Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Repeater locations...  (Read 2776 times)

KG9ZTX

  • Member
  • Posts: 65
Repeater locations...
« on: March 12, 2019, 02:40:01 PM »

First off I do know that to establish a repeater that one needs to get approval from the state frequency coordinator. In my case the Texas VHF Society. And they issue frequency pairs based on the geographical location, antenna height, and power.

I have also noticed closed repeater systems. At first I wondered why? Now I understand. As the DFW repeaters in Dallas are very congested, and thus only available for limited use.

Thus now I have the desire to invest About $60,000 in putting up several closed repeater systems around Dallas Fort Worth for good coverage, as well as a couple of other areas in Texas I Visit very frequently and do not have cell coverage in the area. Interestingly though, they do have ground based cable modem internet.

Thus the following Questions...

1. Is it possible to have multiple 2m or 70cm repeaters at the same location?
Ie 2 or 3, 2m repeaters or 2 or 3, 70cm repeaters?

2. How does one go about getting a repeater located on a water tower, or building, or even radio tower? I have seen many radio towers, water towers and buildings with antenna systems on them that obviously don’t have ham radio repeaters on them.

In other words, how do the ham radio clubs get it done? They obviously don’t own the towers, buildings and water towers? And they obviously can’t afford to pay huge amounts of rent for these locations either?

3. How far will $60,000 get in building repeaters. Short of the cost of building towers. As I know as an example a 2000’ tower alone is well over a million bucks. So tower cost is a consideration if I have to build my own towers versus using a preexisting tower, water tower, or building.

4. Short of monthly internet provider costs for getting internet to the repeaters for allstar and IRLP nodes, and the possible monthly cost for the repeater location lease. Are there other monthly or  recurring expenses that I have not thought about?

5. Is there something else that I am totally missing?

Fyi... why not a portable allstar IRLP node connected to my phone? Always mobile so
2 reasons, not always in a cell coverage area, second, limited data availability on my phone.

Even when home... I have a HOA, so any HF ham antennas I am not able to erect. And I can’t erect any 2m/70cm antenna higher then my roof line (about 45’) and must be vertical. Also my attic which isn’t large. Has a radiant barrier and is full of A/C and heating and water heaters and metal ducting. So a repeater at my home is not possible.

Logged

AA4PB

  • Member
  • Posts: 15504
RE: Repeater locations...
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2019, 02:49:00 PM »

It helps to have a 501C3 registered club so that someone who donates or discounts tower space rental can take a tax write off. It also helps to have a club member who knows people who own towers or tall buildings.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 02:51:26 PM by AA4PB »
Logged
Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA

KG9ZTX

  • Member
  • Posts: 65
RE: Repeater locations...
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2019, 04:20:28 PM »

It helps to have a 501C3 registered club so that someone who donates or discounts tower space rental can take a tax write off. It also helps to have a club member who knows people who own towers or tall buildings.


Makes perfect sense, yet sadly back to square one of a crowded repeater with limited usage.

I actually don’t mind paying a monthly lease amount depending on what that cost would be. I have no idea though what a lease would run though.
Logged

K5LXP

  • Member
  • Posts: 6823
    • homeURL
RE: Repeater locations...
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2019, 04:42:50 PM »

If it's a commercial radio site, you'll pay at least a few hundred a month.  So typically clubs will either know someone or have some personal access, or sell the schtick that the repeater they'll be hosting will be serving in the public interest in some way.  A private system would probably be a harder sell.

You can mux as many repeaters at one site as you can afford.  Namely, the combiners and duplexers it takes to keep the boxes from talking to each other, and at a commercial site, all the other boxes there too.

Consider that in an area like DFW, all V/U pairs have already been allocated/coordinated unless you move to a band where no one else is.  Another consideration is the topography will require pretty good radio sites if any useful distance is to be covered.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
 
Logged

KG9ZTX

  • Member
  • Posts: 65
RE: Repeater locations...
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2019, 06:57:51 PM »

Yes just found out all the frequency pairs have been used for 2m 70cm.
There are some free in the 220. And 33cm though.

I am considering donating a substantial donation, to maybe improve the range of some of the current repeaters.
Logged

K4JJL

  • Member
  • Posts: 1194
RE: Repeater locations...
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2019, 11:18:39 AM »

I am considering donating a substantial donation, to maybe improve the range of some of the current repeaters.

I wish I was around to warn myself 10 years ago about the road you're going down.  Hate to be a Debbie Downer, but when I built-up a repeater system to awesome coverage and features, I got incessant phone calls about audio quality (calls that contradicted other calls), signal quality, frequency, courtesy tones (why did it change, I don't like it, it's too long, it's too short, it sounds awful, why is it a "P" in Morse Code, what does the "n" stand for), antenna direction, etc.  I finally told them to keep my football, and I went home.

You're about to be married to a mess that you've dumped money in.  There is no ROI.  It's more fun to set your money on fire.  At least it's over quickly.
Logged

KG9ZTX

  • Member
  • Posts: 65
RE: Repeater locations...
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2019, 11:03:17 PM »

You didn’t just tell them love it or leave it, that they aren’t required to use the repeater if they don’t like it? Lol
Logged

K4JJL

  • Member
  • Posts: 1194
RE: Repeater locations...
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2019, 08:43:10 AM »

You didn’t just tell them love it or leave it, that they aren’t required to use the repeater if they don’t like it? Lol

You've obviously never been wrapped up in it.  The phone calls don't cease.
Logged

K5LXP

  • Member
  • Posts: 6823
    • homeURL
RE: Repeater locations...
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2019, 04:54:34 PM »


I've been building and operating repeaters for over 30 years and K4JJL has it right, everyone is an expert and a critic when it comes to the system operation.  But what I've found helps is to be financially autonomous - I paid for all the hardware, did all the maintenance and secured the sites.  Sure, you get a lot of "you ought to" or "why don't you" and it's just water off a duck's back.  For the persistent ones, the simple response "cut me a check and we'll get right on that" sets them straight.  The minute it becomes a group effort or a joint expense there will be contention.  With one, it goes pretty smoothly.

Getting one coordinated pair usually isn't impossible but getting enough to set up a linked system in a metro area will be pretty hard.  System optimization and maintenance with multiple sites will be involved.  Not impossible, but for a lone operator will be a pretty big and perpetual time and resource commitment.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM


Logged

WB8VLC

  • Member
  • Posts: 1155
RE: Repeater locations...
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2019, 10:00:11 AM »

 KG9ZTX quote: Thus now I have the desire to invest About $60,000 in putting up several closed repeater systems

Like others have said Don't do it, Don't do it, Don't do it.

Your better off spending your money on bribing an Ivy League college admissions director to have some random rich kid get in to their institution.

Even though they will be closed repeaters, prepare to have people hack into them and create constant problems.

Like others said don't do it but if you're hell bent at doing it then my suggestions are as follows.

 
1.  cancel all of your telephones, landline and cells, get a PO BOX  in an adjacent town that you never intend to check.
 

2. Don't use your call on anything, get a club call but don't have your name on it if possible.

3. When you use these repeaters do not give any indication that you have anything to do with the repeaters and make it clear that you don't know who the trustee is, in fact get on and complain about crap coverage like everyone else just to throw the constant complainers off your tail.

4. You need to be thick skinned because you will only hear complaints about poor coverage, poor audio and such and never anything positive.

5.  Don't do it, Don't do it, Don't do it.

6.  Don't do it, Don't do it, Don't do it.
Logged

K0UA

  • Member
  • Posts: 9589
RE: Repeater locations...
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2019, 07:47:01 AM »

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would want to put up a repeater. We have far TOO MANY repeaters now that sit idle 24/7/365. Everyone and his dog has a repeater. Perhaps life is different in other parts of the world, but I would never use the term "congested" and repeater in the same sentence. Repeaters are a vast ghost town with an occasional ghost keying them up.
Logged
73  James K0UA

WB0DZX

  • Member
  • Posts: 40
RE: Repeater locations...
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2019, 04:43:31 AM »

Forgive me if I have misunderstood the situation or misread something into it.

With all the suburbs around DFW, I am amazed at a lack of cell and repeater coverage "out there." Yet you mentioned repeater congestion. Are the areas you frequently visit large ranches much further away? Ask the people there what cell carrier they use. Look up all the open repeaters in the areas. When there's no activity keyup with identification. Best to ask "anybody around?" Or call a station that just finished. Unfortunately there may not be a squelch tail, especially if the repeater has tone squelch. If success, program to memory then scan all those to determine congestion. You may have to switch repeaters depending on where you're at.
 
If there is fringe coverage with any cell carrier, you may want to invest in boosters for your vehicle(s) and, with permisson, the fixed locations. A major US brand is https://www.weboost.com but there are many others. Boosters work with all carriers. In years past I've heard of one carrier that required you to get the booster from them.

It matters who you would want to talk with and how often. If only hams, operators of (congested) closed repeaters would have a limit on the number of your ham friends allowed. If you just want to talk, upgrade and get a mobile HF rig.
 
If you primarily want public-safety emergency contact with voice, $60K goes a long toward a satellite phone and usage. You won't be able to dial 9-1-1 so you'll need at least one number (Texas Highway Patrol). Without voice - your emergency's position could be relayed via satellite to responders via a small PLB (Personal Locator Beacon). Just one of many suppliers is https://www.acrartex.com/products/resqlink-plb
 
Repeaters usually talkout further than they receive. If you can hear them while mobile, perhaps for better talkback you need a higher power mobile and, if you don't already have it, a 3dbd gain antenna mounted on the vehicle's metal. Make sure the coax has not been squished, bent, or the shield is visible at any point the entire length. Unscrew the antenna from its base to check for moisture that may have wicked up. If you can hear one or more repeaters at home, a "ventenna" on a roof vent may help. https://www.ventenna.com
 
For destinations having open WiFi, enable WiFi calling on your cellphone. It won't work enroute, of course. Some ranches cover large areas with a combination of WiFi boosters, WiFi repeaters, and gain antennas. The equipment is solar/battery powered and mounted in outdoor enclosures inaccessible by livestock.
 
Adding more transmit power, if approved through coordination, to increase repeater talkout increases the possibility of added interference at a congested site and nearby. Adding a preamp to increase repeater reception at a congested site will usually cause a net reduction in sensitivity due to increased noise levels from other transmitters.
   
33cm range is much less than 2m or 70cm. A combiner has power loss which could increase the fringe area of all systems combined.
 
I agree - DON'T DO IT as you planned!
 
Mike WB0DZX
Logged

N2AYM

  • Member
  • Posts: 375
RE: Repeater locations...
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2019, 07:41:23 AM »

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would want to put up a repeater. We have far TOO MANY repeaters now that sit idle 24/7/365. Everyone and his dog has a repeater. Perhaps life is different in other parts of the world, but I would never use the term "congested" and repeater in the same sentence. Repeaters are a vast ghost town with an occasional ghost keying them up.

For someone who is an Amateur Extra WHERE is your pioneering spirit????

"Perhaps life is different in other parts of the world"

See your above statement and you may want to listen to yourself before
dis-encouraging others! Some hams learn while building things and if they
serve other hams in the process it is a very good thing. If a disaster shows
up a surplus of repeaters can be such a good thing!
Logged

K0UA

  • Member
  • Posts: 9589
RE: Repeater locations...
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2019, 06:45:37 AM »

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would want to put up a repeater. We have far TOO MANY repeaters now that sit idle 24/7/365. Everyone and his dog has a repeater. Perhaps life is different in other parts of the world, but I would never use the term "congested" and repeater in the same sentence. Repeaters are a vast ghost town with an occasional ghost keying them up.

For someone who is an Amateur Extra WHERE is your pioneering spirit????

"Perhaps life is different in other parts of the world"

See your above statement and you may want to listen to yourself before
dis-encouraging others! Some hams learn while building things and if they
serve other hams in the process it is a very good thing. If a disaster shows
up a surplus of repeaters can be such a good thing!

Uh, Ok.. But I just see the vast amounts of repeaters we have in my area, there are approximately 1 repeater for each Amateur radio operator in my area. Therefor everyone can stay on their own repeater and never have to actually talk to anyone else. :)  OK, I may have exaggerate just a bit, but it just seems like such a waste. I remember back in the "good old days" when there were very few repeaters, and yes "drive time" was somewhat congested as you had to take your turn in the big roundtable during those times. But we sure had a lot of fun an you could be assured that someone was monitoring at all times.  If you keyed up at 2:00 in the morning and asked if anyone was around, you would be answered.

Contrast that to today, I have driven hundreds of miles thru multiple states, keying up and asking for contacts thru dozens of repeaters and have received no answers. Perhaps I did not hit the right "congested" repeaters?
Logged
73  James K0UA

K5DH

  • Member
  • Posts: 106
    • HomeURL
RE: Repeater locations...
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2019, 08:16:22 AM »

I'm curious about the statement that "DFW area repeaters are congested."  I've lived in the DFW area since 1980.  Lately it's hard to find anyone on most of the repeaters in the area, at least on the north side.  Even during the morning and afternoon commute times, there's little activity, if any. 
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up