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Author Topic: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions  (Read 37041 times)

KD9IQO

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2018, 08:18:40 PM »

  The case for a tuned input remains as strong as ever :)

The eloquence of your summation is only exceeded by its brevity.
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HAMHOCK75

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2018, 02:46:25 AM »

Things get even more interesting. From a discussion on qrz.com dating from February 10, 2009 regarding the Swan 1200X amplifier without input tuning.

Quote from: W8JI
If the cathode happens to see a high impedance at the second and higher harmonics then the efficiency drops, the tube runs hotter, and IMD increases. This is why experienced designers generally put low pass CLC pi networks or some other network with a shunt C at the tube cathode as close to the tube as possible.

W8JI reasons for a tuned input.

https://www.w8ji.com/tuned_input_circuit.htm
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 02:53:37 AM by HAMHOCK75 »
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VK6HP

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2018, 05:42:47 AM »

A couple of years ago I had fun re-reading some of the classic references on power amplifier design (including Orr's very practical book) and it's good that your pictures and references will encourage more understanding and curiosity.  

I forgot to ask with what you were driving the amplifier.  If you're taking audience requests it'd be interesting to have a look at the driver output waveform at full power using a solid state radio and (e.g.) your FT101.

How long is the cable between the exciter and the amplifier?  You might be aware that one Collins trick was to use a long-ish cable to try and mitigate some of the dynamic load effects on the exciter 6146s, with a corresponding reduction in IMD.  For example, for the Collins 30S-1 input, 20.5' of RG-58 was recommended, if I recall the figure correctly.  There was science behind this recommendation but the same length was recommended (at least for a time) for the 4x811A 30L-1 without as robust a justification although, in my experience, the cable can aid stability. IMD improvements gained via such schemes must surely be second-order ones, compared with the much larger benefit of providing a tuned input circuit at the cathode (which of course Collins did).
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 05:45:57 AM by VK6HP »
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HAMHOCK75

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2018, 01:45:49 PM »

I am using a Yaesu FT100D as the exciter. My FT101EE is on loan to a new ham trying to decide if HF is all that interesting at the moment.

I suspect full power out means full power out of the amplifier? These measurements were close to that already. 28 watts in is about 280 watts out. 300 watts out was recommended by W8JI the designer of the amplifier.

Posted to www.qrz.com on February 24, 2004 by W8JI

Quote from: W8JI
300 watts is OK for four tubes on CW. You could get more, but tube life would be shorter.

Do you have an explanation for why extra coax would have such an effect? I am trying to come up with a simple explanation for why a short to the harmonics has the effect of improved efficiency, etc.

It seems intuitive that letting the harmonics flow back into the exciter means harmonic power is dissipated in the exciter, efficiency would suffer because the current pulse would have softer edges with the loss of harmonic energy increasing conduction angle ( ie moving from class AB towards A ).
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VK6HP

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2018, 04:12:03 PM »

I am using a Yaesu FT100D as the exciter. My FT101EE is on loan to a new ham trying to decide if HF is all that interesting at the moment.

I suspect full power out means full power out of the amplifier? These measurements were close to that already. 28 watts in is about 280 watts out. 300 watts out was recommended by W8JI the designer of the amplifier.

Posted to www.qrz.com on February 24, 2004 by W8JI

Quote from: W8JI
300 watts is OK for four tubes on CW. You could get more, but tube life would be shorter.

Do you have an explanation for why extra coax would have such an effect? I am trying to come up with a simple explanation for why a short to the harmonics has the effect of improved efficiency, etc.

It seems intuitive that letting the harmonics flow back into the exciter means harmonic power is dissipated in the exciter, efficiency would suffer because the current pulse would have softer edges with the loss of harmonic energy increasing conduction angle ( ie moving from class AB towards A ).

I'd been reading the latest skirmish in the 30L-1 wars and for some reason my brain was locked in that mode - apologies. Yes, 30 or so watts input sounds about right for full output of your amplifier operating sensibly.  For my 30L-1, 55-60W gets over 600W PEP with a (bucked) 220V supply.

Re the coax length, some text extracted from lengthier Collins material on the CCA web site reads:

"The 20.5-foot length of cable (furnished) is necessary between the
32S-1 (or KWM-2) driver and the 30S-1 input circuits. This is due to the
necessity of having an even multiple of 180-degree phase shifts between
driver plate and power amplifier grid. The cable length and the 30S-1 input
circuits together accomplish this. An even multiple of 180-degree phase
shifts is necessary because modulation components cause a change in the
resistive PA cathode impedance which is translated to a shift in reactive
impedance at the driver plate. The shift in reactive impedance, at the
driver plate, results in phase modulation of the driver and increases the
total over-all distortion of the system."

There's also a nice article by W5QN in "The Signal" magazine, available at the CCA website.  Download the whole magazine issue and scroll through to page 16:

http://collinsradio.org/Signal/newsletters/Issue%2071%203rd%20Quarter%20of%2013%20Post%20War%20(PDF).pdf

My own experience is that the IMD considerations barely figure in 30L-1 (as opposed to 30S-1) cable considerations, but the cable does help with the 10m stability in an amplifier that was, by design, conditionally stable throughout its manufacturing lifetime.

73, Peter


« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 04:19:29 PM by VK6HP »
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HAMHOCK75

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #50 on: February 01, 2018, 01:42:00 PM »

Setting aside input tests for a moment a test was done to see if it is safe to drive the relay input of the AL84 from a solid state rig. A solid state driver consisting of a 2N3904 NPN transistor was connected to the relay input RCA connector of the AL84 and driven by a Wavetek function generator. The measured relay current for the AL84 was about 94 mA. The relay is a 12VDC unit with one side of the coil connected to an internal +12VDC supply. The transistor driver grounds the other relay terminal to turn on the relay. The image below is the result. The yellow trace is the voltage at the RCA connector ( collector of the 2N3904 ). The blue trace is the Wavetek drive signal to the 2N3904. There are very large voltage spikes of +100 volts at the collector due to the relay turning off. The driver of the FT100D transceiver says it can handle +50VDC with up to 400 mA. so it would not be safe to drive the AL84 without modification.



To see if this problem could be solved by putting a diode across the relay coil to snub the glitch a 1N4002 diode was soldered across the coil as shown below.



The diode was able to adequately suppress the spike as shown below. This image has the collector voltage at the RCA connector measured at an increased sensitivity of 10 volts/div to see if any glitch remains. The fuzziness in the collector voltage is due to 60 Hz from the half wave rectifier of the +12VDC supply.



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K9AXN

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2018, 10:06:04 AM »

I am using a Yaesu FT100D as the exciter. My FT101EE is on loan to a new ham trying to decide if HF is all that interesting at the moment.

I suspect full power out means full power out of the amplifier? These measurements were close to that already. 28 watts in is about 280 watts out. 300 watts out was recommended by W8JI the designer of the amplifier.

Posted to www.qrz.com on February 24, 2004 by W8JI

Quote from: W8JI
300 watts is OK for four tubes on CW. You could get more, but tube life would be shorter.

Do you have an explanation for why extra coax would have such an effect? I am trying to come up with a simple explanation for why a short to the harmonics has the effect of improved efficiency, etc.

It seems intuitive that letting the harmonics flow back into the exciter means harmonic power is dissipated in the exciter, efficiency would suffer because the current pulse would have softer edges with the loss of harmonic energy increasing conduction angle ( ie moving from class AB towards A ).

I'd been reading the latest skirmish in the 30L-1 wars and for some reason my brain was locked in that mode - apologies. Yes, 30 or so watts input sounds about right for full output of your amplifier operating sensibly.  For my 30L-1, 55-60W gets over 600W PEP with a (bucked) 220V supply.

Re the coax length, some text extracted from lengthier Collins material on the CCA web site reads:

"The 20.5-foot length of cable (furnished) is necessary between the
32S-1 (or KWM-2) driver and the 30S-1 input circuits. This is due to the
necessity of having an even multiple of 180-degree phase shifts between
driver plate and power amplifier grid. The cable length and the 30S-1 input
circuits together accomplish this. An even multiple of 180-degree phase
shifts is necessary because modulation components cause a change in the
resistive PA cathode impedance which is translated to a shift in reactive
impedance at the driver plate. The shift in reactive impedance, at the
driver plate, results in phase modulation of the driver and increases the
total over-all distortion of the system."

There's also a nice article by W5QN in "The Signal" magazine, available at the CCA website.  Download the whole magazine issue and scroll through to page 16:

http://collinsradio.org/Signal/newsletters/Issue%2071%203rd%20Quarter%20of%2013%20Post%20War%20(PDF).pdf

My own experience is that the IMD considerations barely figure in 30L-1 (as opposed to 30S-1) cable considerations, but the cable does help with the 10m stability in an amplifier that was, by design, conditionally stable throughout its manufacturing lifetime.

73, Peter




Pete,

The first text in the bibliography “SSB Principles & Circuits” 1964 – Pappenfus, Bruene & Schoenike" is probably the most comprehensive description of the design principals of the 30S1 and 30L1.  What I have not found in any written material including the authors of the Signal and other Collins documents are the design intimacies of the 30L1.  The above text describes the ALC "Automatic Load Control" and has an unfinished schematic of the negative feedback/stabilizing system in the 30L1.  Also missing is the design review paper for the 30L1.  All three of the authors of the above text were in that review. 

Regards Jim

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HAMHOCK75

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2018, 01:21:30 PM »

While looking into why the Collins 30L-1 needs that 20.5 foot cable, I came upon this posted by W8J1 to www.qrz.com on January 23, 2011. He apparently bought and studied the 30L-1 along with other quad 811 amplifiers while designing the AL811 and AL811H. His conclusion about why that cable is necessary is completely different though.

Quote from: W8JI
AG3Y said: ↑

    Interesting, Tom. However, I ran my 30L-1 on 15 meters all the time ( almost the only band I used it on ) and never had a problem with it. Maybe I was just lucky !

You probably never tested for instability. If you are brave and fast enough to save the bandswitch, put your 30L1 on ten meters, open the input jack, terminate the output in a dummy load, and mesh the loading control fully. Key the amp and rotate the plate control through its range.

If you look at amplifiers using a quad of 811's or 572's, Collins is one of the few (Dentron was another one) that never neutralized the tubes. Three tubes are actually just over the limit in feedback capacitance to be unconditionally stable, and four is well past the limit.

Heathkit in the Warrior, Gonset in the GSB-201, Ameritron in the AL572 and AL811H all neutralize. Even the 3CX1200 A7 and D7 need neutralized! Only the 1200Z7 is unconditionally stable at HF.

It is theoretically impossible to use four 811 or 572 tubes without stability issues because the internal feed-through capacitance is so high (at about 20 MHz and higher) it becomes possible to make the system oscillate with the input terminated in 50 ohms and the output under-coupled, or the opposite with the anode loadline properly set and the input open.

The FL2100 even has this problem with just two 572's!!!

When an amp is on the edge of stability, setting of the tune control greatly affects IMD products. Collins came up with some utter nonsense about the phase shift in the cables and the input circuit adding up to 180 degrees (or some other number) when the cable was about 20 feet long to explain the widely varying IMD performance and the fact a lossier input cable could improve IMD.

This was because the tank Q of the exciter, plus the unstable RF feedback in the exciter, would contribute to problems.

If you look at the actual phase shift through the input system and the coax, you'll see how lame the explanation was. It was nothing but a snow job. The phase shift the wanted never occurs, and it is silly to think the phase would be stable from 80-10 meters with all the variables in the system.

The Clipperton L is a great example of HF instability. 100% of all Clipperton's sold can be made into a 10 meter TKTP oscillator even when the input and output are both on dummy loads.

There was a good reason Heath, Gonset, and others neutralized. When I did the 811 and 811H designs I bought a Heath, a Collins, and a Gonset model that used 811's to get a baseline. When I took the neutralization out of the Gonset and Heath, they became input cable length critical too, and could made to oscillate. In 811 prototypes I had to load the filaments with about 20 ohms of shunt resistance to make four tubes unconditionally stable with no neutralization.

http://www.w8ji.com/neutralizing__amplifier.htm
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HAMHOCK75

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2018, 03:18:21 PM »

I had no idea this 20.5 foot cable was so controversial. Here is a thread devoted to it.

https://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,110190.0.html

Today I decided to check the accuracy of the AL84 front panel meter in Ip position. This was done by using an HP6205C power supply to apply a negative voltage to the current sense resistor R7. The AL84 was unplugged during this test since no internal voltages are needed to do the test.

I put a Fluke 77 digital multimeter in series with the power supply and adjusted the power supply for current readings of 400, 500, 600, and 700 mA. on the AL84 front panel meter. The Fluke 77 meter read 360, 498, 616, 716 mA. respectively. Looks sufficiently accurate measuring current unlike the original HV accuracy. It originally showed 1,040 VDC as about 900 VDC. but that is now corrected.
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VK6HP

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2018, 08:29:22 PM »

I had no idea this 20.5 foot cable was so controversial.

Indeed.  It was with no small amount of trepidation that I raised it, HH75 :)

Pete,

The first text in the bibliography “SSB Principles & Circuits” 1964 – Pappenfus, Bruene & Schoenike" is probably the most comprehensive description of the design principals of the 30S1 and 30L1.  What I have not found in any written material including the authors of the Signal and other Collins documents are the design intimacies of the 30L1.  The above text describes the ALC "Automatic Load Control" and has an unfinished schematic of the negative feedback/stabilizing system in the 30L1.  Also missing is the design review paper for the 30L1.  All three of the authors of the above text were in that review.  

Regards Jim

Jim,

I know of no in-depth exposition of the 30L-1 design, apart from the material you reference and the much later CCA articles. My own suspicion is that the design was never, a priori, subject to the same high-level engineering expertise or scrutiny as was, e.g., the 30S-1.  I'm very attached to all my Collins gear and use it regularly but an objective radio engineer would find it hard to claim that the 30L-1 was the best-engineered box the company ever produced.  Notwithstanding, it was a pace setter in many ways and mine gets a near-daily workout, driven by a variety of old and new exciters across 80-10m.  Whatever reservations one may have about the design, it's hard to be too critical of an amplifier that still looks and works great after 50 years of regular service.

When I tested my 30L-1 after an electrical restoration, I noticed two things.  First, a low-level mains-triggered medium frequency oscillation (~ 1MHz) and, second, a tendency to signal-triggered instability on 10m, even when operated into a matched antenna (but not a dummy load).  The MFO was easily cured by some of the CCA suggestions, based on a comprehensive circuit analysis.  The oscillation, by the way, had remarkably little effect on the signal output and, I suspect, would easily pass un-noticed.  There are several ways of picking up the MFO but I just happened to have my old SM-220 monitor scope sitting too close to the 30L-1's transformer, giving a tiny amount of hum on the trace, upon which the small MFO was clearly visible as a stationary burst.  In addition to the standard MFO fixes, I also noticed it was beneficial to keep the keying line impedance low (use a relay or MOSFETs) and, for good measure, to externally choke the keying line via a few cable windings on a small toroid.

Turning my attention to the 10m signal instability, I concluded that my problems were not as bad as some commentators reported and, after a few more "standard" partial fixes and purely out of interest, I inserted a 20.5 section of RG58 between the TS590S exciter and the amplifer.  The residual instability vanished convincingly on both the monitor scope and spectrum analyser.  The length of the cable was not critical.  At this point, having a stable amplifier, I called it quits.

I suspect that, with the acknowledged conditionally stable design, the changes in tubes over the years (my 30L-1 has two RCA and two Chinese 811As), and a host of other factors that can impact stability (including grid/bias circuit component changes), it's likely pointless looking for very simple explanations.  The circuit should have included some neutralization but it's perfectly possible to have a functional workhorse amplifier in 2018, providing a few basic tests are done.  This is not a plug and play amplifier and is no doubt best avoided by the set who can melt 811As with a sideways glance.

Incidentally, I run my 30L-1 via a bucking transformer to give a 220V supply and 1.8 kV on the plates, via a Harbach HT supply upgrade.  It makes over 600W PEP into a dummy load with 55W drive, and displays excellent IMD characteristics.  I even have the "Tune" system working again, but actually never use it.  Hard to complain.

73, Peter.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 08:32:36 PM by VK6HP »
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K9AXN

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2018, 08:40:39 AM »


Jim,

I know of no in-depth exposition of the 30L-1 design, apart from the material you reference and the much later CCA articles. My own suspicion is that the design was never, a priori, subject to the same high-level engineering expertise or scrutiny as was, e.g., the 30S-1.  I'm very attached to all my Collins gear and use it regularly but an objective radio engineer would find it hard to claim that the 30L-1 was the best-engineered box the company ever produced.  Notwithstanding, it was a pace setter in many ways and mine gets a near-daily workout, driven by a variety of old and new exciters across 80-10m.  Whatever reservations one may have about the design, it's hard to be too critical of an amplifier that still looks and works great after 50 years of regular service.

73, Peter.

Pete,

Yes, the 30L1 was certainly not the best radio Collins built.  However it was at the high end of the amps that used four 811A type tubes.

Have a question, 55 watts in and 600 watts out sounds like the grids are directly grounded.  Normally the stock 30L1 needs 25 to 30% more power in to achieve 600 watts out.  What is the configuration of the radio?

Regards Jim

 
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HAMHOCK75

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #56 on: February 05, 2018, 01:20:28 PM »

I will not digress from the AL84 for long but this 30L-1 stuff is sort of intriguing. I have helped with a repair of the 30L-1 but never used or owned one.

I used to design solid state amplifiers and oscillators for commercial applications. What I recall is that I used a vector network analyzer to measure the S11 of amplifiers to see if they showed negative resistance at any frequency. If they did, that amplifier was conditionally stable. I never allowed such an amplifier in production though.

For oscillation to occur, S11 had to be at a phase angle of either 0 or 180 degrees.

Quote
As explained in Oscillator Design , oscillation occurs at the frequency where the phase of S11 is either zero or 180° (S11 is non-reactive).

Oscillator Design is actually the title of a book "Oscillator Design and Computer Simulation".

So if the 30L-1 does show negative resistance at its input, then using a coax to rotate that negative resistance as far away from 0 and 180 degrees ( ie  to 90 or 270 degrees ) does make some sense. It also means the exciter will influence the length if it introduces phase shift.

I think the first HP swept vector analyzer ( 8407 ) appeared sometime in the 1960's which might have been about the same time the 30L-1 appeared. If I ever restore a 30L-1 I would check S11 on a vector analyzer.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 01:23:54 PM by HAMHOCK75 »
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VK6HP

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #57 on: February 05, 2018, 05:59:43 PM »

Have a question, 55 watts in and 600 watts out sounds like the grids are directly grounded.  Normally the stock 30L1 needs 25 to 30% more power in to achieve 600 watts out.  What is the configuration of the radio?
Regards Jim

Jim,

It is pretty much a standard amplifier (no directly grounded grids), give or take the Harbach HT board (slightly better regulation I think) and a grid protection MOV.  I just did another quick check and, indeed, the amplifier gives an honest 600W PEP out across most of the HF spectrum, with a whisker more than 10dB gain.   I know the Collins specification is for 70W drive for 1 kW plate input but most folks on the CCA email forum seem to run at about 60W drive.

Previously, I did notice the difference between a Yaesu FL2100B (2x572B in GG) and the 30L-1.  I needed to drive the FL2100B at about 75-80W to get 600W into the dummy load, whereas 55-60W was plenty to get the same output with the 30L-1.  I read that folks who run 30L-1s with 572B tubes do in fact have to drive a little harder.  When the next tube swap is due, I'll substitute 572Bs for the 811As but, at present, the 30L-1 is doing well with the existing tubes.  Two of these are new (Chinese) and two are RCA, but all rated very well on my test set-up.

HH75, similar to your thinking, I have always assumed the input cable gave the amplifier a bit of phase margin at the most troublesome band (10m).  That works fine in cases such as mine, but it can't work at all frequencies.  I suspect that, historically, the story gets convoluted because amplifiers with other faults get folded into the anecdotes.

One experiment, which I'm sure has been done somewhere, would be to try swamping the input. My intuition and some first-order calculation suggests is that it is indeed the cable phase shift rather than any loss component that should make the difference although, folklore covering the full spectrum of possibilities, I have seen that disputed.

73, Peter.
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K9AXN

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2018, 01:07:10 PM »

H75,

Interestingly I have never read on this list the calculations regarding S11 or any other S prerogatives, IMD, or any of the measurements that would be needed for linearity or stability calculations for the 30L1 or any other 811A amp.  Also telling is the 30L1 un molested configuration requires 25 to 30% more drive to achieve the same power out compared to the directly grounded change.  That confirms the negative feed back is operating as designed.  What I hear is puzzling "Great, has improved amplification"???  Doesn't sound like a good choice for stability. 

Couple of measurements done with the original configuration.  With 1000 volts of plate swing -21 volts will be applied to the grid and because the same feed back is applied to the cathode and measures -20 volts there is a certain amount of logic that would be compelling.  If the negative feedback is working and the amount applied to the grid is close to equal the positive feed back applied to the cathode, would it not represent improved  stability, IMD, and linearity?

Regards Jim       
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HAMHOCK75

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2018, 02:37:16 PM »

S-parameters ( short for Scattering parameters ) were originally used at higher frequencies. They consist of S11, S21, S12, and S22. HP, Agilent, now Keysight has many application notes about both S-parameters and network analyzers.

Here is an example of S11 showing negative impedance. In this case, the person is actually trying to build an oscillator so they want to see negative impedance.



I prefer not to speculate too much about the 30L-1. Given what I have heard I have a working hypothesis but from actual work experience I have found that testing is the only real answer.

One reason is that there can be all sorts of potential interactions that can happen that were never intended and do not show up in any analysis but will show up in a real test. The tools we have today are much improved over what was available in 1960.
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