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Author Topic: A MARS Winlink/PacTor Confession  (Read 4384 times)

W6EM

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A MARS Winlink/PacTor Confession
« on: December 21, 2018, 10:04:00 AM »


About a half dozen years ago, I was incensed over the use of PacTor modems being an apparently mandated item with respect to digital traffic on the MARS network.  No, I was not a MARS member, but a former MARS member.

Two things disturbed me greatly: The first, the fact that it meant that to participate, civilian members would have to have purchased SCS modems, the only ones available that could receive PacTors 2 or 3.  At a cost of just over $1,000 each!  Sure, PacTor 1 could be handled with sound card modems since it was open source, but it was relatively slow.

The other, that it forced MARS members to purchase hardware from a single, offshore source.  The only way to be capable of sending and receiving MARS digital traffic.
So, I wrote to the Deputy Secretary of Defense at the time, highlighting these two points.  And, I emphasized that I did not think it right for DOD to have to buy modems for volunteers, nor be restricted to a single source for such an item.  Especially since it was designed for PacTor use, not a lot of other popular modes like STANAG, Clover or Olivia.

From reading various public reports, DOD subsequently ordered the cessation of its use for perhaps the above reasons.   Someone within MARS circles, however, saw fit to restore permission for MARS only. 
Somewhat strange, frankly, since the mission of MARS is no longer to pass health and welfare messages to and from deployed forces as it once was and in view of recent interconnection concerns.

Since that time, other events have prompted DOD to remove physical Internet connections from radios and modems that are used to handle at least Army MARS content.  Apparently, out of concern that viruses, worms and such could invade a computer and transfer content unknowingly from the user to a foreign source.   According to what I’ve read, content these days can be quite sensitive and even classified.  Routing such traffic through distant, non-MARS, non-military PMBO mailboxes connected to the Internet would also be of concern, since they too could be invaded and capture content in the process of translation and forwarding on the Internet.

While I am sorry that my earlier complaint may have disparaged those who had already invested in expensive proprietary protocol modem boxes, I complained for what I thought were some very good reasons.  And still do, as a taxpayer.  If the single source were to have been compromised, think of those consequences.  Or, if the price of the hardware were to be increased to an even higher cost?  Just as it now has in order to send and receive PacTor 4, at a price of over $2,000 for each new modem and the older ones aren't compatible.  Having the flexibility to use a multiplicity of digital modes, including those trusted and used directly by our military in their communications equipment is of ever increasing importance in light of cyber security concerns.  Today’s MARS needs the digital mode capability to communicate with the military and its membership has that capability.

Lee
W6EM
Ex-AAT9GN


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NA4IT

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RE: A MARS Winlink/PacTor Confession
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2018, 04:10:54 AM »

There were some other issues with Winlink that caused the MARS folks to leave it... and I'll leave it at that.

I understand they now have some good SC modes that work well.

Some of the MARS heads restricted NCS stations to stations that could run legal limits and had dual receive.

It seemed also if you were serious about MARS and doing something, the higher ups that were lazy didn't like it, and would bust your chops.

And now you know why I left MARS.

And after a fiasco with a local ham, I left amateur radio also...
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W6EM

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RE: A MARS Winlink/PacTor Confession
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2018, 05:06:42 PM »

While I understand your position WRT MARS, it was and is your decision.  Leaving wouldn't change it, nor would staying.

However, if you let one individual, one group or even several groups influence your decision to abandon amateur radio completely, that is a mistake.  Why?  Because you can change what you choose to do with amateur radio.  Not just spin the dial, but choose the bands, times, and modes to pursue what doesn't collide with the individual.

At most, just take a break.  You've been at it for a long time.  To me, it's the tinkering, not the talking, that's most important.  Just my two cents.

73.

Lee
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W1MSG

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RE: A MARS Winlink/PacTor Confession
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2018, 01:45:34 AM »

I can assure you that no Classified information is passed via MARS


  According to what I’ve read, content these days can be quite sensitive and even classified. 

Lee
W6EM
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W6EM

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RE: A MARS Winlink/PacTor Confession
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2018, 03:45:56 PM »

I can assure you that no Classified information is passed via MARS

  I don't usually give such statements much value, in light of firm circumstantial evidence.

MARS Refocuses Its Mission, Encrypts Data Nets
02/22/2017 ARRL Letter


English said that in today’s MARS program, the primary digital protocol is software that emulates Military Standard (MilStd) 188-110A (M110A) serial phase-shift keying, which is compatible with what is used by the military. MARS members may still use Amateur Radio digital modes on working channels, but M110A is the principal mode. There are no plans to transition to digital voice modes.
This year, MARS introduced an online encryption program that allows all digital radio traffic to be encrypted as it is being transmitted. MARS has also expanded its use of automatic link establishment (ALE), although members are not required to use it.


Why on earth would communications be encrypted, if not to protect sensitive content?  Even Official Business is, in effect, classified.

Sorry about your loss of Winlink.

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W1MSG

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RE: A MARS Winlink/PacTor Confession
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2019, 02:10:22 AM »

Maybe you should read AR 380-5 ..
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W6EM

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RE: A MARS Winlink/PacTor Confession
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2019, 05:49:05 PM »

Maybe you should read AR 380-5 ..
I really don't have the time or interest in reading through the Army's classified bible.  Perhaps those in responsible charge have done so and made their decisions based on same.  If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck.  Even if you claim it's a turkey.
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N1EN

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RE: A MARS Winlink/PacTor Confession
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2019, 09:23:58 PM »

Why on earth would communications be encrypted, if not to protect sensitive content?

If everything is encrypted, then stations coming on circuit to send sensitive, encrypted traffic will draw less attention to their traffic.
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W1MSG

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RE: A MARS Winlink/PacTor Confession
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2019, 02:08:39 AM »

Maybe you should read AR 380-5 ..
I really don't have the time or interest in reading through the Army's classified bible.  Perhaps those in responsible charge have done so and made their decisions based on same.  If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck.  Even if you claim it's a turkey.

And there you have it, you speak of things you know nothing about. I am not surprised someone may think things are classified due to the way in which MARS operates. But the Military is not going to pass Classified Info to Volunteers with no clearance. After 32 years in the Military I may have a bit of a background on the subject.
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W1MSG

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RE: A MARS Winlink/PacTor Confession
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2019, 02:14:07 AM »

Why on earth would communications be encrypted, if not to protect sensitive content?

If everything is encrypted, then stations coming on circuit to send sensitive, encrypted traffic will draw less attention to their traffic.

Sensitive is much different than Classified. 
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N1EN

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RE: A MARS Winlink/PacTor Confession
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2019, 07:38:09 AM »

Why on earth would communications be encrypted, if not to protect sensitive content?

If everything is encrypted, then stations coming on circuit to send sensitive, encrypted traffic will draw less attention to their traffic.

Sensitive is much different than Classified. 

The point remains...in an environment where there is an interest in denying potentially unfriendly entities information, one must consider information that can be indirectly gleaned by differences in messages or patterns of communications.

In this case: if most of your traffic is unencrypted, then the little bit of encrypted traffic will attract special attention, giving code-breaking resources the opportunity to focus their energies, and highlighting that particular messages and communications paths are interesting.

If you encrypt even routine traffic reports and test messages, you add noise to the system and make sigint work more challenging.

I'm not suggesting that routine encryption of everything makes MARS circuits secure.  It's more a function of: if it's easy and authorized, then why wouldn't MARS do something like this / why share any information when there is no need to share?
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W6EM

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RE: A MARS Winlink/PacTor Confession
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2019, 02:16:03 PM »

Why on earth would communications be encrypted, if not to protect sensitive content?

If everything is encrypted, then stations coming on circuit to send sensitive, encrypted traffic will draw less attention to their traffic.

Sensitive is much different than Classified. 
Really?  For Official Use Only and Unclassified Controlled Information isn't to be made public.  In fact, it's not typical to be given permission to be emailed.  So, even if  no one in MARS has a security clearance, they are permitted to handle FOUO/UCI.

OK.  You spent 32 yrs in the military and I spent 10 yrs with a DOE top secret clearance, etc., etc.  So what.

Let's digress a minute.  If MARS handles FOUO/UCI, then it is operating properly by using radio to radio as the pathway.  However, if SHARES uses Winlink, its transmission of FOUO/UCI definitely involves the Internet and email.  And, decoding of copies of messages on Winlink servers could be an issue, since Winlinkers aren't part of the permitted cadre.  And, the content could be easily compromised.
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W1MSG

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RE: A MARS Winlink/PacTor Confession
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2019, 04:09:08 AM »

Why on earth would communications be encrypted, if not to protect sensitive content?

If everything is encrypted, then stations coming on circuit to send sensitive, encrypted traffic will draw less attention to their traffic.

Sensitive is much different than Classified. 
Really?  For Official Use Only and Unclassified Controlled Information isn't to be made public.  In fact, it's not typical to be given permission to be emailed.  So, even if  no one in MARS has a security clearance, they are permitted to handle FOUO/UCI.

OK.  You spent 32 yrs in the military and I spent 10 yrs with a DOE top secret clearance, etc., etc.  So what.

Let's digress a minute.  If MARS handles FOUO/UCI, then it is operating properly by using radio to radio as the pathway.  However, if SHARES uses Winlink, its transmission of FOUO/UCI definitely involves the Internet and email.  And, decoding of copies of messages on Winlink servers could be an issue, since Winlinkers aren't part of the permitted cadre.  And, the content could be easily compromised.

FOUO / UCI is totally different than Classified, thats all I was saying. FOUO does not require a security clearance. I was commenting on the post that said they could pass Classified materials. Since you had a Top Secret you should know and understand that.
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W6EM

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RE: A MARS Winlink/PacTor Confession
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2019, 03:45:23 PM »

I have not been a MARS member for years.  When I was, it was an "affiliate" organization. It is now an "auxiliary" organization.  It now has missions that extend well beyond health and welfare message traffic.  Background investigations are not inexpensive.  But, it might be that DOD considers the new role of MARS to be worth the cost of same.  Especially since contacts are now direct to units in the field.

This is the last I'm going to say about any of this.  Either way, MARS is now handling content that is not designed for public release.  Not so before.

73
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W1MSG

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RE: A MARS Winlink/PacTor Confession
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2019, 02:41:56 PM »

I have not been a MARS member for years.  When I was, it was an "affiliate" organization. It is now an "auxiliary" organization.  It now has missions that extend well beyond health and welfare message traffic.  Background investigations are not inexpensive.  But, it might be that DOD considers the new role of MARS to be worth the cost of same.  Especially since contacts are now direct to units in the field.

This is the last I'm going to say about any of this.  Either way, MARS is now handling content that is not designed for public release.  Not so before.

73

Well if you think so .. But you are in a dream world. The only content MARS is handling that isn't for the public is their own stuff. There is no way the Military is going to give hardware encryption units required to program the military radios to civilians. Nor do civilians even have a radio capable of utilizing the encryption. Keep playing with you winlink and think its military grade lol. My last combat deployment I could send a text message to my home unit in the states via my BFT mounted in my HMMV, or have a text conversation with an Apache Helicopter who was providing air support for a mission.

This will be my last post on the matter as well. We can agree to disagree and you can believe what ever you want.
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