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Author Topic: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions  (Read 37042 times)

G3RZP

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #75 on: February 11, 2018, 09:47:01 AM »

Carl,

On 3.5 MHz, the 30L1 plate choke has a reactance of 880 Ohms. The plate voltage swing will be about 2400 volts pk-pk or near enough 850 volts RMS, or 965mA of RF current in the choke. Even if we assume the choke Q is 100, that's still just over 8 watts in the choke - in addition to the not insignificant plate current. As the Q is more likely to be around 50, we are looking at 16 watts in the choke, and in any case, an extra 51pF needed in the pi input network to cancel choke reactance at 3.5 MHz. The most likely reasons I can think of are that the physical size fitted and the choke series resonance is way out of band, although even that seems unlikely.....


Quote
I wonder if that plate choke as well as ones in Heath SB family amps had an effect on stability on any band.

Don't know. Could well be.......
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VK6HP

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #76 on: February 11, 2018, 07:37:39 PM »


I ended up working on this National Science Foundation grant. My advisor was Ward Helms.


Barney Oliver was a true visionary and embodied the best combination of business and scientific sense.  And I still refer to his small book on English style.  In any case, it looks like you landed on your feet, with some interesting propagation work.

I learned a lot of my radio astronomy from Bill Ellis, who also made major contributions to ionospheric science (google "Ellis Window" or see https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0021916980900367).  Bad dreams of the Appleton-Hartree equation still trouble me from time to time.

Bill detested RFI and its impact on his low-frequency astronomy.  In response, he developed a very clever "minimum reading" device to log true sky brightness on drift scans at ~15 MHz. He didn't like amateur radio, declaring that all hams should have been strangled at birth.  But he said it with a twinkle.
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HAMHOCK75

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #77 on: February 15, 2018, 04:36:38 PM »

The transformer mounting brackets were all replaced with steel stock twice as thick.



Add a bit of flat black paint for the OEM look.



Unfortunately while working on the transformer, I noticed the load capacitor shaft is slightly bent. The shaft seems to be brass so the real challenge is to bend it back with some precision.



Before I tore it down to work on the transformer, a quick test with high voltage probes was done on 20M to see what the voltage at the plates looked like compared to that after the pi network into the dummy load. The yellow trace is the Vpp across the 50 ohm dummy load. The blue trace is the Vpp at the plates of the four tubes ( 6LQ6’s ).



Using P =  ( V**2 )/R for the output power yields P =  (( 180/2.828 ) ** 2 )/50 = 81 watts into the dummy load.  Then Rp = ( V **2 )/P yields Rp = (( 1060/2.828 ) ** 2 )/81 = 1,734 ohm. This looks about right for four tubes.

where  2.828 = 2 * sqrt( 2 ).


Barney Oliver

Fate works in strange ways. Although I did not work with Barney Oliver on SETI, the work on the National Science Foundation grant resulted in my landing only two buildings over from Barney Oliver's office in Bldg 2U.

The last time I saw Barney Oliver was at the end of 1979 two years before his retirement. He was having a rough time. He had led HP Labs into a program which if it had been successful could have changed Silicon Valley. I sometimes visited the Labs where I met one of the project managers for that program. They were up against fundamental issues that could not be overcome. In the end, the program was written off as a $100M loss. Barney Oliver survived it but it probably would have ended badly for a lessor person. He was definitely a visionary person willing to take substantial risk for which he deserves to be celebrated. There are many stories like this in Silicon Valley but we usually only hear the ones that turn out well. There is a similar story that happened to a professor at Stanford.

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K9AXN

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2018, 12:51:15 PM »

Those numbers indicate the radio was very under loaded.  A pair of 6KD6' will deliver 275 watts key down.

What numbers do you get when loaded?

Regards Jim
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HAMHOCK75

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2018, 01:21:08 PM »

I do not plan to do any testing at power levels of 275 watts for two tubes ( 550 watts for four tubes ) due to increased failure rate from temperature rise and high distortion products in the neighborhood of -19 dBc as mentioned in the thread below. I discourage amateurs from running those power levels with two sweep tubes due to the current high cost of sweep tubes and the poor distortion products. As I recall, IM3 products that high would not pass current FCC requirements.  

https://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,117747.0.html

If you are referring the post with the 1.06 KVpp ( 81 watts ) test. That was the highest voltage my probes could handle. It would be nice to find high voltage probes that can go higher at frequencies like 20M but most are de-rated pretty severely by 1 MHz.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 01:28:07 PM by HAMHOCK75 »
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HAMHOCK75

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #80 on: February 17, 2018, 01:45:10 PM »

I made a jig using the leftover 8-32 threaded rod as shown below to locate the high point of the bent capacitor shaft. Once that the high point was found, the adjustable wrench over the shaft and a bit of downward pressure brought the shaft back to normal.



It may have been very lucky that the transformer was taken out. Hidden behind the transformer was this wiring harness. As the transformer was about to be put back in, just noticed two wires had been nicked though. The black wire is the 120VAC to the fan. The blue is a meter wire.


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K9AXN

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #81 on: February 17, 2018, 08:07:13 PM »

I do not plan to do any testing at power levels of 275 watts for two tubes ( 550 watts for four tubes ) due to increased failure rate from temperature rise and high distortion products in the neighborhood of -19 dBc as mentioned in the thread below. I discourage amateurs from running those power levels with two sweep tubes due to the current high cost of sweep tubes and the poor distortion products. As I recall, IM3 products that high would not pass current FCC requirements.  

https://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,117747.0.html

If you are referring the post with the 1.06 KVpp ( 81 watts ) test. That was the highest voltage my probes could handle. It would be nice to find high voltage probes that can go higher at frequencies like 20M but most are de-rated pretty severely by 1 MHz.

Sounded like you were under loading the amp and testing at an equally lower drive.  If so the efficiency would be improved at the expense of IMD.  Wasn't suggesting to run at full power capable. 

BTW, What is the inductance of the cathode choke?

Regards Jim
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HAMHOCK75

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #82 on: February 17, 2018, 08:31:34 PM »

Here is a link to the manual. As you can see a lot of actual values are not given including that of the cathode choke. In the first post, there is a photo of it. It appears to be a toroid.

http://www.ameritron.com/pdffiles/ameritron/AL-84%20Manual.pdf
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 08:35:02 PM by HAMHOCK75 »
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HAMHOCK75

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #83 on: February 25, 2018, 03:41:10 PM »

The front panel was taken off to repair a bend in the chassis under the plate tuning capacitor. It looks like someone has moved the position of the 15M coil tap one turn to the right. The 15M tap is on the third turn from the left.



It may have been an attempt to use this amplifier on 11M. Here is a photo of an AL-84 set up with 10M found on the Internet. It looks like the 15M coil tap is on the second turn from the left, and the 10M tap on the fourth turn from the left. The coil still has solder flux and lumps of solder where the 15M tap had previously been attached on the second turn.



This seems like a good time to do the 10M modification. I have asked MFJ for any directions they have for doing that just in case I missed any step.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 03:52:11 PM by HAMHOCK75 »
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W4BOH

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #84 on: February 25, 2018, 06:17:58 PM »

A really interesting thread and educational!
Thanks for that.
But I wouldn't even bring that dog home, let alone unleash an epic OCD effort on it.
My smallest amp tube is a 4-125A.  If I fire everything up, I can use eleven at once.
73,
Wilson
W4BOH
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HAMHOCK75

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #85 on: March 01, 2018, 11:56:06 AM »

W4BOH I'm sure you know the old saying that "one man's trash is another man's treasure" LOL.

MFJ did send the instructions for the 10M modification a few days ago. I asked Rob at Ameritron if it is ok to post that information here since it is their intellectual property. Just received the ok from Rob today.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 12:11:47 PM by HAMHOCK75 »
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W1BR

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #86 on: March 01, 2018, 12:26:21 PM »

I can't imagine why they laid out that PC board with the filter caps so close to those hot running sweep tubes!!!

Pete
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HAMHOCK75

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #87 on: March 01, 2018, 01:12:48 PM »

Somewhat related to your observation, I first wondered why the fan was placed where it is, not in back of the four tubes ( there is nothing on the back panel to prevent that ) but between the tubes and the capacitors. Then I read what W8JI had to say about fans only cooling the glass of the tubes; that the fan had no effect on the heat created at the plate which leaves as infrared radiation.

Too bad he does not post here much anymore, but I suspect the fan placement is to keep the heat from the tubes from the capacitors. My tests of temperature with an infrared thermometer showed no significant temperature rise at the capacitors.
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HAMHOCK75

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RE: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #88 on: March 27, 2018, 02:15:43 PM »

After making the 10M modification, did testing for efficiency. Plate voltage about 850VDC under load. Plate current is not allowed to exceed 0.8A per the AL-84 manual. Driver on 10M topped out at 85 watts.
 
   Band(M)   Pin(W)   Ip(A)   Pdc(W)   Pout(W)   Efficiency(%)
   
   160           61       .76        646          400         62
     80           55       .77        654          400         61
     40           71       .80        680          400         59
     20           67       .80        680          353         52
     15           74       .77        654          282         43
     10           85       .77        654          309         47

Looks like the tubes really suffer on 10, 15M due to the lower efficiency. Not sure why the efficiency was lowest on 15M but the 15M plate tuning was very sharp while the 10M plate tuning was significantly broader.

The tubes were 6LQ6's not the 6MJ6's that the AL-84 normally has.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 02:21:07 PM by HAMHOCK75 »
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HAMHOCK75

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Re: Ameritron AL84 Restoration questions
« Reply #89 on: February 04, 2021, 01:29:50 PM »

Not much has been done with the AL-84 for awhile but recently I obtained some 6MJ6 tubes that had been used in a CB amplifier. They were said to be good but were taken out of service for being weak. They were put in the AL-84 for testing and all worked but the gain was low at around 8 dB. For the first time, the AL-84 was tested with the nanoVNA.

There were some surprises. First, on the 160M band, there is more gain at around 200 kHz than on 160M.



Next, the 15M band has a notich at the lower edge of the band. That may explain why the tuning on 15M was different than all the other bands. The notch seems unaffected by the plate and load controls. I suspect it might be the series resonance of the plate choke.



For those not familiar with pi-networks, it is rather interesting to use the nanoVNA because it shows how the load and plate controls affect the frequency and shape of the amplifier response as the controls are adjusted in real time.
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