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Author Topic: Legality of Operating Echolink Thru Foreign Repeaters Question  (Read 17980 times)

KC0W

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Legality of Operating Echolink Thru Foreign Repeaters Question
« on: January 18, 2018, 11:29:06 AM »

 I'm assuming this topic has been discussed ad nauseam but I can't find any threads covering it.

 I recently downloaded Echolink. I was surprised to learn that Americans can operate thru foreign repeaters located in countries in which the USA dosen't hold any reciprocal licensing agreements with. For example Mozambique, China, Thailand, Brunei, etc. Perhaps someone can explain how this is legal since these 2 meter/440 repeaters are indeed transmitting RF.

 On the licensing paperwork of 12 of my non-reciprocal foreign callsigns it specifically shows which VHF/UHF/SHF bands/frequencies I'm licensed to operate on. Licensing information regarding 2 meter/440 repeaters is clearly shown on 5 of these licenses.....................I'm obviously missing something here. Please clarify.

                                                                                 
                                                                      Tom KC0W
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AC4RD

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RE: Legality of Operating Echolink Thru Foreign Repeaters Question
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2018, 03:27:49 PM »

I'm assuming this topic has been discussed ad nauseam but ...

I don't know anything about it, but it's nice to see that someone still knows how to spell 'ad nauseam.'  :-)  I think the misspelling is a lot more common these days than the correct spelling.

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KC0W

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RE: Legality of Operating Echolink Thru Foreign Repeaters Question
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2018, 05:53:46 PM »

 Thanks..............Guess I paid attention a few times during my 6th grade English classes. We were probably taught the difference between whether & weather that day as well.  :) 

                                                         Tom KC0W
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NO2A

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RE: Legality of Operating Echolink Thru Foreign Repeaters Question
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2018, 02:54:31 PM »

To my knowledge what that means is you could not go to China and operate as BY/KC0W. You can work China through Echolink because your signal originates from the U.S. Even if your signal is transmitted on a band you're not licensed to be on,like 4 meters in Europe, it's legal because you didn't transmit on that band. You transmitted on Echolink. Technically speaking.
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KC0W

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RE: Legality of Operating Echolink Thru Foreign Repeaters Question
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2018, 04:33:50 PM »

 After some deep digging round on the Echolink website I found this:

 International Prefixes:  Use this feature to control access to your station according to the international prefix of the other station's callsign.  This feature has been provided to help you comply with your country's rules regarding reciprocal control-operator privileges or third-party traffic restrictions.

 This user defined function limits which countries repeaters you can connect to via Echolink. In other words "self policing". I'm no expert but I can't believe no way/no how it's legal for Americans to transmit RF thru Chinese, Russian or Japanese 2 meter repeaters without said license. As I previously stated licensing paperwork on 5 of my DX callsigns specifically spells out the use of 2 meter/440 repeaters.

 Perhaps this whole thing is a non-issue but I'd be willing to bet many amateurs are accessing foreign repeaters in which their home country shares no reciprocal licensing agreements with.


                                                                    Tom KC0W
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AA4PB

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RE: Legality of Operating Echolink Thru Foreign Repeaters Question
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2018, 05:26:29 PM »

To my knowledge what that means is you could not go to China and operate as BY/KC0W. You can work China through Echolink because your signal originates from the U.S. Even if your signal is transmitted on a band you're not licensed to be on,like 4 meters in Europe, it's legal because you didn't transmit on that band. You transmitted on Echolink. Technically speaking.

By that logic, then it would be legal for non-hams to access a repeater so long as it was done via Internet or Telephone.

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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA

W9IQ

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RE: Legality of Operating Echolink Thru Foreign Repeaters Question
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2018, 04:50:24 AM »

Quote
By that logic, then it would be legal for non-hams to access a repeater so long as it was done via Internet or Telephone.

But that does offer an example of an activity that is permitted in the US, for example, when a control operator is at the control point and is continuously monitoring and supervising the third party's participation.

If that transmission is between two stations in the US, then there is no required third party agreement needed if the third party is from outside of the United States - even if the third party is active in communicating the message.

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 05:10:29 AM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

W9IQ

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RE: Legality of Operating Echolink Thru Foreign Repeaters Question
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2018, 05:36:27 AM »

Tom,

Quote
I recently downloaded Echolink. I was surprised to learn that Americans can operate thru foreign repeaters located in countries in which the USA dosen't hold any reciprocal licensing agreements with. For example Mozambique, China, Thailand, Brunei, etc. Perhaps someone can explain how this is legal since these 2 meter/440 repeaters are indeed transmitting RF.

I don't think the issue is necessarily one of reciprocal licensing agreement. In the US, for example, part 97 distinguishes between an authorized control operator and third party traffic.  This is a subtle point since if a US ham, who is not an authorized control operator of a station, passes a message that is transmitted from one US control operator to another US control operator, that ham is considered a third party in that circumstance.

Since the foreign ham is the one connecting EchoLink to their station, most of "liability" would reside with that foreign ham. While a country may not have reciprocity with the US, it may not necessarily preclude a US citizen (or anyone in general) from talking through their station via an Internet connection. The fact the you are a US ham is almost irrelevant on their side due to the Internet connection.

I would not preclude, however, that in some third world countries that they could view any person talking on a transmitter in their country. other than their directly licensed operators, as committing a crime - regardless of the location of the non-licensed entity. This could result in an arrest for those of us who are well traveled should we step foot in that country, a country with an extrication treaty, a sympathetic country, or a location where they are capable of carrying out an extraordinary rendition.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

G4AON

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RE: Legality of Operating Echolink Thru Foreign Repeaters Question
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2018, 03:50:57 AM »

I think it’s a “non issue”, although an interesting one. If the originating station used RF into their local repeater, and that happened to be linked via the Internet to a foreign one, then it would be “OK” as the originator would be within their licence terms.

This often happens on D-Star, where you can pick and choose which reflector or repeater to link to yourself. You would not know if a station in a foreign country had also linked their local repeater to the same reflector as you put a call out on, indeed you can operate via the Internet on D-Star (without using RF) in a similar manner to EchoLink.

73 Dave (QRV on D-Star and EchoLink)
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NO2A

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RE: Legality of Operating Echolink Thru Foreign Repeaters Question
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2018, 01:02:38 PM »

To my knowledge what that means is you could not go to China and operate as BY/KC0W. You can work China through Echolink because your signal originates from the U.S. Even if your signal is transmitted on a band you're not licensed to be on,like 4 meters in Europe, it's legal because you didn't transmit on that band. You transmitted on Echolink. Technically speaking.

By that logic, then it would be legal for non-hams to access a repeater so long as it was done via Internet or Telephone.


To join Echolink you must show proof of license in order to use it.
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WD4HXG

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RE: Legality of Operating Echolink Thru Foreign Repeaters Question
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2018, 05:20:54 AM »

To my knowledge what that means is you could not go to China and operate as BY/KC0W. You can work China through Echolink because your signal originates from the U.S. Even if your signal is transmitted on a band you're not licensed to be on,like 4 meters in Europe, it's legal because you didn't transmit on that band. You transmitted on Echolink. Technically speaking.

Disclaimer: IANAL (I am not a lawyer) so any comments here are used to guide my interaction with the
system and not particularly recommendations for others to follow.

It is not clear to me if Echolink stations are subject to the 3rd party model with a control operator, the remote
station access similar to remote internet accessed HF stations, or a mix of both.

For US ops I view it as being comparable to using a remote HF station which is made available to licensed amateurs
via the internet. You are responsible for insuring when operating a remote HF system that you do not exceed the
scope of your license ie: You do not operate in the Extra Class bands if you hold a Tech, General or Advanced. Also
when using  transmitters in another jurisdiction I am similarly responsible for complying with the government
authority with jurisdiction in the area where the transmitter is located. Just because I do not own the transmitter
does not exempt me from the local governing authority's rules.

Now introduce the Reciprocal Operating Privilege question. I would interpret that as being, one is responsible to insure
the foreign government approves your access and the FCC similarly sanctions your use of the foreign station through an
International Agreement. Each nation will have its own agreement with the US or possibly none at all. Most European
countries (http://www.arrl.org/files/file/cept-ral.pdf) allow US ops the privilege of operating without further paperwork
other than a copy of the CEPT letter displayed in the above ARRL Link, their passport and a copy of their license.

In the Americas IARP is the governing guideline for US ops wishing to operate extra-territory  in most of the Caribbean
basin, South America and Mexico. See the details at http://www.arrl.org/iarp. You contact the League for an IARP permit
which they issue at no charge to the licensee for members and non-members alike.

Is this all necessary? I have not seen a definitive authority state how the construct of Echolink is viewed and governed. And I
do not wish to be the guinea pig when any government decides to make an example out of the radio operator they pluck from
the pool they catch breaking their rules. So I will only use systems where it is clear the remote setup falls into the domain of IARP,
CEPT, CITEL or authority of other issued document of the respective government in force.

Of course if the remote stations are viewed as mere repeater and subject to 3rd party traffic controls then it would seem the
distant op owning the station in use would be the stuckee with regulatory compliance. As I said, I have en zip as to who does
what to whose cow for how much money in this. Being risk adverse as well as averse, the rule of the day is simply just don't
do it except with well defined situations.

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G4AON

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RE: Legality of Operating Echolink Thru Foreign Repeaters Question
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2018, 01:52:01 AM »

I think the last reply is way off. As an example... on D-Star, DMR, Fusion or other digital mode, I can place a call via a milliwatt transceiver to an equally very QRP dongle in my house, link it to the internet and talk to another ham in my own country via a reflector. I have no way of knowing if anyone in another country has linked their local repeater into the same “local” reflector I am using, resulting in my transmission going out in a country which has no reciprocal arrangement with mine.

Whether I connect to that reflector via a hill top repeater in my country, or via my own internet connection and flea power radio, or via a direct connection, the result in another country is indistinguishable.

The real issue is whether the repeater is licenced to allow internet access, it is not relevant who subsequently transmits through it. The repeater will be licenced for that purpose and will ID with its own local callsign. This is not the same as remote access to a foreign HF station where the person accessing it can use it as if physically present in the other country.

73 Dave
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