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Author Topic: Emcomm GEOstationary satellite.  (Read 1099 times)

KC9SGV

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Emcomm GEOstationary satellite.
« on: September 28, 2019, 09:53:43 PM »

Hi,
Here is the latest on this exciting interim solution to the GEOstationary satellite question.
Michelle, W5NYV of ORI, proposes this:
Read all about it on the GEO .IO email list.
See the block diagram of the system.
Please join the email list.
https://groups.io/g/GEO

KC9SGV
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K7AAT

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RE: Emcomm GEOstationary satellite.
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2019, 09:01:32 AM »

The biggest flaw I see in this plan is the lack of direct amateur radio station access to the satellite uplink.  Use of additional terrestrial relays ( ARAP ) add a limiting and weak point to emcomm use of the satellite....IMHO.

K7AAT
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 09:06:42 AM by K7AAT »
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ONAIR

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RE: Emcomm GEOstationary satellite.
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2019, 12:19:18 AM »

An orbital Web SDR has now been put into service in Europe, and there are plans to put more of these Web SDRs into orbit.  This could allow ground based transmissions to be heard worldwide over the internet, and it could prove to be extremely helpful in emergency situations.
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N8AUC

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RE: Emcomm GEOstationary satellite.
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2019, 08:08:09 PM »

These satellites sound great!

But I wouldn't rely on them for emcomm. Certainly it's a tool in the toolbox, but I wouldn't base an operations plan on using them.

Anyone who's serious will tell you that when planning for a disaster situation, you should never rely on infrastructure you don't control directly. Because when the need is the most critical, it might not be available or usable.
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K7AAT

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RE: Emcomm GEOstationary satellite.
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2019, 08:19:01 PM »

These satellites sound great!

But I wouldn't rely on them for emcomm. Certainly it's a tool in the toolbox, but I wouldn't base an operations plan on using them.

Anyone who's serious will tell you that when planning for a disaster situation, you should never rely on infrastructure you don't control directly. Because when the need is the most critical, it might not be available or usable.

Agree.  That is why our EMCOMM group bases our bottom line communications on HF voice and digital (WinLink) communications.....no infrastructure in or near disaster area required.

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N8AUC

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RE: Emcomm GEOstationary satellite.
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2019, 08:39:35 PM »

These satellites sound great!

But I wouldn't rely on them for emcomm. Certainly it's a tool in the toolbox, but I wouldn't base an operations plan on using them.

Anyone who's serious will tell you that when planning for a disaster situation, you should never rely on infrastructure you don't control directly. Because when the need is the most critical, it might not be available or usable.

Agree.  That is why our EMCOMM group bases our bottom line communications on HF voice and digital (WinLink) communications.....no infrastructure in or near disaster area required.



Indeed, if resiliency is needed (and it usually is), you don't want to plan around what could be a single point of failure.
A distributed network of HF stations, with trained operators, likely using NVIS (and no infrastructure), is far more fault tolerant.

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KC9SGV

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RE: Emcomm GEOstationary satellite.
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2019, 07:30:11 PM »

Gentlemen,
All good points.
But the capability of a GEO sat is basically to add another ham band to the amateur radio service.
This band is open 24/7/365....
Unlike the HF ham bands of late.
ARAPS (Amateur Radio Access Points) get dropped into the disaster area by parachute team or helicopter.
Now all line of sight ham VHF, UHF, Police, Marine band, CB, FRS traffic get aggregated (collected) by the ARAPS, then transmitted to the satellite via uplink.
The downlink goes into a ops center hundreds of miles way.
Reverse traffic is also available.

Read more at
https://groups.io/g/GEO



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K7AAT

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RE: Emcomm GEOstationary satellite.
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2019, 07:41:32 PM »

Adding another ham band for EMCOMM is dandy, but in my opinion still a poor choice for EMCOMM when individual ham stations within the area of a disaster must depend on an unlikely timely delivery of ARAPS to them, not to mention trained operators....    I Still view HF, or VHF when usable, to be the most reliable and infrastructure free options.

K7AAT
 
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K6BRN

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RE: Emcomm GEOstationary satellite.
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2019, 07:47:50 PM »

Look up "Thuraya".  Digital channelizer based with digital beamforming.  Voice, data, whatever.  Geosynchronous.  When the ground infrastructure is out, Thuraya is still there.  Voice and data, even to a hand held cellphone.  In service since 1998.  You've watched some interesting world events unfold via this system, and never knew it.

Now why not in the USA?  Look up the history of "Wild Blue".

Brian - K6BRN
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KC9SGV

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RE: Emcomm GEOstationary satellite.
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2019, 06:07:41 AM »

Indeed, Thuraya is the answer.
Turns every cell phone into a satphone by clicking the cellphone into this thicker satphone sleeve.
But commercial, and you have to pay for it.
Only available in Asia....

With ARAPS, it might be possible to also aggregate and uplink the cell phone data streams in a clunkier way.
The challenge wil be not to saturate the aggregator with cell phone traffic.
But, a good interim solution, until we have our own ham band GEO sat(s).

Of course, maybe the cell phone companies have something similar that can be dropped in to the affected area to re-establish cell service, but we are talking ham radio here.
A backup to the commercial and military services, to alleviate traffic pressure problems.
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KC9SGV

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RE: Emcomm GEOstationary satellite.
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2019, 08:10:30 AM »

See the Echostar 9 (Galaxy 23) Ku band footprint as painted by SatBeams (On the App Store.)

https://groups.io/g/GEO/topic/echostar_9_viewed_by/34427797?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,0,34427797

KC9SGV
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K6BRN

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RE: Emcomm GEOstationary satellite.
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2019, 07:14:14 AM »

Quote
Turns every cell phone into a satphone by clicking the cellphone into this thicker satphone sleeve

Actually, the one I have is just a dual-mode phone.
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KB8VUL

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Re: Emcomm GEOstationary satellite.
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2019, 08:54:21 AM »

OK, wait a minute. 
You are telling me that we as hams are going to put a GEO-stationary satellite in orbit, and have some entity with cargo planes drop communications uplink gear into a disaster zone for access to the bird? To people that are trained and competent to pull it out of the shipping containers, set it up and align it, and then use this gear during a disaster.  Then obviously, after debrief, crate the whole thing up and get it shipped back to where ever.

The easiest part of this whole thig is getting the bird built and into space. 
Getting it dropped, by any one is going to be a real task.
Securing the gear that came down from the sky will be damn near impossible.
People will lay claim to it that are armed.  And I don't care if you label it as dog crap and smear some on the outside for good measure, if it's a disaster situation, and it's getting dropped from a plane, it don't take a rocket scientist to realize it's valuable. 
And to that end, turning loose satellite uplink gear  to the general public, out the back of an airplane, is gonna be a non-starter for ANYONE with a bird in the air that you could interfere with via said equipment.

Then we have the trained and competent individuals that will setup the gear after they wrestle it away from the armed masses that are fighting over the box labeled as dog poop.  How is it that we are gonna get these folks trained?  Are they going to go take a 'special' ham test that all the questions and answers are in a new book from Gorden West via a FOIA request like he does with all his other study guides so we have another subset of hams that don't know crap about electronics, electricity, or WHY THEIR HOME BREW PTT FOOTSWITCH IS ALWAYS KEYED UP BECAUSE THEY CONNECTED ONE WIRE TO ONE SIDE OF A METAL HINGE AND THE OTHER WIRE TO THE OTHER PLATE OF THE SAME METAL HINGE WITH NO INSULATOR AT THE HINGE?!?!?!?!  Yes, this was a topic of discussion of a ham on the local repeater a few years back.  And a real solid reason that ham operators have left the vhf repeaters in droves. 

I am sorry but this is full of "just what the hell were you thinking" situations before the first circuit board is created.

If you are gonna do it, work out the problems first. 
Get the ARES regional coordinators to designate a number of hams to be trained and to receive the gear.
Get them trained with backup personnel so that we have regional access points for the system.
figure out what sort of situations that the gear will be used and what sort of communications protocols will be employed, 
Figure out HOW the regional uplink points will communicate with the 'boots on the ground' in areas away fro the regional access point.

Then you are getting somewhere. 
having satellites is cool.  having a Geo-stationary bird is WAY cool. 
not having a good plan to use it, then you have the same problem we have now with most Emergency communications setups.
 
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N1ZZZ

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Re: Emcomm GEOstationary satellite.
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2019, 07:38:10 AM »

I'm all about amateur systems, but unless the locals have the equipment on-hand and are trained on it, it's a non-starter.  Look at the winlink problems in PR a few years ago with the band of 50.  They had Dragons issued to them, but because they couldn't figure out how to use them, they tried to use Winmor and it didn't work.  Same problem would happen here.

If you need satcomms, drop INMARSAT BGAN units issued and have the COMT's set them up for full broadband access akin to what aircraft and ships use at sea.  Iridium phones are another option for voice and slow-speed data.

Even this is unlikely, because mobile cell sites are now the norm and they link the disaster area to unaffected infrastructure and people can start using their cellphones as normal.

I love the idea, but don't try to sell it as ecomm.  Use the international good will and advancing the radio art angles instead.

73
Jeremy
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ONAIR

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Re: Emcomm GEOstationary satellite.
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2019, 12:25:48 AM »

OK, wait a minute. 
You are telling me that we as hams are going to put a GEO-stationary satellite in orbit, and have some entity with cargo planes drop communications uplink gear into a disaster zone for access to the bird? To people that are trained and competent to pull it out of the shipping containers, set it up and align it, and then use this gear during a disaster.  Then obviously, after debrief, crate the whole thing up and get it shipped back to where ever.

The easiest part of this whole thig is getting the bird built and into space. 
Getting it dropped, by any one is going to be a real task.
Securing the gear that came down from the sky will be damn near impossible.
People will lay claim to it that are armed.  And I don't care if you label it as dog crap and smear some on the outside for good measure, if it's a disaster situation, and it's getting dropped from a plane, it don't take a rocket scientist to realize it's valuable. 
And to that end, turning loose satellite uplink gear  to the general public, out the back of an airplane, is gonna be a non-starter for ANYONE with a bird in the air that you could interfere with via said equipment.

Then we have the trained and competent individuals that will setup the gear after they wrestle it away from the armed masses that are fighting over the box labeled as dog poop.  How is it that we are gonna get these folks trained?  Are they going to go take a 'special' ham test that all the questions and answers are in a new book from Gorden West via a FOIA request like he does with all his other study guides so we have another subset of hams that don't know crap about electronics, electricity, or WHY THEIR HOME BREW PTT FOOTSWITCH IS ALWAYS KEYED UP BECAUSE THEY CONNECTED ONE WIRE TO ONE SIDE OF A METAL HINGE AND THE OTHER WIRE TO THE OTHER PLATE OF THE SAME METAL HINGE WITH NO INSULATOR AT THE HINGE?!?!?!?!  Yes, this was a topic of discussion of a ham on the local repeater a few years back.  And a real solid reason that ham operators have left the vhf repeaters in droves. 

I am sorry but this is full of "just what the hell were you thinking" situations before the first circuit board is created.

If you are gonna do it, work out the problems first. 
Get the ARES regional coordinators to designate a number of hams to be trained and to receive the gear.
Get them trained with backup personnel so that we have regional access points for the system.
figure out what sort of situations that the gear will be used and what sort of communications protocols will be employed, 
Figure out HOW the regional uplink points will communicate with the 'boots on the ground' in areas away fro the regional access point.

Then you are getting somewhere. 
having satellites is cool.  having a Geo-stationary bird is WAY cool. 
not having a good plan to use it, then you have the same problem we have now with most Emergency communications setups.
  What about all the talk of just putting a WebSDR into orbit, with a downlink to the internet?
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