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Author Topic: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!  (Read 3096 times)

KV1P

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2019, 11:19:39 AM »

As one who lives in a DEED RESTRICTED develpment I welcome this new move by the ARRL; thanks to our ex senator Bill Nelson who killed the bill by the ARRL last year!  WE can now enjoy our hobby without the Lawn Nazis looking in our backyards.
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W9FIB

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2019, 01:32:52 PM »

...edit...

That is the problem. You offer nothing new other than added anger. Makes anyone up on Capitol Hill cringe to support anything. Makes a lot on EHam also uncomfortable. And drives away support, not add to it.
Perhaps YOU are the actual problem. You assume that the majority of all Amateurs support this issue.

Even the arrl's own survey of members (20% of all Amateurs) disclosed that only 10% responded that HOA's/CC & R's were a priority to them.

Lets see,.... what is 10% of 20%.......... in other words, only 2% of all Amateurs ....................talk about a political minority.

Actually I support GOOD legislation. Don't assume things that are not there.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

K7JQ

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2019, 03:13:43 PM »


The only evidence is limited to one unscientific poll done by the League in QST summarized in the October 2019 edition in which only 10% of respondents indicated they have community restrictions against ANY antenna.

Interestingly, 83% indicated they don't need, want or can't afford a tower.


So where is the evidence anyone is "resigned" to antenna limitations? Why aren't all these HOA resident hams clamoring for relief? Why is it we hear only from the same few characters who don't even live in an HOA?

Correct...an "unscientific poll". A very small percentage of hams belong to ARRL, read QST, nor participate in polls and ham radio social media. IMO, you can throw that assumption out. With the rampant proliferation of HOA/CC&R communities with antenna restrictions in the last 35 years, one can assume (I know...an "ASS out of U and Me) that the "problem" is more widespread among HR home dwellers than the polls indicate. You can always argue my point due to lack of hard evidence, but I can argue to the contrary of yours.

We're not talking about "towers" in this legislation. Although for some, a "reasonable accommodation" might imply a tower ;)...I'll give you that. Give 'em a finger, they'll want the whole hand.

The few characters we hear from are totally anti-HOA/CC&R people anyway. They would never consider living in one, and think that anyone that buys into one are insane. They're entitled to their opinion, but for me, other than antenna restrictions, I have no problem with the other provisions. To each his/her own.

Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2019, 04:18:53 PM »



Correct...an "unscientific poll". A very small percentage of hams belong to ARRL, read QST, nor participate in polls and ham radio social media. IMO, you can throw that assumption out. With the rampant proliferation of HOA/CC&R communities with antenna restrictions in the last 35 years, one can assume (I know...an "ASS out of U and Me) that the "problem" is more widespread...




We agree neither of us and more important the League has no statistically valid data on which to base any judgment what or if a problem exists. That was my main point. That the only data which does exist doesn't depict any problem is not a reason to completely dismiss it as you just did.


The League has chosen by act of commission to not define the magnitude of the perceived problem, not quantify the extent of it and not add any clarity to the issue but rather apparently will again attempt to convince Congressmen a solution to the perception is legislatively necessary to fix it. It's all about assumptions and I question the wisdom of writing legislation based on an assumption.

As to the sanity of those who hate HOAs and the people who chose to live therein, we have ample evidence of that dysfunctional behavior to dismiss their rants.

There are a myriad of ways the League could collect data, the easiest and cheapest being to simply solicit opinions on their forum. That they haven't implies they don't either 1. care or 2. want the data. The ARRL has thus far ignored all attempts to discuss the issue.

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K7JQ

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2019, 09:09:11 AM »

If anyone thinks that HOA/CC&R antenna restrictions are not a widespread problem, go to remotehamradio.com. The owners' (Hudson Valley Towers) huge investment in many remote locations coast to coast and Haiti, after extensive research, was predicated on the plight of HOA/CC&R antenna restricted customers, and their favorable response to remote operating.

73,  Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2019, 01:23:14 PM »

If anyone thinks that HOA/CC&R antenna restrictions are not a widespread problem, go to remotehamradio.com. The owners' (Hudson Valley Towers) huge investment in many remote locations coast to coast and Haiti, after extensive research, was predicated on the plight of HOA/CC&R antenna restricted customers, and their favorable response to remote operating.

73,  Bob K7JQ
I would be interested in reading the “extensive research” but didn’t find any link on their web site.

Interestingly, I did find their list of target audience, only one of which relates to HOAs:
“Operate from a HOA restricted area.
Operate from an apartment building.
Experience “running” DX from multiple locations.
Extend your DXing/Contesting Toolbox.
Open and close the bands.
Operate low bands with real antennas with practically no QRN.
Experience operating from some of the largest contest stations in the U.S and Europe.
Operate from mountaintops with big stacks.
Listen and test your station using a remote transceiver.
Operate stacks, 80m and 160m 4 squares,
Avoid expenses of a tower installation and maintaining a station.
Bring your your shack with you when you travel.
Operate stations in more than one location.
Forget about hassles and headaches!
Keep the XYL happy!”

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K7JQ

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2019, 02:26:45 PM »

If anyone thinks that HOA/CC&R antenna restrictions are not a widespread problem, go to remotehamradio.com. The owners' (Hudson Valley Towers) huge investment in many remote locations coast to coast and Haiti, after extensive research, was predicated on the plight of HOA/CC&R antenna restricted customers, and their favorable response to remote operating.

73,  Bob K7JQ
I would be interested in reading the “extensive research” but didn’t find any link on their web site.

Interestingly, I did find their list of target audience, only one of which relates to HOAs:
“Operate from a HOA restricted area.
Operate from an apartment building.
Experience “running” DX from multiple locations.
Extend your DXing/Contesting Toolbox.
Open and close the bands.
Operate low bands with real antennas with practically no QRN.
Experience operating from some of the largest contest stations in the U.S and Europe.
Operate from mountaintops with big stacks.
Listen and test your station using a remote transceiver.
Operate stacks, 80m and 160m 4 squares,
Avoid expenses of a tower installation and maintaining a station.
Bring your your shack with you when you travel.
Operate stations in more than one location.
Forget about hassles and headaches!
Keep the XYL happy!”

But notice the first bullet point. The rest are all valid selling points, but if one has his own station with (moderately) effective outdoor antennas, why spend up to $.99/minute to use these remote stations? They had to have evidence of sustainable income from repeat customers, other than someone using it on a one-time lark to experience a superstation's capabilities.

Now, go to W9RE.COM (the principle owners' website), click on "Remote (RHR)", and read what the impetus was to start up this business model....HOA/ CC&R antenna restricted communities. The actual research wasn't posted, but they had qualified, competent people do it.

If you won't believe that there's a pervasive antenna restriction problem unless you see hard evidence, then maybe you should do the research yourself. Then convince me when you get findings to the contrary ;). I'm relying on what I read, and my own experience with what's going on in the hotbed Phoenix, AZ area housing market...antenna restrictions everywhere in communities built within the last 35 years. Or maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. No big whoop...it's only a hobby :).

73,  Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2019, 03:50:11 PM »

i thought you said there was”extensive research”. I doubt most people would consider advertising bullet points (one) as such. With emphasis on ‘one’.

Not that you will believe it’s valid but I did try to determine how pervasive it is among hams on QRZ.COM by asking for responses to a set number of questions and received about 100 responses, the overwhelming majority of which from HOA residents. They consistently stated they are happy where they are, they don’t care about changing their rules and they don’t need any help dealing with antennas limitations. And among those who do want changes, they stated they would move if it was important to them.

That’s why we don’t see an abundance of HOA residents here complaining. That lack of complaints IS evidence of the most compelling kind.

I did share the above with a number of legislators indicating there is a lack of evidence supporting any need for statutory change and they all articulated their skepticism over any need.

It’s not me you want to convince but rather them.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 04:14:50 PM by K1VSK »
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K7JQ

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2019, 06:47:15 PM »

i thought you said there was”extensive research”. I doubt most people would consider advertising bullet points (one) as such. With emphasis on ‘one’.

Not that you will believe it’s valid but I did try to determine how pervasive it is among hams on QRZ.COM by asking for responses to a set number of questions and received about 100 responses, the overwhelming majority of which from HOA residents. They consistently stated they are happy where they are, they don’t care about changing their rules and they don’t need any help dealing with antennas limitations. And among those who do want changes, they stated they would move if it was important to them.

That’s why we don’t see an abundance of HOA residents here complaining. That lack of complaints IS evidence of the most compelling kind.

I did share the above with a number of legislators indicating there is a lack of evidence supporting any need for statutory change and they all articulated their skepticism over any need.

It’s not me you want to convince but rather them.

Well, you have your opinion, and I have mine. This will get us nowhere...we agree to disagree. On to better things, my friend. Happy and safe Thanksgiving to you and your family!

73,  Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2019, 05:49:01 AM »

. On to better things, my friend. Happy and safe Thanksgiving to you and your family!

73,  Bob K7JQ
Same to you and everyone else here
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KB3ONA

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2019, 08:26:21 AM »

I totally agree with K7JQ. I don't have any scientific evidence, just anecdotal and circumstantial. We moved to the Phoenix area 12 years ago and every amateur radio operator I've encountered here has complained about the restrictions in the newer developments, and the newer developments make up most of the housing in the valley. I don't know the exact percentage but just take a look around if you live here, or look on any current aerial photo/Google Maps if you don't and you can easily see it. Of course hams have to balance their living needs with their hobbies so they bought where they did for various reasons, but that doesn't mean they're not interested in getting relief from the extensive antenna restrictions they're currently living under. Also you gotta ask yourself, how many kids living in the area that may be interested in amateur radio never even get a chance to experience it because their parents tell them they're not allowed to operate where they live. The hams I know living in unrestricted housing enjoy the hobby to the extent their property sizes allow, and the hams living in restricted housing fly under the radar but would prefer to have reasonable antenna's in the clear where they can. In my case we started out here living in a restricted community but moved to a much better location as soon as we could afford to do so. It took a lot of hard work over the years to find a place that was reasonably priced but we finally did it. So in my opinion, based on what I've seen and experienced personally, I believe there is a great need for relief for hams in restricted communities. Relief from antenna restrictions may not take priority over being close to schools, health care, etc. for some hams but that doesn't mean they don't care about getting relief.

As a general rule I'm in favor of limited federal government but there are exceptions, and I view antenna relief legislation the same as the laws that went into effect to allow OTARD/satellite dishes. I read many posts on this forum where where people argued that you shouldn't buy in a deed restricted community if you wanted to operate. But you could make that same argument against people that wanted to have satellite TV or a VHF/UHF antenna on their roof prior to the OTARD legislation. Why didn't they move to a farm outside of town somewhere if they wanted their OTARD antenna or satellite TV dish? Of course because they had to weigh priorities and TV wasn't at the top in most cases, unless they were like me and have to watch Gunsmoke reruns every day. But that doesn't mean they weren't interested in relief just because they weren't organizing protests, etc. Of course if a guy (or gal) paid umpteen thousands of dollars for a house and are raising their family in it they're not going to admit they made a mistake in most cases, or want to move over a single issue that's not their top priority whether they thought so or not, that's just human nature. For me it's just common sense that hams would be interested in relief. I'm pretty sure if you asked them they would be interested in relief, even if they're not willing to go through the extensive hassles and expense of moving out of their current restricted communities. Can you imagine a ham saying, "...no, I like the antenna restrictions the way they are now." I doubt you'll see any polls with high percentages of hams saying that. I don't need to see scientific evidence that hams would like to see antenna relief legislation because it's just common sense.         
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 08:29:05 AM by KB3ONA »
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K1VSK

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2019, 08:45:09 AM »

I totally agree with K7JQ. I don't have any scientific evidence, just anecdotal and circumstantial. We moved to the Phoenix area 12 years ago and every amateur radio operator I've encountered here has complained about the restrictions in the newer developments, and the newer developments make up most of the housing in the valley. I don't know the exact percentage but just take a look around if you live here, or look on any current aerial photo/Google Maps if you don't and you can easily see it. Of course hams have to balance their living needs with their hobbies so they bought where they did for various reasons, but that doesn't mean they're not interested in getting relief from the extensive antenna restrictions they're currently living under. Also you gotta ask yourself, how many kids living in the area that may be interested in amateur radio never even get a chance to experience it because their parents tell them they're not allowed to operate where they live. The hams I know living in unrestricted housing enjoy the hobby to the extent their property sizes allow, and the hams living in restricted housing fly under the radar but would prefer to have reasonable antenna's in the clear where they can. In my case we started out here living in a restricted community but moved to a much better location as soon as we could afford to do so. It took a lot of hard work over the years to find a place that was reasonably priced but we finally did it. So in my opinion, based on what I've seen and experienced personally, I believe there is a great need for relief for hams in restricted communities. Relief from antenna restrictions may not take priority over being close to schools, health care, etc. for some hams but that doesn't mean they don't care about getting relief.

As a general rule I'm in favor of limited federal government but there are exceptions, and I view antenna relief legislation the same as the laws that went into effect to allow OTARD/satellite dishes. I read many posts on this forum where where people argued that you shouldn't buy in a deed restricted community if you wanted to operate. But you could make that same argument against people that wanted to have satellite TV or a VHF/UHF antenna on their roof prior to the OTARD legislation. Why didn't they move to a farm outside of town somewhere if they wanted their OTARD antenna or satellite TV dish? Of course because they had to weigh priorities and TV wasn't at the top in most cases, unless they were like me and have to watch Gunsmoke reruns every day. But that doesn't mean they weren't interested in relief just because they weren't organizing protests, etc. Of course if a guy (or gal) paid umpteen thousands of dollars for a house and are raising their family in it they're not going to admit they made a mistake in most cases, or want to move over a single issue that's not their top priority whether they thought so or not, that's just human nature. For me it's just common sense that hams would be interested in relief. I'm pretty sure if you asked them they would be interested in relief, even if they're not willing to go through the extensive hassles and expense of moving out of their current restricted communities. Can you imagine a ham saying, "...no, I like the antenna restrictions the way they are now." I doubt you'll see any polls with high percentages of hams saying that. I don't need to see scientific evidence that hams would like to see antenna relief legislation because it's just common sense.         

Perceptions don’t usually make a good reason to promulgate regulations or write new statutes.

And common sense dictates we would see massive outcries for relief here and the other forums where whining has become an art form.
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KB3ONA

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2019, 09:28:30 AM »

Were there massive outcries from people that wanted to install OTARD VHF-UHF antenna's? I don't know the answer - just asking. 
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K7JQ

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2019, 10:19:51 AM »

Were there massive outcries from people that wanted to install OTARD VHF-UHF antenna's? I don't know the answer - just asking.

There didn't have to be outcries in that situation. You can bet on massive pressure (and money in congressional pockets) from the networks, media companies, major advertisers, DirecTV and Dish Network on the legislators. Limited cable TV coverage wasn't enough.  Big business, money talks...they tell the government what to do. So goes the argument that the government (FCC) won't get involved with private land use contracts. Of course, they mask that with "TV availability is in the general public's national interest for emergencies, etc". Ham radio has no money to do the same, and therefore no clout.
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KB3ONA

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2019, 11:02:22 AM »

You're 110% exactly right. IMO the only difference between their interest and ours is they have the big bucks/influence and we don't, but their argument isn't any more valid than ours. That's why I'm glad to see the ARRL pursuing relief. They're a special interest/advocacy group for us and they should pursue things that are in our interest, even if not 100% of the membership benefits from it, or even a majority in some cases. I doubt there's any one issue that affects 100% of the membership; there'll always be some that are indifferent or against it but that doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile action item to pursue. If HOA's and restrictive boilerplate CC&R's are the future, and it certainly looks to me like they are since many areas of the country require developers to set up HOA's and CC&R's that cover maintenance, etc. so the town, county, or whatever doesn't incur new costs but gets additional tax revenue, then in time no one will be allowed to operate from their own properties. How anyone could think it's not worthwhile for the ARRL to pursue relief is beyond me. They're smart in looking forward - more restricted communities means less kids being introduced to the hobby and that's bad for all of us. And for the guys fortunate enough like me to be able to live on a property that's not restricted, well geeze, we won't have anyone to talk to down the road. So I'm all in support of the ARRL pursuing relief, even if I may not benefit directly from it.

Same goes for other things they pursue like protecting our slice of the spectrum, etc. I'm mostly an HF guy that hangs out on 20-30-40 but I'm all in favor of them using resources to protect and expand the spectrum for amateur use, even parts of the spectrum that I don't use.

Anyway, in summary, I'm in total agreement with you K7JQ.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 11:06:48 AM by KB3ONA »
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