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Author Topic: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!  (Read 4100 times)

W9IQ

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2019, 06:56:06 PM »

After reading some more statistics from the HOAs, we have ~195,000 hams living in HOAs. That is significant.

- Glenn W9IQ

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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KN6SD

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2019, 08:30:12 PM »

Unfortunately, this thread has gotten a little off topic..

Some folks are arguing about whether or not the ARRL and Congress should take some kind of action regarding antenna restrictions.

I believe ARRL / FCC should take some kind of action against individuals/local governments the use CC&R's as a back door form of legislation to ban antennas and two-way radios.

So my original question was, "Is the ARRL pursuing a legislative solution to the CC&R problem that Hams face". I received an informative post advising me of some movement in the area of CC&R relief. 

So that sounds good to me, ARRL keep up the good work...
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KN6SD

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2019, 10:00:58 PM »

Unfortunately, this thread has gotten a little off topic..

Some folks are arguing about whether or not the ARRL and Congress should take some kind of action regarding antenna restrictions.

I believe ARRL / FCC should take some kind of action against individuals/local governments the use CC&R's as a back door form of legislation to ban antennas and two-way radios.

So my original question was, "Is the ARRL pursuing a legislative solution to the CC&R problem that Hams face". I received an informative post advising me of some movement in the area of CC&R relief. 

So that sounds good to me, ARRL keep up the good work...

And for the record, I have made up my mind about HOA's...

I did some reading about them at sites like this one http://neighborsatwar.com/

I am NOT Interested in any of CAI's fluff about the HOA utopia that's supposed to exist....

73,
Russ
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W8LV

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2019, 12:29:43 AM »

K1VSK Said: "When you are stuck in a hole, stop digging!"

Don, I SOURCED said material!

For you to pretend otherwise as you do?

Just points out all the more why we need legislation
to preempt the HOAs right out of the Amateur Radio Antenna regulating business.

73 DE W8LV BILL








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K1VSK

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2019, 05:55:43 AM »



Don, I SOURCED said material!

73 DE W8LV BILL


You are repeating yourself without actually saying anything.

All I asked you was from where. You must have a source, right - you wouldn’t ‘make this stuff up - right? Thus far, you haven’t provided anything responsive. If you have any data, reference, source or verifiable information, you haven’t shown anyone yet. Why not? Is it imaginary?



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K7JQ

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2019, 07:52:11 AM »

Verifiable statistics showing that HOA/CC&R antenna restrictions are a "real" and pervasive problem for ham radio are all well and good. But it's easy to question whether it's problematic when YOUR HOA has accommodated YOU for antennas. If you were flatly denied, would you be singing a different tune? I'm referring to anyone that feels government legislation should not interfere with private CC&R land use regulations. That notion has already been upset with the OTARD and flagpole (and other) legislation against previous CC&R prohibitions.

Understand that I have no sympathy for those that moved into such a community without reading the CC&R's (or reading and ignoring them), and then bitch and moan that they couldn't erect that tower and beam they brought from their previous house.  They just didn't do their due diligence, and it's their own fault. Personally, I moved to my HOA/CC&R community 17 years ago, fully knowing the antenna restrictions. My living condition priorities superseded the desire for large antennas. After being turned down by the Architectural Committee for a multi-band vertical, I managed to develop stealth antennas (attic dipoles and ground-mounted screwdriver) that no one can see. I've since worked over 285 countries and enjoy contesting with them. Yes, innovation, compromise, and desire can still get you on the air. But other than antenna restrictions, I have no problem with the other CC&R provisions. I love my neighborhood, and enjoy living here.

But, despite the lack of "statistics", I firmly believe that the continued proliferation of antenna restricted/prohibited communities is severely stifling the progression and advancement of amateur radio. I don't see a problem to at least keep trying to get some kind of legislation passed to accommodate some form of visible HR antennas. So far, nothing has worked. I don't have an answer what will. Maybe some day...... ::)

73, Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2019, 08:54:13 AM »

Verifiable statistics showing that HOA/CC&R antenna restrictions are a "real" and pervasive problem for ham radio are all well and good. But it's easy to question whether it's problematic when YOUR HOA has accommodated YOU for antennas. If you were flatly denied, would you be singing a different tune? I'm referring to anyone that feels government legislation should not interfere with private CC&R land use regulations. That notion has already been upset with the OTARD and flagpole (and other) legislation against previous CC&R prohibitions.

Understand that I have no sympathy for those that moved into such a community without reading the CC&R's (or reading and ignoring them), and then bitch and moan that they couldn't erect that tower and beam they brought from their previous house.  They just didn't do their due diligence, and it's their own fault. Personally, I moved to my HOA/CC&R community 17 years ago, fully knowing the antenna restrictions. My living condition priorities superseded the desire for large antennas. After being turned down by the Architectural Committee for a multi-band vertical, I managed to develop stealth antennas (attic dipoles and ground-mounted screwdriver) that no one can see. I've since worked over 285 countries and enjoy contesting with them. Yes, innovation, compromise, and desire can still get you on the air. But other than antenna restrictions, I have no problem with the other CC&R provisions. I love my neighborhood, and enjoy living here.

But, despite the lack of "statistics", I firmly believe that the continued proliferation of antenna restricted/prohibited communities is severely stifling the progression and advancement of amateur radio. I don't see a problem to at least keep trying to get some kind of legislation passed to accommodate some form of visible HR antennas. So far, nothing has worked. I don't have an answer what will. Maybe some day...... ::)

73, Bob K7JQ

Clearly, many hams believe that, however, perceptions don’t make a firm basis on which to enact laws.

As you have, many others living in HOAs including myself continue to enjoy our hobby which is evidence antenna limitations precludes nothing. 

That some advocate creating a fix to a problem having no clarity is interesting - how do we know the solution works, fixes anything or in fact makes the problem worse as in the case of the previous ARRL attempts?
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W8LV

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2019, 10:05:56 AM »

K1VSK Said:
"All I asked you was from where. You must have a source, right - you wouldn’t ‘make this stuff up - right? Thus far, you haven’t provided anything responsive. If you have any data, reference, source or verifiable information, you haven’t shown anyone yet. Why not? Is it imaginary?"

Don, I QUOTED the SOURCE, everyone sees it here but you,
for some reason. Did you miss it?
 
Here it is again, Don: Source, Title, Quote:

Source: ARRL

From: "Amateur Radio Parity Act: Setting the Record Straight"

"... 90 percent of new housing starts in the United States are subject to private land-use restrictions. Virtually all of these have provisions that either prohibit outdoor Amateur Radio antennas outright, or else subject amateurs to the unlimited discretion of Homeowners’ Associations (HOAs) which can, and almost always do, reject requests for outdoor antennas (except over the air video delivery antennas, which they can’t prohibit any longer due to Congressional action in 1996) ..."

73 DE W8LV BILL


« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 10:10:58 AM by W8LV »
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KN6SD

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2019, 10:14:11 AM »

Some Hams that post on the HOA/CC&R situation seem to be very PRO HOA.

It's just my opinion, but a Ham that doesn't want an outdoor antenna is either some kind of "Odd Ball" anti-antenna ham, or is simply living in denial and prefers to listen to static generated by his/her home electrical system instead of communicating with other hams.

It's my understanding the HOA Hams can I.D. what thermostats their neighbors have by the type of RF hash that's generated.. Sounds like a HOT DX item to look for :^)

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WW5F

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2019, 11:06:53 AM »

HOA/CC&Rs do some good.

I don't worry about my neighbor turning his front yard into an automobile junk yard.
I don't worry about waking up to my neighbor's roosters every morning.
I don't worry about my neighbor strip mining his yard and then installing an oil well/pump outside my bedroom window.
I don't worry about the house next door turning into a drug den/gambling hall/house of prostitution/all night rock 'n roll bar/taco stand with Mariachi band/fight club location.

If there's an exception made for 100 foot eye-sore towers interfering with neighbor's electronics, then exceptions can be made for everybody else's "right" to impose themselves on their neighbors, too.

I live in an HOA/CC&R neighborhood.  I read my CC&R's and agreed to them *before* I made an offer on this house.  (The selling realtor couldn't believe I was interested in seeing them! -- that says a LOT about most buyers.)  I have outside antennas (with a "no higher than 15 feet over the apex of the roof" limitation)--otherwise it would have been a deal killer.  I'm up to 114 or 115 DXCC entities confirmed now.

I'm tired of the federal government imposing themselves and usurping power "reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."  I've been tired of it for many years.  And I'm tired of people petitioning the federal government to do something about something they could have done something about before if they had done their homework.

It is my belief what ever the ARRL does, or can do, it'll be meaningless fluff.

Carry on.  Listen for me on 80/40/20 CW during the Texas QSO Party.  Peace out.
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K1VSK

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2019, 11:20:42 AM »


Don, I QUOTED the source
 
Here it is again, Don: Source, Title, Quote:

Source: ARRL

From: "Amateur Radio Parity Act: Setting the Record Straight"
Unresponsive meaningless nonsense! Is that all you’ve got?
I guess you forgot the questions. To reiterate,
Where is a shred of evidence:
1.  how onerous antenna limitations actually is,  (need numbers to obviate your assumption), or
2.  how many HOAs do or do not allow flexibility to accommodate antennas, (do you know?),  or
3.  how many hams are affected negatively by limitations, or
4.  how legislative action would change any of the above.

It’s clear neither you nor the League doesn’t have a clue. Save some semblance of credibility and admit it.
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W8LV

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2019, 06:16:05 PM »

K1VSK Said: "Unresponsive meaningless nonsense! Is that all you’ve got?
I guess you forgot the questions. To reiterate,
Where is a shred of evidence:
1.  how onerous antenna limitations actually is,  (need numbers to obviate your assumption), or
2.  how many HOAs do or do not allow flexibility to accommodate antennas, (do you know?),  or
3.  how many hams are affected negatively by limitations, or
4.  how legislative action would change any of the above.

It’s clear neither you nor the League doesn’t have a clue. Save some semblance of credibility and admit it."

Oh Boy, Don…Please rest assured that the ARRL and I most definitely DO have a clue when it comes to HOA Hanky Panky and General Shenanigans! I would have thought that you would have known this from the past, and I don't know how a Former Administrative Law Judge could have missed this, but Okie Dokie, I'll be happy to break down the ARRL's study for you. As a matter of fact, I'm Glad that you asked!

Firstly, to reiterate: Here is the Source, Title and VERBATIM Quote from the ARRL:

From: "Amateur Radio Parity Act: Setting the Record Straight"

"... 90 percent of new housing starts in the United States are subject to private land-use restrictions. Virtually all of these have provisions that either prohibit outdoor Amateur Radio antennas outright, or else subject amateurs to the unlimited discretion of Homeowners’ Associations (HOAs) which can, and almost always do, reject requests for outdoor antennas (except over the air video delivery antennas, which they can’t prohibit any longer due to Congressional action in 1996) ..."

And now your questions, Don, (skipping the "or's" and making them into "ands" and answering each and every one of them:

K1VSK asks: Where is a shred of evidence:
1.  how onerous antenna limitations actually is,  (need numbers to obviate your assumption)

Answer 90% at the time of the paper, and very likely worse now.


K1VSK Don asks: 2.  how many HOAs do or do not allow flexibility to accommodate antennas, (do you know?)
Answer: Virtually All HOAs prohibit amateur radio antennas and Almost Always won't approve Amateur Radio antennas.


K1VSK Don asks: 3.  how many hams are affected negatively by limitations
Answer: That would be all of the hams in HOAs, excepting you as you told us, and any others you may know about.
(P.S.Don: Please feel free to list others that you know of for all of us to see here... Inquiring Minds want to know!)

K1VSK Don asks: 4.  how legislative action would change any of the above.

Answer: It would prevent amateur radio antennas from being prohibited by HOAs, such as the over the air video delivery antennas, which they can’t prohibit any longer due to Congressional action in 1996.


73 And All the Best!
DE W8LV BILL


« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 06:25:15 PM by W8LV »
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K1VSK

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2019, 07:34:09 PM »

K1VSK Said: "Unresponsive meaningless nonsense! Is that all you’ve got?
I guess you forgot the questions. To reiterate,
Where is a shred of evidence:
1.  how onerous antenna limitations actually is,  (need numbers to obviate your assumption), or
2.  how many HOAs do or do not allow flexibility to accommodate antennas, (do you know?),  or
3.  how many hams are affected negatively by limitations, or
4.  how legislative action would change any of the above.

It’s clear neither you nor the League doesn’t have a clue. Save some semblance of credibility and admit it."

Oh Boy, Don…Please rest assured that the ARRL and I most definitely DO have a clue when it comes to HOA Hanky Panky and General Shenanigans! I would have thought that you would have known this from the past, and I don't know how a Former Administrative Law Judge could have missed this, but Okie Dokie, I'll be happy to break down the ARRL's study for you. As a matter of fact, I'm Glad that you asked!

Firstly, to reiterate: Here is the Source, Title and VERBATIM Quote from the ARRL:

From: "Amateur Radio Parity Act: Setting the Record Straight"

"... 90 percent of new housing starts in the United States are subject to private land-use restrictions. Virtually all of these have provisions that either prohibit outdoor Amateur Radio antennas outright, or else subject amateurs to the unlimited discretion of Homeowners’ Associations (HOAs) which can, and almost always do, reject requests for outdoor antennas (except over the air video delivery antennas, which they can’t prohibit any longer due to Congressional action in 1996) ..."

And now your questions, Don, (skipping the "or's" and making them into "ands" and answering each and every one of them:

K1VSK asks: Where is a shred of evidence:
1.  how onerous antenna limitations actually is,  (need numbers to obviate your assumption)

Answer 90% at the time of the paper, and very likely worse now.


K1VSK Don asks: 2.  how many HOAs do or do not allow flexibility to accommodate antennas, (do you know?)
Answer: Virtually All HOAs prohibit amateur radio antennas and Almost Always won't approve Amateur Radio antennas.


K1VSK Don asks: 3.  how many hams are affected negatively by limitations
Answer: That would be all of the hams in HOAs, excepting you as you told us, and any others you may know about.
(P.S.Don: Please feel free to list others that you know of for all of us to see here... Inquiring Minds want to know!)

K1VSK Don asks: 4.  how legislative action would change any of the above.

Answer: It would prevent amateur radio antennas from being prohibited by HOAs, such as the over the air video delivery antennas, which they can’t prohibit any longer due to Congressional action in 1996.


73 And All the Best!
DE W8LV BILL




Seriously?

I got what I expected - nothing.

You have no clue and you clearly are eager to prove that.

For anyone else reading this farce, during the 1month period of August 5 to Sept 5, our HOA approved 216 modification to the rules in this one HOA, 7 of which were for antennas (of 8 total applications). The 8th was denied based on the proposal to install a 35 ft tower with guy wires, one of which would run over the house and anchor in the front yard.

Reasonable accommodations may not be universal within HOAs but clearly exist - no one knows how many.

There are over 50 hams in our HOA.  I know almost all and only one ( the guy who wants to erect a tower) is unhappy about the rules (with which he was aware and to which he agreed).  With that one exception, none want or need any version of ARAP and that one wouldn’t be allowed a tower regardless of whether some ARPA clone was enacted.

Again, no one knows how many HOA resident hams are not satisfied with the status quo.

Would it help some hams living in HOAs?    It might help some but again, no one knows how many or to what extend. Nor does anyone know if these affected residents even care or want change - nobody ever asked them! And certainly not the ARRL.

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W9IQ

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2019, 07:59:04 PM »

Reasonable accommodations may not be universal within HOAs but clearly exist - no one knows how many.

Again, no one knows how many HOA resident hams are not satisfied with the status quo.

Would it help some hams living in HOAs?    It might help some but again, no one knows how many or to what extend. Nor does anyone know if these affected residents even care or want change - nobody ever asked them! And certainly not the ARRL.

Then it would seem that a law that required reasonable accommodation would not have a negative effect on you nor would it negatively impact  HOA hams that "don't care or don't want change". Clearly it wouldn't force any ham to do anything differently.

It would, however, have a positive impact on all of the other HOA hams.

Given a population of ~190,000 HOA hams today and with the significant growth rate of HOA properties and additional licensees, it makes sense to me that ARRL should pursue reasonable accommodation legislation.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

W8LV

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2019, 08:23:27 PM »

Don,

I gave you exactly what you asked for:
The Source, The Title, The Verbatim Quote,
AND The Answers to your questions.
That you don't LIKE the answers, doesn't mean that
they haven't been answered. I answered them.
The ARRL has spoken on this, and will continue to...
You can BET on it, Don!

The Heavy-Handed Bully HOAs will go the way of the Berlin Wall,
and other really bad ideas, and be placed on the Great Ash Heap of History.
It's just a matter of time, Don: Because We're Mad as Hell, and we aren't going to take it anymore.

It's already happened with Municipalities, witness PRB-1.
And it's already happened with HOAs with Satellite Dishes:
The March of Time is moving away from Tyranny and towards Freedom!

If you have further questions, Please contact your ARRL Section Manager,
and Please SUPPORT HIM, along with our ARRL by keeping your membership
active, and renewing or joining the ARRL if you aren't already a member.

Legislation to STOP the HOAs from prohibiting antennas will allow you and the fifty hams that you claim to know and who you claim live in an Amateur Radio Friendly HOA along with yourself to communicate with those in all the rest of the HOAs who don't allow antennas in the present!

We'd also like to hear from those fifty hams that you claim to know there, and I hope that you will share with the rest of us your specific antenna set-up that you have and have been so successful with!


73 and All the Best!
DE W8LV Bill
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