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Author Topic: Do served organizations really want our help?  (Read 6706 times)

N0IOP

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RE: Do served organizations really want our help?
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2019, 09:45:00 AM »

The money that was spent was staggering on communications technology and consulting services. 

Which leads us to modern day public safety communications. ...


I agree with all of that.  It very much captures the feeling I get reading through the emcomm plans in my home state.

Though you left out the large caches of HTs, the various emcomm trailers complete with crank-up towers, repeaters, satellite uplink, genset, and air-conditioned mobile command center.  The most sophisticated of these have HF with ALE, and are set up for communications with FEMA hq.

A fact to ponder is that anyone can buy an Iridium handset.  They aren't that expensive.  The airtime isn't that expensive.  They are easy to use, and work very well.

----=-=-=-=-=----

Readiness tends to deteriorate over time, and it will be interesting to see how these public safety systems hold up with the passage of years.  I don't know exactly how these things are managed but I suspect that there's centralized management and a centralized pool of technicians.  With any RF engineers having probably been contractors with no ongoing connection with the state.  That means fewer qualified people locally if things break.  I expect that the level of redundancy will become a budget target, eventually.  Once everyone is on 900 Mhz will they still be willing to spend money to maintain a VHF overlay network with separate sites?  Maybe for a while, but the 900 MHz system is supposed to be fully redundant by itself.  Might go the way of low band.

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AC7CW

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RE: Do served organizations really want our help?
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2019, 04:49:54 PM »

The money that was spent was staggering on communications technology and consulting services. 

Which leads us to modern day public safety communications. ...


I agree with all of that.  It very much captures the feeling I get reading through the emcomm plans in my home state.

Though you left out the large caches of HTs, the various emcomm trailers complete with crank-up towers, repeaters, satellite uplink, genset, and air-conditioned mobile command center.  The most sophisticated of these have HF with ALE, and are set up for communications with FEMA hq.

A fact to ponder is that anyone can buy an Iridium handset.  They aren't that expensive.  The airtime isn't that expensive.  They are easy to use, and work very well.

----=-=-=-=-=----

Readiness tends to deteriorate over time, and it will be interesting to see how these public safety systems hold up with the passage of years.  I don't know exactly how these things are managed but I suspect that there's centralized management and a centralized pool of technicians.  With any RF engineers having probably been contractors with no ongoing connection with the state.  That means fewer qualified people locally if things break.  I expect that the level of redundancy will become a budget target, eventually.  Once everyone is on 900 Mhz will they still be willing to spend money to maintain a VHF overlay network with separate sites?  Maybe for a while, but the 900 MHz system is supposed to be fully redundant by itself.  Might go the way of low band.



The thing about amateur stations is they are always in use. They are always up and running if the operator is active.

By contrast; I volunteered at a Red Cross shelter after an earthquake. The first thing I was asked to do was to get some of their equipment working. It was a telephone of some sort, supposedly with emergency capabilities, with dead batteries and no manual that nobody knew how to operate.
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KB8VUL

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RE: Do served organizations really want our help?
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2019, 08:07:34 PM »

  I don't know exactly how these things are managed but I suspect that there's centralized management and a centralized pool of technicians.  With any RF engineers having probably been contractors with no ongoing connection with the state.  That means fewer qualified people locally if things break. 



Well that is going to depend on a couple things.  First is rather or not the user decides to self support or have it supported by the vendor.
Second is who was the vendor.  Motorola don't do self support completely.  And Motorola has factory trained techs across the US in every state.
Motorola shops are required to maintain factory training levels for their tech or they don't get to be factory shops.  And that looses them a lot of money.

Now if they went with something else.  It's a crap shoot, and is totally dependent on what they have.  There may or may not be a tech that's qualified in the entire state.

I am one of those Motorola factory trained techs, and I do know how the systems are put together.  I can say that yes, there is a central controller, and a backup controller, sitting in a highly secure facility that houses things beyond the controller for the state system.  I also know that there is a secondary site that has the same setup that the system can fail over to. 
I know there are multiple redundant connection paths to the controllers and they are on two different physical paths, and in addition to that there are multiple microwave paths coming out of that site that are on different equipment going different directions.  And it's not backed up by a generator, but by three generators with redundant electrical feeds coming in different ends of the buildings and are fed from two different substations that are fed from two different paths coming into town. 
But they did it right here.  And the spent a silly amount of money doing it. 
Not everyone does and when they don't the weaknesses WILL manifest at the worst times.
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WI9MJ

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RE: Do served organizations really want our help?
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2019, 05:57:00 AM »



  And it's not backed up by a generator, but by three generators with redundant electrical feeds coming in different ends of the buildings and are fed from two different substations that are fed from two different paths coming into town. 
But they did it right here.  And the spent a silly amount of money doing it. 
Not everyone does and when they don't the weaknesses WILL manifest at the worst times.

Sounds like the building housing communications and the server farm of a major midwest city.
Power from 2 separate grids, UPS to keep the building up long enough for the generators to kick in.
The unthinkable happened and both grids went down. UPS batteries were dead due to deferred maintenance and replacement. It took a week to get all the servers back online.
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ND6M

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RE: Do served organizations really want our help?
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2019, 09:41:39 AM »

Served agencies really do want our help.  It may not be in comms but there is always a ton of grunt work to be done.
Art
If thats the actual case, then they don't want Amateur related help,  they just want warm bodies.
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KB8VUL

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RE: Do served organizations really want our help?
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2019, 08:35:06 PM »



  And it's not backed up by a generator, but by three generators with redundant electrical feeds coming in different ends of the buildings and are fed from two different substations that are fed from two different paths coming into town. 
But they did it right here.  And the spent a silly amount of money doing it. 
Not everyone does and when they don't the weaknesses WILL manifest at the worst times.

Sounds like the building housing communications and the server farm of a major midwest city.
Power from 2 separate grids, UPS to keep the building up long enough for the generators to kick in.
The unthinkable happened and both grids went down. UPS batteries were dead due to deferred maintenance and replacement. It took a week to get all the servers back online.


Not city, the state. 
Loosing both grids and the N+2 generator configuration would be difficult to fathom, but not impossible.
Mind you we are data warehouse central for the three main online content providers.  In fact the data centers are within 2 miles of each other and there are several other major companies that have their main, hot spare or both in the general area.  Now as much as the state has done, the data centers have taken things to a whole new level.
The one has 2.5MW worth of generators at each end of the building, which is enough for the whole building and they are fed from two different sources.
The others are fed from 3 sources.  The switching yard for that is huge obviously, and then they have generators like crazy too. 
I am not going to bother with the names but if you think three biggest you will know who they are.  In addition, there are centers locally for a major power utility, 2 major banks, and a nationally known insurance agency. 
Needless to say that the power and the internet service around here is pretty stable.
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N9AOP

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RE: Do served organizations really want our help?
« Reply #51 on: October 17, 2019, 09:06:25 AM »

ND6M, We actually prefer amateur operators, not because they are warm bodies but because of what they have between their ears.  The ones we have can be rados when needed but are equally useful using computer systems, databases and the multitude of other functions that have to happen in an operational EOC.  When you get away from major metropolitan areas and into more rural areas the amateur function may be different.
Art
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N8AUC

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RE: Do served organizations really want our help?
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2019, 11:03:03 AM »

ND6M, We actually prefer amateur operators, not because they are warm bodies but because of what they have between their ears.  The ones we have can be rados when needed but are equally useful using computer systems, databases and the multitude of other functions that have to happen in an operational EOC.  When you get away from major metropolitan areas and into more rural areas the amateur function may be different.
Art
Agree with Art on this one.

You might be working the radio in the EOC, but you might also be keeping the coffee maker filled. (Been there, done that.)

Then again, building an impromptu web page mosaic of assorted DOT cameras and get it displayed on one of the video screens in the EOC has also been done.
One of our folks did that in about an hour, on the fly, at no cost to the EMA. DOT said it would take them 6 weeks and they wanted $20K to do it.
That had nothing to do with working the radio.

As far as major metropolitan areas go, what you'll find is that once you get a certain distance away from one, the pool of available technical talent drops off very quickly.
Hams that are trained in NIMS/ICS (which qualifies them to be in an EOC in the first place) become very valuable resources in those areas.


« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 11:07:51 AM by N8AUC »
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W9FIB

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RE: Do served organizations really want our help?
« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2019, 03:53:29 AM »

In a flood a few years back part of our ARES group coordinated sand bag distribution. We used radio to communicate and muscles to help those in need.

We do what it takes...probably best describes our group. And that is why we are wanted by our local emergency govt.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

KB8VUL

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RE: Do served organizations really want our help?
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2019, 08:42:29 PM »

The more I think about this, the more it seems that maybe we as hams, at least those that are in areas that don't have direct need of emergency communications, should join a CERT group. Or if no group exists in your area, and you have enough individuals to get a group started, attempt to get the local EMA to create one. 

I was involved in CERT until I became a two way radio tech.  The reason for bowing out of CERT is if a situation arose that needed the CERT groups to be activated, my two way radio skills would be better applied to the needs of the counties communication system than my CERT skills.  In short, if they get activated, I would more than likely get called into service as a radio tech.  So I bowed out. 

But, while you may be doing grunt work for part of it, you are trained in may other aspects of disaster preparedness, mitigation and recovery.  It goes far beyond just communications.  But if the need arises, then you have that covered as well.
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ND6M

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RE: Do served organizations really want our help?
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2019, 08:39:36 AM »

...edit...  When you get away from major metropolitan areas and into more rural areas the amateur function may be different.
Art

i understand that Art, between my county and the adjoining county, there are 3 Amateurs with HF licenses.
 and perhaps 10 with TECH tickets.
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KB2FCV

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Re: RE: Do served organizations really want our help?
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2019, 01:30:33 PM »

The more I think about this, the more it seems that maybe we as hams, at least those that are in areas that don't have direct need of emergency communications, should join a CERT group. Or if no group exists in your area, and you have enough individuals to get a group started, attempt to get the local EMA to create one. 

I know in NJ that there are pretty active CERT groups that get used.. but I think that varies upon each municipality. A town or two away has a very active CERT group, but the town that I'm in doesn't. The town next to us that I'm a volunteer firefighter in had a CERT group but I haven't seen them in a while. I've seen the Red Cross offering one day amateur radio classes w/testing to get more of their people licensed.. they'be been doing that a few years. I've VE'd at a few of those sessions.

If you really want to get involved, there are plenty of places looking for volunteers (Red Cross, EMS, volunteer fire departments). I was in RACES early on in the early 90's and then joined the volunteer fire department as I wanted to be more actively involved. 25+ years later I'm still there.
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KB8VUL

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Re: RE: Do served organizations really want our help?
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2019, 09:18:06 PM »

The more I think about this, the more it seems that maybe we as hams, at least those that are in areas that don't have direct need of emergency communications, should join a CERT group. Or if no group exists in your area, and you have enough individuals to get a group started, attempt to get the local EMA to create one. 

I know in NJ that there are pretty active CERT groups that get used.. but I think that varies upon each municipality. A town or two away has a very active CERT group, but the town that I'm in doesn't. The town next to us that I'm a volunteer firefighter in had a CERT group but I haven't seen them in a while. I've seen the Red Cross offering one day amateur radio classes w/testing to get more of their people licensed.. they'be been doing that a few years. I've VE'd at a few of those sessions.

If you really want to get involved, there are plenty of places looking for volunteers (Red Cross, EMS, volunteer fire departments). I was in RACES early on in the early 90's and then joined the volunteer fire department as I wanted to be more actively involved. 25+ years later I'm still there.

I think a lot of it is going to be based on who you are.
The old guys are not gonna want to sign up for the fire service, or even CERT.  They want to play radio,,, and in truth, that's about what they are able to do.  But you have to do something to draw in young guys that they will want to stick with.  That may be the fire service, or SAR or it may not be.  Thing is you have to be flexable to point.  But showing up to setup bunks and hand out coffee and donuts isn't something a technical person should be tasked with.
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W9FIB

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Re: RE: Do served organizations really want our help?
« Reply #58 on: November 07, 2019, 03:52:39 AM »

But showing up to setup bunks and hand out coffee and donuts isn't something a technical person should be tasked with.

Then you are too limited to actually help. Most hams can't repair commercial installations that may be down. Only so many hams are needed to make a communications link. Basically 1 on each end. So if your standing around waiting for a turn at the radio and have decided that's all your going to do, your in the way of those who really want to help and are willing to do what it takes to make others healthy and safe.

When you tell an agency this is all I can do, they will begin to ignore you. They don't have time for your demands. And even less time when their normal routine is disrupted.

When you tell an agency you are here to help them help people in their time of need, they are more likely to be interested.

Think about it this way...Your in a town destroyed by a tornado. Everything you own is now damaged or gone forever. You make your way to a place set up to help with food, drinks, and shelter. The line waiting for help is long. So that begs the question. Are you more useful at that moment listening to a radio, or actually doing what it takes to help the people in line? Are you really that self important that you will stand around while your neighbor needs the simple basics to survive? Can you imagine the Red Cross ONLY processing blood for victims instead of providing for the needs of those in need?

This is where I disagree. People should be helping people. Even with a cup of coffee or handing them a blanket. Something that I learned when my family and I lost most of what we had to a house fire. And the many who helped and offered help were greatly appreciated.

Do you really think I, or anyone for that matter, am going to give a rats @$$ about your wanting to only play radio instead of helping out?
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

N9LCD

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Re: Do served organizations really want our help?
« Reply #59 on: November 07, 2019, 11:18:06 AM »

Stan:

Most hams ARE NOT QUALIFIED to service commercial radio installations.  You need a commercial license with the appropriate endorsement.  And test equipment with traceable calibrations -- no RatShack or MFJ gear.

And, in any operation, it takes MANY to support the ONE who "delivers the goods".  I saw an early WW II USAAF documentary on a B-17 Flying Fort bomber group.  400 airmen of all ranks manned 40 aircraft.  It took 3,600 ground personnel to keep those 40 Forts in the air -- 9 men on the ground for each one in the air.   You got it right!       
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