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Author Topic: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???  (Read 9932 times)

WB2KSP

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2018, 07:48:14 AM »

WW7KE:

Hello neighbor (relatively). I'm not allowed to put up anything in Gold Canyon. What you see on qrz.com was done without HOA permission, and has been there for over 10 years.

I lived in a NE Mesa subdivision from 1992-1997, and a SE Mesa subdivision from 1997-2002 (both antenna restricted) before moving to Gold Canyon. Was your current home built after 1995, and does it have ANY CC&R's (even though no HOA)? You mentioned  you can "get away" with anything...". Does it meet all the other requirements I stated? The Red Mountain Ranch "area" is nice, but Red Mountain Ranch itself, Las Sendas, and any other new/newer builder subdivisions in that area all have antenna restricted CC&R's.

Older 1970's homes are not on my list, so that leaves those out. Many new/newer homes are built with high energy efficient ratings on insulation, windows, and higher SEER rated HVAC systems...all very desirable amenities. New construction techniques, "smart home" technology, design features like granite countertops are all now being offered as standard in new-built homes. Show me one of those subdivisions with no antenna restricted CC&R's. That's why I posted this...I haven't found any.

73,   Bob K7JQ 

Your choice of amenities is, of course, your choice.  I'm just not that picky.  My qualifications were that the house be in a good neighborhood, in good shape, and no CC&Rs or HOA.  I found that in this neighborhood.  Summit, the neighborhood I live in, is surrounded by Red Mountain Ranch, was built in 1994 but has no CC&Rs at all (as some neighbors with lawns from hell prove. ;D ).  Much of Mesa, south Tempe, and older parts of NE Phoenix qualify for me. 

And I like those 1970s houses, as well as the cinder-block homes from the 1945-80 era, if they're kept up properly.  Cinder block doesn't block RF either.  My house is stucco, and is a 20-40 dB attenuator, depending on the frequency.  No indoor antennas here.  I tried an indoor 20-10 meter horizontal loop once, and couldn't get across town.

At least you came up with something built on the lower cusp of my 20+ year requirement...just before CC&R's became overwhelmingly commonplace and basically boilerplate in their restrictive antenna rules. One of my requirements was common area care...an HOA wouldn't permit lawns from hell. For me, there are some advantages having CC&R's, and HOA's to enforce them. An unfortunate by-product for amateur radio is antenna restrictions. I don't like it, but I knew what I signed up for, and operate within my self-created situation. So far, so good ;).

Thanks for not criticizing me with an interpretation of my post that others failed to comprehend.

73,  Bob K7JQ



I'm specifically looking for a home to retire to. Following this move I have no further plans to live elsewhere. I would stay where I am but the property taxes alone are prohibitively high (between 16 and 17,000 a year). I am probably on the lower end in my community so that should give you an idea of what the taxes are like. State tax is no longer deductible and on and on.  My house was built in 1985 and so is about as old as I'd like to go when I move. In the areas I've looked at, there are no homes being built which allow a homeowner to install an antenna. I will not move into a home which, number one needs updating and number 2 isn't at least as new as my current home and which isn't in a rural area. That may be fine for others. I have learned to live with the creature comforts of my suburban neighborhood. I'm sure we will eventually find something but as of today we've yet to find that home.
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K1VSK

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #61 on: August 04, 2018, 09:00:30 AM »




 In the areas I've looked at, there are no homes being built which allow a homeowner to install an antenna.
Is that an error of commission? You recently admitted that was a "mistake to say that" but rather you simply didn't find any in what you implied was a limited search. Perpetuating myths seems to be your goal here. It's disingenuous to blame others for a lack of effort.

Regardless, HOA expansion will continue in large part because people (except some hams) continue to buy even though they have alternative choices and the repeated effort to usurp the rules for a hobby has once again failed.

Look at it another way - any fool with enough money and little effort and can buy obtrusive antennas and work DX. The enjoyment and greater sense of accomplishment comes to those who overcome whatever challenges exist.
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WB2KSP

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #62 on: August 04, 2018, 10:11:58 AM »




 In the areas I've looked at, there are no homes being built which allow a homeowner to install an antenna.
Is that an error of commission? You recently admitted that was a "mistake to say that" but rather you simply didn't find any in what you implied was a limited search. Perpetuating myths seems to be your goal here. It's disingenuous to blame others for a lack of effort.

Regardless, HOA expansion will continue in large part because people (except some hams) continue to buy even though they have alternative choices and the repeated effort to usurp the rules for a hobby has once again failed.

Look at it another way - any fool with enough money and little effort and can buy obtrusive antennas and work DX. The enjoyment and greater sense of accomplishment comes to those who overcome whatever challenges exist.


You still haven't answered my question, Is your home in an HOA controlled neighborhood which disallows you from using an outside antenna?You are so fixated on proving me wrong (for some strange reason as though that proves you right-Very childish behavior) that you have failed to answer any of the questions which I has asked. It's obvious to the reader what is going on here.
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K7JQ

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2018, 10:41:49 AM »




 In the areas I've looked at, there are no homes being built which allow a homeowner to install an antenna.
Is that an error of commission? You recently admitted that was a "mistake to say that" but rather you simply didn't find any in what you implied was a limited search. Perpetuating myths seems to be your goal here. It's disingenuous to blame others for a lack of effort.

Regardless, HOA expansion will continue in large part because people (except some hams) continue to buy even though they have alternative choices and the repeated effort to usurp the rules for a hobby has once again failed.

Look at it another way - any fool with enough money and little effort and can buy obtrusive antennas and work DX. The enjoyment and greater sense of accomplishment comes to those who overcome whatever challenges exist.


You still haven't answered my question, Is your home in an HOA controlled neighborhood which disallows you from using an outside antenna?You are so fixated on proving me wrong (for some strange reason as though that proves you right-Very childish behavior) that you have failed to answer any of the questions which I has asked. It's obvious to the reader what is going on here.

I asked him to follow up on your same question...no response. As far as I'm concerned, he's just blowing smoke, and I take his posts with a grain of salt.
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WB2KSP

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2018, 12:35:56 PM »




 In the areas I've looked at, there are no homes being built which allow a homeowner to install an antenna.
Is that an error of commission? You recently admitted that was a "mistake to say that" but rather you simply didn't find any in what you implied was a limited search. Perpetuating myths seems to be your goal here. It's disingenuous to blame others for a lack of effort.

Regardless, HOA expansion will continue in large part because people (except some hams) continue to buy even though they have alternative choices and the repeated effort to usurp the rules for a hobby has once again failed.

Look at it another way - any fool with enough money and little effort and can buy obtrusive antennas and work DX. The enjoyment and greater sense of accomplishment comes to those who overcome whatever challenges exist.


You still haven't answered my question, Is your home in an HOA controlled neighborhood which disallows you from using an outside antenna?You are so fixated on proving me wrong (for some strange reason as though that proves you right-Very childish behavior) that you have failed to answer any of the questions which I has asked. It's obvious to the reader what is going on here.

I asked him to follow up on your same question...no response. As far as I'm concerned, he's just blowing smoke, and I take his posts with a grain of salt.

Where's the "thumbs up" icon? I'm not trying to win a war of words. I am trying to find a retirement home in a middle class neighborhood which doesn't restrict the installation (I wouldn't fight a demand for a professional installer if that's what was demanded) of a reasonable HF antenna. I had a 5 element beam on the roof of my old home and a HF2 vertical in the back yard (which I eventually swapped out for a 80/40 inverted V (which I found far more effective). Today I have both the 80/40 V and a 20 meter V up. The 20 meter is about 75 feet in the air thanks to a sling shot and some nice trees. Not every community offers such natural tall structures which is why I'd want to install a roof mounted beam (which would allow me to operate at 100 watts without the need for a amp) Today with my antennas basically whatever I hear I can work (I'm at 298 confirmed entities).  I've had no need for an amp. If it came down to a low mounted wire antenna where I could hear many stations but not work them with my 100 watts, I'd have to get an amp which would increase the possibilities of interference. I legally could run 1500 watts now but what would be the purpose?. By forcing us to use attic mounted or other hidden ineffective antennas that would increase the need to run higher power, the HOA boards would also raise the chance of interference which is part of what these groups fear. That's the result of dealing with people who don't have the slightest idea about propagation or how radio works. I don't care that some people believe that their attic mounted antenna is the greatest thing in the world. It can not compare with even a wire antenna mounted 60, 70, 80 or more feet in the air. I've run low mounted wire antennas and I can report without question that my antennas with appropriate baluns, 60 - 75 feet above ground run circles around externally mounted wire antennas, 15 to 25 feet above ground and those low mounted outside antennas would outperform wire antennas mounted in an attic of a newer home with new roofing shingles.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 12:41:49 PM by WB2KSP »
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K1VSK

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2018, 03:01:25 PM »




 In the areas I've looked at, there are no homes being built which allow a homeowner to install an antenna.
Is that an error of commission? You recently admitted that was a "mistake to say that" but rather you simply didn't find any in what you implied was a limited search. Perpetuating myths seems to be your goal here. It's disingenuous to blame others for a lack of effort.

Regardless, HOA expansion will continue in large part because people (except some hams) continue to buy even though they have alternative choices and the repeated effort to usurp the rules for a hobby has once again failed.

Look at it another way - any fool with enough money and little effort and can buy obtrusive antennas and work DX. The enjoyment and greater sense of accomplishment comes to those who overcome whatever challenges exist.


You still haven't answered my question, Is your home in an HOA controlled neighborhood which disallows you from using an outside antenna?You are so fixated on proving me wrong (for some strange reason as though that proves you right-Very childish behavior) that you have failed to answer any of the questions which I has asked. It's obvious to the reader what is going on here.

I asked him to follow up on your same question...no response. As far as I'm concerned, he's just blowing smoke, and I take his posts with a grain of salt.
I wasn't talking to you. Don't interrupt and especially when all you do is criticize and insult.
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WA7PRC

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2018, 03:28:05 PM »

You still haven't answered my question, Is your home in an HOA controlled neighborhood which disallows you from using an outside antenna? You are so fixated on proving me wrong (for some strange reason as though that proves you right-Very childish behavior) that you have failed to answer any of the questions which I has asked. It's obvious to the reader what is going on here.
IOW, when you run out of argument (or not), attack your opponent.
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WB2KSP

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2018, 06:54:22 PM »




 In the areas I've looked at, there are no homes being built which allow a homeowner to install an antenna.
Is that an error of commission? You recently admitted that was a "mistake to say that" but rather you simply didn't find any in what you implied was a limited search. Perpetuating myths seems to be your goal here. It's disingenuous to blame others for a lack of effort.

Regardless, HOA expansion will continue in large part because people (except some hams) continue to buy even though they have alternative choices and the repeated effort to usurp the rules for a hobby has once again failed.

Look at it another way - any fool with enough money and little effort and can buy obtrusive antennas and work DX. The enjoyment and greater sense of accomplishment comes to those who overcome whatever challenges exist.


You still haven't answered my question, Is your home in an HOA controlled neighborhood which disallows you from using an outside antenna?You are so fixated on proving me wrong (for some strange reason as though that proves you right-Very childish behavior) that you have failed to answer any of the questions which I has asked. It's obvious to the reader what is going on here.

I asked him to follow up on your same question...no response. As far as I'm concerned, he's just blowing smoke, and I take his posts with a grain of salt.
I wasn't talking to you. Don't interrupt and especially when all you do is criticize and insult.


Looks like you've touched a raw nerve. Someone is upset here and when you think about it, we're only discussing a hobby.
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WA7PRC

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2018, 07:11:00 PM »

... and when you think about it, we're only discussing a hobby.
... and there is no NEED for legislation.
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K7JQ

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2018, 07:20:01 PM »

... and when you think about it, we're only discussing a hobby.
... and there is no NEED for legislation.

Makes no difference now...latest bill is squashed. I'm out...don't want to raise anyone's blood pressure ;D.
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WA7PRC

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2018, 07:31:58 PM »

... and when you think about it, we're only discussing a hobby.
... and there is no NEED for legislation.

Makes no difference now...latest bill is squashed. I'm out...don't want to raise anyone's blood pressure ;D.
As written, if enacted, it also would've made no difference. I guess those w/ HOAs (and HOA's) will just continue to deal with it as you have.  :)
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KC2QYM

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2018, 11:57:51 PM »

Do people who chose to live in restricted covenant developments deserve to be visually assaulted with antennas; and another aspect which no one seems to mention is excessive RF exposure to residents?  The ARRL constantly pushes awareness of the environmental aspect of RF exposure in license testing questions  but not a peep when it comes to the parity act.  At least I never see this aspect discussed.  Why?  Because the ARRL and sycophant hams want to continue the myth that every ham radio operator/station is a potential emergency station. That the nation needs these radio communications resources as a foundation for emergency communications.  When it comes down to it the only exemption for a ham living in an HOA to be allowed to erect some antenna system is proof that said individual is indeed an ACTIVE member of ARES, RACES, etc.  If they can't prove their active status then no antenna.  Why should every ham who chooses to abide in an HOA have the ability to put up antennas for idle weather report chit chat nets, etc.? So much noise on this subject has been generated at the instigation of the ARRL.  Ham radio is a hobby where only a small percentage of the hobbyists are actively engaged in emergency volunteerism.  Most of the emergency radio communications occur on the VHF/UHF portions so antennas can conceivably be low profile. However, if I were a parent of a small infant or child living in an HOA using an upstairs bedroom and sharing a common roof with a ham running a 50 watt UHF signal..I too would not want that ham running his radio.  Again, the ARRL's hypocrisy on this subject is incredible. They'll do anything possible to promote ham radio even if they have to obfuscate the truth.
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WB2KSP

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #72 on: August 05, 2018, 04:19:51 AM »

Do people who chose to live in restricted covenant developments deserve to be visually assaulted with antennas; and another aspect which no one seems to mention is excessive RF exposure to residents?  The ARRL constantly pushes awareness of the environmental aspect of RF exposure in license testing questions  but not a peep when it comes to the parity act.  At least I never see this aspect discussed.  Why?  Because the ARRL and sycophant hams want to continue the myth that every ham radio operator/station is a potential emergency station. That the nation needs these radio communications resources as a foundation for emergency communications.  When it comes down to it the only exemption for a ham living in an HOA to be allowed to erect some antenna system is proof that said individual is indeed an ACTIVE member of ARES, RACES, etc.  If they can't prove their active status then no antenna.  Why should every ham who chooses to abide in an HOA have the ability to put up antennas for idle weather report chit chat nets, etc.? So much noise on this subject has been generated at the instigation of the ARRL.  Ham radio is a hobby where only a small percentage of the hobbyists are actively engaged in emergency volunteerism.  Most of the emergency radio communications occur on the VHF/UHF portions so antennas can conceivably be low profile. However, if I were a parent of a small infant or child living in an HOA using an upstairs bedroom and sharing a common roof with a ham running a 50 watt UHF signal..I too would not want that ham running his radio.  Again, the ARRL's hypocrisy on this subject is incredible. They'll do anything possible to promote ham radio even if they have to obfuscate the truth.

If you are going to get involved in the conversation perhaps you could spend the time to  reply to an ongoing conversation instead of copying and pasting the same comment in each thread. You obviously don't have a understanding of ham radio and the effect of RF on the bystander. You live in NJ and are subject to far greater levels of RF than any ham can produce. WABC alone in Lodi on Rt 17 runs 50,000 watts non directional 24 hours a day and within a few miles of you there are many directional arrays, some of who's ERP runs much higher. Then there's all the Cell Phone activity and the RF created by microwave ovens and on and on. Perhaps you might consider taking a course in RF and it's nearfield effect on the human body. By the way, there is plenty of health and rescue activity on HF. I don't know what your experience is but They used HF during Katrina, Sandy, the recent Indian earthquake and in Haiti as well as many other natural disasters. VHF/UHF only represents a portion of amateur radios use in emergency situations. Yes, Ham Radio is a hobby. There is nothing wrong with that. Not every one has to get involved with disaster preparedness. I know that when 9-11 occurred, I was at work at one of the major broadcast networks in NYC. Wee have a ham station there and my boss at the time went to the station to make contact with our DC facility (ISDN and cell service was either failing or severely disrupted. What's the difference anyway, that was yesterday. Tomorrow will take care of itself.
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K7JQ

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #73 on: August 05, 2018, 05:27:59 AM »

... and when you think about it, we're only discussing a hobby.
... and there is no NEED for legislation.

Makes no difference now...latest bill is squashed. I'm out...don't want to raise anyone's blood pressure ;D.
As written, if enacted, it also would've made no difference. I guess those w/ HOAs (and HOA's) will just continue to deal with it as you have.  :)

On that, Bryan, we agree...poorly written bill. I'll continue hamming with my little, unobtrusive screwdriver antenna and have fun...226 Q's in a part-time effort in NAQP CW contest. One can enjoy ham radio without asking HOA permission ::).
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KC2QYM

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RE: Ham Antennas - A profit Threat???
« Reply #74 on: August 05, 2018, 05:50:54 AM »

KSP...Well apparently an ongoing disagreement was creating a deadlock and the digging in of heels so I simply digressed and sure, a comment I used in another thread seemed appropriate. But according to you I don't know anything about RF so yeah, I'm sure the RF radiation background levels are high where I live. But isn't that relative to power levels and frequency?  Are you saying that WABC's 50,000 watts on 770khz is more dangerous then sitting under an antenna pumping out 50 watts on 440mhz. Sure we can calculate the net affect of every conceivable RF source throughout the spectrum but again, frequency, power, and proximity are factors for exposure.  Are you implying that because of the enormous RF output across my local area the dangers to humans in very close proximity to a 440 MHz signal should not even be brought up? That somehow we should accept all the ambient RF plus the vertical on the roof close to the crib as just the way it is? In essence not even consider it as a danger worth relating to when HOA comes up? Isn't that just like the ARRL and its sycophants to dismiss this point?
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