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Author Topic: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???  (Read 9930 times)

K7JQ

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2018, 04:44:48 PM »

I believe it's a very real fact, and anyone can prove me wrong with verifiable evidence:

If you want to buy into and live in a newer builders' subdivision/master-planned community now under construction or built within the last 20+ years that provides....

1. The latest and most modern construction practices, codes, interior/exterior design, and energy efficiency.
2. All public/municipal utilities...no wells, water tanks, septic systems.
3. Close to desirable living amenities...retail, restaurants, entertainment, health care, religious institutions, schools, employment, transportation, quick emergency provisions, etc.
4. Cabled high-speed internet.
5. Common-area care.
6. Price no object...million dollar+ subdivisions included, even more so.

....You're going to run into CC&R's/HOA's that restrict/prohibit ham radio antennas.

I've experienced this in the last 26 years in the Phoenix, AZ area.
If I'm wrong, let's hear from naysayers, with proof..........

Maybe I'll move there and put up an antenna farm ;).

   
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WA7PRC

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2018, 07:09:40 PM »

I believe it's a very real fact, and anyone can prove me wrong with verifiable evidence:

If you want to buy into and live in a newer builders' subdivision/master-planned community now under construction or built within the last 20+ years that provides....

1. The latest and most modern construction practices, codes, interior/exterior design, and energy efficiency.
2. All public/municipal utilities...no wells, water tanks, septic systems.
3. Close to desirable living amenities...retail, restaurants, entertainment, health care, religious institutions, schools, employment, transportation, quick emergency provisions, etc.
4. Cabled high-speed internet.
5. Common-area care.
6. Price no object...million dollar+ subdivisions included, even more so.

....You're going to run into CC&R's/HOA's that restrict/prohibit ham radio antennas.

I've experienced this in the last 26 years in the Phoenix, AZ area.
If I'm wrong, let's hear from naysayers, with proof..........

Maybe I'll move there and put up an antenna farm ;).  

In other words, more requirements = fewer choices.
If your search restricted by your requirements doesn't produce any results, your options are:
1) Reduce your requirements.
2) Give up, and wait for government to abrogate tens of millions of contracts/agreements/promises/whatever.

Regarding the latter (so far), after several attempts over many years, naught. IOW, don't hold your breath.
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W7XTV

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2018, 07:40:25 PM »

I believe it's a very real fact, and anyone can prove me wrong with verifiable evidence:

If you want to buy into and live in a newer builders' subdivision/master-planned community now under construction or built within the last 20+ years that provides....

1. The latest and most modern construction practices, codes, interior/exterior design, and energy efficiency.
2. All public/municipal utilities...no wells, water tanks, septic systems.
3. Close to desirable living amenities...retail, restaurants, entertainment, health care, religious institutions, schools, employment, transportation, quick emergency provisions, etc.
4. Cabled high-speed internet.
5. Common-area care.
6. Price no object...million dollar+ subdivisions included, even more so.

....You're going to run into CC&R's/HOA's that restrict/prohibit ham radio antennas.

I've experienced this in the last 26 years in the Phoenix, AZ area.
If I'm wrong, let's hear from naysayers, with proof..........

Maybe I'll move there and put up an antenna farm ;).

I'm surprised you can put up anything at all in Gold Canyon.  Looks like you have a decent setup there.  

It can be done, if you do your homework and are willing to settle for something that doesn't require a tower.  It's not necessary to move to a trailer in Apache Jct. or a dumpy old house in Maryvale in order to enjoy ham radio in metro Phoenix.

I live in the one section of the Red Mountain Ranch area of NE Mesa that has no HOA.  The only restriction I have is being in the protected zone of Falcon Field, so the FAA is in play.  I can get away with anything up to the height of the trees (roughly 25 feet above ground), but officially, I'm limited to 20 feet.  I'm 130 feet above the runway, in the foothills of Usery Mountain.  I use a 40 foot Inverted L (10V x 30H) with success.  I do use digital modes for the most part, but at least I can get on the air with no hassles.

But if you're willing to live in an older (1970s) home with no "master planned" BS, much of northeast Mesa is good, with no antenna restrictions.  Dreamland Villa in east Mesa, where I lived for a year, has no restrictions at all.  Southeast Mesa is also OK for the most part, but can get iffy as you go further west.
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He speaks fluent PSK31, in FT8...  One QSO with him earns you 5BDXCC...  His Wouff Hong has two Wouffs... Hiram Percy Maxim called HIM "The Old Man..."  He is... The Most Interesting Ham In The World!

W9FIB

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2018, 05:18:07 AM »

In other words, more requirements = fewer choices.
If your search restricted by your requirements doesn't produce any results, your options are:
1) Reduce your requirements.
2) Give up, and wait for government to abrogate tens of millions of contracts/agreements/promises/whatever.

Regarding the latter (so far), after several attempts over many years, naught. IOW, don't hold your breath.

Exactly!

To say there is nothing that fits your needs is the big lie. Now to say there is nothing that fills all your desires is much more accurate.

Accept less or open up your wallet and pay the price that has all your desires. It is that simple.

Other that that, your whistling a tired old tune.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

K1VSK

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2018, 05:35:28 AM »

I believe it's a very real fact, and anyone can prove me wrong with verifiable evidence:

If you want to buy into and live in a newer builders' subdivision/master-planned community now under construction or built within the last 20+ years that provides....

1. The latest and most modern construction practices, codes, interior/exterior design, and energy efficiency.
2. All public/municipal utilities...no wells, water tanks, septic systems.
3. Close to desirable living amenities...retail, restaurants, entertainment, health care, religious institutions, schools, employment, transportation, quick emergency provisions, etc.
4. Cabled high-speed internet.
5. Common-area care.
6. Price no object...million dollar+ subdivisions included, even more so.

....You're going to run into CC&R's/HOA's that restrict/prohibit ham radio antennas.

I've experienced this in the last 26 years in the Phoenix, AZ area.
If I'm wrong, let's hear from naysayers, with proof..........

Maybe I'll move there and put up an antenna farm ;).

   

Interesting how you ask for proof when you provide none to support your claim. That seems to be the trend by those claiming they can't find a home. And when someone made that claim about my area, it took about 1 minute to prove him wrong.

You guys really need to come up with better excuses.
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K7JQ

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #50 on: August 03, 2018, 06:05:22 AM »

WA7PRC, Bryan:

You missed the point and purpose of my post. I'm not debating "more requirements=fewer choices". That's obvious, and you've made that statement countless numbers of times.

With many folks on here saying how easy it is to find a suitable home with no antenna restrictions, I devised a list of what I believe to be fairly normal requirements and desires when a family is searching for a brand new/newer subdivision/master-planned community home. And I gave a leeway of homes built within the last 20+years. Actually, with rapidly developing technological, design, and construction advances, a lot of people want something built new, or in the last 5-10 years. Not an outlandish desire, and why should one make major compromises when spending hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Using my stated list, I'm asking anyone to tell us about subdivisions/master-planned communities that have NO CC&R antenna restrictions. I'm not sounding off on the pros and cons of an ARPA bill.


WW7KE:

Hello neighbor (relatively). I'm not allowed to put up anything in Gold Canyon. What you see on qrz.com was done without HOA permission, and has been there for over 10 years.

I lived in a NE Mesa subdivision from 1992-1997, and a SE Mesa subdivision from 1997-2002 (both antenna restricted) before moving to Gold Canyon. Was your current home built after 1995, and does it have ANY CC&R's (even though no HOA)? You mentioned  you can "get away" with anything...". Does it meet all the other requirements I stated? The Red Mountain Ranch "area" is nice, but Red Mountain Ranch itself, Las Sendas, and any other new/newer builder subdivisions in that area all have antenna restricted CC&R's.

Older 1970's homes are not on my list, so that leaves those out. Many new/newer homes are built with high energy efficient ratings on insulation, windows, and higher SEER rated HVAC systems...all very desirable amenities. New construction techniques, "smart home" technology, design features like granite countertops are all now being offered as standard in new-built homes. Show me one of those subdivisions with no antenna restricted CC&R's. That's why I posted this...I haven't found any.

73,   Bob K7JQ 

   

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K7JQ

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #51 on: August 03, 2018, 06:35:57 AM »

You're all missing the point. I'm asking if anyone knows of any new/newer subdivisions/master-planned communities with six requirements that don't have antenna restricted CC&R's. I haven't found or heard of any. Just limiting the discussion to the above. I'm not debating the need to lessen any needs or desires.

K1VSK:

You proved nothing. You gave WB2KSP a description of a property. When he asked for an address to further investigate it, you wouldn't do it and told him to take a hike.

73 all,    Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2018, 07:15:03 AM »

You're all missing the point. I'm asking if anyone knows of any new/newer subdivisions/master-planned communities with six requirements that don't have antenna restricted CC&R's. I haven't found or heard of any. Just limiting the discussion to the above. I'm not debating the need to lessen any needs or desires.

K1VSK:

You proved nothing. You gave WB2KSP a description of a property. When he asked for an address to further investigate it, you wouldn't do it and told him to take a hike.

73 all,    Bob K7JQ
What you omit is that I found one property which dis[proved his claim and didbn't even have to look. As you seem fond of making declarative statements and asking others to prove you wrong, it appears you don't offer the same courtesy to anyone who disagrees with you. Adorable!
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K7JQ

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2018, 08:13:33 AM »

You're all missing the point. I'm asking if anyone knows of any new/newer subdivisions/master-planned communities with six requirements that don't have antenna restricted CC&R's. I haven't found or heard of any. Just limiting the discussion to the above. I'm not debating the need to lessen any needs or desires.

K1VSK:

You proved nothing. You gave WB2KSP a description of a property. When he asked for an address to further investigate it, you wouldn't do it and told him to take a hike.

73 all,    Bob K7JQ
What you omit is that I found one property which dis[proved his claim and didbn't even have to look. As you seem fond of making declarative statements and asking others to prove you wrong, it appears you don't offer the same courtesy to anyone who disagrees with you. Adorable!

You described one property and stopped short of providing any other information that would permit KSP to further investigate it. He asked, after Googling your QTH, if your beautiful (I also looked it up) home has CC&R antenna restrictions. No response, and you told him to do his own "due diligence" after telling him you will provide many more "examples". Read your own posts. Again, you proved nothing, and didn't follow through. And I am adorable...just ask my girlfriend ;D.

I'm not disagreeing with you or anyone else that there are homes out there with no CC&R antenna restrictions. I just listed a set of requirements, and asked if anyone knows of places that can satisfy them...new(er) subdivisions/master-planned communities that have proliferated over recent years that have NO antenna restricted CC&R's. I haven't come up with any. If I could prove it, I wouldn't be asking.

73,  Bob K7JQ
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K7JQ

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2018, 08:47:30 AM »

I meant to say "If I could prove myself wrong, I wouldn't be asking". Everyone's taking an adversarial slant to my request. Not my intention, nor am I debating overturning CC&R contracts freely entered into by ham radio homebuyers.

73,  Bob K7JQ
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K6CPO

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2018, 09:37:58 AM »

Let me ask a question of all the regulars on the Forum. How many of you think the average homeowner is aware of OTARD ( http://www.hindmansanchez.com/resources/article/fcc-otard-rule-concerning-satellite-dishes-and-antennas-questions-and-answers/ ) ???

When I had my business several years ago I dealt with homeowners all the time, and when the subject of cable tv prices and outdoor antenna options came up, most did not know that OTA TV was still an option. The folks that knew OTA TV was still available, thought they had to use an indoor antenna because of the HOA rules against outdoor installations.

So to answer my own question, I would say NOT Many, in fact I would say very few at best...

So what organization is threatened by antennas becoming the "Norm" in residential areas again??? The HOA's? CABLE TV Companies???

Let's see, HOA's are mostly non-profits with dues going into a general fund for the upkeep of the common areas/buildings that homeowners use. CAI represents HOA's and the industries that provide services to HOA controlled communities. CAI asked for some compromise language in the Amateur Radio Parity Act, but they didn't lobby for it to be Killed..

Now, suspect number 2: The Cable Companies... Do they care about ham radio? I would normally say, "NO".. But, I believe they do not want antennas becoming a "Normal" thing seen in the neighborhood again. AND!!! Sen. Bill Nelson has stated several times he is not a supporter of the OTARD rule.

So what do ya all think??? Is Sen. Nelson protecting the non-profit HOA folks, or is he a CABLE TV puppet???

I don't think it's so much the cable companies or other commercial television providers that are the driving the opposition to antennas in housing developments.  It's the misconception that as soon as someone puts up an antenna, the value of the adjoining properties is automatically reduced by 50%. 
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W7XTV

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2018, 01:14:28 PM »

I don't think it's so much the cable companies or other commercial television providers that are the driving the opposition to antennas in housing developments.

Back in the 1990s, there were some instances here in the Phoenix area where Cox Cable was "contributing" money to some developments in exchange for absolute exclusivity.  The CCRs in these neighborhoods were written so that cable was mandatory, and outside antennas of any kind, including OTA and satellite, were forbidden.  Those got thrown out in court in relatively short order.  This was pre-OTARD.

Quote
It's the misconception that as soon as someone puts up an antenna, the value of the adjoining properties is automatically reduced by 50%. 

Not only housing, but when was the last time you saw a new car with an AM/FM rod antenna attached?  I don't recall the last time I saw one, at least since 2010 or so.  People just don't want to see metal sticking out of anything.
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He speaks fluent PSK31, in FT8...  One QSO with him earns you 5BDXCC...  His Wouff Hong has two Wouffs... Hiram Percy Maxim called HIM "The Old Man..."  He is... The Most Interesting Ham In The World!

W7XTV

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2018, 01:23:47 PM »

WW7KE:

Hello neighbor (relatively). I'm not allowed to put up anything in Gold Canyon. What you see on qrz.com was done without HOA permission, and has been there for over 10 years.

I lived in a NE Mesa subdivision from 1992-1997, and a SE Mesa subdivision from 1997-2002 (both antenna restricted) before moving to Gold Canyon. Was your current home built after 1995, and does it have ANY CC&R's (even though no HOA)? You mentioned  you can "get away" with anything...". Does it meet all the other requirements I stated? The Red Mountain Ranch "area" is nice, but Red Mountain Ranch itself, Las Sendas, and any other new/newer builder subdivisions in that area all have antenna restricted CC&R's.

Older 1970's homes are not on my list, so that leaves those out. Many new/newer homes are built with high energy efficient ratings on insulation, windows, and higher SEER rated HVAC systems...all very desirable amenities. New construction techniques, "smart home" technology, design features like granite countertops are all now being offered as standard in new-built homes. Show me one of those subdivisions with no antenna restricted CC&R's. That's why I posted this...I haven't found any.

73,   Bob K7JQ 

Your choice of amenities is, of course, your choice.  I'm just not that picky.  My qualifications were that the house be in a good neighborhood, in good shape, and no CC&Rs or HOA.  I found that in this neighborhood.  Summit, the neighborhood I live in, is surrounded by Red Mountain Ranch, was built in 1994 but has no CC&Rs at all (as some neighbors with lawns from hell prove. ;D ).  Much of Mesa, south Tempe, and older parts of NE Phoenix qualify for me. 

And I like those 1970s houses, as well as the cinder-block homes from the 1945-80 era, if they're kept up properly.  Cinder block doesn't block RF either.  My house is stucco, and is a 20-40 dB attenuator, depending on the frequency.  No indoor antennas here.  I tried an indoor 20-10 meter horizontal loop once, and couldn't get across town.
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He speaks fluent PSK31, in FT8...  One QSO with him earns you 5BDXCC...  His Wouff Hong has two Wouffs... Hiram Percy Maxim called HIM "The Old Man..."  He is... The Most Interesting Ham In The World!

K6CPO

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2018, 02:43:27 PM »

I don't think it's so much the cable companies or other commercial television providers that are the driving the opposition to antennas in housing developments.

Back in the 1990s, there were some instances here in the Phoenix area where Cox Cable was "contributing" money to some developments in exchange for absolute exclusivity.  The CCRs in these neighborhoods were written so that cable was mandatory, and outside antennas of any kind, including OTA and satellite, were forbidden.  Those got thrown out in court in relatively short order.  This was pre-OTARD.

Quote
It's the misconception that as soon as someone puts up an antenna, the value of the adjoining properties is automatically reduced by 50%. 

Not only housing, but when was the last time you saw a new car with an AM/FM rod antenna attached?  I don't recall the last time I saw one, at least since 2010 or so.  People just don't want to see metal sticking out of anything.

My wife's 2017 SUV has a short antenna sticking up on the back of the roof.  It's about 8 inches long.
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K7JQ

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2018, 04:15:47 PM »

WW7KE:

Hello neighbor (relatively). I'm not allowed to put up anything in Gold Canyon. What you see on qrz.com was done without HOA permission, and has been there for over 10 years.

I lived in a NE Mesa subdivision from 1992-1997, and a SE Mesa subdivision from 1997-2002 (both antenna restricted) before moving to Gold Canyon. Was your current home built after 1995, and does it have ANY CC&R's (even though no HOA)? You mentioned  you can "get away" with anything...". Does it meet all the other requirements I stated? The Red Mountain Ranch "area" is nice, but Red Mountain Ranch itself, Las Sendas, and any other new/newer builder subdivisions in that area all have antenna restricted CC&R's.

Older 1970's homes are not on my list, so that leaves those out. Many new/newer homes are built with high energy efficient ratings on insulation, windows, and higher SEER rated HVAC systems...all very desirable amenities. New construction techniques, "smart home" technology, design features like granite countertops are all now being offered as standard in new-built homes. Show me one of those subdivisions with no antenna restricted CC&R's. That's why I posted this...I haven't found any.

73,   Bob K7JQ 

Your choice of amenities is, of course, your choice.  I'm just not that picky.  My qualifications were that the house be in a good neighborhood, in good shape, and no CC&Rs or HOA.  I found that in this neighborhood.  Summit, the neighborhood I live in, is surrounded by Red Mountain Ranch, was built in 1994 but has no CC&Rs at all (as some neighbors with lawns from hell prove. ;D ).  Much of Mesa, south Tempe, and older parts of NE Phoenix qualify for me. 

And I like those 1970s houses, as well as the cinder-block homes from the 1945-80 era, if they're kept up properly.  Cinder block doesn't block RF either.  My house is stucco, and is a 20-40 dB attenuator, depending on the frequency.  No indoor antennas here.  I tried an indoor 20-10 meter horizontal loop once, and couldn't get across town.

At least you came up with something built on the lower cusp of my 20+ year requirement...just before CC&R's became overwhelmingly commonplace and basically boilerplate in their restrictive antenna rules. One of my requirements was common area care...an HOA wouldn't permit lawns from hell. For me, there are some advantages having CC&R's, and HOA's to enforce them. An unfortunate by-product for amateur radio is antenna restrictions. I don't like it, but I knew what I signed up for, and operate within my self-created situation. So far, so good ;).

Thanks for not criticizing me with an interpretation of my post that others failed to comprehend.

73,  Bob K7JQ

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