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Author Topic: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!  (Read 4099 times)

KN6SD

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Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« on: September 05, 2019, 11:10:00 PM »

Is it my imagination, or was the ARRL supposed to have come up with an alternative to the Parity Act???

May be I was dreaming, but I could have sworn that was the story from ARRL HQ, Parity 2.0 in or around July 2019??

Or is the HOA crowd on their own??

Any thoughts?

73,
Russ
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NN4RH

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2019, 11:22:59 PM »

There is an ARRL board committee working on it, the Legislative Advisory Committee.
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K1VSK

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2019, 06:13:16 AM »

hopefully they are going to determine how much of a problem it really is before inventing a solution
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W1BR

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2019, 06:41:04 AM »

Hopefully the BOD changes will result in proposed legislation that will be a beneficial for hams.  I don't think you will see anything happening overnight. 
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K7JQ

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2019, 08:20:24 AM »

hopefully they are going to determine how much of a problem it really is before inventing a solution

Oh, there's a problem all right. Antenna restrictions are preventing newer and younger hams from realizing the benefits of HF operating, causing them to eventually lose interest in the hobby. Inventing a solution is the real problem ;).
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KN6SD

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2019, 09:15:07 AM »

There is an ARRL board committee working on it, the Legislative Advisory Committee.

Have you heard when the committee will finish and report back to the Board?
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W1VT

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2019, 09:17:06 AM »

The Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2005 (Pub.L. 109–243, 120 Stat. 572, enacted July 24, 2006) is an Act of Congress that prohibits real estate management organizations from restricting homeowners from displaying the flag of the United States on their property.

My QRZ page shows an example of what someone in an HOA may be able to do.  Put up a flagpole that can also be used as an antenna.  Most of my ground radials are under the wheelchair ramp where you can't see it or running through bushes.
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KN6SD

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2019, 10:06:04 AM »

The Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2005 (Pub.L. 109–243, 120 Stat. 572, enacted July 24, 2006) is an Act of Congress that prohibits real estate management organizations from restricting homeowners from displaying the flag of the United States on their property.

My QRZ page shows an example of what someone in an HOA may be able to do.  Put up a flagpole that can also be used as an antenna.  Most of my ground radials are under the wheelchair ramp where you can't see it or running through bushes.

Sounds like that's working for you, but for others that want wire HF or small VHF/UHF antennas mounted outdoors, CC&R's will have to be addressed.
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NN4RH

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2019, 12:40:59 PM »

Have you heard when the committee will finish and report back to the Board?

There was a report submitted to the full Board at the July meeting, but it was not published, as I understand it, to protect the ARRL strategy in the meantime.

If you want to know more about what the ARRL Legislative Advisory Committee is up to, you should ask your ARRL Division Director (Pacific Division, if you're in Sacramento):

Pacific Division
Sections: East Bay · Sacramento Valley · Pacific · Nevada · San Francisco · San Joaquin Valley · Santa Clara Valley

Director:
Jim Tiemstra, K6JAT
510-569-6963
k6jat@arrl.org

https://pacific.arrl.org

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NN4RH

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2019, 01:05:32 PM »

What I do know that is publically available, is some filing activity with the FCC earlier this year.

There was a Proceeding, WT Docket 18-374, titled "2018 Biennial Review of Telecommunications Regulations", that came out at the very end of last year.

The proceeding had nothing to do with amateur radio; but the Community Association Institute (CAI) filed a long Comment that contained a lengthy discourse "PRB-1 and Community Association Covenants", that spelled out in detail their opposition to the FCC getting involved in amateur radio antenna restrictions and asking that the FCC "... take no action to expand the Commission's orders preempting state and local laws and regulations concerning amateur service communications to community association covenants.".  In other words, asking the FCC not to extend PRB-1 to cover ham radio antennas.

(I don't think extending PRB-1, as such, was ever in play ... ARPA was something quite different than PRB-1 ... but apparently for some unknown reason CAI wanted to get this on record .... anyway ...)

ARRL (under the new leadership and written by the new ARRL Counsel) filed a Reply Comment in response to that, pointing out that amateur radio is outside the scope of that proceeding and that the CAI comment should be disregarded. And the Reply Comment laid out a brief counter-arguments as to why the Commission should extend preemption to "private land use regulation".  

The CAI Comment reveals their thinking and strategy all in one place, which is helpful, in my opinion, to understanding their position and giving us an opportunity to rebut parts of it.

The ARRL Reply Comment might reveal some of the thinking that is going on behind the scenes at this point. Anyway, in my opinion the reply comment, though brief, was much more cogent and powerful than anything I had seen in recent years coming from the previous leadership and counsel. Just my opinion.


References:

CAI Comment on WT Docket 18-374.  
https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/10131057626987/Community%20Associations%20Institute_WT%20Docket%20No.%2018-374.pdf

ARRL Reply Comment on WT Docket 18-374.  
https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/1031223258993/ARRL%20FINAL%20WT%2018-374%2003_2019.pdf
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 01:10:35 PM by NN4RH »
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NN4RH

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2019, 01:11:35 PM »

Incidentally, Tiemstra is up for reelection in the current cycle, but appears to be unopposed.
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K1VSK

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2019, 02:19:25 PM »

hopefully they are going to determine how much of a problem it really is before inventing a solution

Oh, there's a problem all right. Antenna restrictions are preventing newer and younger hams from realizing the benefits of HF operating, causing them to eventually lose interest in the hobby. Inventing a solution is the real problem ;).

I’ve heard people stay that. How do you know? How many? Who quantified that universe of dejected children?

While not inconceivable there might be a few, neither Congress nor any Federal regulatory agency establishes law or regulation to avoid a perceived problem absent having some grasp of its magnitude. Thus far, no one has even tried to quantify it.

There is nothing to debate here as  no one can assess efficacy of any regulatory action without knowing who it affects or the need for it.

No doubt someone will come along with some dubious anecdotal story about some kid who can’t put up the antenna he/she wants. I personally know a few kids in our area who are active despite antenna limitations. It’s all about ingenuity and effort.
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KN6SD

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2019, 03:14:40 PM »

Have you heard when the committee will finish and report back to the Board?

There was a report submitted to the full Board at the July meeting, but it was not published, as I understand it, to protect the ARRL strategy in the meantime.

If you want to know more about what the ARRL Legislative Advisory Committee is up to, you should ask your ARRL Division Director (Pacific Division, if you're in Sacramento):

Pacific Division
Sections: East Bay · Sacramento Valley · Pacific · Nevada · San Francisco · San Joaquin Valley · Santa Clara Valley

Director:
Jim Tiemstra, K6JAT
510-569-6963
k6jat@arrl.org

https://pacific.arrl.org



Okay, Thanks for the update.. I thought (wrongfully) ARRL had dropped the ball completely on the CC&R situation..

73,
Russ
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K7JQ

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2019, 04:50:37 PM »

hopefully they are going to determine how much of a problem it really is before inventing a solution

Oh, there's a problem all right. Antenna restrictions are preventing newer and younger hams from realizing the benefits of HF operating, causing them to eventually lose interest in the hobby. Inventing a solution is the real problem ;).

I’ve heard people stay that. How do you know? How many? Who quantified that universe of dejected children?

While not inconceivable there might be a few, neither Congress nor any Federal regulatory agency establishes law or regulation to avoid a perceived problem absent having some grasp of its magnitude. Thus far, no one has even tried to quantify it.

There is nothing to debate here as  no one can assess efficacy of any regulatory action without knowing who it affects or the need for it.

No doubt someone will come along with some dubious anecdotal story about some kid who can’t put up the antenna he/she wants. I personally know a few kids in our area who are active despite antenna limitations. It’s all about ingenuity and effort.

Don K1VSK,

No, I can't quantify my statement with hard facts. I'm just stating a pretty logical theory that the proliferation of HOA/CC&R antenna restricted communities all over the nation is hurting HF activity, and eventually could spell the demise of ham radio as we know (or have known) it. Yes, now there are weak signal digital modes like FT8 that can be worked with marginal antennas and low power...basically a computer talking to a computer. But  IMO, it doesn't equal the thrill of physically talking or decoding CW with someone halfway around the world. 

Facts state that there are more licensed hams in the U.S. now than ever before. All well and good, but how many are active, other than carrying around VHF/UHF HT's? The youth movement for advancement in our hobby is completely stymied. Look at pictures of hams in the magazines and on the internet...90% old farts well over 60 years old (like me, over 70 :D).

When I started out in HR in 1959, there were no antenna restrictions. I had a Mosley TA-33 on a 25 foot tower on my parents' row house roof in Philadelphia. My teenage friends had similar scenarios all over the city and across the nation. Not happening now in the 21st century. All my buddies back then are now the old farts in the HR pictures. The young blood is sorely missed because their parents live in antenna restricted communities. And even the oldies are downsizing to newer (age-restricted) communities, and can't have the antennas (or any antennas) they had at their previous QTH.

Of course some of the blame can be put on today's technology... cell phones, internet, social media, video games, etc. But those that do become hams don't have the latitude that we had back then. Agreed, "Ingenuity and effort" is paramount to those that are truly interested in advancing through our great hobby. But even that can be daunting and virtually impossible by physical and legal limitations.

Again, this is just my opinion, just as I respect yours. But I think we can all agree that HOA/CC&R antenna restricted communities certainly aren't helping the advancement of our hobby. So far, any attempt at legislation to reach a compromise has fallen flat on its face. And that's a problem.

And now come the naysayers :D :D.......

73,  Bob K7JQ     

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WW5F

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2019, 05:27:15 PM »

I'm not counting on the battle for power between all levels of government.  It's pretty messed up as it is.  Our founders are rolling in their graves seeing the mess today they assumed wouldn't happen because they just assumed people would keep thinking like them, as documented in our founding documents and associated supporting documents.  I do disagree with the federal government interfering with the minutia of our lowest level of government--the Home Owner's Association.  How many levels of government are being skipped there?  What federal law are they citing which gives them the authority to regulate a neighborhood?

When my wife and I were searching for a house 11 years ago, we finally found one that fit our criteria.  I told my buying realtor, "This is it!"  "I just need to take a peek at the CC&R's before I make an offer."  He called the selling realtor and I heard her say, "What does he need see the CC&R's for?"

So, I can only assume most people buy a house and then find out they can't put up an antenna and then try to blame someone else.  (And are probably surprised by anything else in there, like, HOA dues...)

Anything the ARRL does on this is just pointless, if you ask me.  If they don't do anything, same results anyway.

Edit:  My CC&R's say "no antennae higher than 15 feet over the apex of the roof."  So, for me, that's a 30 foot telescopic pole with wires hanging from it.  I'm fine with that.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 05:38:31 PM by W5UAA »
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