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Author Topic: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!  (Read 3097 times)

K1VSK

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2019, 11:55:44 AM »

You're 110% exactly right. IMO the only difference between their interest and ours is they have the big bucks/influence and we don't, but their argument isn't any more valid than ours. That's why I'm glad to see the ARRL pursuing relief. They're a special interest/advocacy group for us and they should pursue things that are in our interest, even if not 100% of the membership benefits from it, or even a majority in some cases. I doubt there's any one issue that affects 100% of the membership; there'll always be some that are indifferent or against it but that doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile action item to pursue. If HOA's and restrictive boilerplate CC&R's are the future, and it certainly looks to me like they are since many areas of the country require developers to set up HOA's and CC&R's that cover maintenance, etc. so the town, county, or whatever doesn't incur new costs but gets additional tax revenue, then in time no one will be allowed to operate from their own properties. How anyone could think it's not worthwhile for the ARRL to pursue relief is beyond me. They're smart in looking forward - more restricted communities means less kids being introduced to the hobby and that's bad for all of us. And for the guys fortunate enough like me to be able to live on a property that's not restricted, well geeze, we won't have anyone to talk to down the road. So I'm all in support of the ARRL pursuing relief, even if I may not benefit directly from it.

Same goes for other things they pursue like protecting our slice of the spectrum, etc. I'm mostly an HF guy that hangs out on 20-30-40 but I'm all in favor of them using resources to protect and expand the spectrum for amateur use, even parts of the spectrum that I don't use.

Anyway, in summary, I'm in total agreement with you K7JQ.


Let’s be realistic here - hams whine on these forums about everything from the ARRL to the sun rising every morning. As you think this is an important issue, clearly very few others feel similarly anguished by it.
JQ implied he was unaware of any outcries. Is that the perspective with which you agree - unaware?

Regardless, there were issues far beyond the financial aspect which prompted OTARD legislation making it a somewhat frivolous analogy.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 11:58:42 AM by K1VSK »
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KB3ONA

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2019, 12:12:49 PM »

I agree with his statement that it wouldn't have mattered whether there was outcry or not because  I also believe it was mostly about the money. I don't think outcry from a large number of hams should be a precondition in order to propose legislation for relief for those hams that are restricted. I say this because you stated earlier that there's little vocal opposition.

The fact that were talking on a forum titled "Antenna Restrictions" on a popular ham radio website must mean there's some interest don't ya think? I don't see it as frivolous at all.

Like JQ said, we're not going to agree on this and that's ok. That's what forums are for - to discuss issues like this and others. I appreciate hearing your opinion so I know what others are thinking.
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WB2KSP

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2019, 12:19:40 PM »

"But notice the first bullet point. The rest are all valid selling points, but if one has his own station with (moderately) effective outdoor antennas, why spend up to $.99/minute to use these remote stations? They had to have evidence of sustainable income from repeat customers, other than someone using it on a one-time lark to experience a superstation's capabilities.

Now, go to W9RE.COM (the principle owners' website), click on "Remote (RHR)", and read what the impetus was to start up this business model....HOA/ CC&R antenna restricted communities. The actual research wasn't posted, but they had qualified, competent people do it.

If you won't believe that there's a pervasive antenna restriction problem unless you see hard evidence, then maybe you should do the research yourself. Then convince me when you get findings to the contrary ;). I'm relying on what I read, and my own experience with what's going on in the hotbed Phoenix, AZ area housing market...antenna restrictions everywhere in communities built within the last 35 years. Or maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. No big whoop...it's only a hobby :).

73,  Bob K7JQ"




Hi Bob, Good information and I thank you for this. Now, may I suggest that attempting to debate with some participants in here (who appear to hang out here to take a contrary position, no matter what that might be) is really sadly a waste of time because no matter what valid info you'll present they will continue to take the opposite position. It's sad actually that some people "get off" on such things but we too are at fault for continuing to "feed" them in an endless waste of time debate. I enjoy reading what others have to say but when you see the same people feeding their anti position any time someone brings up a point you kind of get the message. You of course are free to do as you see fit but if you are trying to get some people to change their mind or accept your argument take it from me. You are wasting your time. Happy Thanksgiving.
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K1VSK

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2019, 01:17:01 PM »



The fact that were talking on a forum titled "Antenna Restrictions" on a popular ham radio website must mean there's some interest don't ya think? I don't see it as frivolous at all.



All I can say about that is to note the comments are predominantly from people who don’t live in HOAs. That should tell us something (everything).

Happy Thanksgiving wherever you live.
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W1MOW

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2019, 01:39:36 PM »

I grew up in a small town in north central Connecticut. Since 1990 there has not been a housing development built that did not have an HOA/CCA. That is over 500 houses.

There is a Connecticut State Trooper who bought into a restricted development. The "House Nazi's" fined him because some nights when he came home late he would leave his roof rack with lights on top of his cruiser. This they felt was a violation of the rules. Another example is a member of the local EMS group, would occasionally bring home overnight a "Paramedic Response Vehicle". He came out late one night, on his way to a call, to find a wrecker hooking up to the vehicle, and the "House Nazi" standing there watching. 

When we were looking to move north into Vermont/New Hampshire we found that a lot of places that you would not think had restrictions. We made an offer on a lake house, during discussions we found out that the "Lake Association" had a multitude of restrictions, including one on "transmitting antennas". 

Yes you can try to buy in a non- restricted project, but you will find that anything under 30 years old will have some sort of restrictions. A lot of times this is a way for a developer to have income on a project after it has been finished, as a property manager.

Until you have lived in a restricted community, you have no idea of what it's like. You also have to remember extremely few developments are being built without some sort of HOA/CCA.
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The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt - Bertram Russell (1935)

So not much has changed in almost 90 years!

K7JQ

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2019, 03:09:32 PM »

"But notice the first bullet point. The rest are all valid selling points, but if one has his own station with (moderately) effective outdoor antennas, why spend up to $.99/minute to use these remote stations? They had to have evidence of sustainable income from repeat customers, other than someone using it on a one-time lark to experience a superstation's capabilities.

Now, go to W9RE.COM (the principle owners' website), click on "Remote (RHR)", and read what the impetus was to start up this business model....HOA/ CC&R antenna restricted communities. The actual research wasn't posted, but they had qualified, competent people do it.

If you won't believe that there's a pervasive antenna restriction problem unless you see hard evidence, then maybe you should do the research yourself. Then convince me when you get findings to the contrary ;). I'm relying on what I read, and my own experience with what's going on in the hotbed Phoenix, AZ area housing market...antenna restrictions everywhere in communities built within the last 35 years. Or maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. No big whoop...it's only a hobby :).

73,  Bob K7JQ"




Hi Bob, Good information and I thank you for this. Now, may I suggest that attempting to debate with some participants in here (who appear to hang out here to take a contrary position, no matter what that might be) is really sadly a waste of time because no matter what valid info you'll present they will continue to take the opposite position. It's sad actually that some people "get off" on such things but we too are at fault for continuing to "feed" them in an endless waste of time debate. I enjoy reading what others have to say but when you see the same people feeding their anti position any time someone brings up a point you kind of get the message. You of course are free to do as you see fit but if you are trying to get some people to change their mind or accept your argument take it from me. You are wasting your time. Happy Thanksgiving.

Thanks, David. You're right...some people take the opposite opinion/belief of a subject, no matter what it is just to be contrary. But perhaps VSK actually believes what he states...who am I to judge, as he's entitled to his belief and I respect that. Notice no personal attacks on our back-and-forth comments, like some disgusting ones we've all seen. I just can't accept that someone won't acknowledge an obvious and pervasive (to me) problem that could eventually threaten the future existence of ham radio. We just wound up agreeing to disagree, without further banter.  But maybe my mention of "Remote Ham Radio" will help some people see an alternative to their frustrations.

KB3ONA made a good point. As us old farts eventually die off, antenna restrictions are stifling the growth of young kids getting into the hobby because they can't operate from their parent's HOA/CC&R home, like we could when we started back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. Just look at the pictures in QST and CQ magazines, and on the internet sites...graying old pot-bellied men ;D. Where's the young blood? I hope it's not totally due to social media and video games taking up all of their time :-\.

I've been living in antenna restricted communities for over 27 years and operate "sufficiently" with stealth antennas. But currently I do have an unusual advantage with the location of my property to have an outdoor antenna that no one can see, despite initially being turned down years ago by the HOA after requesting permission for a vertical. But most don't have an advantage like this, and can only get by with noisy, RFI-prone attic antennas, if that's even possible.

I don't know the answer, as all prior attempted legislation over the years has been shot down. I know you've been looking for a retirement home. Anything in the works?

Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours also,

Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2019, 06:45:55 PM »






Hi Bob, Good information and I thank you for this. Now, may I suggest that attempting to debate with some participants in here (who appear to hang out here to take a contrary position, no matter what that might be) is really sadly a waste of time because no matter what valid info you'll present they will continue to take the opposite position. It's sad actually that some people "get off" on such things but we too are at fault for continuing to "feed" them in an endless waste of time debate. I enjoy reading what others have to say but when you see the same people feeding their anti position any time someone brings up a point you kind of get the message. You of course are free to do as you see fit but if you are trying to get some people to change their mind or accept your argument take it from me. You are wasting your time. Happy Thanksgiving.

Personal attacks such as this are the sign of a weak argument and serve to reflect poorly only on the author.

We were discussing if/how pervasive this issue is as a basis for demonstrating need for legislative or regulatory relief. If you’d like to debate the issue, that fine. If you simply want to voice a judgmental attitude about someone with whom you don’t know other than you disagree, that isn’t.

Bottom line to all this nonsense - if you can’t convince me, you certainly can’t convince a bunch of Congressman, most of whom never heard of ham radio.
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K7JQ

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2019, 04:35:43 AM »


Bottom line to all this nonsense - if you can’t convince me, you certainly can’t convince a bunch of Congressman, most of whom never heard of ham radio.

Now there's a point we can agree on. Notwithstanding our disagreement on whether or not there's a pervasive problem with HOA/CC&R antenna restrictions, convincing congress to pass legislation IS the bottom line. But unless a congressman is younger than 35, the rest of them should have at least heard of or been exposed to ham radio in some fashion. I'm guessing that the great majority are over 35.

Now the convincing part. It's not whether there's a pervasive problem...it's push-back from the Community Association Institute, a world-wide organization of HOA's. That has been ARRL's main opposition. And (IMO) as is always the case, the one with more influence, clout, and money comes out on top. The CAI is more well connected than ham radio's ARRL. Government will always pander to the larger special interest groups, because all they're interested in is what's in it for them. In any case, a tough road ahead to get HOA/CC&R antenna relief legislation passed.

73,  Bob K7JQ   
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K1VSK

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2019, 07:09:02 AM »


Bottom line to all this nonsense - if you can’t convince me, you certainly can’t convince a bunch of Congressman, most of whom never heard of ham radio.

Now there's a point we can agree on. Notwithstanding our disagreement on whether or not there's a pervasive problem with HOA/CC&R antenna restrictions, convincing congress to pass legislation IS the bottom line. But unless a congressman is younger than 35, the rest of them should have at least heard of or been exposed to ham radio in some fashion. I'm guessing that the great majority are over 35.

Now the convincing part. It's not whether there's a pervasive problem...it's push-back from the Community Association Institute, a world-wide organization of HOA's. That has been ARRL's main opposition. And (IMO) as is always the case, the one with more influence, clout, and money comes out on top. The CAI is more well connected than ham radio's ARRL. Government will always pander to the larger special interest groups, because all they're interested in is what's in it for them. In any case, a tough road ahead to get HOA/CC&R antenna relief legislation passed.

73,  Bob K7JQ

Most of the Congressional denizens depend on the lobby industry to fund their campaign fund and CAI is certainly among the financial contributors on whom they depend.

If we want to get really upset about the “real world” of politics, the auto industry and UAW spent millions ensuring that Congress never enacted meaningful lemon law legislation which clearly would have benefited everyone. That is only one example of the problem you describe.

If Congress can’t find it’s way to help everyone, the chance of helping a few seem doomed.
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KB8VUL

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2019, 08:09:08 PM »

I see that there is some question as to exactly what an HOA can and can't regulate.
That is going to depend on two things.  First being the state you live in and what their laws are pertaining to HOA's and CC&R agreements.
The second being the creativity of the board of the HOA to create newer and in some instances crazier regulations.

I had a buddy that looked at a house in Muirfield Village, in Dublin Ohio.  This backs up the Muirfield golf course and country club.
The book of restrictions and regulations at that time was over 300 pages and covered everything from the color of the shingles on the house, the minimum percentage of stone work required to be on the house, the color of the house, color and age of vehicles... All sorts of stuff.  Of course there were antenna restrictions in with all the rest and you had to be approved by the board to live there, and pay crazy monthly fee's to have that privilege.  I of course could never live there as they would be trying to have me removed before I got unpacked.  Not that I would ever want to live there.  But here's the rub.  An HOA is not some legal government agreement between you and your local government where the rule of law and personal property rights trump the nutty government.  An HOA CC&R agreement is a binding contract that exists between you and your neighbors and the HOA board.  There is not one of these contracts that doesn't state that they have the rights to adjust the rules at ANY point with only minimal notice.  And due to it being a private agreement, there is NO way out of it except to leave the area that it is enforced. 

Coupled with the fact that there ARE neighborhood Nazi's out there that really have a chip on their shoulder, enjoy making others bow to them and have NOTHING better to do than walk around their neighborhood with a color wheel checking to see if you need to REPAINT your house that's the right colorbut faded... and before you go screaming about trespassing, you signed a document that said YOU agreed for them to check the paint on your house so no your not calling the cops.  And you choose to live this way when you enter into a LEGAL arrangement with the HOA.  You for the most part are marrying those people.  And they can crawl up your butt as far and as fast as they want with their copy of the regulations rolled up and beating you in the head with them and you can say NOTHING. 

If you want a real solution to these silly things, you need to get the entire HOA membership together and vote to amend the agreement that the HOA folds after the neighborhood has existed (or last house is build) for some reasonable length of time, say 10 or 15 years. And then wait.  Or you contact your state government and push for state laws that ultimately limit the HOA's legal authority to fine you.  Or set a maximum amount you can be fined in a calendar year. Then you can walk in on the first Monday in January, write them a check for that amount and tell them to kiss your ass.

And as far as stating that telling folks to avoid entering into an agreement that you have NO SAY in how the agreement is written, what legal rights you have, how much you can be fined for ANYTHING that the powers that be mandate is offensive is ultimately a ludicrous statement. 
And sitting here trying to give people idea's on how to circumvent the rules that they agreed to under is equally ludicrous.  So if we are going to continue with this, I suggest that we create another part to the eham forum.  What my fines cost me after I followed the advice of some dude on the Internet with my "stealth antenna" and got raked over the coals.   
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 08:21:54 PM by KB8VUL »
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K7JQ

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2019, 03:49:17 AM »

Quite a diatribe. I think someone got up on the wrong side of the bed ;D.

73,

"Some Dude on the Internet"
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WW5F

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2019, 11:02:53 AM »

When I found a house my wife and I liked, I told the realtor we'd like to make an offer, but before we could do that, we'd like to see a copy of the CC&R's.  She said, "What do you need those for?"  This should tell everyone there are a lot of people out there who don't think ahead and somehow feel they don't need to follow the rules once they are agreed to in the whirlwind of paper signing at closing and are enforced.  (Some reference to this already in the thread that only annoys those who didn't do their due diligence.)

I agreed to the CC&Rs and then made an offer.  (I agreed to no antenna higher than 15 feet over the apex of the roof.)

Another thing people seem to be forgetting (obtuse references to this by some who've already posted in here) is that we are a *limited* republic of 50 democratic states.  The federal government is a 51st government.  And the HOA is the smallest form of government (within a government, within a government, within a government...).  This continued ARRL attempt to get the federal government to write a law that skips (usurps) the state, county, city, municipality and overrides an HOA is... well, that's why so many people are angry these days.  And it's not just about HOAs.

Sorry, am I wrong to be *for* the rule of law agreed to by the original 13 states and as amended through the years? 

Peace out.
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WB2KSP

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2019, 02:37:40 PM »

When I found a house my wife and I liked, I told the realtor we'd like to make an offer, but before we could do that, we'd like to see a copy of the CC&R's.  She said, "What do you need those for?"  This should tell everyone there are a lot of people out there who don't think ahead and somehow feel they don't need to follow the rules once they are agreed to in the whirlwind of paper signing at closing and are enforced.  (Some reference to this already in the thread that only annoys those who didn't do their due diligence.)

I agreed to the CC&Rs and then made an offer.  (I agreed to no antenna higher than 15 feet over the apex of the roof.)

Another thing people seem to be forgetting (obtuse references to this by some who've already posted in here) is that we are a *limited* republic of 50 democratic states.  The federal government is a 51st government.  And the HOA is the smallest form of government (within a government, within a government, within a government...).  This continued ARRL attempt to get the federal government to write a law that skips (usurps) the state, county, city, municipality and overrides an HOA is... well, that's why so many people are angry these days.  And it's not just about HOAs.

Sorry, am I wrong to be *for* the rule of law agreed to by the original 13 states and as amended through the years? 

Peace out.


Please don't misunderstand me because I do not intend to make this into a political discussion. I understand what you are saying however, there are times where the federal government must get involved (at least as I see it). Not that many years ago if you were African American or Jewish or any long list of minority's, there were many neighborhoods where you could not purchase a home. It wasn't only in the pre civil rights south either. Was the federal government getting involved in that area a wrong decision or were they over stepping their power? As to what is more important, that isn't the issue here. That's an individual judgement. The feds have stepped in to legalize the construction of a flag pole on a persons private property within an HOA. Should they not have put that into law? While individual states have laws which apply specifically to the state, there are federal laws which supersede state laws. I believe the reason the feds are involved is because the use of radio equipment (which by necessity requires and antenna for it to function properly) is federally licensed and controlled. By disallowing antennas and in some cases the attempt to disallow the use of transmission equipment the local HOA is trying to override something which is legally controlled and licensed by the federal government.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 02:40:39 PM by WB2KSP »
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K1VSK

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2019, 03:37:19 PM »



Another thing people seem to be forgetting (obtuse references to this by some who've already posted in here) is that we are a *limited* republic of 50 democratic states.  The federal government is a 51st government.  And the HOA is the smallest form of government (within a government, within a government, within a government...).  This continued ARRL attempt to get the federal government to write a law that skips (usurps) the state, county, city, municipality and overrides an HOA is... well, that's why so many people are angry these days.  And it's not just about HOAs.

Sorry, am I wrong to be *for* the rule of law agreed to by the original 13 states and as amended through the years? 

Peace out.

Some people forget we fought a war in the 1860s over issues regarding states’ rights.
It’s important to note the license grant is a privilege, not a right, and anytime someone implies having an antenna is a right, I have to smile. When coupled to the reference of civil rights and discrimination in housing, it gets ludicrous.

Why people can’t simply admit that playing with their radio is the only basis to support legislative or regulatory action is monumentally transparent.
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WW5F

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2019, 05:15:35 PM »

...
...

WB2KSP,

Yes, I fully agree with the federal government stepping in when American citizens are being denied basic human rights based on race, creed, color, religion or sex.

But I don't see the ability to put up an obnoxious sky hook as a basic human right.  (Yes, "obnoxious" is a relative term--what may be reasonably accommodating to one may be obnoxious to another.)

What I see is since we are a land of laws which are based on years and years of incremental "precedence", maybe we've reached a point where there are precedents now which could be argued as reasons to start removing basic human rights from others.  Maybe we, as a nation, need to step back and evaluate the thousands and thousands of pages of laws which no one fully understands any more.  Maybe that's the reason so many people are angry these days--because we all don't know all the rules any more.  I've struggled to keep things as simple as possible my whole life.

Such as, since there's a federal law saying flag poles are ok, that could be interpreted as a precedence in which the next incremental step is to mean 100' towers are ok, which lowers the visual appeal to future buyers in that neighborhood, thus lowering housing prices in that neighborhood where the majority of folks currently living in that neighborhood have home ownership as part of their "investment portfolio," thus lowering their projected retirement plans, thus infringing on their basic human right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

...
...

K1VSK,

Yes, since the airwaves are an international issue, it makes sense that the federal government should regulate it.  And yes, just because they grant you a license to use those airwaves, that doesn't give you a right to infringe on others.

Thomas Jefferson said, "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add ‘within the limits of the law’, because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

(Our founders don't get enough credit these days--they were pretty smart.)

Or a more recent quote:  In the early 1900's U.S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr said, “Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins.”

Yes, I have to try to smile also when these issues come up.  Besides, we have countless other much bigger issues to deal with other than the ability for a handful of hams to play with radios.

Sorry, this is the only way I can clearly state my opposition to the ARRL's effort to lobby congress to write any kind of law that... well any kind of law.

Carry on.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 05:18:16 PM by W5UAA »
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