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Author Topic: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!  (Read 4098 times)

K1VSK

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  • Posts: 1949
RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2019, 06:09:53 PM »

hopefully they are going to determine how much of a problem it really is before inventing a solution

Oh, there's a problem all right. Antenna restrictions are preventing newer and younger hams from realizing the benefits of HF operating, causing them to eventually lose interest in the hobby. Inventing a solution is the real problem ;).

I’ve heard people stay that. How do you know? How many? Who quantified that universe of dejected children?

While not inconceivable there might be a few, neither Congress nor any Federal regulatory agency establishes law or regulation to avoid a perceived problem absent having some grasp of its magnitude. Thus far, no one has even tried to quantify it.

There is nothing to debate here as  no one can assess efficacy of any regulatory action without knowing who it affects or the need for it.

No doubt someone will come along with some dubious anecdotal story about some kid who can’t put up the antenna he/she wants. I personally know a few kids in our area who are active despite antenna limitations. It’s all about ingenuity and effort.

Don K1VSK,

No, I can't quantify my statement with hard facts. I'm just stating a pretty logical theory that the proliferation of HOA/CC&R antenna restricted communities all over the nation is hurting HF activity, and eventually could spell the demise of ham radio as we know (or have known) it. Yes, now there are weak signal digital modes like FT8 that can be worked with marginal antennas and low power...basically a computer talking to a computer. But  IMO, it doesn't equal the thrill of physically talking or decoding CW with someone halfway around the world. 

Facts state that there are more licensed hams in the U.S. now than ever before. All well and good, but how many are active, other than carrying around VHF/UHF HT's? The youth movement for advancement in our hobby is completely stymied. Look at pictures of hams in the magazines and on the internet...90% old farts well over 60 years old (like me, over 70 :D).

When I started out in HR in 1959, there were no antenna restrictions. I had a Mosley TA-33 on a 25 foot tower on my parents' row house roof in Philadelphia. My teenage friends had similar scenarios all over the city and across the nation. Not happening now in the 21st century. All my buddies back then are now the old farts in the HR pictures. The young blood is sorely missed because their parents live in antenna restricted communities. And even the oldies are downsizing to newer (age-restricted) communities, and can't have the antennas (or any antennas) they had at their previous QTH.

Of course some of the blame can be put on today's technology... cell phones, internet, social media, video games, etc. But those that do become hams don't have the latitude that we had back then. Agreed, "Ingenuity and effort" is paramount to those that are truly interested in advancing through our great hobby. But even that can be daunting and virtually impossible by physical and legal limitations.

Again, this is just my opinion, just as I respect yours. But I think we can all agree that HOA/CC&R antenna restricted communities certainly aren't helping the advancement of our hobby. So far, any attempt at legislation to reach a compromise has fallen flat on its face. And that's a problem.

And now come the naysayers :D :D.......

73,  Bob K7JQ     



We can debate this but it’s pointless particularly as we are talking about assumptions and assumptions shouldn’t form the basis for legislation.


Even if there is a huge number of kids (or adults) wanting to enter the hobby actively, no one has shown any evidence antenna limitations precludes that.


If the ARRL seriously wanted to help hams, common sense dictates they would try to determine how big the problem is.  Certainly a more convincing argument could be made if the ARRL had numbers instead of assumptions.

Thus far, all we hear are presumptions and the noticeable absence of complaints from hams actually living in HOAs. Begs the question why the League seemingly has avoided trying to quantify this issue.

Lastly, I live in an HOA which has antenna limitations with which I abide and have worked 200 countries without trying very hard or often from his home. If I can, anyone can.

I asked the League on a few occasions why they haven’t tried even once to quantify this problem and the silence was telling.
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KN6SD

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  • Posts: 224
RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2019, 07:52:23 PM »

hopefully they are going to determine how much of a problem it really is before inventing a solution

Oh, there's a problem all right. Antenna restrictions are preventing newer and younger hams from realizing the benefits of HF operating, causing them to eventually lose interest in the hobby. Inventing a solution is the real problem ;).

I’ve heard people stay that. How do you know? How many? Who quantified that universe of dejected children?

While not inconceivable there might be a few, neither Congress nor any Federal regulatory agency establishes law or regulation to avoid a perceived problem absent having some grasp of its magnitude. Thus far, no one has even tried to quantify it.

There is nothing to debate here as  no one can assess efficacy of any regulatory action without knowing who it affects or the need for it.

No doubt someone will come along with some dubious anecdotal story about some kid who can’t put up the antenna he/she wants. I personally know a few kids in our area who are active despite antenna limitations. It’s all about ingenuity and effort.

Don K1VSK,

No, I can't quantify my statement with hard facts. I'm just stating a pretty logical theory that the proliferation of HOA/CC&R antenna restricted communities all over the nation is hurting HF activity, and eventually could spell the demise of ham radio as we know (or have known) it. Yes, now there are weak signal digital modes like FT8 that can be worked with marginal antennas and low power...basically a computer talking to a computer. But  IMO, it doesn't equal the thrill of physically talking or decoding CW with someone halfway around the world. 

Facts state that there are more licensed hams in the U.S. now than ever before. All well and good, but how many are active, other than carrying around VHF/UHF HT's? The youth movement for advancement in our hobby is completely stymied. Look at pictures of hams in the magazines and on the internet...90% old farts well over 60 years old (like me, over 70 :D).

When I started out in HR in 1959, there were no antenna restrictions. I had a Mosley TA-33 on a 25 foot tower on my parents' row house roof in Philadelphia. My teenage friends had similar scenarios all over the city and across the nation. Not happening now in the 21st century. All my buddies back then are now the old farts in the HR pictures. The young blood is sorely missed because their parents live in antenna restricted communities. And even the oldies are downsizing to newer (age-restricted) communities, and can't have the antennas (or any antennas) they had at their previous QTH.

Of course some of the blame can be put on today's technology... cell phones, internet, social media, video games, etc. But those that do become hams don't have the latitude that we had back then. Agreed, "Ingenuity and effort" is paramount to those that are truly interested in advancing through our great hobby. But even that can be daunting and virtually impossible by physical and legal limitations.

Again, this is just my opinion, just as I respect yours. But I think we can all agree that HOA/CC&R antenna restricted communities certainly aren't helping the advancement of our hobby. So far, any attempt at legislation to reach a compromise has fallen flat on its face. And that's a problem.

And now come the naysayers :D :D.......

73,  Bob K7JQ     



We can debate this but it’s pointless particularly as we are talking about assumptions and assumptions shouldn’t form the basis for legislation.


Even if there is a huge number of kids (or adults) wanting to enter the hobby actively, no one has shown any evidence antenna limitations precludes that.


If the ARRL seriously wanted to help hams, common sense dictates they would try to determine how big the problem is.  Certainly a more convincing argument could be made if the ARRL had numbers instead of assumptions.

Thus far, all we hear are presumptions and the noticeable absence of complaints from hams actually living in HOAs. Begs the question why the League seemingly has avoided trying to quantify this issue.

Lastly, I live in an HOA which has antenna limitations with which I abide and have worked 200 countries without trying very hard or often from his home. If I can, anyone can.

I asked the League on a few occasions why they haven’t tried even once to quantify this problem and the silence was telling.


I don't know if HOA's are a major problem for Hams, but I have heard boilerplate CC&R antenna restrictions are and have been a problem for over 25 years. Some CC&R's even have an outright ban on Ham & CB transmitters being used in the development.

I believe an HOA should be required to accommodate antennas with low visual impact on the neighborhood. As long as the HOA makes some rules that are accommodating to Amateur antennas, I don't believe the HOA rules should be completely pre-empted by the FCC.

73,
Russ
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K1VSK

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  • Posts: 1949
RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2019, 06:02:22 AM »



I don't know if HOA's are a major problem for Hams, but I have heard boilerplate CC&R antenna restrictions are and have been a problem for over 25 years. Some CC&R's even have an outright ban on Ham & CB transmitters being used in the development.

I believe an HOA should be required to accommodate antennas with low visual impact on the neighborhood. As long as the HOA makes some rules that are accommodating to Amateur antennas, I don't believe the HOA rules should be completely pre-empted by the FCC.

73,
Russ

What leads you to believe HOAs don't or can't presently make accommodations? I know ours and many others do and have consistently done so.

Of all the HOAs I am aware of (and Florida has a few), each makes provisions for accommodations for various rules. In just one month recently, our HOA approved over 200 modifications for various requests by residents. antennas being only one example.

Again, no one has any data demonstrating:
1.  how onerous antenna limitations actually is, or
2.  how many HOAs do or do not allow flexibility to accommodate antennas, or
3.  how many hams are affected negatively by limitations, or
4.  how legislative action would change any of the above.

That lack of clarity doesn't need to exist but does provide a smoke screen to claim a problem exists which very well may not exist. Congress doesn't nor should it enact legislation based only on assumptions.
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ND6M

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2019, 07:33:27 AM »

... edit...
Again, no one has any data demonstrating:
1.  how onerous antenna limitations actually is, or
2.  how many HOAs do or do not allow flexibility to accommodate antennas, or
3.  how many hams are affected negatively by limitations, or
4.  how legislative action would change any of the above.

That lack of clarity doesn't need to exist but does provide a smoke screen to claim a problem exists which very well may not exist. Congress doesn't nor should it enact legislation based only on assumptions.

Agree 100%, the arrl doesn't seem to want to correct any so called "problems", they just want to appear to be relevant.

The arrl, ......................proudly representing 18% of all Amateurs. ::)
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KN6SD

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  • Posts: 224
RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2019, 09:29:52 AM »



I don't know if HOA's are a major problem for Hams, but I have heard boilerplate CC&R antenna restrictions are and have been a problem for over 25 years. Some CC&R's even have an outright ban on Ham & CB transmitters being used in the development.

I believe an HOA should be required to accommodate antennas with low visual impact on the neighborhood. As long as the HOA makes some rules that are accommodating to Amateur antennas, I don't believe the HOA rules should be completely pre-empted by the FCC.

73,
Russ

What leads you to believe HOAs don't or can't presently make accommodations? I know ours and many others do and have consistently done so.

Of all the HOAs I am aware of (and Florida has a few), each makes provisions for accommodations for various rules. In just one month recently, our HOA approved over 200 modifications for various requests by residents. antennas being only one example.

Again, no one has any data demonstrating:
1.  how onerous antenna limitations actually is, or
2.  how many HOAs do or do not allow flexibility to accommodate antennas, or
3.  how many hams are affected negatively by limitations, or
4.  how legislative action would change any of the above.

That lack of clarity doesn't need to exist but does provide a smoke screen to claim a problem exists which very well may not exist. Congress doesn't nor should it enact legislation based only on assumptions.

Evidently enough hams are impacted by the CC&R/HOA situation and that caused the League to get involved.

People need to be reasonable.. If you purchased in an HOA, you're not getting a tower, probably because the Lots are to small. But, I seriously doubt an HF Wire and a Diamond X-300 will severely impact the property values or quality of life in the neighborhood.

BTW: CAI (Community Associations Institute) is far from reasonable, they appose everything, including American Flags, solar panels, clothes lines, etc..
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W8LV

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2019, 09:49:02 AM »

K1VSK Said:

"Again, no one has any data demonstrating:
1.  how onerous antenna limitations actually is, or
2.  how many HOAs do or do not allow flexibility to accommodate antennas, or
3.  how many hams are affected negatively by limitations, or
4.  how legislative action would change any of the above."

Oh yes they Do!
The ARRL did a Survey and has PLENTY of information: 90% of Florida has HOAs, will NOT allow Amateur Radio antennas, and it's getting WORSE.
So much for #1,#2, and #3.

#4? It would remove the HOA Man from his power.
And he knows it...

It's why we have a NEED for legislation.

73 DE W8LV BILL
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 09:53:30 AM by W8LV »
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K1VSK

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2019, 10:26:21 AM »


The ARRL did a Survey and has PLENTY of information.



Where is it? Can you support that claim with any evidence? Your response should be interesting...

Not a single one of the numerous hams I know living in an HOA (nor anyone else) have ever been asked - must be some “double secret” survey. Did they only ask you?
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NN4RH

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2019, 11:31:49 AM »



Where is it? Can you support that claim with any evidence? Your response should be interesting...

Not a single one of the numerous hams I know living in an HOA (nor anyone else) have ever been asked - must be some “double secret” survey. Did they only ask you?

RE: "Survey"

Sort of. In the ARRL Comments filed on Docket 12-91, COMMISSION SEEKS COMMENT ON EMERGENCY COMMUNICATIONS BY AMATEUR RADIO AND IMPEDIMENTS TO AMATEUR RADIO COMMUNICATIONS, the ARRL alludes to " . . . a very short online survey of those Commission-licensed radio Amateurs who are both active in emergency communications and currently subject to residential private land use restrictions where they live. "

I don't remember this survey,  and have not been able to find it on the ARRL web site, but in that Comment to Docket 12-91 they include " Exhibit C hereto is a compilation of the language provided by some of the survey respondents. Exhibit D is a compilation of but a few examples of the experiences of radio Amateurs whose Amateur Radio emergency communications efforts have been foreclosed by or severely curtailed as the direct result of private land use regulations."

If you don't remember, this was the famous "Study" that the ARRL got the Congress to mandate, which was intended to prove that antenna restrictions were impeding or preventing emergency communications. The ARRL wanted DHS to conduct the "Study" because they had someone on the inside who would give them the result they wanted; but the Congress assigned it to the FCC, which found that antenna restrictions were NOT precluding or impeding emergency communications, just the opposite of what the ARRL wanted! 

The "Study" was supposed to provide the support for ARPA. Despite the failure of the study, ARRL went ahead with ARPA anyway, and we should remember what happened from there over the following several years.
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K1VSK

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  • Posts: 1949
RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2019, 12:24:29 PM »



Where is it? Can you support that claim with any evidence? Your response should be interesting...

Not a single one of the numerous hams I know living in an HOA (nor anyone else) have ever been asked - must be some “double secret” survey. Did they only ask you?

RE: "Survey"

Sort of. In the ARRL Comments filed on Docket 12-91, COMMISSION SEEKS COMMENT ON EMERGENCY COMMUNICATIONS BY AMATEUR RADIO AND IMPEDIMENTS TO AMATEUR RADIO COMMUNICATIONS, the ARRL alludes to " . . . a very short online survey of those Commission-licensed radio Amateurs who are both active in emergency communications and currently subject to residential private land use restrictions where they live. "

I don't remember this survey,  and have not been able to find it on the ARRL web site, but in that Comment to Docket 12-91 they include " Exhibit C hereto is a compilation of the language provided by some of the survey respondents. Exhibit D is a compilation of but a few examples of the experiences of radio Amateurs whose Amateur Radio emergency communications efforts have been foreclosed by or severely curtailed as the direct result of private land use regulations."

If you don't remember, this was the famous "Study" that the ARRL got the Congress to mandate, which was intended to prove that antenna restrictions were impeding or preventing emergency communications. The ARRL wanted DHS to conduct the "Study" because they had someone on the inside who would give them the result they wanted; but the Congress assigned it to the FCC, which found that antenna restrictions were NOT precluding or impeding emergency communications, just the opposite of what the ARRL wanted! 

The "Study" was supposed to provide the support for ARPA. Despite the failure of the study, ARRL went ahead with ARPA anyway, and we should remember what happened from there over the following several years.

I recall reading that, however, it doesn’t speak to or cover any of the 4 questions I asked nor does it provide any “cover” to w8lv’s claim that any quantifiable data exists to prove his assumption.

And we all know why...
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W8LV

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2019, 12:51:36 PM »

Why...Here it is, K1VSK!!!!

Would you like a side of Mayo on the side with that?
Or maybe Humble Pie for Desert?

Source: Amateur Radio Parity Act: Setting the Record Straight

"... 90 percent of new housing starts in the United States are subject to private land-use restrictions. Virtually all of these have provisions that either prohibit outdoor Amateur Radio antennas outright, or else subject amateurs to the unlimited discretion of Homeowners’ Associations (HOAs) which can, and almost always do, reject requests for outdoor antennas (except over the air video delivery antennas, which they can’t prohibit any longer due to Congressional action in 1996) ..."

73 DE W8LV BILL
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 12:53:39 PM by W8LV »
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NN4RH

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2019, 01:10:09 PM »

Why...Here it is, K1VSK!!!!

Would you like a side of Mayo on the side with that?
Or maybe Humble Pie for Desert?

Source: Amateur Radio Parity Act: Setting the Record Straight

"... 90 percent of new housing starts in the United States are subject to private land-use restrictions. Virtually all of these have provisions that either prohibit outdoor Amateur Radio antennas outright, or else subject amateurs to the unlimited discretion of Homeowners’ Associations (HOAs) which can, and almost always do, reject requests for outdoor antennas (except over the air video delivery antennas, which they can’t prohibit any longer due to Congressional action in 1996) ..."

73 DE W8LV BILL

That is not a survey, which is what you asserted existed.  Actually it is not clear where that “90%” comes from.  

The National Association of Home Builders cites Census Bureau study that say the number of new single family home starts with HOAs is only 61% (as of 2016) nationwide.

Ref: http://eyeonhousing.org/2018/08/share-of-2017-new-single-family-houses-in-a-homeowners-association/
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KN6SD

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  • Posts: 224
RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2019, 01:59:18 PM »

Why...Here it is, K1VSK!!!!

Would you like a side of Mayo on the side with that?
Or maybe Humble Pie for Desert?

Source: Amateur Radio Parity Act: Setting the Record Straight

"... 90 percent of new housing starts in the United States are subject to private land-use restrictions. Virtually all of these have provisions that either prohibit outdoor Amateur Radio antennas outright, or else subject amateurs to the unlimited discretion of Homeowners’ Associations (HOAs) which can, and almost always do, reject requests for outdoor antennas (except over the air video delivery antennas, which they can’t prohibit any longer due to Congressional action in 1996) ..."

73 DE W8LV BILL

That is not a survey, which is what you asserted existed.  Actually it is not clear where that “90%” comes from.  

The National Association of Home Builders cites Census Bureau study that say the number of new single family home starts with HOAs is only 61% (as of 2016) nationwide.

Ref: http://eyeonhousing.org/2018/08/share-of-2017-new-single-family-houses-in-a-homeowners-association/

61% of new housing is "HOA", that is pretty high.. If it was around 30%, I would say HOA's may not have much of an impact on Amateur Operations, but 61% is going to have a negative impact.... That's 6 out of 10 houses...
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W9IQ

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2019, 02:18:51 PM »

Quote
Nationally, 61% of new single-family houses completed were in a [sic] HOA, up from 46% in 2009.

That is an incredible growth rate. We should be concerned.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K1VSK

  • Member
  • Posts: 1949
RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2019, 03:00:58 PM »

Why...Here it is, K1VSK!!!!

Would you like a side of Mayo on the side with that?
Or maybe Humble Pie for Desert?

Source: Amateur Radio Parity Act: Setting the Record Straight

"... 90 percent of new housing starts in the United States are subject to private land-use restrictions. Virtually all of these have provisions that either prohibit outdoor Amateur Radio antennas outright, or else subject amateurs to the unlimited discretion of Homeowners’ Associations (HOAs) which can, and almost always do, reject requests for outdoor antennas (except over the air video delivery antennas, which they can’t prohibit any longer due to Congressional action in 1996) ..."

73 DE W8LV BILL

When you are stuck in a hole, stop digging!

You add nothing to the debate. Can you support your claim that the League did anything substantive to include data as you said or are you an empty windbag?

It’s a simple question.
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W9IQ

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2019, 04:40:05 PM »

The numbers are even more compelling when you consider that ~26% of hams live in California, Florida and Texas. These regions saw 67-68% of new single family homes associated with HOAs.

It appears that statistically,  ~80,000 hams live in HOA areas using simple population slices cited by HOA associations. That does not account for the age distribution of hams which would likely push that higher.

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 04:53:19 PM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.
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