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Author Topic: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.  (Read 12326 times)

W8LV

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RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #75 on: June 04, 2019, 07:19:00 AM »

VSK said: "Unless your intent is simply to waste space, please come up with something to at least create the appearance of being meaningful"

Oh, The Irony...

73 DE W8LV BILL
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W9FIB

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RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #76 on: June 04, 2019, 07:22:57 AM »

When I say "within reason", if you move into a community with CC&R antenna restrictions (not "prohibitions"), I see nothing wrong with having low visual impact antennas that don't infringe upon the rights or safety of others. My definition of "reasonable accommodation" would be HF verticals and wire antennas, and small VHF/UHF yagis, period. I admit  that the only flaw with this would be arguments about height and number of antennas permissible...always something to debate. I don't have a magic answer for that. But anyone that wants to have a HF triband beam on a tower or roof mounted, on a postage-stamp sized lot with a neighbor ten feet away should buy elsewhere.

W8LV...who the hell is Gladys Kravitz ;D? You sure have a grudge against her!

73,  Bob K7JQ

A great example of specificity that would remove a bunch of burden in preparing to deal with an HOA if incorporated in the legislation. That is what is needed to head off a bunch of litigation. Well said!

FYI... Gladys was the nosey neighbor on the TV show "Bewitched".
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

K7JQ

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RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #77 on: June 04, 2019, 07:49:23 AM »

When I say "within reason", if you move into a community with CC&R antenna restrictions (not "prohibitions"), I see nothing wrong with having low visual impact antennas that don't infringe upon the rights or safety of others. My definition of "reasonable accommodation" would be HF verticals and wire antennas, and small VHF/UHF yagis, period. I admit  that the only flaw with this would be arguments about height and number of antennas permissible...always something to debate. I don't have a magic answer for that. But anyone that wants to have a HF triband beam on a tower or roof mounted, on a postage-stamp sized lot with a neighbor ten feet away should buy elsewhere.

W8LV...who the hell is Gladys Kravitz ;D? You sure have a grudge against her!

73,  Bob K7JQ

A great example of specificity that would remove a bunch of burden in preparing to deal with an HOA if incorporated in the legislation. That is what is needed to head off a bunch of litigation. Well said!

FYI... Gladys was the nosey neighbor on the TV show "Bewitched".

Thanks, Stan. I was hoping to inject some form of logical reasoning into the midst of the many fluffy and derogatory comments in this thread. But I'm sure there will be many that disagree with me...they're entitled. Just offering my opinion.

I should have known about Gladys Kravitz...I'm old enough ;D!

73, Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #78 on: June 04, 2019, 08:29:11 AM »




A great example of specificity that would remove a bunch of burden in preparing to deal with an HOA if incorporated in the legislation. That is what is needed to head off a bunch of litigation. Well said!



Lawyers and particularly government lawyers [FCC] avoid vague language whenever practicable  so as to ensure less work for them in litigation. However, it is difficult to write specificity into language which must apply broadly to a myriad of circumstances, existing HOA rules and varied CC&R language.

Additionally, there is a lack of clarity in terms of what exactly any legislation or regulation contemplated would be intended to fix or change in HOA rulesbecause of the wide disparity in existing rules and practices as well as the lack of any problem definition.

More important, many if not most HOAs enjoy flexibility in their rules which any legislation/regulation may adversely effect creating an unintended harm by necessitating HOAs to make prescriptive changes into existing flexible rules. The proverbial 'solution is worse than the problem' concept.

Advocating for regs/legislation is an overly simplistic solution to an undefined problem and as hams actually living in HOAs aren't complaining in large numbers, we are debating an essentially non-problem only a very few here can't face.

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W8LV

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RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #79 on: June 04, 2019, 08:44:29 AM »

Wow did you watch those HOA Idiots on the links I placed here? Or are you pretending that you didn't see the links?

HOAs ARE a Problem.

Saying that they are not over and over again isn't going to change this FACT.

Legislation will Clip their Wings.

The Book Offer is still Open.

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W9FIB

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RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #80 on: June 04, 2019, 08:51:46 AM »

Lawyers and particularly government lawyers [FCC] avoid vague language whenever practicable  so as to ensure less work for them in litigation. However, it is difficult to write specificity into language which must apply broadly to a myriad of circumstances, existing HOA rules and varied CC&R language.

Additionally, there is a lack of clarity in terms of what exactly any legislation or regulation contemplated would be intended to fix or change in HOA rulesbecause of the wide disparity in existing rules and practices as well as the lack of any problem definition.

More important, many if not most HOAs enjoy flexibility in their rules which any legislation/regulation may adversely effect creating an unintended harm by necessitating HOAs to make prescriptive changes into existing flexible rules. The proverbial 'solution is worse than the problem' concept.

Advocating for regs/legislation is an overly simplistic solution to an undefined problem and as hams actually living in HOAs aren't complaining in large numbers, we are debating an essentially non-problem only a very few here can't face.
I disagree. The purpose of specificity is to remove any differences that exist and have a uniform standard to follow anywhere there are CC&Rs. Not just HOAs. And to Bill's point, it would be nice if you can buy a property and do with it as you please (HR related or not). Not many of those types of properties left.

As to the rest, we know you don't want things to change. That is your opinion. Does not pay to argue about it. Move along lil doggie...
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

KB2WIG

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RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #81 on: June 04, 2019, 09:13:12 AM »



Well, if we need to arm the drones, we should use Maxim machine guns not Mauser.

T.O.M would be happy.


KLC
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K7JQ

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RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #82 on: June 04, 2019, 09:17:32 AM »

Wow did you watch those HOA Idiots on the links I placed here? Or are you pretending that you didn't see the links?

HOAs ARE a Problem.

Saying that they are not over and over again isn't going to change this FACT.

Legislation will Clip their Wings.

The Book Offer is still Open.



Bill, I think you should ammend your premise to "*SOME* HOA's are a problem", just as "Some" of anything in life are a problem. You still haven't stated whether you have ever lived in an HOA community. If not, then you're not qualified to make that blanket statement. You're basing it on a few dissatisfied residents on YouTube videos?? You shouldn't knock it if you haven't tried it. To some people, ham radio with large antennas isn't their priority in life. And complaints about other provisions in the CC&R's are usually from those that never read the rules before buying. They should have purchased elsewhere.

73, Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #83 on: June 04, 2019, 09:49:34 AM »


I disagree. The purpose of specificity is to remove any differences that exist and have a uniform standard to follow anywhere there are CC&Rs. Not just HOAs. And to Bill's point, it would be nice if you can buy a property and do with it as you please (HR related or not). Not many of those types of properties left.

As to the rest, we know you don't want things to change. That is your opinion. Does not pay to argue about it. Move along lil doggie...

Why "move along"? As I'm one of the few here actually affected by the rules as I live in an HOA, my opinion matters at least as much (and arguably more) than those who do not. Or never have. And if we want change, we can create it. We don't need others interfering where and how we choose to live. We neither need or want any help. The true "Alice Cravitz" types are right here for all top see trying to interfere in our lives but he/they don't see the irony of such a metaphor.

In fact, it is only the opinions of HOA residents which are important.

 as to the "do with it as you please" theme, there are numerous rules, codes, building requirements, insurance stipulations, etc... regardless of where anyone lives so that boat doesn't float. 
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W9FIB

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RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #84 on: June 04, 2019, 07:19:41 PM »

In fact, it is only the opinions of HOA residents which are important.

So those who are bound by CC&Rs or other restrictions and not in an HOA don't count? Interesting...

as to the "do with it as you please" theme, there are numerous rules, codes, building requirements, insurance stipulations, etc.

So there are other things besides HOAs that can effect property usage. I agree with you about that. Another reason I think we need to actually set a standard where one is needed.

But like I said earlier...we all know you don't want legislation for whatever reasons. (Some are hard to follow and/or contradictory so I won't try to pick out each one.) That's fine. You have the right to your opinion. But for those that do want legislation, their opinions/ideas, regardless if they are in an HOA or not, are just as important and worthy of discussion. When you start to dismiss certain opinions/ideas based on not fitting your argument, then your proverbial boat has already sunk.

And that's why it is time to move on lil doggie!
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

W8LV

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RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #85 on: June 04, 2019, 08:35:02 PM »

Oh MY!... VSK, That's just SO HOA FanBoy!

https://youtu.be/c5Y25FT7DxE

 ;D



"Why "move along"? As I'm one of the few here actually affected by the rules as I live in an HOA, my opinion matters at least as much (and arguably more) than those who do not.Or never have."

No. Your opinion does not arguably more matter just because you live in an HOA. How about YOU move along instead?
Because these ARE the Droids that we are looking for!



 "And if we want change, we can create it. We don't need others interfering where and how we choose to live. We neither need or want any help. The true "Alice Cravitz" types are right here for all to see trying to interfere in our lives but he/they don't see the irony of such a metaphor."

And There You Have the Tootsie Switch! What he is REALLY saying is that he doesn't want HOA'S being called out with Legislation so that the HOAS are no longer the only ones who will do the "choosing!" and this is (not so cleverly as he would like us to think) cloaked in speaking the speak of freedom FROM HOA Control. He then tries to morph Gladys Kravitz, "THE" POSTER CHILD OF HOAS, instead: Into their Foe! Irony of a metaphor, indeed! He does this because in conversation, when you mention an HOA Gladys Kravitz type, everyone INSTANTLY "gets" just what kind of HOA PIA individual you are dealing with!

(You can see what it is like to deal with JUST ONE Gladys Kravitz type, who has been given a little "Authority" HERE in this BONUS VIDEO!:)

https://youtu.be/t8YveThMHEM


Now, Watch someone Pull a Rabbit out of a Hat! Bullwinkle Fans Everywhere should Laugh AND Mourn:


"In fact, it is only the opinions of HOA residents which are important."

Wow! ;D

.....and in the the FINAL Ship of (a)Fool? He sinks his Boat of Logic, with the VERY TYPE OF REGULATIONS perpetrated BY the HOAs that we seek relief from, and PRESTO! It becomes "so" "regardless of where anyone lives!"

 "as to the "do with it as you please" theme, there are numerous rules, codes, building requirements, insurance stipulations, etc... regardless of where anyone lives so that boat doesn't float."


Super Bonus Video: Watch Bullwinkle Pull a Rabbit out of a Hat! Even after all of these years, He still does it BETTER than VSK:

https://youtu.be/kx3sOqW5zj4

   
And you know what? It's STILL unhelpful to tell people to avoid HOAs and the like.

If everyone had avoided HOAs and other restrictive situations, this forum wouldn't exist.

73 DE W8LV BILL






« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 08:55:52 PM by W8LV »
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AC7CW

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RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #86 on: June 04, 2019, 11:50:24 PM »

I looked at a property in an HOA neighborhood and I loved it all. No street parking, no half baked project cars parked in driveways, fantastically manicured lawns and trees, overlooking a golf course. I was jazzed so right off I realized that if one has a rig that operates entirely from a computer screen it doesn't matter where the rig is located other than network latency. I'd be very, very, willing to forego having an antenna if I could find somewhere in line of sight that would accommodate my rig, antenna, battery, solar panel if needed and just run it over WiFi. Latency can be so minimal with a setup like that as to accomodate QSK nearly. A rooftop of an industrial building or a property not in an HOA situation would do. Might cost a few bucks a month to buy the accomodation, electricity, etc. but to me it would be a very acceptable tradeoff. A ham clubhouse is just 11 miles away, WiFi might reach out that far even...
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N2EY

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RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #87 on: June 05, 2019, 06:13:13 AM »

We once lived in a home where there were no restrictions. The neighbor decided to open a motorcycle repair sideline in his garage. Such freedom to be a bad neighbor with no consideration of others isn’t what “freedom” means unless you care only about self-serving interests.

A few questions.....

1) No restrictions? No zoning, no nuisance ordinances? Was there no legal recourse?

2) How big were the lots?

3) How is having a motorcycle repair business in one's garage being a bad neighbor? Noise? Motorcycles and parts all over the yard? Something else?

In my neighborhood, if someone fixed motorcycles in their garage, the big issue would be noise....and the Township would be all over it, fast.
1. No relevant restriction. If there were,  they would be no different than any similar HOA ordinance/rule.
2. 1 -2 acre lots.
3.  Having an adjacent obvious business and particularly a noisy and busy business can easily detract from residential property value as well as limit the market of potential buyers.

Thanks for the information.

The point is it happens, likely more than what some here might admit.

I think the bigger point is "rules and regs vary enormously from place to place."

For example, every home I've owned has been in a Village or Township with zoning. Operating a business in place zoned Residential requires a variance - and the neighbors have a voice in whether the variance is issued. A business that involved noise and a lot of added traffic would not get the variance.

There are also nuisance ordinances. Someone who insisted on mowing the lawn with a loud power mower at 6 AM or 10 PM would run afoul of the noise ordinance, particularly if they made a habit of it. (The noise ordinance here states 7 AM - 7 PM IIRC). Or if someone does a lot of something that makes noise, even if it's not officially a business, they could be cited.

Also building codes and safety ordinances.

No HOA, no need for them. People are good neighbors without them, in my experience.

BUT!

I'm sure there are residential places without zoning, and/or without nuisance ordinances. Or, the town/village/township doesn't enforce the zoning and/or ordinances.

There's also "grandfathering". Every home I've owned has had properties in the area that clearly violated the zoning and/or building codes - setbacks, businesses in residential zones, etc. BUT - those properties predated the zoning, so they got a "grandfather variance". However, if the variance use were discontinued for a certain amount of time, the grandfathering vanished. (Example: An existing gas station in an area not zoned for fuel sales would not be shut down, but if the gas station became, say, an auto repair shop, there would come a point where they could not go back to being a gas station again. A year IIRC).

At no time in my experience where we sold a home where I had antennas did the purchaser utter the words “ gee, those are pretty, can you leave them?”  Or “ I wished I lived near those antennas”

Hams seem to think the concept that antennas are not aesthetically pleasing as antithetical and therefore somehow consider it an affront. I see the defense mechanism here all the time. Some take it so personally that they lash out with childish personal attacks.



The real issue is: "What is a REASONABLE use of one's home and property?"

I find it...surprising...that some folks will object to radio antennas on someone's home, yet not see the utility poles laden with power and communication wires that run through the neighborhood. Why is a dipole or vertical in the back yard an "eyesore", but utility poles running up and down the street aren't?

There's also the question of scale. A one-acre square lot is a bit more than 200 x 200 feet. If the house is towards the front of the lot, so that there's a big back yard, a 50-foot tower with 3 element tribander isn't out of scale with the property. But that same tower on, say, a 30 x 100 foot lot would be.

----

It seems to me that trends in housing in many places have become "amateur radio unfriendly" to an extreme degree.

I think about the homes I have lived in - all were built between 1900 and 1950. They tended to have large trees which could be useful for hanging wire antennas, but also provided visual screening - someone could put up a 70 foot tower, and you couldn't see it a few houses away for all the trees. Houses tended to be close to the street, with a decent back yard. There were basements and detached garages and fences. Each house was different.

My current house is one of dozens of "little boxes made of ticky-tacky" built here right after WW2. They were all nearly identical when built, even to all being the same color. (The only difference is that half are mirror-images of the basic plan, and some have fireplaces and some didn't). But, over the decades, each has become different - garages turned into living space, additions, porches, color changes, windows moved, landscaping, siding, etc.

I look at new construction, and the tendency is to have McMansions on tiny lots with no visual screening at all. Everything is wide open - no privacy. And everything so perfectly identical that ANY variation sticks out.

I hope I never have to face being in an HOA neighborhood.

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K1VSK

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RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #88 on: June 05, 2019, 07:07:17 AM »






I find it...surprising...that some folks will object to radio antennas on someone's home, yet not see the utility poles laden with power and communication wires that run through the neighborhood. Why is a dipole or vertical in the back yard an "eyesore", but utility poles running up and down the street aren't?




Comparing antennas to public utility structures is a difficult comparison in that most people would consider one a necessary evil providing a public benefit whereas many of those same people either never heard of ham radio or see no benefit of someone's antenna. With the current trend of buried utilities becoming more the rule than exception, the comparison is even less sound.

I'm sure you have seen the 'rat's nest' of power lines on poles in various parts of the world, notably many areas in India, which appear incredibly crazy yet the people there understand that is a necessary product of power distribution where they live. Maybe they wouldn't object to the occasional antenna hidden among the mass of electrical lines in the air but that's where the analogy ends.

Here, we have buried utilities for various reasons so any antenna sticks out the the proverbial sore thumb and no one except a ham thinks that's pretty.
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W8LV

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RE: D.H.S. and F.E.M.A.
« Reply #89 on: June 05, 2019, 08:18:59 AM »

Well...

I Don't Think So!

Ignoring the Obvious, power lines still FEED the power into VSK's Oh So Prim And Proper HOA and are present in the skyline. And then there are all of those OTHER Pesky Antennas, for telephone service and the like.

HE "decides" which ones are "ugly", and which ones are "not"?

And pretends like my rebuttal post never happened.
So much for Double Talk Mumbo Jumbo!

Nor have repeated inquiries as to the specific antenna setup at VSK in other posts been answered.
What kind of installation is at the QTH of VSK?
RF exposure limits all Hunky Dory there?

Or Perhaps it too, is buried underground?

Such a Dog and Pony HOA Apologist Show.
With all the answers.
But not to the Questions at hand.

The Facts are that most HOAs are a problem for hams (and MANY others) and that the Solution is Legislation to give hams relief from this Nonsense.

What do you want to Believe?

The Facts?

OR the look on VSK's face?

We must not allow ANY HOA Board
 (or Gladys Cravitz holding their leash)
 the power to send ANY of us to The Corn Field!

And what lesson have we learned here, about HOAs, the Golden Rule (he who has the Gold makes the rules) and the HOA CAI in general gaming the system and ignoring the Constitution of a Representative Republic where the Citizens have a right to Petition for Change?

That Homey Don't Play That!

And Sooner or Later: There's Going to be Antennas, everywhere. Everywhere!

My Offer to go "Halfsies" on "gifting" Former Senator Nelson with BOTH Gordo's Technician Class Book and the ARRL Antenna Book is still open...

73 DE W8LV BILL







« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 08:42:26 AM by W8LV »
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