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Author Topic: Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610  (Read 13113 times)

VK2NZA

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Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610
« on: September 01, 2018, 11:10:03 PM »

Just looking at the specs for the new Yaesu FTDX 101 MP - HF/6
An Australian dealer has just posted the pre-sale specs and photo of the new Yaesu rig,
Hybrid SDR, 400 mhz high resolution, direct sampling with NBW (narrow bandwidth) SDR.
200 watt!
Independent dual receivers,
9 mhz IF roofing filter.
High Q VC (variable capacitor) front end.
Pricing here projected, $3600 - $4300 US dollars, converted via XE currency converter.
Game on!
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DL8OV

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RE: Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2018, 10:28:12 AM »

However, the FTDX101MP looks like it was beaten with the ugly stick and lost. Give me an Icom any day.

Peter DL8OV
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K6BRN

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RE: Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2018, 10:51:37 AM »

Personally, I think the FTDX-101looks just fine.  Glad to see Yaesu is picking up the DSP gauntlet and modernizing their products.  Now if only they can get the menu/control panel ergonomics right...  We'll see.

So... where is Kenwood, again?
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HB9PJT

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RE: Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2018, 02:20:43 PM »

Peter, I don't know you from this side. Normally you are looking for performance and not for optical design?

73, Peter - HB9PJT

However, the FTDX101MP looks like it was beaten with the ugly stick and lost. Give me an Icom any day.

Peter DL8OV
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W6RZ

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RE: Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2018, 02:30:17 PM »

"Direct sampling" and "9 MHz IF" seem mutually exclusive to me. Maybe it's some novel architecture? Or maybe it's just another analog front-end radio + marketing.
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W5CPT

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RE: Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2018, 03:59:48 PM »

RZ hit it. The new Yaesu is a hybrid like the Elecraft. Not a true SDR. Most likely a very good unit, but still a half step behind.
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VK2NZA

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RE: Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2018, 04:17:22 PM »

However with a 200 watt final the 101MP potentially has good IMD specs driven by a 32 volt? supply.
Zenki may be pleased!
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K6BRN

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RE: Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2018, 06:22:02 PM »

Just re-read the FTDX-3000 splash sheet.  It seems to promise BOTH direct digital sampling and "narrowband"  (presumably below the 9 MHz IF?) side by side.  Very curious.  It DOES have two receivers.  Would Yaesu really have put a conventional (hybrid) receiver like the FTDX-3000's next to a direct sampling DSP receiver?  If so, WOW!  Not sure why they would do that.  Makes more sense to do one type of receiver very well, especially when trying to hit a challenging price point.

We'll see.

Brian - K6BRN
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KX2T

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RE: Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2018, 07:06:51 PM »

I think Yaesu is behind the game plan but maybe a lower noise HF mixer might change things as far as phase noise but both Kenwood and Yaesu should start playing on the same field as Icom cause they have a long way to go to compete with the likes of the 7610. Yaesu is not very clear in the add's so far, a 9Mhz IF would not tell me its an SDR radio at all, there is a good chance that its more like the FTDX3000 which would make it another superhet. Even the 7300 which after the band pass filters its a SDR as far as most of the radio's functions then it has after the DAC's a DSP IF stage making a decent showing of both SDR and DSP technologies.
The 7610 is all SDR and a true to form SDR with knobs that can be used stand alone. I am not sure what Yaesu is doing but they seem to be following the Kenwood which by today's standards is old news.
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VE3WGO

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RE: Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2018, 07:58:13 PM »

The FTDX-101D/MP would be an SDR, simply because it uses software to process its signals, just like most radios have done in IF-DSP for the past many years.  Yes, an IF-DSP radio is a superhet, but it most assuredly is an SDR as well.  The only question is whether either or both of the FTDX-101D's receivers and transmitters are Direct Sampling types.

I posted the following paragraphs over in the Software Defined Radios topic, and it probably is worth repeating here...
"

I suppose the truth is that hams as a group have not agreed on what an "SDR" is.  Is that typical menu-driven superhet radio from 5 to 20 years ago an SDR?  I think so, if it has a microprocessor that is controlling modulation, demodulation, IF bandwidth, uses DSP for signal processing, etc.  Maybe it might be considered old, and have "out of date" DSP technology, but there is nothing that can take away its SDR label.  The radio's characteristics are defined and adjustable by software, and that is the purest definition of a Software Defined Radio.

RTL-SDR dongles and SDRPlay RSP's, etc are SDRs but none of them are direct sampling.  They are superhets with RF tuner/downconverters ahead of their A/D converters.

The newest crop of SDRs is different, though...  for example, the Flex-6000 series, the Icom IC-7300 and IC-7610 are SDRs all right, but they are also so-called Direct Sampling SDRs, with Digital Downconverting Receivers and Digital Upconverting Transmitters.  (They are not superhet receivers). Direct Sampling is the newest technology rage, although I think the performance benefits might be hard detect in many cases.

SDR was a big step that changed how we use radios. Direct sampling is a big technology step but the improvement in the radio performance is harder to detect.  For example, a possible future Direct Sampling version of a K3 would probably more or less look and act the same as a K3 does today. Maybe a bandscope would be included, but in truth, you don't Need to use an SDR to do a bandscope, it's just easier and cheaper that way.

73, Ed
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KX2T

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RE: Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2018, 01:24:26 PM »

The true SDR radio that are on the market today are Anan, Flex and the Icom 7610 along with the Russian radio and the Elad, they are completely an sdr platform but even the 7300 is a hybrid design using a SDR just after the analog pre amp and band pass filters like every one else but a conventional DSP IF which does not qualify to be a complete SDR but radio's that use a DSP IF does not qualify them to be an SDR although Elecraft may want you to think that but sorry they didn't write that book.
What Yaesu is bringing out sounds like the same old song and dance with a 9Mhz IF down conversion design and maybe a hot rodded IF DSP but we will have to wait and see cause there are no real specs on this box, its all hear say. It look to me with the info thus far they are following Kenwood with there superhet design and hi end mixer, they are barking at Elecrafts door after the K3S but that is old news cause Icom looks like the one to try and equal or best at this time in the marketplace and they are just getting started.
So I do not agree with your statement as far as the IF DSP radio's being SDR's cause they use conventional IF's and mixers, a true SDR after the pre amp and band pass filters does everything else in the digital domain, then it's a SDR or in the case of the 7300 its for the most part sdr but they do bring it back after the DAC's to a dsp IF stage and dam good one at that.
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W6RZ

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RE: Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2018, 03:59:44 PM »

a true SDR after the pre amp and band pass filters does everything else in the digital domain...

How does the IC-7300 not fit into that definition? Are you saying that a filter or noise reduction algorithm is somehow different if it's executed on a DSP processor versus an FPGA?
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KX2T

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RE: Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2018, 09:01:14 AM »

In the 7300 the last function of the FPGA is used as a digital down converter, a DDC which delivers a digital baseband, 12Khz wide and centered on 36Khz to the DSP chip which is different then the way it is done on the 7610 which all DSP functions are done in a second FPGA which there is no need for the DDC. The output of the DSP then goes to the DAC in a similar fashion but it is not really like the DSP in there superhet designs but you still have that extra step. Having less conversion even in a sdr type rig makes for a lower noise floor as far as the total system.
Just take the time to read the reviews from Adam VO7OJ/AB4OJ's site on both the 7300 and the 7610 but when you consider what you are getting for a very low cost in an SDR rig the 7300 is an outstanding buy plus value. I have to say that the 7300 changed my way of thinking about what I should expect from a really good radio and the 7610 set a new standard with some of the best phase noise characteristics in the industry.
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PA1ZP

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RE: Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2018, 10:22:18 AM »

Hi

I think Yaesu will try to challenge Icom.
And they will have a hard job in doing.
I think that yaesu would even do a wonderfull job if they can challenge the IC7300.

73 Jos
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W6RZ

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RE: Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2018, 01:33:39 PM »

In the 7300 the last function of the FPGA is used as a digital down converter, a DDC which delivers a digital baseband, 12Khz wide and centered on 36Khz to the DSP chip which is different then the way it is done on the 7610 which all DSP functions are done in a second FPGA which there is no need for the DDC. The output of the DSP then goes to the DAC in a similar fashion but it is not really like the DSP in there superhet designs but you still have that extra step. Having less conversion even in a sdr type rig makes for a lower noise floor as far as the total system.

You can't have a direct sampling receiver without a DDC.

Also, the second FPGA in the IC-7610 doesn't do any DSP functions. It's hardly even an FPGA, closer to a CPLD. It's used to provide an SDRAM controller and glue logic for the two ARM based processors in the IC-7610.

You can see how small it is in this picture. It's the chip labeled "Lattice" (nestled in with the two Renesas ARM processors and SDRAM chips).



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