Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: DMR for Emergency Communications and Public Service  (Read 536 times)

KG7LEA

  • Member
  • Posts: 100
DMR for Emergency Communications and Public Service
« on: December 06, 2019, 01:47:30 PM »

Are any ARES and Emcomm groups including DMR in their planning? This mode is gaining popularity in the Pacific Northwest and DMR Public Service nets are more common, but how, exactly will this mode be deployed? Amateur Radio public service is defined geographically and jurisdictions are served well by analog repeaters.
Logged

NA4IT

  • Member
  • Posts: 363
    • HomeURL
Re: DMR for Emergency Communications and Public Service
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2019, 04:11:57 AM »

Let me give you a common sense approach to this. How many people have DMR radios?

Most hams will have older analog radios.

Example. I am a volunteer fire chaplain for a county fire department that runs backup for a paid city department. At one time, we all ran analog, albeit in two bands, us on UHF and the city on VHF. But we could talk to each other on ANY analog radio.

The city decided to go NXDN. Now we can't talk to them, and they can't talk to us. Makes it hard to coordinate a fire scene.

Sometimes latest is not always greatest...
Logged

W9IQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 8866
Re: DMR for Emergency Communications and Public Service
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2019, 04:43:49 AM »

A question that needs review by the emergency group is what features of DMR are needed or desired in an emergency? Many of the desirable DMR features require a working backbone (typically the Internet) and related servers to be available. Will these be available in the served agency emergency scenarios?

I also encourage emergency groups to disable (real, not simulated) all backbone services as part of a drill scenario to ensure that the DMR comms (or backup comms) and procedures can still fulfill the mission.

- Glenn W9IQ
Logged
- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K5LXP

  • Member
  • Posts: 6823
    • homeURL
Re: DMR for Emergency Communications and Public Service
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2019, 08:33:56 AM »

Even if everyone was given a DMR radio for free, using something like this requires the infrastructure to run it, an operating protocol of how it's used, and a user base that can run it.  Layers of complexity that if it offered a key advantage might be worth it.  So the question to ask is what problem are you trying to solve rather than have a solution and look for problems to solve.  Listening to some of the ARES nets around here where they have a hard enough time programming a frequency and PL into their radios and getting a callsign right after repeating it phonetically 3 times I daresay introducing DMR into the mix is a non-starter.

One exception I would cite is the Rocky Mountain Ham group DMR system.  Their infrastructure is independent of the internet and their user base is very sharp on system operation.  Could be quite a useful tool to span across the front range and create subnets of operation.  But that's just one facet of "emcomm" that is great if your operation is extensive enough to include it but unless it is, I wouldn't go down that road at the risk of overextending the demands on the limited volunteer pool.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
Logged

N8AUC

  • Member
  • Posts: 1007
Re: DMR for Emergency Communications and Public Service
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2019, 03:24:47 PM »

I also encourage emergency groups to disable (real, not simulated) all backbone services as part of a drill scenario to ensure that the DMR comms (or backup comms) and procedures can still fulfill the mission.

- Glenn W9IQ

We did just that in Ohio for our statewide SET back in October.
DMR was not allowed, as was D-STAR and System Fusion. Repeater use was not
allowed. And if you weren't on emergency power, you were also out of the exercise.
Anything involving internet use was also not permitted.

If you needed to talk to the State EOC in Columbus, it was on 75 or 160 meters.
Weak signal digital modes with NVIS antennas were very effective as well.
As for adjacent counties, it's surprising how effective you can be on 2m simplex with
modest outdoor antennas at 25'.

It was probably the best and most educational SET we've had in Ohio in a long time.

73 de N8AUC
Eric
Logged

N8AUC

  • Member
  • Posts: 1007
Re: DMR for Emergency Communications and Public Service
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2019, 03:35:57 PM »

Around here, ARES activity generally falls into one of two categories.
Emergency and disaster communications, and what we call "public service events".
The latter are things like marathons, bike-a-thons, etc.

For public service events, using DMR could be a good thing. But you would really
constrict your base of available volunteers. For as popular as DMR is becoming,
most people do not have DMR radios yet. And good, high-profile DMR repeaters are
pretty sparse around here. That may change over time, but right now, not so much.
Sure, operating from home with a hot spot tied to your internet service works pretty
good. But in the field, for a 26 mile long marathon course? You almost need a
repeater with decent coverage.

Of course, who knows what the next hot VHF/UHF digital voice mode is going to be?
Once upon a time, D-STAR was going to be the big thing. Then it was System Fusion.
Now it's DMR. What's going to be the flavor of the month next? Analog FM is a lowest
common denominator. Seems like everyone has an analog radio.

For emergency and disaster communications, it is not wise to rely on infrastructure
you don't own and control. Because it may not be there when you really need it.

73 de N8AUC
Eric
Logged

K6CPO

  • Member
  • Posts: 839
Re: DMR for Emergency Communications and Public Service
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2019, 11:52:11 AM »

Are any ARES and Emcomm groups including DMR in their planning? This mode is gaining popularity in the Pacific Northwest and DMR Public Service nets are more common, but how, exactly will this mode be deployed? Amateur Radio public service is defined geographically and jurisdictions are served well by analog repeaters.

The San Diego ARES Group has embraced DMR to some extent.  We have a talk group that is in several local repeaters and we conduct a DMR net once a week.  The effectiveness of DMR as an emergency mode will be reduced if internet service is not available, but if the repeaters are still up it can be useful. 

The one failing I see with DMR is simplex operation. You can't just pick a frequency and talk. All the radios have to be part of a group and there has to be a "list" programmed into each radio.  For simplex operation, Yaesu's System Fusion is much simpler.  Push one button and you can use digital on any simplex frequency you choose.  And if all the radios are set to AMS, they will switch to digital automatically when they receive a digital signal.

What's making DMR more attractive is the price point of the radios and Yaesu is taking steps to correct this.  They are now marketing radios that are competitive with all the DMR options coming out of China.
Logged

KG7LEA

  • Member
  • Posts: 100
Re: DMR for Emergency Communications and Public Service
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2019, 07:08:27 AM »

Groups in our area are including DMR nets, and every day a ham goes online looking for code plugs for his or her new radio. I don't see where DMR offers anything over FM repeaters or simplex other than range. In Puerto Rico after Maria, four repeaters out of about 150 survived the storm. Volunteers resorted to a ham on a hilltop.

DMR has the range, but FM seems more "nimble" at handling pileups and just talking back and forth.

It seems to me that the best application is use over a wider area between groups and jurisdictions. Planning would include a net of cities or counties. The trick is to use or create a talk group that does not interfere with other areas.

Another application would be "horizontal" nets such as utilities or human services that cross jurisdictional lines, e.g., all pet shelters, all water utilities.
Logged

WA1VAB

  • Posts: 2
    • HomeURL
Re: DMR for Emergency Communications and Public Service
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2019, 01:20:28 PM »

When  you say "Emergency Communications" if you mean "Communications Emergency" you have qualified the emergency, meaning cell phones, computer networks don't work which means DMR won't work.  DMR competes with police, fire, medical etc. For Communications Emergencies we need radio operators not telephone operators.   
Logged

K6CPO

  • Member
  • Posts: 839
Re: DMR for Emergency Communications and Public Service
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2019, 05:08:02 PM »

When  you say "Emergency Communications" if you mean "Communications Emergency" you have qualified the emergency, meaning cell phones, computer networks don't work which means DMR won't work.  DMR competes with police, fire, medical etc. For Communications Emergencies we need radio operators not telephone operators.

DMR can still be effective in the event of an internet outage as long as the repeaters are still operational.  In that case, they will operate more like analog radio, but with the advantages of digital.
Logged

N1ZZZ

  • Member
  • Posts: 218
Re: DMR for Emergency Communications and Public Service
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2019, 07:29:09 AM »

DMR is on our IC-217 form.  It is a reserve resource since there are few amateurs in our response cadre that own the equipment.  Depending on the circumstances it can add a regional network that analog VHF/UHF repeaters may not be able to provide.  It's a good tool to have in the bag, but you have to be mindful of its inherent strengths and weaknesses.

Jeremy
Logged

KG7LEA

  • Member
  • Posts: 100
Re: DMR for Emergency Communications and Public Service
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2019, 08:34:13 AM »

For those groups with DMR on their resource lists how exactly will it be used? A replacement for repeaters? Longer range comms? With whom? Are groups coordinating as to talk groups to be used and for what?
Logged

KA9JYO

  • Member
  • Posts: 2
Re: DMR for Emergency Communications and Public Service
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2020, 05:44:55 AM »

I also encourage emergency groups to disable (real, not simulated) all backbone services as part of a drill scenario to ensure that the DMR comms (or backup comms) and procedures can still fulfill the mission.

- Glenn W9IQ

We did just that in Ohio for our statewide SET back in October.
DMR was not allowed, as was D-STAR and System Fusion. Repeater use was not
allowed. And if you weren't on emergency power, you were also out of the exercise.
Anything involving internet use was also not permitted.

If you needed to talk to the State EOC in Columbus, it was on 75 or 160 meters.
Weak signal digital modes with NVIS antennas were very effective as well.
As for adjacent counties, it's surprising how effective you can be on 2m simplex with
modest outdoor antennas at 25'.

It was probably the best and most educational SET we've had in Ohio in a long time.

That's how is done between vessels on the water ways to communicate the emergency to the USCG. Using VHF 25watts to relay the messages.
I also encourage emergency groups to disable (real, not simulated) all backbone services as part of a drill scenario to ensure that the DMR comms (or backup comms) and procedures can still fulfill the mission.

- Glenn W9IQ

We did just that in Ohio for our statewide SET back in October.
DMR was not allowed, as was D-STAR and System Fusion. Repeater use was not
allowed. And if you weren't on emergency power, you were also out of the exercise.
Anything involving internet use was also not permitted.

If you needed to talk to the State EOC in Columbus, it was on 75 or 160 meters.
Weak signal digital modes with NVIS antennas were very effective as well.
As for adjacent counties, it's surprising how effective you can be on 2m simplex with
modest outdoor antennas at 25'.

It was probably the best and most educational SET we've had in Ohio in a long time.

73 de N8AUC
Eric
Logged

KA4GFY

  • Member
  • Posts: 72
Re: DMR for Emergency Communications and Public Service
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2020, 09:27:54 AM »

While most hams doing EMCOM/Public Service work will have FM/Analog radios, more and more hams ARE picking up digital radios as well. 

Our ARES group looks at DMR/DSTAR/Fusion as another tool in the toolbox.  Having said that, we only use the digital radios if everybody shows up with one. 

73,
Rich, KA4GFY
Logged

KG7LEA

  • Member
  • Posts: 100
Re: DMR for Emergency Communications and Public Service
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2020, 09:37:35 AM »

Our ARES group looks at DMR/DSTAR/Fusion as another tool in the toolbox.  Having said that, we only use the digital radios if everybody shows up with one. 

Do you have a plan how to organize talk groups and for what purpose? Do you need to make arrangements with repeater owners or network managers?
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up