200 has much better performance. 450 also gets AGC thumped easily. Noise blanker are marginal too. As far as looking like a CB it does with cheap front panel design and display that is not good in bright light either. And list goes on.....

I guess no one should pay 2 or 3 grand of even more for a good IF DSP because you think that 450 is as good as them dah....

Are you going to be okay? There's another capable and competent person with an opinion that differs from yours about the FT-450.  Heresy. ;)
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GM1FLQ

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RE: "Best" Sub $1000 HF Rig, New or Used?
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2017, 12:05:52 AM »

I have owned over 50 different model HF rigs, sometimes I wonder if the XYL and local hams think I am nuts, but I just like trying out different radios.

I have had some high end radios: Yaesu FT1000D, Yaesu FT1000MP, Yaesu FT990, Kenwood TS950SDX, Kenwood TS950S, Kenwood TS850, Icom 756PRO2, Icom 756PRO

I have had some middle class radios: Yaesu FT950, Yaesu FT920, Kenwood TS480HX, Kenwood TS570S, Icom 756, Icom 746, Ten Tec Jupiter, Icom 9100, Kenwood TS2000

I have had every HF/VHF/UHF radio made except for the Icom 7100.

My point is, I have a basis for comparison, and have used very good rigs.

I have been licensed for 37 years, have 8 band DXCC, 5 band Worked All States twice, 6 meter VUCC 3 times, 2 meter VUCC, Satellite VUCC, 5 band Worked All Zones.  I don't mean to look like I am bragging.........


You're fine, don't worry, will only seem like bragging to the more easily impressed.............. ;)
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GM1FLQ

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RE: "Best" Sub $1000 HF Rig, New or Used?
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2017, 12:10:43 AM »


 As far as looking like a CB it does with cheap front panel design and display that is not good................



............many of which come with a free front panel 800hz hum earthing issue.

AF5CC must have forgot to mention that bit in his ("high standards for operating and equipment") appraisal.  ;D
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 12:15:20 AM by GM1FLQ »
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W4FID

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RE: "Best" Sub $1000 HF Rig, New or Used?
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2017, 03:38:47 AM »

I have a very nice and very complete Kenwood station for sale. TS-50 with optional function button mic, boom mic headset, quick release mounting bracket (semi rare). TS-50 tuner with connecting cable, quick release mounting bracket (you'll never find 2 of them). OEM Kenwood travel case with inserts (very rare). Power supply. Vibroplex EK-1 paddle/keyer on oak base. Original Kenwood manual. Nifty manual. Looks nice. Works perfectly. $850 plus shipping. Call and we can talk if you're interested. 352-eight nine five - 1140
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W8JX

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RE: "Best" Sub $1000 HF Rig, New or Used?
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2017, 11:12:15 AM »

I have a very nice and very complete Kenwood station for sale. TS-50 with optional function button mic, boom mic headset, quick release mounting bracket (semi rare). TS-50 tuner with connecting cable, quick release mounting bracket (you'll never find 2 of them). OEM Kenwood travel case with inserts (very rare). Power supply. Vibroplex EK-1 paddle/keyer on oak base. Original Kenwood manual. Nifty manual. Looks nice. Works perfectly. $850 plus shipping. Call and we can talk if you're interested. 352-eight nine five - 1140

As much as I am a Kenwood man I am sorry to say I never liked TS50 nor would I recommend one. (the entry level TS-140 of same era was a better rig with far better noise blankers for mobile use too) While it was one of the first compact rigs of its type, it lacked in selectivity and noise rejection. I have a friend that bought one new many years ago to use being a snow bird every winter in his motor home. He has since regretted getting it due to lack luster performance. In a TS-50 vs FT-450 I would likely have to give nod to 450.
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N0YXB

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RE: "Best" Sub $1000 HF Rig, New or Used?
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2017, 06:04:47 PM »

In a TS-50 vs FT-450 I would likely have to give nod to 450.

 :o

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AF5CC

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RE: "Best" Sub $1000 HF Rig, New or Used?
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2017, 08:00:41 PM »

It is interesting that in so many years with so many radios that you cannot quickly see the short comings of a 450. Selectivity is marginal at best on SSB, shape factor on CW is a wide 4 to 1 (even a old school analog 480 was a shape factor of less than 2 to 1 on cw with option analog filter) As I said earlier 7200 has much better performance. 450 also gets AGC thumped easily. Noise blanker are marginal too. As far as looking like a CB it does with cheap front panel design and display that is not good in bright light either. And list goes on.....

John (W8JX),

Other than using the rigs at Universal Radio, have you had another chance to use a FT450? I ask because I wonder if the one you were testing was somehow bad or if someone got into the alignment menus and started messing with things.  I don't know why we had such different experiences, but I have used a FT450 and a FT450D in several contests, with a modest gain antenna (a small beam).  I did not notice any AGC thumping or desense in the presence of strong signals.  I have used some radios with very poor front ends and have seen desense occurring.  In contest conditions I would run the FT450 with the preamp off (IPO on) as it is plenty sensitive as it is.  On 40 meters I would usually have the preamp on and the attenuator on because that seemed to give the best signal to noise ratio.

I didn't spend a lot of time checking out filter shapes and such on the FT450 but I would sometimes see how close I could get to a loud signal with the narrow filters on.  I didn't see anything that suggested really broad filters, like high pitched signals or a low rumble from the loud signal getting past the filter skirts.  These are just my experiences in contest conditions, and I have run plenty of contests with different radios, and the FT450 wasn't a bad performer with the preamp off and the noise blanker off if the band was really crowded.  Many radios are like that.

The noise blanker in the FT450, as you state, isn't exceptional. It works pretty good on ignition noise, but not so much on line noise or RFI crud.  Still, I have used rigs with worse noise blankers.  The noise reduction in recent Yaesu rigs is different than in other radios, in that increasing the numbers on the NR setting doesn't increase the amount of noise reduction like it does in Kenwood and Icom rigs.  It was like that in the FT100D and the FT857/897, but in their newer rigs the different numbers represent different noise reduction algorithms, and sometimes going to a lower number actually did better.  It just depended on the type of noise you had.

I didn't play around much with the contour filter on the Yaesu FT450/950/891, so I never really found a huge benefit with it.  There might be ways to set it up where it really does make a difference.  On the FT450 I found a setting that kind of worked like a peak filter on CW, but it wasn't as good as the APF filter found on the FT1000/FT100/FT857/FT950 and FT891.  I don't know why Yaesu left that feature off of the FT450, it does do a great job on CW.

In terms of dynamic range, here are the close in dynamic range numbers from QST for several radios that have been discussed in this thread, all were tested at 500hz bandwidth and the preamp off:

Radio      5khz IMDDR      2khz IMDDR
FT450       75                     67  (QST measured the bandwidth at 665hz instead)
FT450D     86                     76
FT950       91                     71* (using 3khz roofing filter)
TS480       75                     72**
IC7200      83                     67
IC7410      98                     88  (using 3khz roofing filter)

* Rob Sherwood measured 79db (www.sherweng.com).  QST might have tested the non PEP               model

** QST didn't test 2khz IMDDR when this was reviewed. This number came from Rob Sherwood's data, and was tested without the 500hz filter.

This should give a general idea as to where these radios stand with intermodulation dynamic range, which is probably the most important measure of a receiver's performance. 

One thing to feel good about is that there are plenty of good radios out there for less than $1000 today. You can get what were once top of the line radios for less than that-Icom 781, Yaesu FT1000, Kenwood TS950 are all good performers, with dual receiver, over 100 watts out, and lots of filters.  Reliability might be an issue, though. 

73 John AF5CC
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W8JX

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RE: "Best" Sub $1000 HF Rig, New or Used?
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2017, 09:43:23 AM »

Other than using the rigs at Universal Radio, have you had another chance to use a FT450? I ask because I wonder if the one you were testing was somehow bad or if someone got into the alignment menus and started messing with things. 

John, I used to repair radios in past but have not for many years now. I know how to find a rigs weaknesses very quickly. The 450 is a cheap rig with cheap DSP with poor skirt selectivity and no roofing filters and yet you seem to suggest it is a top end performer when it is not. There was nothing wrong with 450 I used several times other than its design. If you only had a 450 or if it was your first rig you might think its great. Play next to real radio in real world conditions and its lack of selectivity is apparent and so is its limitations on QRN. Better IF DSP rigs have roofing filters and better signal processing. I stand by if you have so much money to spend you can get a better used rig than a new 450 for same price.

One thing nice about playing with rigs at universal is that they have a nice bench setup and switching so you can compare rigs side by side in same conditions on same antenna. A 450 receiver does not sound bad to ear if frequency is fairly clear and no QRN or QRM near by on a busy band it drops ball quickly and does not do great with QRN. Maybe one day the hardware under the hood of a 590, 1200 or 7300 or similar rigs will be in a rigs for 700 buck but that is not today or tomorrow or next year either and 450 lacks under the hood to be a solid IF DSP performer,
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K1HMS

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RE: "Best" Sub $1000 HF Rig, New or Used?
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2017, 09:47:39 AM »

I own a FT-450D, TS-590SG and a IC-7300.  With a flip of a coax switch I can, and do, compare the 3 radios. With its 10kHz roofing filter and 70MHz first IF the FT-450D often can't copy signals the other two can. My first 30 states and 30 countries were logged with the 450D. It was a lot of fun.  But you can't argue it is on par with a TS-590SG.

At $700 FOR A 450D versus $950 used the 590SG it is a $250 delta and very much worth it.

Hamilton
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AF5CC

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RE: "Best" Sub $1000 HF Rig, New or Used?
« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2017, 12:12:38 PM »

It is too bad that the narrow roofing filters and low IF frequency are not used on 6m and the WARC bands with the TS590S.  How much worse is its performance on those bands compared to the bands where it uses those things?

73 John AF5CC
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N5PG

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RE: "Best" Sub $1000 HF Rig, New or Used?
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2017, 11:08:51 PM »

To revert to the original question, the Yaesu FT-990 has to be one of the all-time greats.
I've had mine since new in 2003 and it's been flawless. I did my 5BDXCC with it for example.
There's an obvious caveat given its age regarding spares but it's available for typically $600 or less.
73,good hunting:)
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GM1FLQ

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RE: "Best" Sub $1000 HF Rig, New or Used?
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2017, 06:41:27 AM »

To revert to the original question, the Yaesu FT-990 has to be one of the all-time greats.
I've had mine since new in 2003 and it's been flawless.

Like big brother FT1000D.

I would have a 990 today without hesitation - I don't need the twin rx of the 1000, just so happened at the time I had opportunity to buy one of the last new ones available..........& thought it would be unlikely to see similar build quality in new models coming down the line & I've had quite a few of these.......and they've all gone bye byes.  :)
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W8JX

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RE: "Best" Sub $1000 HF Rig, New or Used?
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2017, 06:42:23 AM »

To revert to the original question, the Yaesu FT-990 has to be one of the all-time greats.
I've had mine since new in 2003 and it's been flawless. I did my 5BDXCC with it for example.
There's an obvious caveat given its age regarding spares but it's available for typically $600 or less.
73,good hunting:)

990 was indeed a good rig in its day.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..

GM1FLQ

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RE: "Best" Sub $1000 HF Rig, New or Used?
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2017, 07:07:18 AM »

To revert to the original question, the Yaesu FT-990 has to be one of the all-time greats.
I've had mine since new in 2003 and it's been flawless. I did my 5BDXCC with it for example.
There's an obvious caveat given its age regarding spares but it's available for typically $600 or less.
73,good hunting:)

990 was indeed a good rig in its day.
 

Certainly one valid way of looking at it and "good" can give priority to different parameters.

I would have more confidence in the longevity of an (old as it is) 990 vs some of the contemporary stuff - for me that trounces any of the incremental performance advantages of the newer rigs.........but then I'm a regular amateur amateur, my kind of operating (and simple hf wire antennas) is such that I wouldn't be able to work anything on the latest that I couldn't work on a 990, or probably my KW2000E for that matter.   :o



« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 07:28:21 AM by GM1FLQ »
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