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Author Topic: Apartment Living?  (Read 1832 times)

N8CHR

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Apartment Living?
« on: December 26, 2019, 08:06:39 AM »

I just moved into a two story townhouse, bedrooms upstairs. Looking to get back on the air. Just to see what kind of signals I could receive I put a loop antenna in the window. Nothing, no signals received. Just noise. I know th at propagation is bad right now but still nothing. I was thinking of running a dipole around the ceiling to see if I could get anything. If I do, I would like to make the 20 meter dipole out of 26 or so ga wire. I haven't seen the apartment manager but I hear they frown about even putting pictures on the wall. I was wondering if I ran the wire and use plastic push pins to hold it to the ceiling and wrap the wire, say once around the pin what would be the effect of this wrap? What effect of using say a 16 ga wire? Would also like to use rg174 coax for stealth. Am I shooting my self in the foot before I even start? The only way to get a wire outside, and I haven't tried it yet, is a small ga wire thru the screen? The wire would have to just hang down. No connection points. Could I run the other side of a dipole in the bedroom? There has to be a million way to get some up to operate, I am more concern with interferance.    Any other ideas would be helpful. Desperate in Ohio.
Thanks Tom N8CHR
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K0UA

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Re: Apartment Living?
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2019, 08:45:35 AM »

Propagation isn't that bad.  Especially on the bands 14mhz and down.  Operating hf from an apartment is going to be pretty rough. The push pin loop isn't going to hurt anything.  The wire diameter doesn't matter.  The short run of 174a doesn't matter.  Digital modes are your best bet in such difficult circumstances. Try FT8. or JS8call.  Maybe feed your dropped wire against a ground with a good tuner.  Keep power low to mitigate RFI into your neighbors appliances. Give it a try.  Save up your money and buy a house out in the country.. :)  OR.  operate mobile/portable. I can attest that a Little Tarheel 2 antenna on a 2010 Silverado works very well with 100 watt rig even on SSB.  When operated as a stopped portable one morning, on FT8 and FT4, I worked a lot of DX to Europe and some South America from a parking lot in Branson Missouri.  Any antenna, even a mobile beats no antenna. A wire thrown in a tree in a park with a qrp rig will likely result in a lot more contacts than in your apartment.
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73  James K0UA

W1VT

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Re: Apartment Living?
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2019, 09:01:20 AM »

Propagation has been good to Asia the past couple days.  On Christmas eve I worked Dubai on 160. Country #137 on top band! On Christmas Sri Lanka was booming in on 30M.  This morning I worked a couple Japanese stations on 40.

I have wires in the trees on 0.3 acres.  My 160M inverted L is at 36'  Which is higher than the half squares I have for 30 and 40.

Zak W1VT
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W7XTV

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Re: Apartment Living?
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2019, 10:41:39 AM »

What is the construction of your building?  If it's wood frame, I don't understand why you don't hear anything.  Try 40 meters FT8 at night to verify that the antenna is working at all. 

If it's steel/concrete like an office building, or even worse, stucco/wire screen lath, you're kinda screwed.  My house is stucco/lath, and that wire screen is a 30-50 dB attenuator, depending on the frequency.  An indoor 10' x 10' horizontal loop that tuned 20-6 meters was completely useless.  No signals from the outside other than locals, and if there were any others, they were covered up by an S9 noise level from all the radiated garbage indoors.  I lived in a two-story townhouse like yours about a decade ago, but it was also stucco/lath on the outside.  Nothing worked there, either.

All I can suggest is that if you can sneak a wire outside, then try that.
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KX4Z

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Re: Apartment Living?
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2019, 11:35:04 AM »

is there a trap door or other access to the attic?
What is your roof made out of?   Shingles or metal?
2nd floor is not bad at all if your exterior isn't metal, as one person already pointed out.   
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ONAIR

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Re: Apartment Living?
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2019, 08:22:51 PM »

Try an end fed around the walls outside your windows!  They can even work indoors.
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K5LXP

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Re: Apartment Living?
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2019, 06:41:14 AM »

Do you have access to attic space?  Provided you don't have a metal roof or metal foil insulation you might be able to build an effective antenna up there.  In a past life I lived in a top floor apartment and I was able to sneak into the attic.  I had a couple of HF dipoles and VHF/UHF antennas up there.  Coax was routed down through the ceiling of a closet.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
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WA9AFM

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Re: Apartment Living?
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2019, 07:23:08 AM »

Tom, you didn't mention if you have a 'back yard' to mount a stealth vertical.  Also, if you don't have inside parking (garage) and you park in close proximity to you town home, consider a mobile antenna on your vehicle fed with coax in a slit trench.
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KL7CW

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Re: Apartment Living?
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2019, 11:22:02 AM »

Tom, operation from a townhouse or apartment will probably be a challenge, but my suggestion is just to keep experimenting with different configurations.  Modeling is probably not real productive.  Before I moved up to Alaska 50 years ago (with 3 acres in a rural area), I operated successfully from a townhouse and an apartment.  But that was before houses were filled with SMPS's, etc. and propagation was much better.  We travel often both in the US and overseas, and have operated from townhouses, hotels, HOA communities, etc.  Often operation is not successful, but sometimes it was possible.  In some situations it looked hopeless, but worked (kind of !).  In other situations it looked an ideal situation, but no luck.  Have used a #28 wire through window screens, some success.  Also hooked onto a metal rain gutter, and worked a few adjacent states with 1 watt CW.  Nearly 100 percent of my portable operation has been battery powered QRP CW from local parks, hiking trails, or even outside of a hotel or motel with a wire thrown up into a tree.  RX noise usually drops off rapidly as you get away from buildings and electronics.  Even 5 or 10 feet helps, and often a few hundred feet into a park, often the noise level drops to nearly zero.  I have even operated from northern Norway and Alaska in the winter with temperatures below freezing.  In the past I usually just used 1 watt on 40 or 20 meter CW, but with propagation so poor, I will probably go to something like a KX2 with its roughly 10 watt output for portable operation. My experience is that often (usually ?) you will not cause RFI with say 5 or so watts, but all bets are off with a 100 watt rig.  In my house I set off my CO and fire detectors on 160 with even something like 50 watts, so since they were old, I switched to another brand....no problem,  but who knows what will happen if I ever buy a linear amp.  My antennas are about 40 feet from my house.  Keep experimenting, and do give portable (or mobile) operation a try.  You may really enjoy it.  I sometimes backpack, set up a tent, and operate with 1 to 4 watts for 1 or 2 days.  Rick  KL7CW
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W3TTT

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Re: Apartment Living?
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2019, 06:33:38 PM »

Tom -
I like most of the suggestions listed so far:
  • Thin wire through a screen
  • Wire dipole around room
  • Hidden vertical in back yard
  • Vertical on car - park and connect when you want to operate
  • Tune up your rain spouts
  • Thin wire IN gutters
And here are my notes:
1. Get the other end up as high as possible, into a tree or something.  Use a 9:1 balun, and feed into a tuner
2.  You may get to "tune" the dipole, so you will not need a tuner.  Again, as was said before, wire size does not matter.
3. I have a non-hidden vertical right now.  But a hidden one would work the same.
4. A car antenna would double as your home antenna and your car antenna. 
5. And stick a ground rod into the ground.  Ohio soil is not conductive so much, so you could bury a ground system, or alternatively, just sprinkle salt around.  I use Kosher Salt.  Makes the ground much more conductive and good for radio (but bad for grass, but who cares about the grass?) 
6. If you have plastic gutters, and can't load them up, then simply put your antenna wire IN the gutter. 

I hope to "work" you soon. 
W3TTT
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W9FIB

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Re: Apartment Living?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2019, 03:04:36 AM »

I feel your pain. In collage I had an apartment on the second floor. It had a small balcony with a metal railing. I mounted a Hustler mobile HF antenna to the railing and fed it from a tuner. Could walk out and change bands by changing elements without any ladders or such. Worked Europe on 20 quite often. But conditions were much better.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

ONAIR

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Re: Apartment Living?
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2019, 01:49:17 AM »

Get a 10 foot fiberglass pole and put it horizontally out your window.  Then run a 23 foot wire along it, and let the rest droop down.  Attach a 9:1 unun, and you're in business!  Just pull the whole works inside when you're not operating.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 01:51:32 AM by ONAIR »
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KL7CW

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Re: Apartment Living?
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2019, 10:05:47 AM »

Operation from a park is often productive and very fun, however it can be expensive.  Typical situation, send wife with her credit card into London with our daughter and granddaughter.  They shop, go to a spa, eat out, and may even take in a show.  We all had a good day, but I could buy a good entry level transceiver with the amount of money they spend.  Sometimes I hike with a few of our grandsons into a remote area.  They usually get bored after an hour or two, even though they wanted to go and agreed to take along books, etc. for about a half day of operating.  40 or 50 years ago our children loved to hike and gladly spent all day reading, fishing, or whatever while I played radio, and my wife would be happy sitting and knitting, or working crosswords all day long (or even an overnight stay in a tent.)  Times have changed, and even my technically competent 7 grandchildren (mostly adults) have ZERO interest in ham radio.  Oh well.  Good luck with your apartment or park operation, and you will need a bit of it with our poor propagation.         Rick  KL7CW
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N8AUC

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Re: Apartment Living?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2019, 06:47:33 AM »

Do you have access to attic space?  Provided you don't have a metal roof or metal foil insulation you might be able to build an effective antenna up there.  In a past life I lived in a top floor apartment and I was able to sneak into the attic.  I had a couple of HF dipoles and VHF/UHF antennas up there.  Coax was routed down through the ceiling of a closet.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

I've done that too, with good results. It easily got me on 20 and 40 meters, as well as a vertical for 2m and 70cm. That access panel in the bedroom closet was wonderful!

But my first apartment wasn't that good. So what I did there, was make a 20 meter dipole and run it around the apartment where the ceiling met the wall. Red insulated wire held in place by black electrical tape. It worked great. But I did have to keep the power level low to avoid TVI to the upstairs neighbor.

73 de N8AUC
Eric
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W1VT

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Re: Apartment Living?
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2019, 07:00:12 AM »

I used to live in a very cheap one bedroom apartment.  Instead of moving to a better place I'd operate portable from really great locations.  Operating portable should be easier these days with all the compact radios that are available.

Zak W1VT
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