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Author Topic: Wash Machine  (Read 1349 times)

W8FCD

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Wash Machine
« on: June 20, 2019, 05:18:56 AM »

I'm in an HOA with a 20 mtr dipole in the attic and have worked many stations recently.  While on the air with a Croatian station last night, the buzzer in the washer went off and the "Lid is Locked" light came on even though the lid wasn't in fact locked.  No buttons on the washer worked.  Figuring it might be a call to the repair guy, I unplugged the washer and plugged it back in.  Everything back to normal.  Since the washer wasn't in use at the time of my transmissions I can only blame it on RF.  RF can do funny things.  Guess I'll have to unplug the washer when I'm on the air.
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W9IQ

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RE: Wash Machine
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2019, 06:17:28 AM »

If you don't have one installed, you may find that a good current (choking) balun at the antenna feedpoint mitigates the problem. If you already have that in place, you may find installing another choking balun further down the coax helps to reduce the RFI. These things often take some experimenting as they just don't want to follow the "rules"!

Of course, it is a nice excuse not to do laundry...

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 06:34:23 AM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

N9LCD

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RE: Wash Machine
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2019, 06:57:47 AM »

Steve:

Don't feel bad.

Northwestern Memorial Hospital's Passavant Pavilion loading dock had a temperature based fire detection system.  When security keyed their handi talkies somewhere in the 150 - 160 Mhz range, it set-off the fire alarm system.

Luckily CFD Engine 98 was right across the street from the loading dock!!!

N(LCD
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K7JQ

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RE: Wash Machine
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2019, 11:58:39 AM »

I have a screwdriver antenna mounted on a backyard steel fence (counterpoise) about 30 feet from a pole that has a weather station sensor apparatus on it. Keying 100W causes the wireless sensor signal to stop transmitting to the indoor display. Resetting the display restores the signal. Then again, maybe I don't want to know the temperature during the Arizona summer....consistently well over 100 degrees ;).
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W8FCD

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RE: Wash Machine
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2019, 05:26:43 AM »

Thanks guys, interesting and even funny experiences of your own.  I have a 1:1 balun at the feed point but I might snap on a few of the ferrite chokes that I have.  An easy way out would be to turn off the laundry outlet circuit breaker until such time as the YL wants to do the wash.   Maybe cutting back from 200 watts would help as well.  Experimenting will be the ongoing order of the day.
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K7JQ

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RE: Wash Machine
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2019, 06:43:30 AM »

Cutting back power will definitely mitigate some RFI issues. Referring to my screwdriver antenna on the fence, I once tried running 350W from my amp into it, and all kinds of things went awry in the house. At 100W, only the weather station is affected.
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K6BRN

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RE: Wash Machine
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2019, 04:59:02 PM »

I use an RF choke about 3 to 5 feet from the antenna and another (or a coax shield ground to a rod) before the coax enters my home (3 different QTH)  and this has pretty much solved my RFI/EMI problems, even running 500 to 1,000 watts.  That said, my antennas are all nominally resonant (do not rely on the antenna coax as a radiating element) and are out side of my homes and usually more than 1/2 wavelength away.

As Glenn said, get a couple of RF chokes and put them inline...  experiment!

Have fun!

Brian - K6BRN
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W8FCD

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RE: Wash Machine
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2019, 11:07:38 AM »

Thanks guys.  I discovered that I have 10 snap-on ferrite chokes I had forgotten about for RG-59 feed line.  I'll start by snapping on a couple here and there.  I was able to stretch the dipole out so it's completely horizontal now rather than with droopy ends.  Right now my SWR is 1.5:1 without the antenna tuner.  We'll see what happens.
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W8LV

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RE: Wash Machine
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2019, 08:47:27 PM »

RFI is really a strange thing, isn't it? I noticed in Winter when I operated that a few hours later, the room was chilly. Seems that my Pulse 21 Furnace that I had at the time was shutting down. But it only did so for several hours, and then it would somehow reset itself. This added to figuring out the cause and effect confusion.
A couple of torroids attached to the dipole antenna already equipped with a balun didn't help. But a couple of torroids snapped onto the thermostat wire did. I should note here that I was running QRP.

While it is wierd and you never know what RF is going to do, I've come to the conclusion that no matter if it is a washing machine now newly equipped with a touch screen and sans Ye Olde Reliable (and easily replaceable) Stepper Motor,  or a digital thermometer where a former Mercury one did a fine job, designers of these things simply ignored or neglected RF attenuation in the design phase.

I've heard that UL/CSA only checks for hazards, such as shock or fire when they certify things.
I've also encountered an LED lightbulb with an "FCC" symbol that was so broadband noisy they could have attached it to the bottom of a Strike Eagle and used it in place of a jamming pod.

Is it just to save a few cents in manufacturing?
Or mistakes? Don't know. But a washer (or a furnace) is a pretty expensive and necessary household expense. It doesn't make sense to me that such major appliances don't come equipped with some RF protecion. My location is rural, but I don't see how these things are not failing on a large scale in urban areas, where one would expect a lot more background RF in general. Or ARE they failing, and somehow we just aren't hearing about it? Or maybe it's just the inverse square law at work: Even a QRP signal is going to be strong when you are operating just a few metres away from said appliances. Something is wrong here, that's for sure.

73 DE W8LV BILL
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 09:01:53 PM by W8LV »
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W8FCD

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RE: Wash Machine
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2019, 11:16:48 AM »

Hey Bill,  at my place of work I had to periodically allow the UL and CSL inspectors to check our products.  In a couple discussions I mentioned RF problems but, as you noted, they check for safety rather than interference.  Interesting that you had your issues while running QRP, shows how delicate some of today's circuit boards are.  I'm running between 50 and 200 watts and so far nothing except the washer has been affected.  I keep the laundry circuit breaker in the "off" position until the YL needs to do the wash.  I've made many Field Day contacts this weekend and no further issues.  Thus far I've not heard any reports from neighbors experiencing any weird situations ... my fingers are crossed.
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W8LV

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RE: Wash Machine
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2019, 10:14:10 PM »

Considering that the UL/CSA was implemented in quite another time, I wonder if it is time to up their game a bit...
Not that I'm particularly thrilled with regulation in general, even if UL/CSA are independent of Government. In essence it appears to me that they are really quasi-governmental?

I'm not sure where the "FCC" mark comes from as far as where the jurisdiction of one leaves off and the other starts:
I suspect that It MIGHT be BOTH in that UL/CSA looks at a device JUST from a point of fire, and FCC looks at that SAME device just as an emitter/receiver, hence you get the UL/CSA and FCC marks.

My guess is that the FCC/CTRC (and maybe Industry Canada) regulates RF emitters and receivers just for these qualities ONLY.
You see that FCC statement that says something like:
"This device complies with Part 15 of the FCC rules. Operation is subject to the following two conditions: (1) this device may not cause harmful interference, and (2) this device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation."

But today, just about everything is a receiver, intended or not(!) so maybe something needs changed in reference to (2)?

We can't have washers or heating systems running amok. Or self driving cars!

As far as the LED Bulbs go it seems that one just has to try them out, and interference seems not to have much rhyme or reason as to price or brand.

A bit off topic now, but I have six of those 5000 Lumen (and 5000K) WalMart "Hypertough" LED shop lights here in the shack, and was worried about them causing RFI. So I brought ONE home, put it up, NO problems at all. Then I purchased the rest, and installed each one individually to rule out and isolate any potential manufacturing defects with any single one.


While I DO turn them on and off with an inline switch right at the mains sockets, to save the wear, tear and hassle of using the pull chains as I have found in the past that these are usually the "Weak Point" in all shop lights in general...I am happy to report and HIGHLY recommend these lights. Gosh, they just really work well and I prefer the 5000K temperature as they don't annoyingly "change" the colours of things like Resistor ID bands.

They seem to be as close as you can get to "regular natural light" in my retinas opinion.

We don't all see the same, and my Wife and Daughters prefer the 2700K lights... I suppose that their retinas/brains are different and the colours "pop" better for them at this range. It definitely does seem to be a Gender thing in my Informal Survey... Interesting!

73 DE W8LV BILL





« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 10:27:22 PM by W8LV »
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W8LV

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RE: Wash Machine
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2019, 10:26:16 PM »

P.S. I also vaguely recall that back in the day, it was either the Ohio State Patrol or the Ontario Provincial Police.
Anyhow, they purchased Chrysler (Cordovas?).

The engine would shut down when they used their VHF radios. 


73 DE W8LV BILL

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