Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10   Go Down

Author Topic: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.  (Read 12330 times)

K1VSK

  • Member
  • Posts: 1949
RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2019, 11:36:03 AM »

We once lived in a home where there were no restrictions. The neighbor decided to open a motorcycle repair sideline in his garage. Such freedom to be a bad neighbor with no consideration of others isn’t what “freedom” means unless you care only about self-serving interests.
Logged

WB2KSP

  • Member
  • Posts: 828
RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2019, 06:15:09 PM »

We once lived in a home where there were no restrictions. The neighbor decided to open a motorcycle repair sideline in his garage. Such freedom to be a bad neighbor with no consideration of others isn’t what “freedom” means unless you care only about self-serving interests.


I was just talking with my wife about this subject. I am now 63 years old and have lived in the suburbs of NYC my entire life. I have lived in stand alone single family homes since 1957 (I was 1 year old at the time). In all of that time NOT ONE Neighbor has painted their homes in stripes, or tried to turn their house into a part time business such as a car repair service. Nor has any neighbor complained about my ham antennas (anything from wires to verticals to a roof mounted 5 element beam). Is NY more forgiving or rational or respectful of their neighbors or are the examples provided by the anti antenna crowd figments of their imagination? I have no desire to live in other parts of our nation and I am tired of hearing how wonderful HOA's maintain their neighborhoods. Funny, in homes I've owned, neighbors have never needed a third party to tell them how to keep their homes in good shape or how to act like responsible home owners. It's a sad reflection on our society that a neighborhood watch group is needed to keep out the stereotypical "white trash" or insure that neighbors behave like responsible adults. VSK pushes the idea that all antennas are ugly eyesores. He has the ability to live in homes which prevent the installation of outdoor antennas. Here's a clue pal, I'd venture that as long as the neighborhood ham is respectful of their neighbors by installing a reasonable antenna such as a single roof mounted hex beam as an example and not make their homes into aluminum porcupines or put up large towers on a postage stamp sized lot, they could probably care less. There are too many other more important aspects of life to concern themselves with. For the past 8 years I've been using two inverted Vee's which allow me to work 80-6 meters. One is mounted about 60 foot above ground and the other is up approx. 75 foot high. I am currently at 298 entities confirmed while running 100 watts. I have DXCC on 8 bands on CW,  Phone and digital modes. My antennas can not be seen from the front of my house unless one really looks for them. Again I say, if you have trouble with other hams mounting appropriate antennas on their own property, may I humbly suggest that you look into your own phobia instead of accusing other hams that they are somehow evil in their attempts to enjoy their hobby. Do not fear, If we had reasonable options not one ham would chose to live near you. Problem is that in most cases today we don't have many reasonable options in large parts of this country other than to move into a HOA controlled neighborhood.
Logged

K1VSK

  • Member
  • Posts: 1949
RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2019, 06:51:43 PM »

. VSK pushes the idea that all antennas are ugly eyesores. He has the ability to live in homes which prevent the installation of outdoor antennas. Here's a clue pal, I'd venture that as long as the neighborhood ham is respectful of their neighbors by installing a reasonable antenna such as a...
What you accuse me of “pushing” is simply the perspective of people who are not hams. I know quite a few...

We were sitting with a group of friends at the beach recently. I explained what ham antennas look like in objective terms and asked them if they would mind if i was their neighbor and put up an antenna. Some said they wouldn’t care while others said it would bother them seeing it. That you seem to dismiss the latter group is telling. Many consider an antenna an eyesore regardless of what you want to believe.

We all live where we want and under what conditions we choose. You have the same right but don’t enjoy the right to usurp my rights. The only reason anyone can’t live anywhere they prefer is the result of not looking very hard to find their little piece of paradise.

Parenthetically, we are not “pals”.
Logged

K7JQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 2602
RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2019, 08:25:27 AM »

David, WB2KSP:

Having lived in HOA/CC&R communities for the last 27 years, I try to keep tabs on this eham.net forum topic, and have posted my experiences at various times. I've seen where you are looking for a new(er), modern home in retirement, but are frustrated by antenna restrictions/prohibitions in the places you have researched. While I agree there should be nothing wrong with having low-profile, minimum visual impact effective antennas, you have to face reality, absent legislation to permit them.

The days of doing what you want on your property in new, densely populated postage-stamped lot communities are over. HOA's/CC&R's are here to stay.  If you choose to live in one because of their modern newness, you have to adapt your antenna plans. First of all, new communities don't have huge trees to support inverted vees up at 60 or 75 feet, so you can't hide them in the branches. Hex beams on the roof look like upside-down umbrellas with no fabric. K1VSK has a point that such antennas are ugly to the average non-ham. As difficult as it may be, you have to look at the other side of the coin when dealing with neighbors that are 10 to 20 feet away. Even though it's never happened to you, having a neighbor that indiscriminately has a side business like repairing motorcycles in his garage is a possibility, absent enforceable neighborhood restrictions. I know that I wouldn't like that. Enter CC&R's and the HOA's to enforce them. As I have related in other posts, other than my disdain of antenna restrictions, I've had no problem with the other CC&R provisions.

In my first two HOA houses, I managed to wrangle approval of visible antennas. My current home of 17 years, I've had to go totally stealth with attic dipoles and a ground-mounted screwdriver antenna. During this time, I've worked over 280 countries, and achieved some decent contest scores, my main operating preference.

Understand that I support legislation to permit "reasonable" accommodation of low visual impact ham antennas. But until that happens, I have no recourse than to keep operating with what I have. No sense complaining about what I can't do. I freely bought into these communities knowing about the CC&R's, and adapted. A tower and beam weren't on my list of priorities. If they or something similar are on yours, then buy elsewhere or stay where you are. Or, you may get lucky and find an HOA Architectural Committee that'll approve your antenna desires ;).

73 and good luck,    Bob K7JQ

Logged

N2EY

  • Member
  • Posts: 5698
RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2019, 10:11:39 AM »

We once lived in a home where there were no restrictions. The neighbor decided to open a motorcycle repair sideline in his garage. Such freedom to be a bad neighbor with no consideration of others isn’t what “freedom” means unless you care only about self-serving interests.

A few questions.....

1) No restrictions? No zoning, no nuisance ordinances? Was there no legal recourse?

2) How big were the lots?

3) How is having a motorcycle repair business in one's garage being a bad neighbor? Noise? Motorcycles and parts all over the yard? Something else?

In my neighborhood, if someone fixed motorcycles in their garage, the big issue would be noise....and the Township would be all over it, fast.



Logged

K1VSK

  • Member
  • Posts: 1949
RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2019, 10:31:12 AM »

We once lived in a home where there were no restrictions. The neighbor decided to open a motorcycle repair sideline in his garage. Such freedom to be a bad neighbor with no consideration of others isn’t what “freedom” means unless you care only about self-serving interests.

A few questions.....

1) No restrictions? No zoning, no nuisance ordinances? Was there no legal recourse?

2) How big were the lots?

3) How is having a motorcycle repair business in one's garage being a bad neighbor? Noise? Motorcycles and parts all over the yard? Something else?

In my neighborhood, if someone fixed motorcycles in their garage, the big issue would be noise....and the Township would be all over it, fast.




1. No relevant restriction. If there were,  they would be no different than any similar HOA ordinance/rule.
2. 1 -2 acre lots.
3.  Having an adjacent obvious business and particularly a noisy and busy business can easily detract from residential property value as well as limit the market of potential buyers.

The point is it happens, likely more than what some here might admit.

At no time in my experience where we sold a home where I had antennas did the purchaser utter the words “ gee, those are pretty, can you leave them?”  Or “ I wished I lived near those antennas”

Hams seem to think the concept that antennas are not aesthetically pleasing as antithetical and therefore somehow consider it an affront. I see the defense mechanism here all the time. Some take it so personally that they lash out with childish personal attacks.

« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 10:35:51 AM by K1VSK »
Logged

K7JQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 2602
RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2019, 11:49:00 AM »

We once lived in a home where there were no restrictions. The neighbor decided to open a motorcycle repair sideline in his garage. Such freedom to be a bad neighbor with no consideration of others isn’t what “freedom” means unless you care only about self-serving interests.


3) How is having a motorcycle repair business in one's garage being a bad neighbor? Noise? Motorcycles and parts all over the yard? Something else?

In my neighborhood, if someone fixed motorcycles in their garage, the big issue would be noise....and the Township would be all over it, fast.



3) All of the above and more. How about strangers coming and going at all hours of the day with their motorcycles? Not necessarily a "bad" neighbor, but one that is inconsiderate of others. Many Townships wouldn't respond as fast as yours. If one can tolerate situations like this, then that's fine with me.

That's what HOA's and CC&R's are designed to prevent. There's no right or wrong here. Anyone can pick and choose where and under what conditions they want to live. But for some to blatantly criticize HOA controlled communities and the people who live in them, especially having never lived in one themselves, is just plain wrong. It occurs on this forum all the time. Opinions are one thing, I respect them all. But criticism of those that don't think like you is another.

BTW, N2EY, I'm not referring to you, as you're just asking a question and clarification ;).
Logged

W8LV

  • Member
  • Posts: 421
    • homeURL
RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2019, 12:41:48 PM »

The HEADER MESSAGE of this Forum Reads:
“It's unhelpful to tell people to avoid HOAs and the like.”
If everyone had avoided HOAs and other restrictive situations, this forum wouldn't exist.  Please don't tell people how (smart you are because) you avoided these kinds of restrictions. Posts like these will be summarily deleted when reported in the future.Mike N2MG webmaster”

Yet, VSK (and others) go to the point of Arguments with a guy who can't find property in the Land of Fla where one can for example retire and pursue Ham radio. No thread locking (or deletion) takes place. It's a puzzlement.

When myself (and others) take him (and others) to task on HOA's, Lo and Behold the thread(s) get “automagically” locked. I'm surprised that THIS THREAD hasn't been “automagically” locked. But that's not the issue here. I don't take it personally. I LIKE eham. I even write articles for eham from time to time. But if "someone" is playing the "troll" card here to get threads locked, well that's just underhanded. In EVERY way. Again, it's a puzzlement. And not important in this post.

No one objects to safety issues with Antennas. No one expects to erect an antenna that can fall on adjacent property.

That's ALSO not what is at issue here. We all know better. VSK (and others)  know better, or they certainly should, even if they pretend not to.

When the HOA Apologists and Lap Dog types  expand the “controversy” to “yea, what about motorcycle repair”, they seek to cloud the issue, and include Ham antennas as a problem, therefore everything must be eliminated to keep the peace. Pairing antennas with EVERYTHING ELSE.

Our Legislation failed earlier on this issue, before a Half Nelson was given the Final Full Monty in the Land of Fla. (Coincidence? I think not!) But while HE as a problem has Gone Away, our problem has NOT gone away, despite "helpful suggestions" from VSK (and others).

We STILL need Legislation to eliminate all threats to our antennas. Well worded legislation. THE problem is the “Gladys Cravitz” types out there. Her “Opinion” on the “aesthetics” of antennas does NOT outweigh our need for them! Cutting off OUR ANTENNAS as hams is akin to cutting off OUR AIR. Over and above "stealthing" our antennas and so on. Someone else will say we we don't have a “need”, it's a want. But in this case? Gladys has a VERY arbitrary “want” merely because she "doesn't like how antennas look"  that is NOT a “need” for her, and Legislation will help her see the light though the antenna. As we all will.

What is important here is that More Than One Of Us is Mad as Hell, and We're Not Taking It Anymore. We want to be left alone in our pursuit of happiness, and we want Legislation to MUZZLE GLADYS CRAVITZ ONCE AND FOR ALL in EVERY Jurisdiction and HOA! Then we can put this to Rest. The HOA Apologists say "well you signed that" ignoring that for example a KID growing up in an HOA who is interested in Ham radio and didn't sign a thing, and NEWSFLASH: In the Land of the Free, we're ALLOWED to change things under The Rule of Law.

Sooner or later:
"There's Going To Be Antennas."
Everywhere.
That's just how it is.

73 DE W8LV BILL


« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 12:52:59 PM by W8LV »
Logged

K7JQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 2602
RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2019, 01:51:35 PM »

Bill, W8LV:

With all due respect, per your post #36 of this thread, you're the one that stated... "HOAS ARE A PROBLEM". IMO, the problem affecting hams is the CC&R antenna restrictions, not the whole HOA thing. Some people, including myself, don't mind the other provisions of the CC&R's. We all have choices as to where and how we want to live. But you're calling us "HOA Apologists and Lap Dog types" (I assume you're referring to me as "others" along with VSK). I don't have to apologize for anything, and I do kinda take offense to that. I see by your qrz.com page that you have a very nice house, seemingly with a lot of ground, and no neighbors anywhere near you. That's great, but I wouldn't think of calling you "Mr. leave-me-alone to do what I want on my land guy". Again, your choice...I don't care where or how you live. Have you ever lived in an HOA community that would qualify you to disparage HOA's in general? If not, then it *IS* "unhelpful to tell people to avoid HOA's and the like".

As I have stated before, I would love, and I have supported legislation to allow hams to have reasonable accommodation for outdoor antennas. It's the one *CC&R* (not HOA) provision that I would like amended. I made a choice, that no one has the right to criticize me about, to live in an HOA community and accept the CC&R provisions. I found ways to adapt to antennas that no one can see, and still enjoy the hobby...until such legislation comes to fruition. Looks like "the guy who can't find property in the Land of Fla where one can for example retire and pursue Ham radio" will have to do the same.

That's just how it is ;).

73,  Bob K7JQ
Logged

W8LV

  • Member
  • Posts: 421
    • homeURL
RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2019, 02:53:07 PM »

Please take no offence, Bob. None intended! You are working within the constraints of the present regulations, and there is nothing wrong with that!

But as far as HOAs being a problem, they are a problem. See the various posts here on eham, with links to YouTube videos of NUMEROUS problems that folks have with HOAs!

We seek through the Rule of Law, Legislation to provide relief for hams from ALL antenna restrictions, INCLUDING CC&Rs, and there are NUMEROUS examples of those being negated as well as HOA regulations,
not to mention local ordinances.

We're Not Saying "Uncle", Sam...

And THAT'S how THAT is.   ;)

73 DE W8LV BILL
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 03:05:14 PM by W8LV »
Logged

K7JQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 2602
RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2019, 03:44:14 PM »

Please take no offence, Bob. None intended!

But as far as HOAs being a problem, they are a problem. See the various posts here on eham, with links to YouTube videos of NUMEROUS problems that folks have with HOAs!

We seek through the Rule of Law, Legislation to provide relief for hams from ALL antenna restrictions, INCLUDING CC&Rs, and there are NUMEROUS examples of those being negated as well as HOA regulations,
not to mention local ordinances.

We're Not Saying "Uncle", Sam...

And THAT'S how THAT is.   ;)

73 DE W8LV BILL


No offense taken...this should be a civilized discussion of different viewpoints. But, respectfully, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. HOA's only enforce the CC&R's. Various eham.net  posts seem to confuse the culprit as the HOA's, when it's the underlying CC&R antenna restrictions they're referring to. Any other problems cited with CC&R regulations are specific to that person's  wants, and failure to read and understand the rules that they signed up for when they bought the property. Ever read internet product and other reviews? You can take the overwhelming majority of them with a grain of salt. But on the other hand, far beyond cranky eham posts and YouTube videos, millions of people live in such communities without incident, and actually enjoy CC&R protections. In other words, HOA's (actually CC&R's) are a problem to those who let it be. There are bound to be rogue HOA's that abuse their powers, but there's bad apples in every bunch. But you can't categorize them all as a problem. They have their advantages, but not for people that want complete control over their property to do with as they please. Personal choice...no right or wrong.

Now, as far as obtaining legislation relieving hams from *ALL* antenna restrictions, that'll happen when pigs fly. Why don't we just go for "reasonable accommodation" in the meantime ::).

73,  Bob K7JQ
Logged

K1VSK

  • Member
  • Posts: 1949
RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2019, 03:58:07 PM »

How many HOAs do not allow “reasonable accommodations”?

Absent some quantitative answer, no one knows if or how much of a problem exists despite the unfounded claims of a few. 
Logged

WA7PRC

  • Member
  • Posts: 2391
    • http://www.wa7prc.com/
RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2019, 04:04:53 PM »

How many HOAs do not allow “reasonable accommodations”?

Absent some quantitative answer, no one knows if or how much of a problem exists despite the unfounded claims of a few. 
Also, the definition of "reasonable" varies with the person defining it.
Logged

K1VSK

  • Member
  • Posts: 1949
RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2019, 04:10:25 PM »

How many HOAs do not allow “reasonable accommodations”?

Absent some quantitative answer, no one knows if or how much of a problem exists despite the unfounded claims of a few. 
Also, the definition of "reasonable" varies with the person defining it.
thats part of the reason this hoax has survived thus far.
Logged

W8LV

  • Member
  • Posts: 421
    • homeURL
RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2019, 04:50:03 PM »

"How many HOAs DO allow “reasonable accommodations”?

Absent some quantitative answer, no one knows if or how much of a problem exists despite the unfounded claims of a few. 

Yep, that's more like it!

73 DE W8LV BILL




Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10   Go Up