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Author Topic: Built in antenna's  (Read 700 times)

KB8VUL

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Built in antenna's
« on: January 28, 2020, 03:17:25 PM »

So I was contemplating the meaning of life, quantum theories, and RF propagation the other day, and it occurred to me that if you are
truly wanting to have your cake and eat it to figuratively, you could build a house in an HOA controlled community and hide antenna's in it as it was being built.  Of course you would need to choose construction materials that would support the idea.  Meaning that if you built a dual band VHF / UHF antenna in a wall, putting aluminum siding over it would tend to limit the effectiveness of the antenna.  But, you could in theory have dipoles in your vinyl siding.  A dual band omni in a wall.  A loop antenna in the soffit and many other types of antenna's both vertical and horizontal if they were put there as the house was being constructed.  Now of course you would need to work with your builder on this sort of thing and probably sign a waiver pertaining to the antenna's but I am betting that it's very possible to get this done and no one would ever be the wiser.

Just a thought,,,, one of many
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KF4HR

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Re: Built in antenna's
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2020, 04:01:26 PM »

Having your cake means building a house in a HOA controlled community?

In my book, that's bad tasting cake! 
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W0CKI

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Re: Built in antenna's
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2020, 04:16:30 PM »

Why not? House’s are built with sophisticated audio and WiFi systems. Antennas could be added.whether they would be effective may be questionable but it could be done.
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W6MK

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Re: Built in antenna's
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2020, 04:17:30 PM »

So I was contemplating...truly wanting to have your cake and eat it to [sic] figuratively, you could build a house in an HOA controlled community and hide antenna's [sic] in it as it was being built. 

I'd contemplate a bit more thoroughly building that cake. Yes you could hide all sorts of antennas
in a wall or along a soffit. However contemporary construction methods and building codes very likely will not frost your cake in an appetizing way.

However again, useful heights for HF antennas, especially on the lower bands, far exceed the heights of most two-story or even three story construction.

The power of the tower remains unassailed by the would-be cake maker.
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K1VSK

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Re: Built in antenna's
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2020, 06:02:01 PM »

Ham radio is fundamentally a communications hobby. It might be a better use of time to learn that “antenna’s” isn’t plural nor is “house’s”. 
As to the concept of contemplating antenna design in a home where antennas are prohibited, it  seems like that train of thought doesn’t have a caboose.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 06:05:50 PM by K1VSK »
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K4TB

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Re: Built in antenna's
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2020, 07:18:05 PM »

That's a thought, but here's another maybe:  Build some artificial trees in your yard that serve as vertical antenna arrays, or simply hide all your antennas outdoors against real trees and other plantings wherever possible.  People generally like plants.

I managed to put a 33' vertical in my yard which is no more than a wire inside an free-standing fiberglass pole which is painted black. I connected the antenna to 16 buried radial wires.  The pole is situated next to some trees so it blends in with the scenery. I use a remote tuner to cover 80-10M.  I also have several black verticals on my 6' tall back fence next to a tree line that cover 6m, 2m, 70 cm & 23cm.  Finally I have a horizontal loop for 2m and one for 70cm on a PVC pole disguised as parts of a weather vane with a 8' tall jasmine vine around its base. I use the loops to work satellites.  I have had good results on all bands. Recently I worked Indonesia from Florida with only 100 watts on 40m SSB.  I've found that locating antennas away from the house cuts down on RFI from household appliances.  However sometimes plants can cause some degradation to signals:  My 6m vertical gets temporarily de-tuned some when it rains due to a huge nearby bush.

So good luck with whatever solution you come up with! - K4TB
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KB8VUL

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Re: Built in antenna's
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2020, 09:42:24 PM »

Well, it was just a thought.  Personally I didn't bother with any of that.  I put up towers.
Yes, there are some shortcomings to putting your HF antennas below 50 feet.  But if you are restricted, a hidden antenna is better than NO antenna.
As far as the grammer Nazi... Heil correct punctuation.  Seeing as you had little to no actual thought on the subject, and needed to be included, ok... I used punctuation indicating plural nouns in an incorrect way.  Ya got me.  Obviously I am gonna face capital punishment for my transgressions, so cook me up bacon and egg's for my last meal... clown.

I was sort of thinking that this part of the forum was based loosely on the idea that some folks are living in a restricted neighborhood.  And they want to play radio with the rest of us.  So they are looking for ideas on how to live under the antenna Nazi,,, sort of like a grammer Nazi, but with actual teeth, and play a bit of radio.   Guess I was mistaken, and in true hammie fashion, when someone speaks up about something others disagree with we make fun of them... I forgot about how we all act like adults in ham radio.  How we are all for the betterment of the hobby, and no matter what we ALWAYS attempt to make everyone feel welcome in the hobby.

So here's my parting shot.  While you may think your funny.  Here's where MY hammie antennas are.

20171211_172846 by kb8vul, on Flickr
So how do you like them apples?
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W4FID

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Re: Built in antenna's
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2020, 03:56:48 AM »

ANY antenna installation ANYWHERE needs to be mindful of the potential for high voltages arcing to flammable materials. Even at 100 watts there could be places along the wire where the RF voltage exceeds the "standard" house wire insulation rating. Dry wood like inside a wall or attic can catch fire. Creative ideas can and do work. But consideration for safety has to be part of the planning and installing process.
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K1VSK

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Re: Built in antenna's
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2020, 04:52:06 AM »

  Seeing as you had little to no actual thought on the subject, and needed to be included, ...

Guess I hit a nerve. It’s always interesting to see how cavalierly some take writing properly while concurrently trying to circumvent rules in other areas such as contractual rules preventing antennas.

And to state the obvious, that was an “actual thought”  in my prior comment to which you were apparently blinded by your defensiveness.

Builders in HOAs typically have a nexus to the developer(s) who codify the rules for their development so suggesting the builder knowingly violate established building codes doesn’t reflect well on the integrity of either party. And they can spell...
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N0YXB

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Re: Built in antenna's
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2020, 08:04:48 AM »

Here's where MY hammie antennas are.

20171211_172846 by kb8vul, on Flickr

Ah, the good ole days. I've installed similar antennas on similar towers. Having a tower like that in the backyard would be something to behold.
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KB1GMX

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Re: Built in antenna's
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2020, 01:27:28 PM »

My two cents on building in HOA...

If you forced into that for commute, lifestyle, health, and so on
it has potential.  That means if you can manage the build variation
and control materials used it can work.  Generally the roof and
high points will be most useful. 

IT may also means power limitations as arcing and systems
[heating , cooling, fire alarms] issues with RFI will have to be
worked out.

Is it ideal, likely not. But if people can't see it you have a lot of
advantages.  Its not a tower or a wire out in the clear but that
can be investigated as well, in addition to what you already have.

Rule 3, any antenna is better than a bucket of wire in storage.

Allison
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KL7CW

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Re: Built in antenna's
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2020, 03:50:29 PM »

One idea I have seen mentioned is to have your house built with a top floor with a single unfinished room with no electrical or conductive materials.  Use non conductive siding and something RF friendly for the roof shingles.  This could be used for antennas, even small VHF or even possibly a short 10 meter Moxon, or whatever.  The RF exposure may be OK downstairs if you limit your power to something like 50 or 100 watts.  Another idea I have though about, but never tried, since I have towers and 3 acres, is to have ridge vents installed along the roof peaks.  You could glue a small wire on the top of the vent, or even run the wire inside the roof vent.  My roof vents look like plastic material and are probably non-conductive.  You could even route the coax, or open wire  feedlines down through the attic. Once again this is a compromise antenna idea. Also have plastic rain gutters installed, you could later lay antenna wires inside the gutters.  Possibly even something like a STEPPIR element in the gutter or roof vent.  A Ham friend of mine bought a HOA home and his lot was immediately adjacent to some undeveloped land.  His idea was to put a ham antenna just beyond his back fence, and I think he had an agreement with the farmer or landowner, however he became a silent key before he could do anything.  As previously stated, probably a stealth wire out away from your house will probably be better than any of these VERY compromise "solutions". One more thought, a center fed dipole, even as short as something like 44 feet can be used on most bands from 40 to 6 meters if you can put an automatic tuner at the feed point, or perhaps use open wire or ladder line to a tuner in your shack.  Again just an idea, do your own research.     Rick  KL7CW 
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W6MK

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Re: Built in antenna's
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2020, 04:14:38 PM »

One idea I have seen mentioned is to have your house built with a top floor with a single unfinished room with no electrical or conductive materials.

A Ham friend of mine bought a HOA home...however he became a silent key before he could do anything.

Again just an idea, do your own research.     Rick  KL7CW

Lots of very merry ideas from Rick. Gave me many chuckles.

Maybe the main chuckle would be re-phrasing of his top floor room idea: make your antenna look
like a room! With a big enough (possibly rotating) room, which is really a three element quad in disguise, you could be a DX king without arousing any HOA unneighborly concern.

I think plastic palm trees are pretty easy to come by. Two 30 footers with a #28 wire in between
could be pretty sweet and very discreet.

Then there are the on-ground antenna designs. They do work, even if they are not likely to top a tower.

Possibly living in an HOA is a way to hasten the SK thing. I dunno, but I avoid anything akin to
an HOA, condo, gated community, etc. Oh the peace and freedom of a tiny city lot surrounded by
houses with dozens of wall warts and plasma TVs, not to mention solar panels or power lines.



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K7JQ

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Re: Built in antenna's
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2020, 05:29:05 AM »

To HOA or not to HOA is strictly a personal preference, based on life priorities and individual circumstances. It's unfortunate that most have antenna restrictions, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. Much in life requires compromises.

When I first moved into my current HOA home 18 years ago, I was able to install remotely switched mono-band dipoles for 10, 12, 15, 17, 20, and 40 meters in the attic over a garage with no electric wires or HVAC equipment. All wood construction and concrete roof tiles here in AZ. They worked pretty sweet for a compromised situation, but over the years technology in appliances, video and audio equipment, cable and satellite boxes/DVR's, modems, etc with those darn RFI generating hash emitting wall warts gradually rendered the dipoles useless with increasing noise levels. Obviously, getting the antennas outside would substantially reduce the noise.

I'm now using a ground-mounted screwdriver antenna with radials, and another screwdriver for SO2R contesting mounted on a steel fence as a counterpoise. Both have 80-10 meter coverage, SWR's less than 1.5:1 on all bands, no tuner needed. Very stealth with no HOA (never asked for permission) or neighbor complaints for the last 13 years, and greatly reduced noise levels. Enjoying the hobby, and living where I want. No complaints with all the other CC&R regulations. You gotta do what you can with what you have to work with ;).

73,  Bob K7JQ
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K0UA

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Re: Built in antenna's
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2020, 04:06:19 PM »

To HOA or not to HOA is strictly a personal preference, based on life priorities and individual circumstances. It's unfortunate that most have antenna restrictions, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. Much in life requires compromises.

When I first moved into my current HOA home 18 years ago, I was able to install remotely switched mono-band dipoles for 10, 12, 15, 17, 20, and 40 meters in the attic over a garage with no electric wires or HVAC equipment. All wood construction and concrete roof tiles here in AZ. They worked pretty sweet for a compromised situation, but over the years technology in appliances, video and audio equipment, cable and satellite boxes/DVR's, modems, etc with those darn RFI generating hash emitting wall warts gradually rendered the dipoles useless with increasing noise levels. Obviously, getting the antennas outside would substantially reduce the noise.

I'm now using a ground-mounted screwdriver antenna with radials, and another screwdriver for SO2R contesting mounted on a steel fence as a counterpoise. Both have 80-10 meter coverage, SWR's less than 1.5:1 on all bands, no tuner needed. Very stealth with no HOA (never asked for permission) or neighbor complaints for the last 13 years, and greatly reduced noise levels. Enjoying the hobby, and living where I want. No complaints with all the other CC&R regulations. You gotta do what you can with what you have to work with ;).

73,  Bob K7JQ

I think your approach with the screwdriver antennas, would be far better than building wires into your home construction.  Getting antennas out of your home is far better then the best of them in your home.
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73  James K0UA
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