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Author Topic: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!  (Read 3095 times)

W9IQ

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2019, 09:01:08 AM »

Flag POLES DO NOT have to be accommodated.

Well, there are at least three states with statutes that disagree and there is case law to the contrary. But rather than going down a rat hole, allow me modify the premise:

A ham in an HOA has received permission from his/her HOA to install a flag pole.

Would you support a federal law that mandates he/she is also allowed to use the above approved flagpole as an antenna? (No additional visible appendages, etc. would be permitted so the approved appearance would be preserved.)

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

W1MOW

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2019, 09:03:26 AM »

Since flag poles must be accommodated and since most external antennas are not permitted, would this crowd support a federal law that allowed all otherwise accommodated flag poles to be used as amateur radio antennas?

- Glenn W9IQ

Flag POLES DO NOT have to be accommodated. Displaying the American flag must be accommodated. An HOA does have the right to dictate how and where the flag can be displayed. For instance, they can limit the display to a certain size flag affixed to a small pole at a 45 degree angle attached to a bracket on the side of the house. They can limit the size of a flag if it obstructs the view of a neighbor. If they do allow flagpoles, they can also prohibit the thump-thump noise of the rope flapping/clanging against the pole in the wind. Check with your HOA for their requirements.

Stop reading into Glenn's question and answer...

A homeowner in a HOA goes through all the hurdles and gets approved by his Home Owners Association to install a flagpole.

NOW NO OTHER BS...Would you support a law allowing him to use this "APPROVED" flag pole as an antenna?

This is a YES or NO answer....Nothing else!

Gary W1MOW
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The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt - Bertram Russell (1935)

So not much has changed in almost 90 years!

K7JQ

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2019, 09:07:01 AM »



One more note:  Flag poles and TV receiving antennae are things that potentially affect everyone.  Allows freedom of speech, allows choice.  Hams are few and far between and transmitting antennae are not only a potential "eye sore" but also a potential source of RFI and a potential continuous thorn in your neighbors' ability to watch/listen to commercial broadcasts uninterrupted.

Simple as that also.

Peace out.
[/quote]

Approval for the majority, and rejection for the minority. I'm sure that will fly in a discrimination lawsuit. The problem here is the perception that an overly large ham radio antenna is an eyesore, and a hazard to the safety, health, and welfare to the community if it falls over. With the advent of digital TV transmissions, TVI/RFI to a TV has pretty much been eliminated. When is the last time you installed a low pass filter in your transmission line, or a high pass filter in a TV installation?

Someone else mentioned that "long boom and elevated TV antennas are beyond the scope of OTARD interpretation, and likely prohibited in most if not all HOA's". Are you sure of that? Read the FCC OTARD rule. No mention is made regarding the size or height of an over the air broadcast TV receiving antenna. It just must be capable of effectively receiving local broadcast stations. For the most part, digital TV transmissions are line of sight reception...no more "snowy" signals. You either receive them intact, or not at all. An HOA cannot stop you from capably receiving free over the air TV. If that means reasonably elevating over a hill or  obstruction, and having many elements due to the transmitting towers being far away, I don't think the HOA can stop you. Case in point is my neighbor (hilly neighborhood in an AZ desert setting) with a 20 foot mast on top of a two-story house with a large TV antenna on top...larger than a 6 meter beam. My ham radio antenna is prohibited. Just sayin'...... if anyone can prove me wrong, I'll listen.

73,  Bob K7JQ
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K7JQ

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2019, 09:23:13 AM »

Since flag poles must be accommodated and since most external antennas are not permitted, would this crowd support a federal law that allowed all otherwise accommodated flag poles to be used as amateur radio antennas?

- Glenn W9IQ

Flag POLES DO NOT have to be accommodated. Displaying the American flag must be accommodated. An HOA does have the right to dictate how and where the flag can be displayed. For instance, they can limit the display to a certain size flag affixed to a small pole at a 45 degree angle attached to a bracket on the side of the house. They can limit the size of a flag if it obstructs the view of a neighbor. If they do allow flagpoles, they can also prohibit the thump-thump noise of the rope flapping/clanging against the pole in the wind. Check with your HOA for their requirements.

Stop reading into Glenn's question and answer...

A homeowner in a HOA goes through all the hurdles and gets approved by his Home Owners Association to install a flagpole.

NOW NO OTHER BS...Would you support a law allowing him to use this "APPROVED" flag pole as an antenna?

This is a YES or NO answer....Nothing else!

Gary W1MOW

OK, Gary ;). I was just responding to Glenn's statement that "flagpoles MUST be accommodated...". No BS...they don't, except in three proven states ;D.

Now, no BS. YES...I would support such a law. I'm a ham operator...why not?

73, Bob K7JQ
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WW5F

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2019, 11:08:34 AM »



One more note:  Flag poles and TV receiving antennae are things that potentially affect everyone.  Allows freedom of speech, allows choice.  Hams are few and far between and transmitting antennae are not only a potential "eye sore" but also a potential source of RFI and a potential continuous thorn in your neighbors' ability to watch/listen to commercial broadcasts uninterrupted.

Simple as that also.

Peace out.


Approval for the majority, and rejection for the minority. I'm sure that will fly in a discrimination lawsuit. The problem here is the perception that an overly large ham radio antenna is an eyesore, and a hazard to the safety, health, and welfare to the community if it falls over. With the advent of digital TV transmissions, TVI/RFI to a TV has pretty much been eliminated. When is the last time you installed a low pass filter in your transmission line, or a high pass filter in a TV installation?

Someone else mentioned that "long boom and elevated TV antennas are beyond the scope of OTARD interpretation, and likely prohibited in most if not all HOA's". Are you sure of that? Read the FCC OTARD rule. No mention is made regarding the size or height of an over the air broadcast TV receiving antenna. It just must be capable of effectively receiving local broadcast stations. For the most part, digital TV transmissions are line of sight reception...no more "snowy" signals. You either receive them intact, or not at all. An HOA cannot stop you from capably receiving free over the air TV. If that means reasonably elevating over a hill or  obstruction, and having many elements due to the transmitting towers being far away, I don't think the HOA can stop you. Case in point is my neighbor (hilly neighborhood in an AZ desert setting) with a 20 foot mast on top of a two-story house with a large TV antenna on top...larger than a 6 meter beam. My ham radio antenna is prohibited. Just sayin'...... if anyone can prove me wrong, I'll listen.

73,  Bob K7JQ
"Approval for the majority, and rejection for the minority. I'm sure that will fly in a discrimination lawsuit." 

Non sequitur.  This is not about discrimination based class or category, such as race or gender (rather than individual merit).  A ham license is merit based, at least for a few more years.

"The problem here is the perception that an overly large ham radio antenna is an eyesore..."

"Perception" is the key word here.  People have different perceptions and this is the source of much disagreement these days.

"For the most part, digital TV transmissions are line of sight reception...no more "snowy" signals. You either receive them intact, or not at all."

This is not true.  I view OTA TV because I choose to remove my access to some channels because I absolutey refuse to support a few other channels (that come with the package and can't be removed).  I absolutely refuse to financially support a couple of these channels in any way, shape or form, even at the expense of not having access to some other channels that I like.  This is my choice and I have it because TV antennae are specifically allowed in my CC&Rs (with height/size restrictions--mine is actually in my attic and invisible from the outside, but that's beside the point.)  I have several OTA channels that pixelate due to ducting and other atmospheric phenomenon at TV frequencies.  That's the digital equivalent of analog snowy.  And I've tested my TVI potential.  When I put a TV in my ham shack, extend the rabbit ears, key up 100 watts on 15 meters, the "4-bar" local channel completely freezes until I unkey.  Luckily, only on 15.  So I don't operate on 15 (much...)

Again, we are a republic of 50 democratic states.  The 51st government was agreed to by those 50 democratic states and the agreement came from severely limiting the 51st government in its power and scope.  I view that 51st government telling the little HOA what they can and can't do beyond all the laws written to prevent discrimination based on race, color, creed, religion, etc. is more than "over reach" because they are usurping powers not delegated to them in the agreement. (Not to mention how many levels of government they are skipping over.)

There are real, practical answers to solving this issue of HOA's restricting the ham's ability to play with radios (without needing federal intervention) and they've already been mentioned several times.  The answer lies in the freedoms we all have, but some of the freedoms we have are difficult for some and they'd rather impose themselves on others and make life difficult on others in order to make their lives easier.  This is the sad state of our republic for many other issues also.

Respect for your neighbors is key to solving the issue of hams in restricted HOAs.  But I guess we'll always have a few bad apples.

I question those who are pushing for federal legislation which usurps power through several levels of government.  Are these hams doing this because they truly want to get on the air or are they doing this because they want to put up some sort of giant obelisk monument visible by all for some type of personal gratification reason?  I don't see anything wrong with a stealth flagpole antenna.  There are several other stealth antennae designs that are much easier to install also.  And if these compromise antennae aren't enough, there are at least two other answers, which have already been stated multiple times, but for some reason, those answers are being emphatically rejected because they are said to be of no help and don't solve the problem (when they actually do.)

(again)

Thomas Jefferson said, "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add ‘within the limits of the law’, because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

(Our founders don't get enough credit these days--they were pretty smart.)

Or a more recent quote:  In the early 1900's U.S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr said, “Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins.”

I'm beginning to repeat myself so I'll let this post fade into obscurity, become forgotten and let you guys carry on.  Peace out.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 11:11:08 AM by W5UAA »
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K1VSK

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2019, 12:00:02 PM »

Since flag poles must be accommodated and since most external antennas are not permitted, would this crowd support a federal law that allowed all otherwise accommodated flag poles to be used as amateur radio antennas?

- Glenn W9IQ

Flag POLES DO NOT have to be accommodated. Displaying the American flag must be accommodated. An HOA does have the right to dictate how and where the flag can be displayed. For instance, they can limit the display to a certain size flag affixed to a small pole at a 45 degree angle attached to a bracket on the side of the house. They can limit the size of a flag if it obstructs the view of a neighbor. If they do allow flagpoles, they can also prohibit the thump-thump noise of the rope flapping/clanging against the pole in the wind. Check with your HOA for their requirements.

Stop reading into Glenn's question and answer...

A homeowner in a HOA goes through all the hurdles and gets approved by his Home Owners Association to install a flagpole.

NOW NO OTHER BS...Would you support a law allowing him to use this "APPROVED" flag pole as an antenna?

This is a YES or NO answer....Nothing else!

Gary W1MOW

These ‘straw man’ debates are both senseless and misleading. In this case, the hypothetical approval is for a flagpole. Not an antenna which appears to be a flagpole. Consequently, lacking approval from an HOA of a flagpole antenna, it’s a moot point. Entertaining but still moot.
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W9IQ

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2019, 12:29:02 PM »

You keep poking at it but you cannot commit to answering a simple question.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K1VSK

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2019, 01:46:45 PM »

You keep poking at it but you cannot commit to answering a simple question.

- Glenn W9IQ

Simple questions are fine. Nonsensical ones not so much. Regardless, I did try explaining it to you but clearly you prefer arguing.
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K6JH

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #68 on: December 10, 2019, 02:15:35 PM »

...I have respect for my neighbors and they obviously respect me, simple as that. ...
Yes, respect between neighbors.  I have that also.  Laws that allow you to disrespect your neighbors are the definition of tyranny.

One more note:  Flag poles and TV receiving antennae are things that potentially affect everyone.  Allows freedom of speech, allows choice.  Hams are few and far between and transmitting antennae are not only a potential "eye sore" but also a potential source of RFI and a potential continuous thorn in your neighbors' ability to watch/listen to commercial broadcasts uninterrupted.

Simple as that also.

Peace out.

Except one person's version of respect is different than another. It depends on point of view.

They think I shouldn't be allowed to transmit a signal that interferes with their cheaply made TV's ability to receive (even though FCC law says differently - a tyrannical law from his point of view?). I think his cheesy solar panel inverters shouldn't generate a 20 over signal across HF (again against an FCC non-tyrannical law!).

To a certain extent we all have to put up with the idiosyncrasies of others. Or live in an HOA...  ;)
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73
Jim K6JH

W9IQ

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2019, 04:14:46 PM »

You keep poking at it but you cannot commit to answering a simple question.

- Glenn W9IQ

Simple questions are fine. Nonsensical ones not so much. Regardless, I did try explaining it to you but clearly you prefer arguing.

I am not arguing - I am just waiting for a simple yes or no to the straight forward question.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K1VSK

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #70 on: December 10, 2019, 06:28:39 PM »

You keep poking at it but you cannot commit to answering a simple question.

- Glenn W9IQ

Simple questions are fine. Nonsensical ones not so much. Regardless, I did try explaining it to you but clearly you prefer arguing.

I am not arguing - I am just waiting for a simple yes or no to the straight forward question.

- Glenn W9IQ
I knew there was a reason I put you on my ignore list ( the only one). May have to re-visit removing you. You add nothing to the discussion.
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W9FIB

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #71 on: December 10, 2019, 06:42:10 PM »

I think there is merit in Glen's question. If a flag pole is accommodated by an HOA, then I think it would be a good thing to have it used as an antenna. I could see where the flag pole is (to most) unobtrusive and patriotic. So why would anyone care if it were made of metal and had a coax connection to it in a bush growing at the base that no one can see. But yes to be legal, there would need to be a pre-emption for it to hold a flag and transmit. However IMO, 95% of the planet wouldn't know the difference between one that can transmit and one that can't.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

N9LCD

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #72 on: December 10, 2019, 07:03:56 PM »

"REASONABLE ACCOMMODATION"

What you want to get and the other guy doesn't want to give.

N9LCD  ::)
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KB8VUL

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #73 on: December 10, 2019, 08:16:48 PM »

I too believe that Glenn's question has merit. And my answer to it is a simple YES.  I would support a law that provided REASONABLE accommodation for a flag pole that was also used as an antenna with the following condition.  It has to be of reasonable height, say under 50 foot, and it MUST display a flag at all times that it would be reasonable and lawful to do so, and that flag be maintained and replaced to keep it in proper and lawful display.  I used lawful display, and if you look into what that is there are laws and regulations on how an American flag must be displayed.  Including taking it down at night if it's not lit.  It can not be worn or tattered. It must be flown above all other flags on the pole it's on.  Never flown upside down unless there is an emergency. So it CAN"T just be a pole in the ground,,, it would HAVE to fly the stars and stripes for me to support it being there... but if done that way, I would support the idea of it being an antenna in a restricted community, and appear as a flag pole.
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K1VSK

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Re: HOA Lapdogs Beware:The ARRL is BACK!
« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2019, 10:27:54 AM »

I think there is merit in Glen's question. If a flag pole is accommodated by an HOA, then I think it would be a good thing to have it used as an antenna. I could see where the flag pole is (to most) unobtrusive and patriotic. So why would anyone care if it were made of metal and had a coax connection to it in a bush growing at the base that no one can see. But yes to be legal, there would need to be a pre-emption for it to hold a flag and transmit. However IMO, 95% of the planet wouldn't know the difference between one that can transmit and one that can't.

It’s a specious question simply because in his example, the HOA hypothetically approved a flag pole, not an antenna disguised as a flagpole and hypothesizing the Federal government legislating a second -use purpose is ludicrous on its face.

To use a cliche, garbage in -garbage out.

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