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Author Topic: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!  (Read 4103 times)

K1VSK

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2019, 06:13:20 AM »



Then it would seem that a law that required reasonable accommodation would not have a negative effect on you nor would it negatively impact  HOA hams that "don't care or don't want change". Clearly it wouldn't force any ham to do anything differently.

It would, however, have a positive impact on all of the other HOA hams.

Given a population of ~190,000 HOA hams

- Glenn W9IQ

All I can tell you is that those hypothetical 190k hams seem largely disinterested in changing anything. If they were interested, we would see them here in huge numbers complaining. But they aren’t.

As to the “do no harm” theory you suggest, all the ARRL’s failed attempts would quite possibly have caused harm in that it would have forced HOAs to write prescriptive rules for antennas potentially exacerbating the current situation - HOAs opposed to antennas wouldn’t change their attitude; they would simply codify it.

None  of us has any clarity on this ‘problem’. All I and many others suggest (and have to the League) is to define the problem before trying to fix it. That they haven’t is startling.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 06:16:41 AM by K1VSK »
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W8LV

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2019, 07:06:06 AM »

K1VSK Said: "All I can tell you is that those hypothetical 190k hams seem largely disinterested in changing anything. If they were interested, we would see them here in huge numbers complaining. But they aren’t"

How did you come to this conclusion?
Did you survey these hams?
Where's YOUR Facts and Data?

Don, If you think that those hams are largely disinterested and not complaining, we wouldn't see the ARRL working on the problem through legal and legislative channels as they have.
They do this when they hear from their membership. And if you don't think that they are not looking at the problem and are not going to try and address it again, you're just kidding yourself.

With all due respect, HOA Fanboy Trolling, Blustering, and Bullying of this forum isn't in the best interests of Amateur Radio. While you write from your own HOA Experience which you and perhaps a few others have found to be positive, searching back through the eham.net forum doesn't find that so for the majority of hams who have to deal with HOAs. Nor was it for the majority of Satellite Dish owners, who upped the game with an outright prohibition on HOAs saying "no" to them. Ditto hams dealing with Municipalities, hence PRB-1.And please don't tell us that it's just too complicated to make a law to do that in HOAs:It's worked Just Fine and Dandy in Municipalities with very few problems.

It would be much more positive, I think, if you would share your own particular Amateur Radio Antenna Setup with the rest of us, as it sounds like you've had good success with it, and that would be QUITE Interesting!

After observing Florida HOA properties firsthand this Summer, I have suggested elsewhere that using one's boat as a "mobile Repeater" should you have one in Florida might be a good way to operate from those properties. As most already have the HF backstay antenna already equipped, One could do this from battery power located on the boat, or even from shore power, crosslinking with UHF/VHF. Yet more possibilities arise with internet interfaces, which would allow for a combination of methods to access an HF rig, as is usually already located on the boat. What would be your opinion on operating this way? Have you ever tried it, or know anyone who has?

73 and All the Best!
DE W8LV BILL

« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 07:27:26 AM by W8LV »
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N8AUC

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2019, 09:01:47 AM »

It’s clear neither you nor the League doesn’t have a clue. Save some semblance of credibility and admit it.

OK. Now this is getting funny.

So if neither Bill nor the ARRL "doesn't have a clue", does that mean they both really do have a clue?

Take a deep breath, and think before you hit that "post" button.
To quote a famous movie line, "I do not think that means what you think it means".

« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 09:05:22 AM by N8AUC »
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K1VSK

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2019, 09:10:15 AM »

It’s clear neither you nor the League doesn’t have a clue. Save some semblance of credibility and admit it.

OK. Now this is getting funny.

So if neither Bill nor the ARRL "doesn't have a clue", does that mean they both really do have a clue?

Take a deep breath, and think before you hit that "post" button.
To quote a famous movie line, "I do not think that means what you think it means".



I’m unfamiliar with the concept that two people cannot be wrong about something. If the semantics bothers you, you might be better served discussing that elsewhere.
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W8LV

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2019, 11:20:07 AM »

No, Don. I'll keep posting right here.

 It is merely your opinion that the ARRL and I are Clueless.
You haven't carried the day with your argument. However, you certainly are entitled to it.

Nevertheless, I sourced my statements, and Truth carries the day.

A nasty, colour enhanced reply doesn't reenforce your argument, nor detract from mine (and others) one iota.
That's just how it is.

I'm disappointed that as of yet, you haven't shared with us your specific antenna installation.
Nor commented on the "Boat as Mobile Repeater" concept.

73 and All the Best!
DE W8LV BILL







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K1VSK

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  • Posts: 1949
RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2019, 02:17:57 PM »



Nevertheless, I sourced my statements,...

I'm disappointed that as of yet, you haven't shared with us your specific antenna installation.
Nor commented on the "Boat as Mobile Repeater" concept.

73 and All the Best!
DE W8LV BILL

To be clear, your “source” is just an unfounded and baseless opinion but I do admire your stubbornness - it’s hard to defend an indefensible argument.






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W8LV

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2019, 03:57:26 PM »

"To be clear, your “source” is just an unfounded and baseless opinion but I do admire your stubbornness - it’s hard to defend an indefensible argument."

No Don. My Source is legitimate. It's you HOA Fanboy argument that's indefensible.
You lose. Again.

Still waiting to hear the Details about those fifty hams and your antenna set-up...

73 DE W8LV BILL

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K1VSK

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  • Posts: 1949
RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2019, 03:49:52 AM »



Still waiting to hear the Details about those fifty hams and your antenna set-up...

73 DE W8LV BILL


It’s closer to 70 according to a qrz  search of the community and what I use is an irrelevant distraction from your failure to provide any data on how many hams in HOAs cannot enjoy the hobby, how many care, etc...

Let’s focus on something important such as why very few HOA hams are complaining or how many HOAs have accommodated their antenna requests. Show us where you answered even one of those fundamental questions.

Absent that, the so-called need is just a hoax. Here’s a question you might be able to answer - Why do you perpetuate a hoax?
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N8AUC

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2019, 06:50:31 AM »

It’s clear neither you nor the League doesn’t have a clue. Save some semblance of credibility and admit it.

OK. Now this is getting funny.

So if neither Bill nor the ARRL "doesn't have a clue", does that mean they both really do have a clue?

Take a deep breath, and think before you hit that "post" button.
To quote a famous movie line, "I do not think that means what you think it means".



I’m unfamiliar with the concept that two people cannot be wrong about something. If the semantics bothers you, you might be better served discussing that elsewhere.

Good grief, it's not semantics, it's basic logic and literacy.
Certainly both people can be wrong. Just like both people can be right, and any combination thereof.
It's the double negative. If neither one of them "doesn't" have a clue, then they both do have a clue.
You basically conceded your entire argument to your opponent, and then continued pressing your point, which you just carelessly admitted was wrong.

You're obviously an intelligent person, so think about what you're typing before you hit the Post button.
Because what you said, is clearly NOT what you meant. You can't just flippantly blow that off as merely semantics if you want any credibility.
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N8AUC

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2019, 07:53:04 AM »

And for the record, K1VSK, I happen to agree with you on this issue.

At this point in time, I would not knowingly move into an HOA controlled area, and I don't live in one now.
But who knows, it could happen in the future, for reasons I can't envision today. Ham radio is incredibly
important to me and my happiness. But there is more to life than ham radio.

If I found myself in a situation where I was bound by HOA rules like that, here is what I would attempt to do:

1) Initially, do not do much at all. Maybe use some indoor antennas with reduced power for a while. Keep it low to preferably no impact on
    others. Get to know your neighbors, and make it a point to attend HOA board meetings. Establish yourself as an intelligent, reasonable
    person, a good neighbor, who works and plays well with others. Given how small our numbers are, it is very likely they have never met
    a ham before. So this becomes an incredibly golden opportunity to introduce people the right way to who and what we really are.
    People generally have some fear of things they are not familiar with. The key here is to gently give them that familiarity without invoking
    the fear response.
2) After a while, politely and respectfully attempt to get a variance that would allow me to have a modest, reasonable antenna outdoors.
    The key here is to be reasonable, and approach the situation with the right attitude. I've always found that people will treat you the
    way you treat them. There is usually a difference between what you need, and what you want. Although some folks believe a tower would be
    very important to have, all I really need is some simple wires for HF, and a VHF/UHF vertical.
3) If step 2 fails, then I would continue as in step 1 above, living within the restrictions I agreed to, and don't make a big stink about it. Keeping
    in mind that I have merely lost a battle, but I haven't yet lost the war.
4) After that, I would begin the process of getting myself onto the HOA board. Once you are inside, you can begin the process of changing the rules
    from within. Think of it as a big ship with a small rudder. It's a process that may take some time, but course changes are always possible, if
    you can get your hand on the rudder. Most people will push back strongly against large, sudden changes. But adopt an incremental approach
    of baby steps over time, and most people will not object.

Of course, as always, your mileage may vary. But that is how I would approach the situation. The key is handling people properly.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 08:18:01 AM by N8AUC »
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W8LV

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #55 on: September 10, 2019, 08:49:52 AM »


Still haven't heard from any of the "Happy HOA Ham" 50.... Yet here are many hams in previous posts who have problems with their respective HOAs.

Ohhh wait.... We're up to 70 now.? SEVENTY "Happy HOA Hams?"
Haven't seen a post from ONE here, other than K1VSK.

No details on K1VSK's HOA antenna set-up?
Why?

And K1VSK sites no sources.
None. Hmmmm....

73 DE W8LV BILL
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K7JQ

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2019, 12:34:51 PM »

And for the record, K1VSK, I happen to agree with you on this issue.

At this point in time, I would not knowingly move into an HOA controlled area, and I don't live in one now.
But who knows, it could happen in the future, for reasons I can't envision today. Ham radio is incredibly
important to me and my happiness. But there is more to life than ham radio.

If I found myself in a situation where I was bound by HOA rules like that, here is what I would attempt to do:

1) Initially, do not do much at all. Maybe use some indoor antennas with reduced power for a while. Keep it low to preferably no impact on
    others. Get to know your neighbors, and make it a point to attend HOA board meetings. Establish yourself as an intelligent, reasonable
    person, a good neighbor, who works and plays well with others. Given how small our numbers are, it is very likely they have never met
    a ham before. So this becomes an incredibly golden opportunity to introduce people the right way to who and what we really are.
    People generally have some fear of things they are not familiar with. The key here is to gently give them that familiarity without invoking
    the fear response.
2) After a while, politely and respectfully attempt to get a variance that would allow me to have a modest, reasonable antenna outdoors.
    The key here is to be reasonable, and approach the situation with the right attitude. I've always found that people will treat you the
    way you treat them. There is usually a difference between what you need, and what you want. Although some folks believe a tower would be
    very important to have, all I really need is some simple wires for HF, and a VHF/UHF vertical.
3) If step 2 fails, then I would continue as in step 1 above, living within the restrictions I agreed to, and don't make a big stink about it. Keeping
    in mind that I have merely lost a battle, but I haven't yet lost the war.
4) After that, I would begin the process of getting myself onto the HOA board. Once you are inside, you can begin the process of changing the rules
    from within. Think of it as a big ship with a small rudder. It's a process that may take some time, but course changes are always possible, if
    you can get your hand on the rudder. Most people will push back strongly against large, sudden changes. But adopt an incremental approach
    of baby steps over time, and most people will not object.

Of course, as always, your mileage may vary. But that is how I would approach the situation. The key is handling people properly.



Well thought out approach, but unfortunately a bit idealistic IMO. You did buffer it though, stating other's mileage might vary.

Just getting on the HOA board is a good step, but there still has to be a majority vote by the member homeowners to revise or add a provision to the CC&R's. That can be an arduous task. If the Architectural Committee approves your antenna without changing a CC&R that specifically prohibits all ham antennas (regardless of the A.C. approval), a homeowner/neighbor can fight that approval as a violation of said CC&R. Legality rules. Another scenario is even if the HOA is sympathetic to your antenna plan, they can turn you down because "If we approve your antenna, we'll have to approve all other similar requests". Getting chummy with your neighbors is OK, until they see that perceived eyesore sticking above your roof or backyard...not so chummy anymore. What you think is reasonable may not be reasonable to others.

A lot of obstacles when trying to get an HOA variance/permission for antennas. But as K1VSK points out, it's not impossible, and you might get lucky. If not, at least you would be prepared to go totally stealth without complaining, as you knew what you getting into. In my case, after getting rebuked for a multi-band vertical, I went with "It's sometimes better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission". Seventeen years now with attic dipoles and a ground-mounted screwdriver that no one can see. So far, so good, and still enjoying the hobby ;).

73,  Bob K7JQ
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KH6AQ

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2019, 01:06:48 PM »

In a well-patrolled HOA I managed to install a stealthy yet effective antenna for 160-10 meters. Even on 80 meters the radiation efficiency
was 50% and worldwide DX was had (on CW). 160 meter efficiency was a usable 10%. The initial non-stealthy antenna was spotted by the patrol within a day yet the stealthy antenna was not noticed in the two years it was up. 1200 watts was run without affecting the neighbors located 60' from the antenna.

By day the antenna appeared to be a mild mannered bird house atop a 5 foot post. By the dark of night a 24' whip would appear atop it and the Tarheel 200A-HP screwdriver antenna hidden inside the hollow plastic fence post tuned 40-160 meters. Shorter whips from 3' to 9' were used for 10-40 meters. During the day the 3' mobile whip went unnoticed and did a good job on 10-40 meters. To maximize radiation efficiency 90 radials covered the 25' x 60' backyard.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 01:16:45 PM by KH6AQ »
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N8AUC

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #58 on: September 10, 2019, 04:50:50 PM »

Well thought out approach, but unfortunately a bit idealistic IMO. You did buffer it though, stating other's mileage might vary.

Just getting on the HOA board is a good step, but there still has to be a majority vote by the member homeowners to revise or add a provision to the CC&R's. That can be an arduous task. If the Architectural Committee approves your antenna without changing a CC&R that specifically prohibits all ham antennas (regardless of the A.C. approval), a homeowner/neighbor can fight that approval as a violation of said CC&R. Legality rules. Another scenario is even if the HOA is sympathetic to your antenna plan, they can turn you down because "If we approve your antenna, we'll have to approve all other similar requests". Getting chummy with your neighbors is OK, until they see that perceived eyesore sticking above your roof or backyard...not so chummy anymore. What you think is reasonable may not be reasonable to others.

A lot of obstacles when trying to get an HOA variance/permission for antennas. But as K1VSK points out, it's not impossible, and you might get lucky. If not, at least you would be prepared to go totally stealth without complaining, as you knew what you getting into. In my case, after getting rebuked for a multi-band vertical, I went with "It's sometimes better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission". Seventeen years now with attic dipoles and a ground-mounted screwdriver that no one can see. So far, so good, and still enjoying the hobby ;).

73,  Bob K7JQ

Indeed, my approach might not be successful. But that's what I would attempt. And it might take quite some time to play out.
But I think K1VSK is right. It definitely isn't impossible.

I'm glad your situation is workable, Bob. And I really like the Hogan's Heroes approach that KH6AQ did.
Sounds a bit like the antenna that would emerge from the roof of the Commandant's residence, and then disappear again.
At least that's the mental image I get from his description.

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ND6M

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RE: Hams with CC&R's get left in the cold by ARRL!
« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2019, 07:02:19 AM »

... edit....

So if neither Bill nor the ARRL "doesn't have a clue", does that mean they both really do have a clue?...

Good grief, it's not semantics, it's basic logic and literacy.
Certainly both people can be wrong. Just like both people can be right, and any combination thereof.
It's the double negative. If neither one of them "doesn't" have a clue, then they both do have a clue...


Err, its obvious that grammar is not your strong point.

It's not a double negative at all.
 The word "neither" applies to "Bill" and the "arrl" only. not to the action "does not have a clue."
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